With all this suffering, how could there be a God? | Tim Keller at Columbia University

Tim Keller responds to Prof. David Eisenbach's question about how Christianity deals with the problem of suffering. | Columbia University, 2008 | View full forum at • Reason for God? Belief... | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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[@notyobidness6218]

"I don't believe it's any easier to handle or face suffering by disbelieving in God" I can say I have found this to be true in my life

[@bradleymcdonald6273]

A thought that came to me today and then went from my head to my heart and got me good We ask "how could a loving God allow pain and suffering?" We say this, holding God to a higher standard than we ourselves are willing to live... We judge God with the VERY SAME JUDGMENT that deserves to fall upon us, and that is How could a "loving" human being allow pain and suffering How many times in my life have I had the power to stop pain and suffering that I cause others, yet I do not, and I go ahead and inflict it.. Or had the power to save or comfort those in need? To prevent further pain and suffering I remember when I was a kid, I was on a trampoline with my cousin and we were play fighting - we got a bit carried away and I kicked him in the head. He started to cry and what did I do to take the guilt away? I fell beside him and held my foot pretending to be in worse pain and said that his head had hurt my foot lol ... We learn at a young age how to point the finger at others 😂 We do the same... We think we hurt... Yet look at Jesus ... Look at God suffering for us... For the ones he loves and he gets nothing back, just pointing fingers I truly believe with all my heart that, if God was not loving... I would never have been born Talk about patience and long suffering

[@bradleymcdonald6273]

Pain and suffering can be a tricky topic but one thing I always think about is God gave us free will... To be free will, there has to be a freedom of choice and unfortunately evil and death were there to be chosen... We can say "but if God knew we would choose that, why would he allow it" ... Well if he didn't "allow it" then it wouldn't be free will... And then if he didn't give us free will, we would be mad because he didn't get us "free will", that he made us slaves and robots unable to "LIVE" to have life in ourselves - that we didn't have freedom!... Oh wait, if he didn't give us free will, we wouldn't have the freedom to be mad because we wouldn't even have a choice in that matter - We would just be code doing what it was programmed to do... Lol No matter what, it's in our sinful nature to find a way to point out a flaw in God to justify OUR behaviour ... to transfer the guilt onto him... Which praise God, he is so loving that he sent his only begotten son and allowed that guilt to transfer to him ... He has taken the finger pointing... For our sakes This world is a broken relationship - we have suffered because of our rejection of God. God suffered because of our rejection of him... And the only way it can be mended is through Jesus - it is there that we see ourselves for who we are and we see him for who he is We have inherited Adams nature - which is to run and Hide from God's presence - and to try and cover our guilt and shame by ourselves What we need is reconciliation Random bit It was only once I knew Jesus personally that I have understood wedding vows more clear now... I get it... I understand the love of God

[@cynic150]

So what?

[@sarahwilkinson4634]

I’d like to point out how comfortable Tim Keller is with saying, “I don’t know.” I see many other intellectuals out there either trying to gain an answer for everything, give the appearance that they do have an answer for everything, or have a problem with things they don’t have answers for. Tim Keller is at peace with not knowing everything.

[@mrmemyselfandi9609]

I was an atheist myself...Dawkins..Dennet..Harris ...Pinker.....and my personal favorite being Hitchens. I liked him immensely and even as a Christian I still watch his videos. I really dug the documentary he did with Douglas Wilson called Collision. Even HE admitted at the very end that the fact that the universe was made on a razors edge was the strongest evidence for a creator he'd seen. Having said that I agree with him, and I think I can come to God from a logical outworking of some basic arguments like the cosmological constant ...anthropic principle.....and that everything which begins to come into existence has a creator...and we know the universe began...which points to a higher power outside of space and time...JUST like Genesis says. Then you can use the biblical prophecies of Isaiah 53 which was written down 700 years beforehand to get to Jesus being who He claimed to be....just as some basic ideas. But more than that, I've had radical experiences with the demonic realm that changed me forever which made me a believer. And you'd be a believer too if you were ever in the presence of one yourself. Sometimes the devil will scream when God is quiet. I cannot prove it...and I admit this.....but I CAN say that I'm not special, so if you REALLY wanted that kind of force to witness itself to you...all you have to do is go looking for it purposely and you'll get what you're looking for. Then when you're a believer too and people ask you for evidence, you'll do exactly what I'm doing here...which is kinda throw your hands up and admit that not everything can be replicated in a petri dish. What's the smell of 3 o clock? That's how it is when people ask for proof of some things. It is what it is..and you can experience it, but you can't jar it. Anyway....that stuff is real, I pray you never have to find out just how real. Just stick with Jesus and God the father...you can't go wrong. Love God and your neighbor as yourself. That's true just on it's face.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

But there's one small problem, we actually have no way to confirm if the universe began. The Kalam Cosmological argument fails at its 2nd premise

[@semeionart]

I get what your saying here, I've had a similar experience, there's definitely better ways to come to faith. I still have these situational and coincidental "attacks" especially when I'm trying to strengthen my faith. There are still questions that put me off as well, like for instance....why did god create us knowing we would suffer when he could have made us perfect since he is all powerful. He can because he created Angel's who do nothing but praise god. How could an all powerful god allow sin to enter into his own kingdom(heaven, the fallen Angel's rebellion) and not stop satan from taking 1/3 of his angels. Why even make a tree of the knowledge of good and evil if an all knowing god could see that we would disobey and be tempted, why make a tree allowing for a fall in the first place....the only answer I've ever heard satisfies the question but doesn't really make me feel better.....its that god made you and do whatever he likes and what are you going to so about it....in that scenario we are just left with a malevolent creator who made us just to watch most of us fall, but why make it to watch when you know all anyway?

[@Smooth0vibrations]

God bless you brother and pray for me for I am a sinner before Christ everyday.

[@TheGuiltsOfUs]

NONSENSE

[@PolishBigfootCircle11]

You sound like the type of guy who needs to write a book.

[@kevinwhelan9607]

Jesus had skin in the game. That's one of the things I love about him, and that he loves me OF ALL PEOPLE. That's a real mystery. RIP Timothy Keller and read his book The Reason for God🎉

[@waynelawson1235]

1 Corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” King James Version (KJV)

[@Gpacharlie]

I think the best people to ask this question of are people who suffer chronically painful conditions and yet have increasing faith, increasing love for God and increasing love for others.

[@mashable8759]

Just like North Koreans still love their supreme leader

[@_yoshivolts_115]

​@@mashable8759I can assure you they do not, they are forced to say they do or else they're murdered

[@shankerr484]

'beyond the door, there's peace I'm sure And I know, there'll be no more Tears in heaven' - Eric Clapton

[@robertlight5227]

Keller evades the question, brilliantly.

[@robertlight5227]

@@Burninateit86 That IS the evasion.

[@robertlight5227]

@@Burninateit86 He has done the same evasion tactic in other videos. He can't answer honestly for it would reveal the ethical failure of his ideology. Sad.

[@robertlight5227]

@@Burninateit86 And check out his writings too. The Christers like to evade and even deny the 'problem of evil' problem for the real danger of exposing their ethical failure. It is called theodicy.

[@overtcovert]

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[@bula9737]

overtcovert idiot

[@SonofTolkien]

Fuckwit.

[@Golems_victory]

Wow nice fairytale story I wish it was true overcovert

[@myleskittleson2421]

overtcovert thank you for bringing some truth the this comment section. Here is some more. John 10:10 the thief (devil) comes only to still kill and destroy. I (Jesus) came that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

[@Ju.pianist]

Just AMAZED how Rev. Keller answers all those questions..

[@odiupickusclone-1526]

The only problem is that he has no answer to this problem!

[@kirkroyse7305]

You cant put limits on God.. his ways and thoughts so much bigger than we can even imagine

[@henrykater9728]

Well said Kirk. I find it amazing how people can ask how God would allow suffering when He himself came to earth and suffered and died on a cross for OUR sin. If we had a God who was indifferent to pain and suffering they could ask the question but as it is it is unjustified to accuse " the man of sorrows" of indifference to our suffering.

[@bobak5126]

I'm not impressed. The Ancient Book full of atrocities is the ONLY method he chose for communication? That doesn't take much thought. Also, Jesus could have written something, but alas, he wrote on sand which is long washed away. Why doesn't God have a website?

[@bobak5126]

@@henrykater9728 Why did Jesus had to die? Why couldn't this God just create a different morality and stop punishing us for what Adam and Eve did? And then, why did God himself force Israelites to kill their own people for working on a Saturday? Numbers 15: 32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses. Why kill the poor man for gathering wood on a Saturday? Jesus ignored Sabbath and acted like the Pharisees were insane to follow it so literally. If Jesus existed and suffered, then it's good for him. Tasting own medicine and such.

[@Josiahministries]

@ was it wrong for God to annihalate the cananites?

[@gagetaylor192]

So in other words just a fancy way of saying you don't know jack didley squat?

[@luvtoSingwithDad]

This was deep, but I thought it was a great answer to one of life's BIGGEST questions. We have ALL asked this question... What is all comes down to is, God loves us all, Jesus is proof of that... Jesus's life AND death AND resurrection... all proof of His love. The rest will be shown to us in His time...

[@luzer619]

I think God allows suffering for a very good reason. Let me offer a few analogies. Without quiet there is no loud. Without poor there is no rich. Without sadness there is no joy. How can we appreciate or begin to understand what God has given us, the promise of eternal life, without knowing death or fear or pain or sadness. I believe that it simply gives us context for the amazing gift we have been given.

[@bazilmonk]

Can you describe this "eternal life"? Is contrast required to give it context and foster appreciation? Or is there only one state that without context can't be described as better or worse?

[@mtfabian76]

luzer619 Im a Christian, and watch the horrible testimony of survivor of holocaust it made me me think where is God in those times and why He allows such horrible atrocities to happen, it's hard to find answers but I believe He gave me a word about it.. I focus on the word sufferings, Jesus suffer before He enter glory, God because of love to humanity did not spare His only begotten son allow him to suffer so by believing in Him we may enter also in His Glory, the apostle also endure suffering for their faith.. SUFFERING IS PART OF CHRISTIAN WALK.. The scripture speak Of David. A psalm. Psalms 21:4 The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it... This means a life of a being belongs to God He gave it and had the right to take it away from us. Like job said in the midst of His suffering , Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD Job 1:21 The holocaust victims suffers beating and die yet God look at it as commendable, I believe Jews that was killed is in heaven 1 Peter 2:20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

[@Cynsham]

The amazing gift of little girls dying of cancer, innocent bystanders getting massacred in Terror attacks committed by Theological terrorists, and innocent babies being born with life altering defects. What a fucking joke.

[@michaeljoseph8674]

Yeah the loss of 6 million jews puts it all in context so i can appreciate what one sicko freak can do due to his hatred of the jews. sorry but no I can think of many better ways to get a context of life that makes me appreciate it

[@souleater653]

well its btter than what a non belivr after life is because to u there is no after life its nothing

[@iankrukow4640]

To me, the absolutely logical answer is the free will. God loves us so much, that he lets us choose for ourselves, because otherwise our love for him would not have any value. And sadly, we are choosing the wrong things far too often, as individuals as well as the entire human race (suffering does NOT necessarily mean that you have made a wrong decision yourself!). That is the choice that Adam made, and we are continuing with it since that time.

[@andrewtsai777]

Do we have free will to disobey God in heaven?

[@dinaandrade522]

Man wants freedom from God. God is something that's disposable, something one can throw in the dirt in and that's exactly what man does. Finished! No more God! Then when things go wrong, something outrageous happens...man asks "Where was God?" or "where is God?" You threw God in the dirtbin! Remember! You had no need of him. He was made redundant!

[@chine62]

Dina Andrade Your post is both preposterous and pathetic at the same time. Honestly, if you’re asked by a kid or someone really seeking the truth why is there so much suffering in life is this the best you can do?

[@hanalane6865]

What so you're saying that God gave up on us because we gave up on him if so your God isn't good... 😂😂 if your son said I hate your fucking guts deleted you gave up on you for say 20 years or so and he randomly turned up that day and asked for your help and forgiveness I'm pretty sure that you'd forgive your son if so that makes you a better person then your God

[@hanalane6865]

@@debunkerofatheism6874 You don't need to religious to be moral. Do you realise people have sex in order to reproduce right? According to everyone that exists and is about to exist will have no morals? I'm sorry but that doesn't actually make any sense whatsoever, what you said. And if h.i.v is the only reason as to why you think that gay sex is bad. Then what do you think of fat people? Because obesity kills more people then smoking and h.i.v... And if suffering is the due to us sinning then why are their babies who are born suffering? If your God is punishing us because we don't believe have sex and lie then why would you even call god good... especially when your God is willing to except a rapist if he repents but not forgive an atheist for disbelieving..

[@goodvibezinChrist]

@@hanalane6865 Where in that paragraph did he claim that you have to be religious in order to to be moral? He said if you want God to listen "you have to be moral". In other words for those who want to actually seek a personal relationship with God and have your prayers answered you must be a Moral person first. Why would @Debunker of Atheism have to provide more than one reason for why gay sex is an immoral act? If HIV is heavily affecting the world and he stated it affects the gay community by 67% then clearly it shouldn't be done. I would add that it doesn't further humanity or cause humans to multiply and fill the Earth as God instructed. Especially, if you believe in Evolution and you worship the God of the universe then you are going against your religion by having sex with the same gender. In nature it is essential that we reproduce but that doesn't mean reproduce with every women/man we see. Being prudent shows you that. It's much more wise to reproduce with a soul mate who you took the time to get to know, get tested together and both remain loyal, cleaving to each other until death do it's part. What I have to say about obesity causing more death than smoking/drinking is some people are born with disadvantages, mutations and abnormalities that make it harder for them to function than the average person. This is a result of entropy and the laws of thermodynamics that states the the universe, material in general and even humans are winding down and degrading overtime, which is the opposite of evolving(or evolving for the better for that matter). However, although many obese people have it harder to lose the weight, which gives them severe weight complications, it isn't IMPOSSIBLE for them to lose the weight and maintain a good diet and eating regimen. It's a sin to deliberately destroy the temple! If those obese people adhered to the bible they would immediately work to lose the weight and better their unfortunate circumstances by strict dieting and exercising. Let's be honest the issue is the trash food they allow themselves to consume and lack of exercise. More people are dying from fast food and the success of high caloric intake from products of candy, chocolate, chips, cookies, Ice Cream, cake and other delicacies affecting health. Sugar, Salt, and High Fructose Corn Syrup are the real gangsters and we are slaves to what we consume. So yes we are sinners and I would put the blame on us for poor discretion and decision making! And it is only right to call God GOOD for punishing us for disobedience. I'm thankful my mom used to beat me when I was out of pocket and it made me the man I am today. If you made a world and created humans and set a purpose for them but they chose to ignore you and say you are a fairytale therefore sin is exceptional, then what would you do in response as a loving father? Spoil them everytime they commit a sin and go against your word? Reward them? We see what happens when fortunate parents reward their spoiled children instead of disciplining them when necessary and the results are consequential. They repeatedly disobey and remain obdurate or stubbornly persistent in wrong doing. So God stands corrected by allowing you to see the harshness of reality. Life is very real and if you put your hand in the fire you will get burned. It seems many people have to learn the hard way unfortunately! Also God will absolutely forgive you if YOU an atheist were to turn around and accept Jesus Christ and admit he is the son of the creator. He will forgive you because you don't know but once he's revealed himself to you (which I hope he hasn't because if he did and you decline him then he can no longer forgive you, nevertheless you have time to repent 😊) you can't say you don't know once he's revealed himself. He knows all! He's willing to forgive the murderer or rapist and that's because everyone should get a 2nd chance: which is Heaven. However, they will reap what they sow in this physical world. Don't think God doesn't punish them for their wicked deeds. At some point the laws of reciprocity will be in full effect and those rapists will pay for their sin(s) so don't worry about them but keep your faith in God and he'll never fail you I promise!

[@hanalane6865]

@@goodvibezinChrist life is all about reproducing every living organism needs to reproduces so that it can pass on its genes how ever we should be capt because we're destroying our atmosphere and our resources by overpopulating our planet we consume way to much and still your argument about gay sex is flawed if they wore condoms that would solve all their problems and over eating isn't classed as sin lol And you said that God is the most just and the most good if that's true then why the hell would he forgive a rapist or a pedophile for one it doesn't unrape the victim our justice system is considered more justifiable then your God and god can't be god if hell exists especially if he's only looking to punish those who disbelieve I would make far better god then your God because everyone would already be living without suffering Last but not the least if you want my opinion everyone was created by the big bang which was a natural phenomenon that randomly accured billions of years go which gave life to evolution by natural selection humanity isn't important as you think life's complex the dragonflies are the perfect example for evolution they have a life expectancy of 24 hours they shit eat reproduce and die humanity has a far more complex brain then any other living creature because of luck but all you have to do is compare us to animals and you'd see the similarities

[@frankribeiro399]

In case we are in this situation we better offer our suffering to God to ask for compassion.We will have a constant presence of the Lord in our mind.

[@DMatthewHenry]

I think the Bible does say why He hasn't stopped evil yet: 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. In order for God to stop all of this suffering He has to bring an end to the age of sin that we live in, and that means destroying sin, and with it sinners. But there are still those who will repent and accept Him. But a time is coming when there will be no more who will accept Him. It is not God's Will than anyone should be destroyed, but He has given us out own will. As long as there are some who will submit to His Will that we be saved, so be it. As soon as we will not, and we will destruction for ourselves, so be it as well.

[@semeionart]

But why this whole situation in the first place, basically it seems that all these hoops that had to be jumped through could have been avoided if god just didn't create or created a world where there was no need for the hoops...

[@milels6917]

The world should listen too this wonderful mind I could listen too him more than I do because life weighs us down but when I need my spiritual teacher he is the one I love who lifts my faith and makes intelligent sense Hope he and his family are keeping well as he said his cancer came back during lockdown Thanks Tim for your time and blogs

[@goranmilic442]

God has a reason to make us suffer? How can that be? If God is all-powerful, there is no rule above God that says God can achieve his goals only through suffering. Whatever God wants, he can do it in any way he wants to. So suffering only happens if god wants it. And if God is all-good, he would want to eliminate suffering.

[@theamalgamut8871]

​@@goranmilic442 Obviously. Only people with half a brain can ignore that. Or maybe it's god that is half brained.

[@jeremys3484]

I don't think there was enough time for Dr Keller to answer this question as thoroughly as he could have or the video just got cut off. But here's a more in-depth view of the problem of suffering... There are a few things to answer when forming the bigger response to question of "why does God allow suffering". The first thing to point out is that the very fact that suffering exists serves as huge evidence for God's existence and revelation. Because without an ultimate standard of morality (being God's nature), we have absolutely no moral foundation to call anything right or wrong. Or good or evil. According to the secular thinker (atheism) there is no god to serve as a 'law giver' if you will. While Christians appeal to the bible as their moral authority, atheism has nothing to appeal to. We can use the Holocaust as an example. Most people agree that the murder that took place during the Holocaust is absolutely wrong. Christians can say that it was wrong because each human is made in the likeness of God meaning that human life has value, meaning, and purpose and that we all have rights (Genesis 1:26). If atheism were true than everything that exists today is just a complete accident- a product of a series meaningless events. Humans are nothing but rearranged biochemicals that evolved into existence along with everything else. There would be no reason to think that we have anymore value than, say, a mouse or a tree. Or suppose that there was no creative mind to design our brain for the purpose of thinking. There would be no reason to think that "thought" exists. It's merely the chemical reactions in our brain that give us the sensation we call thought. We couldn't be held accountable for our actions because our brains are just obeying the laws of chemistry that produce an action- therefore, law and justice would be completely pointless. If atheism were true then human life has no more meaning, purpose, or value than an animal, a plant, or any inanimate object for that matter. A lot of atheists appeal to evolution as our basis for morality. But if that were the case that still wouldn't make anything objectively right or wrong. Just because a certain "moral" action gave us a certain survival value in the past would not make it absolutely "right". What makes the preservation of the human race ultimately the right thing to do according to atheism? One can rightfully say if atheism were true than Hitler would be right and perfectly justified in killing off the "weaker, less evolved" portion of humanity to 'further' the human race. But as we all feel, that isnt the case. His actions were evil. All this is NOT to say that atheists live immoral lives or dont believe in morality. When atheists appeal to any sort of morality, they are "stealing" the Christian worldview. Because even though atheists deny God, they still have to live in His universe.(John 1:1) The next part (and maybe biggest part) of the answer is good old freedom of action and thought; that God allows all of us to have free will. Clearly we live in a sinful fallen world from our choice to defy God. The reason God made us is to have eternal relationship with us which displays His glory (Colossians 1:16). Because forced love is pretty much rape God has to give us the free will to choose if we want love and follow Him or deny Him & go our own way. Therefore we have the ability to choose good or evil. That is why Adam and Eve had that choice and that is why we have the same choice today. Sin is the very thing that separates us from God and makes suffering probable. If God were to suddenly stop the Holocaust it would most likely result in Him going back on His promise since WWII was purely because of man's depravity in sinful nature. From this we can conclude that God values our free will over our temporary earthly happiness (1 John 2:15-17)... which leads us into my next point. The third part of the answer of why God could allow suffering could be that the ultimate purpose to life is NOT necessarily earthly contentment, but rather the knowledge of God (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). Only the knowledge of the gospel can bring eternal salvation to people, which in turn brings everlasting life, joy, peace, and happiness (1 Peter 1:8). But sometimes the knowledge of God can only be brought through what we consider as trials and suffering. Many examples of this can be given but the most classic one is the life the apostle Paul documented in the New Testament. He spent most of his Christian life in tremendous suffering for the sake of the gospel yet he had overwhelming thankfulness and praise to God for using him to bring many people to the knowledge of the gospel before he was executed in Rome (Philippians 3: 8-9) . We will be dead for a lot longer than we have been alive. Our short lives here on earth is just a blink compared to eternity (2 Peter 3:8) Whether we spend it in relationship with God or under His wrath against sin depends on how we lived our lives and if we put our faith in Jesus Christ before its too late. If it takes a full earthly life of suffering to bring about the better good of eternal life, one can think it very worthy deal (Romans 1:16) Then finally, we often look at suffering and see only how terrible it presently is and assume that no good could possibly come from it. It may look just look like pointless, unnecessary agony. While this may seem to be the case to our very limited knowledge, God has a much wider scope of wisdom. He is omniscient (all knowing), eternal (without beginning or end), omnipresent (exists everywhere) and sovereign (not forced to act). These are some of His attributes that allow him to be beyond time, space, and outside influence to allow for suffering at this time to allow for a greater outcome in the future. As finite persons, we're not in any position to say that it's improbable that God lacks good reasons for permitting suffering in the world because He knows everything! All knowledge of the universe, the beginning of history to the end of time, every thought, every decision we make, every decision we do not make and the infinite outcomes that could have come to pass is no mystery to God. Every event that occurs sends a ripple effect through history, such that God's reason for permitting it might not emerge until centuries later in a completely different part of the world. Some short-term good might actually lead to untold misery, while some action that looks disastrous right now may bring about the greatest good. That is why, even in the midst of suffering, we need to trust in the Lord with all our hearts and lean not on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6). If God doesn't exist, then suffering may be painful, but it isn't bad in a moral sense. Why then are atheists even aware that tragic events are bad? But that just loops back up to my first premise. So clearly the Christian worldview can makes sense of pain and suffering. Even though that's true, it doesn't make the anguish under suffering go away because the pain if still very real. The bible, however, offers hope for it. It tells us that God is not some distant uncaring being, but a loving Father who personally shares our hurts with us. As a matter of fact, He also is very accustomed to suffering himself. On the cross Christ endured a suffering beyond all understanding; He bore the punishment for the sins of the entire world. A suffering that isn’t comprehensible to any of us. Though he was completely innocent, He voluntarily underwent unfathomable suffering because of His crazy love for us -that we may have a way out of God's wrath against sin and a way to eternal life. Christ lived a life we should have lived and died a death we should have died. How can we reject Him who gave up everything for us? We are totally undeserving of this gift of forgiveness (Romans 3:23). It is totally by God's grace alone. (Ephesians 2:8-9). Because He so loved the World he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life! (John 3:16) And it is up to us individually if we accept God’s grace or reject Him.

[@cclemonb1222]

Advice: Paragraphs.

[@jeremys3484]

+cclemonb1222 Ha, my bad. How's that?

[@alphaomega6497]

Best most complete answer I’ve read in regards to this topic. No offence but is this from a book ?

[@BrickaTree]

Best answer ive read in a while.

[@amyim2002]

Best answer!

[@rockylove3882]

God gives us free will

[@danasmith1165]

Unbelievers only want to talk about God when they want to blame Him for something or claim He does not exist. God has suffered MUCH More than Any human.

[@amg726]

I don't blame someone who I don't believe exists. I just can't stand when theists try to force their beliefs and theocracies on other people and make outlandish claims that they can't back up. You people try to force others to believe as you do, by "threatening" them with the "eternal damnation" nonsense, even little children. Why would you even worship a god who would burn your children in hell for eternity if they decide not to believe? You people are unbelievable.

[@danasmith1165]

Theresa 410 believe as you wish but when you land in hell, there will be No Way out. You can do Nothing to change truth ! Nothing.

[@amg726]

@@danasmith1165 Yeah, there's the "threat". "Believe as I do or burn in hell". Sure is a LOT of LOVE there with this god you believe in. "Love me and believe in me or burn and be tortured for eternity." If a human parent told this to his/her child, it would be considered child abuse. So....believe what YOU want. I just hope you're not telling this to your kids if you have any.

[@danasmith1165]

robert mitchell keep LAYING. You are sooo good at it. You can NEVER change truth ! Now, DON'T BOTHER me with Utter NONSENSE !#

[@Ashoerchen]

Dana, I'm under the impression that you obtained your knowledge on unbelievers from a televangelist. Unbelievers do not blame god for anything. They never have been provided with evidence of his existence in the first place. How could they, then, possibly blame him for anything? Or how can it be conceivable for them that he has done anything, e.g. suffering?

[@jamesmitchell3496]

HE GIVES. PEOPLE FREE WILL

[@margaretbarrett6087]

James Mitchell So is there free will in heaven? If so, the inhabitants will have to be permanently on guard lest they slip up and are evicted. What a fun way to spend eternity

[@poserp]

I think God has given us all sorts of means to help alleviate suffering, and it is our responsibility to use them. Think of all the advances in science, technology, understanding of human nature... These are gifts, IMO, from God, and it is our responsibility to use them to help others. We are the ones who can act to do something about the general human condition, and God will continue to provide various means to assist in our efforts. Hence those of us who are religious have a doubly-important duty to serve and stop evil and suffering to the best of our abilities.

[@Ashoerchen]

Let's accept for a moment that all these strenuous explanations, of why god allows this suffering in the world are true. No matter how revolting this might appear in the face of your most human instincts. Let's simply accept it. But how, then, is this god distinguishable from one that does not exist at all?

[@esauponce9759]

Tim Keller actually makes the point: the truth of the Gospel of Christ can make us see the difference between an inexistent god (or a god who is indifferent to suffering and evil) and the one true God who actually cares about suffering and evil. If Jesus rose from the dead, then the Gospel is true (and Christianity is true), and that gives a reason to know that God is not indifferent to the suffering of the world. The historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is worthy of being discussed in this topic, actually.

[@Ashoerchen]

@@esauponce9759 That's what I meant with strenuous. This is a fairly outdated and unambitious argument to help the believer wriggle out of his or her burden of proof. It's an attempt at wholesale whitewash. If Jesus really rose from the dead that would be proof that Jesus rose from the dead. It would not be proof of anything else, such as the truthfulness of the bible, or of Christianity as a whole. That would have to be proven separately, based on non-biblical evidence, for each and every supernatural claim made. And by no means an event that allegedly took place 2000 years ago can help distinguishing a god that allows the most egregious suffering to the most innocent people from a god that does not exist, everyday, over and over again.

[@esauponce9759]

No, please do not misunderstand the point (I'll try to elaborate on this so to make myself clear): As Tim Keller explained in the video, from the minute 4:00 to the end of it (I'll paraphrase it), even if Jesus truly came to this earth to suffer in our behalf and then rose from the dead, that alone *doesn't* explain what reasons may God have to permit evil in the world, but it *does* explain what the reason *isn't*. It *can't* be a lack of love, or remoteness or indifference (if He really came). Let me tell you something: I think Tim Keller's brief response in this video was the first response I heard that actually puts it in that way. I see his response as very prudent, and yes, it's a very short answer to a big question, but he said many interesting things in those few minutes, especially that point about knowing that the reason God would permit evil can't be lack of love or indifference, *if* Christianity is true. And before going on to the thing of what we mean and what implications follow when we say "if Christianity is true", I want to clarify that there are also many positive responses out there to the problems of evil, which are worthy of reading. Have you read some of them? I would like to know (if you can give me the name of the author, or blog, etc. it would be great. If not, don't worry). Ok, so now I would like to clarify what do we mean when we say "if Christianity is true": The core belief of Christianity is the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the resurrection is the thing that supports it. If the resurrection is false, then Jesus was not who he claimed to be and the Christian belief is a delusion. If he did rise from the dead, then Christianity is true. There's no need to prove that the Bible itself is the word of God to say that Christianity is true. The one thing that can do the job is showing historical evidence for the conclusion that Jesus did rise from the dead, with a great level of probability. And if he did rise from the dead, that can give us a good and sufficient reason to think that Christianity is true. The implications of it being true would be many: Jesus is who he said he was; death is not the end; we can be forgiven and have fellowship with God; we can trust in Him even in the worst suffering, and trust that He will make all things new; it shows that God himself took a human nature to come and save us from our misery, and more. The implications of Christianity being false are many too (I mentioned one above). So here's the thing: given that one of the points of the problems of evil is that God's character is questioned (and then it's deduced that probably he doesn't exist), the resurrection of Jesus can be counter evidence to that case, so that the probability of the claim "God probably doesn't exist" can be far lower after taking into account the resurrection of Jesus (which opens the gate to the possibility of the fact that even though God may permit various suffering, he can't be permitting it out of indifferencee to the world). On top of that, we *can't* forget the positive responses to the problems of evil, which deal with what reasons may God have to permit evil and suffering. We have to take into account that as well. So (sorry for going too long with this comment), I see it as a cumulative case against the problems of evil. We can also add arguments for the existence of a divine being which can also be taken into account when trying to draw conclusions (based on probability) from the arguments from evil. Finally, I would share the evidence of the resurrection (but first, the evidence for the historical reliability of the New Testament). So the first link is a series by Michael Jones defending the reliability of the NT and the second link is a series assessing the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus: 1) The reliability of the New Testament: m.kzbin.info/aero/PL1mr9ZTZb3TW70EEo4e2onJ4lq1QYSzrY 2) The resurrection of Jesus m.kzbin.info/aero/PL1mr9ZTZb3TUYymBPce08oyuhnHLLkR_B

[@Ashoerchen]

@@esauponce9759 Sorry, I will not watch any new videos on the truth of Christianity, the Bible or just the resurrection of Jesus. I've had just too many of them, and they all boiled down to a) arguments from ignorance (I can't explain this, therefore god) , or b) circular reasoning (the Bible is true because said so) , or c) incoherences and logical gaps (if Jesus did this or that, that proves God exists - how so?) , or d) bland or bold assertions without the trace of evidence, including personal experience, or e) confirmation bias. These arguments are again and again repeated, to the extent that I am no longer willing to spend more time on them than I already have. I do not expect them to present anything new to me anymore. Although this is only an auxiliary argument, it might be worth while considering why none of these videos ever found any attention, let alone acknowledgement, outside of believers' bubbles. And that you find similar videos, made with the same deep passion, and the same inconsistencies, on the truth of the teachings of Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna or Quetzalcoatl. The reasons presented by you are partly type c and partly type d, with a pinch of unambitious sophistry added (Keller telling us what the reason *isn't* - I'd be happy to give you 100 arguments that are *not* the reason). If god existed, one thing would be certain: that he has no love for mankind. If he existed, he either can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or he does not care to. god, therefore, is either impotent or evil - (quote from Sam Harris you might be familiar with). It does not really matter how many theological twists you make between these atrocities happening to the most innocent and vulnerable persons on the one side, and the question what god's position is in that context on the other. At the end of the day, Christianity has to admit that god has no hand in these things to happen, and that the hapless victims are left to their own devices to deal with them. If god's love is of the kind that allows these things to happen, then this love is not discernible from one that does not exist, or from one that will allow and condone even worse and even more insane acts of cruelty, and then that god is not discernible either from one that does not exist. It's a worthless god.

[@asong3366]

Powerful argument from the pastor

[@comali2212]

Sometimes people forget that there's also the powers of darkness on the move as well, can't blame God for the works of the evil one which having a bond and an alliance with a lot of humans, especially the one in power.

[@justingichohi470]

Isaiah 45:7, why can't you blame God?

[@matthewmorgan2763]

When we say "I can't think of a reason why God would allow suffering", we mean "I can't think of a way suffering could happen without God either being malevolent or non existent. But those explanations aren't acceptable if you want to maintain your belief in a loving God.

[@yeshuman668]

+Matthew Morgan Why so many Christians cannot answer this question ? In fact, of all the world scriptures only in Bible we read God came to world to love us but no where his intention was to keep us free from suffering and dying. Sounds contradicting ? Loving God lets people suffer ? Think deeper here. Love does not exist without freedom. Most important for God is to offer freedom/grace. Suffering, natural disasters do happen as natural events, God just cannot stop them, had He not himself restrained, the very freedom would have been at stake and so His love. His grace was magnificently demonstrated in the crucifixion, God could not save his own son, he let th evil had a hay day on that Friday. Without freedom all of us would be just robots. God is not a Santa clause or a miracle worker as many believe.

[@goranmilic442]

@@yeshuman668 God has a reason to make us suffer? How can that be? If God is all-powerful, there is no rule above God that says God can achieve his goals only through suffering. Whatever God wants, he can do it in any way he wants to. So suffering only happens if god wants it. And if God is all-good, he would want to eliminate suffering.

[@strongheart7371]

The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) When we think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

[@jk1735able]

God made Satan as an excuse.he could stop Satan from doing evil anytime he wants

[@percival5207]

Phenomenal Pastor Keller

[@AJTramberg]

I've never understood why this question is such a conundrum for some people. Its really quite simple in Christian theology....which tells us that Jesus came to save us.....but save us from what? If God didn't allow evil or suffering, then there would be no sin, and no reason for mankind to need saving. This gets to the very heart of theology. God gave man free will. Man sinned. The wages of sin is death. People that died in the holocaust were sinners just like everyone else. All of mankind is cursed and will die. Now obviously not everyone believes that, but the Bible is remarkably clear about this. www.gotquestions.org/parable-fig-tree.html

[@Leshkaka1]

+Aaron Frampton Surely Jesus is saving you from himself?

[@matthewmorgan2763]

So God just needed to save people? And so he gave us free will with the full knowledge that we would sin, which of course makes us deserving of endless torture in a pit of fire, so he could one day save a few of us and satiate his NEED to save?

[@yeshuman668]

+Aaron Frampton Why so many Christians cannot answer this question ? In fact, of all the world scriptures only in Bible we read God came to world to love us but no where his intention was to keep us free from suffering and dying. Sounds contradicting ? Loving God lets people suffer ? Think deeper here. Love does not exist without freedom. Most important for God is to offer freedom/grace. Suffering, natural disasters do happen as natural events, God just cannot stop them, had He not himself restrained, the very freedom would have been at stake and so His love. His grace was magnificently demonstrated in the crucifixion, God could not save his own son, he let th evil had a hay day on that Friday. Without freedom all of us would be just robots. God is not a Santa clause or a miracle worker as many believe.

[@brasstacks7181]

It is not that easy. You may think you have explained evil and suffering by saying we're all sinners but explain why babies die at birth or after birth. Why children suffer. Children are not sinners. They are the pure and innocent. And why does God allow disease and famine and sacrifice people as victims? Why is life unfair? Why are some people born into favorable circumstances, while others are not. Why do some people get everything handed to them on a silver platter, while others have to fight tooth and nail just to survive? Yes, we all die. That is the ONLY guarantee in life BUT if we are all sinners then why make this life so unfair. Whats with the unfairness if we are all equal sinners? What is the purpose of the poor having to watch the rich live a life they can only hope to enjoy as much? What is the purpose of putting some people on earth to suffer, while others have it all? Can't say the people thriving are bad or the people suffering are good. I was raised catholic but turned my back on this and ALL religion when I realized that there are no answers that make any logical sense. I then went on to believe in God, a creator but now in my 50's I am right back to questioning everything I ever put my faith into. I have seen far too much suffering and unfairness in my life to just accept an answer such as yours or even a non-answer such as the christian in this video.

[@HamishandIsmael]

Without challenges, struggles, or hardships, there would be nothing to strive for, overcome, or grow from. Joy, success, and happiness often derive their value because they are contrasted with pain and adversity. Without suffering, life could feel monotonous, as there would be no emotional highs and lows to shape our experiences and give us purpose. It's not that suffering itself is desirable, but its existence helps define and enrich our human experience. Because God allowed suffering, so must be a purpose behind our existence, and our deeds matter.

[@Tiger_Woods]

ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO DO BAD

[@danasmith1165]

Tiger Woods -- God Is Perfect.

[@RAWALITY]

Why does God get to be immune from evil and why are we subject to it?

[@smilegodlovesu81]

Our God so great that He can’t be put in our box. We must be careful to not just make our small understandings who God is. He has infinite understanding and knows all things. Let us never forget how much good we have seen that has come out of suffering. Community is coming together gods people loving one another in more intense ways and so on. Suffering sometimes appears as a mystery to us. But there is one truth here that we know God doesn’t abandon his people. He never abandons mankind Even though we turn our back on Him.

[@scotte4765]

*Our God so great that He can’t be put in our box.* Except for when Christians describe him with understandable traits like being compassionate or just. Then boxes are fine, I guess. *Let us never forget how much good we have seen that has come out of suffering.* So God isn't smart enough or powerful enough to make that same good happen without needing someone to suffer first? *God doesn’t abandon his people. He never abandons mankind Even though we turn our back on Him.* So he doesn't abandon our whole species, just many individual victims of war, rape, child abuse, cancer, famine, and hurricanes. Right. All these are worn-out Christian platitudes that still aren't convincing.

[@goranmilic442]

@@scotte4765 Exactly. They'll say God is good when good things happen. When bad things happen, then God cannot be explained.

[@devonta28thKY]

This was the best no answer ever!

[@augustinemukendwa5143]

I REALLY NEED SUCH A RESPONSE

[@agapephilerostorge]

Please get somebody else to handle the camera next time. PLEASE!!!

[@mixnbake5411]

If that's bothering you, you might want to just listen to them speaking. You might try that next time.

[@berts558]

It's really pretty simple it's the Integrity of his gift of free will to us that keeps him from intervening

[@DurffMan]

God didn't intervene in the holocaust because that would've violated the law of free will for us as human beings. What would free will be if god stopped us every time we did something bad? He didn't program us, like robots, to love him. It wouldn't even be real love if we didn't have a choice. Now he gave us a choice, either chose him and accept his gift of salvation through Christ Jesus and repent, or don't. What isnt of God is evil, and evil is the absence of God, a violation of purpose. God knew from the beginning we would chose sin which is why he set forth his plan to come down and bear the wages of sin on himself, for us. All we gotta do is chose him and accept his gift of salvation.

[@acdc1forever]

Lol Tim Keller is a Calvinist so he doesn't believe in Free-Will :P

[@Kevin15047]

That didn't stop him in Egypt. He did it once, why not then.

[@matthewmorgan2763]

God actually has no problem messing with Pharaoh's free will in exodus, when he hardens his heart, or in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 when God "sends them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie."

[@blakelwhitney]

Re-read Pharaoh and the delusion passage. They aren't without choice earlier. They had ample opportunities. Hardening is always being given opportunities. All with the goal to cause them to repent.

[@danasmith1165]

Matthew Morgan God hardened his heart After Pharaoh's repeated Choices to reject God. God just let the hardening be solidified. If you reject God repeatedly, He will solidify it cause that is what you repeatedly asked for. You were made in Gods image. If you think you can exist beyond His realm, you are utterly deceived. You CANNOT change the fact that you were made in His image. You can only accept Truth or reject it.

[@kyannatabak8108]

Free will! That's why God doesn't stop us ! He loves us so much that he won't force us to stop.

[@Theo6805]

If God, why evil? Well to help people understand that their question is self-defeating, we have to go to Genesis 1: 26 And God said: "Let Us make man in Our own image and let them have dominion..." So God took dirt, and made flesh of it, and shaped it, and molded it, and breathed the breath of life into it. The spirit of man comes from the breath of God. The Hebrew word for man is “ish”, and the Hebrew word for spirit is “ruach” pronounced “roo’-akh”, and the Hebrew word for dirt is adamah pronounced “ad-aw-maw”. This is where Adam gets his name from, the first man, from dirt. Dominion means to have supremacy, authority, rule, this is what God intended for us to have. To understand that text, we have to understand just how faithful and true God is to His own Word, when God says something, it automatically becomes law. When He said "let them have dominion..." this is what He meant: let them, who are spirit beings, in a dirt suit (flesh), be the rulers over the all the earth and it's resources. He, God, made Himself illegal on Earth, because God is spirit, the Great Spirit, without a body. So God literally had His hands tied, He couldn't/cannot go against His own word. He gave US dominion, you and I, human beings, we are the rulers of this planet, but....we lost the earth to Satan, the day Adam and Eve let themselves be deceived by Satan. Remember when God said "...in the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die..." God wasn't talking to Adam the flesh, He was talking to Adam the spirit. So your next question might be: So what? If God is all powerful and almighty, why can't He just go against His own law, and save us? Well be careful now, because if you want God to go against His own word and break His own laws, how could you trust Him? What would that do to His credibility?? So, God HAD to let Adam and Eve be tempted by Satan, He HAD to “stand by” and watch His creation fall, and He HAD to let them make the choice themselves, to fall for Satan's lie, or believe God. If God had interfered, He would have violated His own Word when He said that He would create us in His image, which entails having free will to choose for ourselves, otherwise we would be nothing more than autonomous beings like robots designed and created to follow God's orders, this is to say that, God had a choice to make, create robots programmed to follow His every instruction to the letter, which would not be in His image, or create human beings with a will and a choice to rebel against Him and His ordinances, and that, was the only option He had wherein we as humans have a choice to love Him and keep His ordinances. Keep that in mind. Now Adam was faced with the easiest choice in the world, but he was lied to, by Satan, that should they eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they "...will not surely die", and that they would become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil. That was the lie, it's a lie because they were already like God, sinless, blameless and Holy. Adam and Eve, as we all know, ate of the fruit, and immediately, they died, spiritually, their spirit men, that God Himself breathed into their bodies, died. But in the flesh, they lived on, for 100's of years at that, but they were spiritually dead, their children were born spiritually dead. Keep that in mind I'm taking you somewhere. Now, Satan deceived Adam and Eve, caused them to trip and fall short of the glory of God, God, being all loving, makes clothes for Adam and Eve (think about that: the first creature to be killed on Earth, maybe a goat or a lamb, was killed by God) so they wouldn't feel ashamed because they now know that they have been naked all this time. And God says to Satan: Genesis 3:14-15 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” So let's break THAT down: God curses the serpent to crawl on its belly and eat dust for all of its days, God did this because the serpent would, from that day on, be a reminder to man of the day he fell short of the glory God, every time man would see a snake he would remember the day he was deceived by an animal over which he was meant to have dominion. Verse 15 is where God speaks not to the serpent, but to Satan who inhabited the body of the serpent, because if you recall spirits are illegal on earth, any spirit without a body is illegal, so Satan used the fleshly body of the serpent to conduct his business with Eve. So God says to Satan that He will put enmity between him and the woman, and between the seed of the woman and his seed, He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel, this is very important to understand, it all ties into the reality of society today. What’s important here is God says that “He will crush your head…”, to understand that we have to understand what “head” meant back in those days, which is authority, principalities or dominion. Then we have to look at “heel”, back then when a baby was born, the physician, or “Dr.”, would hold the baby upside down by its heel, the baby would start crying, then everyone would know that the baby is alive, so essentially the heel was associated with life. So “He will crush your head, and you shall bruise His heel” is a prophecy by our Most High God: “You Satan, will kill Him, but only for a little while, but He will crush your principalities and authority and take back this world that you have stolen by deceiving the people whom I have given this world to.” This “He” that God was referring to is Jesus Christ, Jesus the man being the dirt suit, and Jesus the Christ being God Himself inhabiting the fleshly body of Jesus the man. Basically God said to Satan: “OK Satan, I see what you did there, that was clever, but I have one better, I will come down to earth LEGALLY, and set the record straight for my people and My name’s sake.” Now just to quickly go back to the creation, notice that God always creates the environment before creating the being that will inhabit it, He created the seas then He created the fish, He created the land then He created the animals. The Garden of Eden represents the presence of God, that was the environment He placed Adam in, His presence. Now what happens to a plant if you remove it from the ground? It malfunctions and dies, what happens to a fish when you remove it from the water? It malfunctions and dies, what happens when you remove man from the presence of God? He goes crazy and kills people. So I ask you, who is responsible for all the evil in the world? Satan? Nope, he has been defeated for our sakes, Satan’s demons? Nope, they have no power over us, we have been given the authority of Christ Jesus and He assured us that we have the victory. Give this some thought; where are you going when you die? Where do you want to go? I want you to really think about it, let’s say for argument’s sake that God does exist, Heaven and hell really do exist, which one do you want to go to? It is after all your choice, where do you want to spend eternity? Don’t think that you’re not ready, no one ever is, the time for salvation is now, not an hour from now, or tomorrow, it’s right now, forget about the person next to you, this is about you, not them, this is your life not theirs, I know you’re feeling a struggle on the inside, that’s normal, that’s your dead spirit yearning to be alive, to be born again. If you want a life that’s everlasting, the time is now, make that choice for yourself, ask God to come into your life and revive you. Ask Him to restore to you everything this world has taken from you, purpose, focus, the will to live, all of it, God can give it back to you and much more. Say this prayer with me: Father in heaven, I know that I am a sinner, I know that I have fallen short of your glory, I know that I cannot make it on my own, therefore I ask you to come into my life and revive my spirit, I ask you to forgive me of my sins, I believe in my heart that you sent your only begotten Son to die for my sins and that You raised Him from the dead on the 3rd day, and I confess with my mouth that He is Lord and my Savior. I thank you Father, I receive my forgiveness, I am now your child, a new creation in the name of Jesus, fill me with Your Holy Spirit, I am set free. I am going to follow You, forever and ever, in the name of Jesus, Amen.

[@sheldon2554]

I read half, was good, couldnt understand so I skipped and said the prayer.

[@Theo6805]

@@sheldon2554 would you mind telling me which part confused you? Maybe I should word my answer better....

[@sheldon2554]

@@Theo6805 i just read it the last part was great, but i wish i could explain to someone the way u did, I want to be strong and stand for myself, and help others around me, but i am drowning in Religion i think at times, cause i don't know much about the Bible, had been changing churches since i was a teen, now i just pray at home. No fellowship nothing. I want to take This bible seriously but its beyond my understanding.

[@Theo6805]

@@sheldon2554 here's my email address: [e-mail], I want to help you where I can, and one thing we should always remember is that Jesus did not die so that we may have a religion, He died so that we may have a relationship with Him. Email me and we can chat.

[@theresabass6066]

Theodore Jacobs If Adam and Eve were already like God, what were they deceived about. They could have just told Satan they were already like God. If Satan is not responsible for the evil in the world who are the principalities and rulers of darkness? And why do we need the armor of God?

[@Rkisosondi]

Reading about the horrific abuse Isaiah Torres suffered and I’m struggling with this. I don’t understand why God would allow a 6 year old child to suffer like he did

yeah cool, but why does god put bone cancer in children?

[@LankyKong-b7d]

Martin Stu because god is cruel

[@4dchess-Eri]

One of the best answers I have received. This video.

[@goranmilic442]

How is this a good answer? He never explained anything about why would God allow suffering. he just completely avoided question and spoke about atheists.

[@4dchess-Eri]

@@goranmilic442 Yahushuwa also suffered. It is not like Yahweh is sitting there watching people suffer. Part og himself joined the suffering, because thw word became a flesh. Before such debate however, you need to tell us if there is a Creator or not. If there is no creator then why are you blaming the creator that does not exist?

[@goranmilic442]

@@4dchess-Eri Just because he (supposedly) suffered doesn't mean he doesn't have to end suffering. If he is all-good and all-powerful, then he needs to make good things all the time, not just once. Your other question - I disagree. When we debate does a benevolent creator exists, part of that debate is to see suffering on Earth, which makes us believe there is no benevolent creator. Suffering is showing us that.

[@4dchess-Eri]

@@goranmilic442 What is the purpose of this question then??? Why ask 'why is god allowing suffering' ?What is the reason to ask 'why is the dog attacking me?' when your job is to defend yourself from the dog attacking you first then ask why dogs attack. Evil does exist and Creator does exist. Proper question is how do we deal with it - in my opinion anyway.

[@goranmilic442]

@@4dchess-Eri I never asked "why is God allowing suffering"? My question was "why would God allow suffering". So in my question there was never implication that God actually exists. Proper full version of my question would be "if benevolent God exists, how can there be suffering".

[@gonz95m]

Keller is a master mind! I have faith in my God jesus too.

[@goranmilic442]

God has a reason to make us suffer? How can that be? If God is all-powerful, there is no rule above God that says God can achieve his goals only through suffering. Whatever God wants, he can do it in any way he wants to. So suffering only happens if god wants it. And if God is all-good, he would want to eliminate suffering.

[@gonz95m]

@@goranmilic442 who are you to question God's work? Our human minds can't comprehend it. It's like asking why am I alive today?

[@goranmilic442]

@@gonz95m But you do agree that God can do anything he wants and he doesn't have to obey any rule? Do you agree with that? If yes, if God can do anything, then suffering can be avoided if God wants to. Do you agree that suffering can be avoided if God wants to, since he's all-powerful? That would mean suffering exists because God wants it that way. Nothing exists without God' will. After all, if humans cannot comprehend God, then humans cannot know that God is good or what holy book is correct. if you say real God is God that offers salvation (Christian God), then I can say who are you to question God and say he needs to give us salvation.

[@gonz95m]

@@goranmilic442 look brother God is good because he died for us on the cross so that we could be saved and be able to go with him after life. It's good that you have questions because you are searching for something missing in your life. Build a relationship with Jesus Christ and you will get your answers maybe not the questions a typical human mind has to ask but more fulfilling then you can imagine.

[@gonz95m]

@@goranmilic442 I pray for you brother that you receive the holly spirit tonight where ever you are Amen.

[@johnnafunkhouser5999]

Brilliant answer. Absolutely on point. God has to deal with us and in doing so we are seeing the results of his striving to save his creation. Jesus was about saving Humanity and infrastructure. He did get the job done. Believing that is key. Accept eternal life now.

[@yeshuman668]

+Johnna Zwernemann Why so many Christians cannot answer this question ? In fact, of all the world scriptures only in Bible we read God came to world to love us but no where his intention was to keep us free from suffering and dying. Sounds contradicting ? Loving God lets people suffer ? Think deeper here. Love does not exist without freedom. Most important for God is to offer freedom/grace. Suffering, natural disasters do happen as natural events, God just cannot stop them, had He not himself restrained, the very freedom would have been at stake and so His love. His grace was magnificently demonstrated in the crucifixion, God could not save his own son, he let th evil had a hay day on that Friday. Without freedom all of us would be just robots. God is not a Santa clause or a miracle worker as many believe.

[@b.goodfellow465]

A cats broken leg will be as painful as an human with a broken leg!

[@damianedwards2327]

God is the existence of Love. We all believe in Love. To degrade that comes consequences.

[@jeishyelka]

No answer to a direct question

[@Elijah-sz6qx]

Do you have the answer?

[@janicebriggs5524]

Plain and simple. Because of SIN in the world. The whole scenario is going to have to play itself out according to the prophecies in the Bible. The Word of God says we will have trials and tribulations in this world (John 16:33). Matt 27:25 says "then answered all the people, His Blood be on us and our children". Hence the Holocaust and everything else, the Jewish Nation goes through. They chose Barabbas over Jesus to be Crucified, but Jesus mission was to die for the Sins of the world. Everybody born into this world is a Sinner. Jesus is the Only One Who did not Sin. That's why He could shed His Blood for us.

[@maxodin557]

so God has the power to stop all the suffering on earth, he comes down to earth to suffer with us and then goes back to heaven and still leaves behind suffering.. how is that love?

[@amg726]

Yes, he sacrificed himself, TO himself, and the world still sucks. AND, it happened over a weekend. People have suffered WAY more than that and for a lot longer.

[@user-ow9uh2lp8c]

Have you read the two greatest commandments? Love your God and thy neighbours. If ppl wouldn't have been selfish and instead love one another the suffering could be lessen.

[@maxodin557]

@@user-ow9uh2lp8c but we are his creation, he created us with all the vile things that come with being human.. If he is all powerful and all loving how does he allow people to suffer like this..

[@amg726]

@@maxodin557 Exactly. Let's say there is this God. He creates mankind, knowing exactly what "Adam and Eve" will do. It's like a set-up. Plus, would any of us punish our children for a lifetime for screwing up once? And punishing their offspring on down the line for generations to come, because of this one act of disobedience? He lets babies die in horrible ways because of it? None of it makes any sense and it's monstrous if true.

[@theresabass6066]

Kyle Combrink It's self destruction, not God destruction. Mankind: " Lovers of them selves instead of lovers of God. Man living his own way and ignoring God, his creator. Yet man wants to blame God for the mess he created himself. God is not the cause of evil, man is.

[@TiktokFAFO]

The pastor sure says a lot without saying absolutely nothing. He is good at flipping all over the place and not answering a question.

[@goranmilic442]

God has a reason to make us suffer? How can that be? If God is all-powerful, there is no rule above God that says God can achieve his goals only through suffering. Whatever God wants, he can do it in any way he wants to. So suffering only happens if god wants it. And if God is all-good, he would want to eliminate suffering.

[@stephenlesliebrown5959]

Mr. Keller's statement of silence being the best Christian response to grief was spot on. But his excuses for God permitting the Holocaust were completely unconvincing.

[@overtcovert]

He is preparing us for ETERNAL LIFE. Read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. Ask Him to show you the Truth and His Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL Truth! The Wisdom of man is foolishness to God.

[@matthewmorgan2763]

So if I were to agree with you and think that you're wise, wouldn't that make you a fool in god's eyes then?

[@Cynsham]

Show me some quantifiable evidence of this happening, and maybe I'll believe the Ideological Diarrhea that you're spewing.

[@xavierpolanco5989]

So you're an idiot because Gods opinion is the only one that matters and yours is irrelevant? That doesn't sound like a very kind and loving God. A God that doesn't care about the opinions of his people is cold, indifferent and self-centered. Only someone who is stupid, selfish, and have a twisted sense of morality could let something like the Holocaust happen, and that's a fact no matter what some fictional divine being has to say about it.

[@brandonlai1651]

Overtcovert why do I have to believe in the bible

[@danasmith1165]

GodPleaseBring HeavenOnEarth -- your heart is evil !

[@justinjohns4617]

We must learn suffering to understand true love. There must be darkness to appreciate the light. People seem to learn the most from pain and I believe it's because pain comes from the heart, which is where we are supposed to live anyways.

[@amg726]

So, babies who are tortured and murdered are teaching us something and making us appreciate a sunny afternoon? And this deity is allowing this so that we learn something? There are other ways to learn without heinous suffering, especially of children.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

If “ there must be darkness to appreciate the light” , then it follows that there must be darkness in heaven

[@bond3161]

I used to think this way too. But I believe it's a human philosophy to cope with he suffering. For us humans, it seems like there is bad to appreciate good. But this might be fallacious. There is no real cold. Only the lack of heat. There is no real shadow, just the absence of light There is no real suffering Persay in order to appreciate true love Only love. God is love. All that you need. You don't need the absence of all that is good. You just need all of it.

[@Godistruelove1]

Yes, many people really have chosen evil and yes God knew that they would; so He made a way for anyone to go to Heaven who would freely choose God and His goodness, choosing Jesus and HIs sacrifice, in spite of not being able to see Him with earthly eyes, which means, among other things, sometimes humans must sacrifice their own perceived "good" for the good of others; With His help, of course, they could do so and would not think with pride about themselves and negate their sacrifice. The choice is real and the example of those who have chosen selfishly or have chosen to follow Jesus, reveals the truth of a real choice. Furthermore, the presence of evil and the ability to choose it, means that when one chooses God or "the good" one has the chance to be a hero something like our Lord, Jesus, the ultimate hero, who had nothing to gain for Himself but the eventual love of humankind ; and so God created the possibility of heroism out of the initial ; and those humans did not even initially appreciate the Love of God, nor the way of sacrificing for others; nevertheless, He gave up His life for those who were His enemies; but He did so, knowing that some would become His children, living for Him, the way He lived for others and still does. Yes, some would choose to follow Him, no matter the cost. And after choosing Christ, many did die horrific deaths, but knew they would receive "a better resurrection" and with His help heroically faced death. They are extolled in Heaven forever.

[@danasmith1165]

N Wehrheim yes. Jesus suffers greatly even today knowing many reject Him when He paid the ultimate sacrificed to save them. Yet so many still scoff Him. He is patient. His patience with rebellious sinners will not last forever. He knows the time is coming when they will face eternal death in hell cause they will always refuse truth. God is not a wimp.

[@satorimystic]

How can we know, appreciate, respect and care for what we believe is good, if there is no contrast presented to reveal its value. We cannot know Joy, if we do not know and experience Sorrow.

[@yeshuman668]

Why so many Christians cannot answer this question ? In fact, of all the world scriptures only in Bible we read God came to world to love us but no where his intention was to keep us free from suffering and dying. Sounds contradicting ? Loving God lets people suffer ? Think deeper here. Love does not exist without freedom. Most important for God is to offer freedom/grace. Suffering, natural disasters do happen as natural events, God just cannot stop them, had He not himself restrained, the very freedom would have been at stake and so His love. His grace was magnificently demonstrated in the crucifixion, God could not save his own son, he let th evil had a hay day on that Friday. Without freedom all of us would be just robots. God is not a Santa clause or a miracle worker as many believe.

[@wayfarer1101]

God is a miracle worket. Who else? He is not Santa Claus.

[@mkmason2002]

Man was given a free will so that he could choose to love God or not to love God. Man chose to sin and sin brings death and destruction.

[@poppypalais3108]

And the people that were killed? Where was their freedom of choice?

[@mkmason2002]

@@poppypalais3108 It was taken from them by their murderers. As I said sin brings death and destruction. God gave those murderers a free will too. If God took away their free will then He, being just, would have to take away all men's free will and He won't do that. The question is, what will you do with your free will come to Christ or die in your sins? Will you choose Christ to be your Savior or your Judge? Your choice.

[@poppypalais3108]

It's not really much of a choice though. Accept Jesus or be tortured forever. Can't really call it free will. God created all and knows all and so he must have known what these people would do. So why did he create them?

[@JosiahFickinger]

I believe God doesn't stop the evil immediately is because he is being merciful....allowing people to have a free will. Since Jesus' purpose has already been fulfilled and we live in a new covenant, there's no reason to use physical violence anymore.

[@scotte4765]

Eight minutes of the same hand-waving, rhetorical distractions, and logical evasions Christians usually give on this question. To paraphrase: - "Under atheism, you have no basis for asking the question." It's not atheism that is offering claims about God that are inconsistent with our experience. It's Christianity. - "When someone is hurting, the best answer is compassion." The question was a logical and factual one, not a request about how to comfort grieving people. - "It can't be a lack of love because Jesus died for us." So God can't both die for us AND prevent suffering at other times too? Isn't he omnipotent? - "There might be a reason we just don't know about." That doesn't mean there IS some hidden reason, and until we have evidence that there is, all the other experience in our lives leads us to the conclusion that it's much more likely that a God of this type simply doesn't exist. The mere _possibility_ of some hidden reason that doesn't violate God's asserted justice or compassion doesn't equate to a high _probability_ for it. The most straightforward and honest part of his whole response was at 5:55: "Why didn't he come down and stop the Holocaust?" "I don't know." And a fully honest answer would have been, "I don't know, but I just choose to keep believing it anyway, because I want to."

[@Ashoerchen]

Kudos!

[@dedmanraizd]

Scott E Hello maybe I can answer a few things. 1. Atheist claim morality too but generally explain their morality as part of the process of evolution. It seems like atheists must also explain their end in order to lay claim on consistent experiences. This sounds more of an opinion. Christians tend to have a presuppositional view of our word already as well as atheist. 2. The question was a logical one - well what are you gonna do about it? That’s his job. 3. So God can’t both die and prevent suffering? Yes he can. Are you trying to use his own morals against him? Or maybe you lay claim that there is some form of standard independent to God that makes him unfit to be the source of morality because his own morality contradicts his commands and therefore this confirms no god? This argument assumes that god is unpredictable and therefore untrustworthy and the only thing we can trust is the inherent goodness of an act but there are problems with this. Bible already claims and describes the character of God which is what Keller is trying to say “it’s not because he didnt love us” so we can’t just throw everything out because he does something that in people’s eyes appears wrong. What if it is us who see it flawed? The Bible does talk about our sin clouding our judgement of right and wrong and we somehow claim to hold the standard that god should follow. However, we as people hold imperfect characteristics. We are the untrustworthy (and we can see this) ones and therefore we fall under the category of being unable to disprove god. The only possible way this could have worked is if we as humans were perfect in every way. Then we can hold god accountable. Atheist seem to find their morals in enlightened self interest that is our morals are developed by what is already around us and our experiences but again this is under the lens of what the Bible would call sin. As imperfect beings, we are claiming some moral standard based on our experiences so whose to say that our self enlightened can be destructive and it will be because we are imperfect. What’s worse is that our intuition of perfection or doing better does not allow us to be imperfect. Otherwise we would be content in our mediocracy.

[@scotte4765]

@@dedmanraizd It's been three months so I don't know if you'll see this response, but just in case, here it is anyway. 1. First, citing scientific or sociological evidence to explain human morality isn't presuppositional. Second, there's nothing contradictory or inconsistent about naturalistic explanations of morality. Nobody claims there's some God of Evolution whose job is to make sure we evolve with perfect morality or keep us safe and happy. It is Christianity that makes claims that don't match real human experience, and those claims are what we're examining here. 2. The question at hand is, "In the face of widespread and continuing suffering, why should we believe the Christian God exists?" The question at hand is not "what should we do about suffering?" That's a good question for another conversation, but here it's just an attempt at distraction so Keller can avoid answering the first question. 3. As with the first two points, you misunderstood my statement. Keller claims that Jesus's death alone proves that God's neglect of human suffering doesn't come from God not being loving, as if doing one loving thing one time makes up for billions of other instances of indifference and neglect, over thousands of years. This is nonsense. Would you say you had a loving father if he gave you a present on your tenth birthday but then ignored you all the rest of your life? You suggest that our view of things may be flawed. Perhaps it is. But it is the only view we have, so we draw the best conclusions we can based on the evidence we have. You're making the assumption that no matter what happens, God is always good and right. Sorry, but when God's existence is what is in question, you can't make that assumption. If God really does exist and has great and wonderful reasons for allowing the abuse of children and a thousand other forms of suffering, let him come down and explain them to us himself, and fix our flawed views of things. He should be able to do that. Isn't he omnipotent? But because you know he has never done that and never will, you have to make up excuses for him. Again, the morals of atheists aren't what this video is about. Don't change the subject. I could have the silliest morals or the worst morals or the most illogical morals in the world and Christians would still need to explain why we should believe in their God when there's no evidence for it, and much evidence against it.

[@DG-cc6tx]

Great responses

[@BingleFlimp]

Evil doesn't prove there is no god. It does, however, invalidate the theistic argument that it's possible for there to be a god that is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving.

[@hallboy5]

Can you think of any instance where it would be loving to let someone experience pain? If you can, then God can still be all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving. One example I can think of is a father taking his baby to get immunization shots. The kid has no idea what is happening and all he cares about is that it hurts. He sees no purpose in the pain because his perspective is vastly limited. But the father doesn't stop the pain- not because he doesn't love his baby, but, in fact, BECAUSE he loves his baby. Since he loves his kid, he lets his kid experience intense pain because he knows it is ultimately for his good.

[@chigozieagwuncha2166]

@@hallboy5 Fair enough. So what's the purpose for the Vietnamese children born disfigured by virtue of the Vietnam war? Or the Children dying in Africa by virtue of starvation and war? What light is there at the end of the tunnel for them? Especially after you factor in the fact that they'll be going to hell for having been born non-Christian

[@hallboy5]

@@chigozieagwuncha2166 My claim is not that I, as a Christian, know the purpose behind all suffering. It's that I believe God has a purpose behind it all and he is in no ways obligated to reveal that to us. Biblically, God has multiple good general reasons for including suffering in his creation: building godliness in his people (James 1:2-4), displaying the horror of sin and rejecting him (Genesis 3:17-19, Romans 8:18-22), bringing judgment on the ungodly (Romans 1:18), etc. But I don't know the purpose behind any specific suffering, nor do I expect or have to. I know that God's unchanging character is one of goodness and justice and I think he has every right to do with his creation as he pleases.

[@strongheart7371]

We can be sure that just as He did in the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah, he will soon intervene and rid the earth of all its woes.

[@HebrewGamer100]

because man is sinful and rebellious against the law of God and therefore God has given them over to their sinfulness and the consequences of their sin. read romans 1:18-32

[@alexm.6533]

God gave us free will, and one of the consequences of free will is that there is evil.

[@amg726]

Is it really "free"? The punishment for not believing is eternal torment in a hell that this deity created. Doesn't sound too free to me...more like a North Korean prison camp.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

So is there free will in heaven? If so, and if, as you say, “ one consequence of free will is that there is evil”, then there must be evil in heaven. So the inhabitants will have to be permanently on guard lest they slip up and are evicted. What a fun way to spend eternity!

[@johnmorgan5495]

Keller avoids the question should be a politician

[@petepeet5174]

He didn't avoid it. He said "I don't know."

[@48Ballen]

As an engineer, an axiom is that nothing complex works without a design. Life is so complex that it is mathematically impossible for life to have developed and exist without a design engineer. I view God as the Chief Engineer of the Universe.

[@s.kov.1385]

“I have a cat”?? What?? I’ll bet Keller was a dodgeball champion in school..

[@melodyschleicher81]

God hasn't yet put a stop to the suffering we endure on this earth because everyone has freedom of choice, without which we would all be automatons. Automatons, by their nature, are unable to love, and God is love. He desires our loving response in return. Love cannot be commanded, it can only be won in an atmosphere of freedom. That must then allow for freedom to choose to do the wrong thing too. He has promised, however, that an end to suffering and death is coming, and with it, restoration and a new life.

[@elmatonn2730]

Tim Keller sounds like a lawyer. Never a straight forward answer.

[@pegasus6724]

God allows suffering for learning purposes only to teach us right from wrong and from a polarity between darkness and light many people will receive hardship on earth at God's will but they will all I herit heaven which is a place of eternal peace and happiness

[@david52875]

He wrote it in all caps, so it must be true.

[@albertpurification985]

Without holy spirits,it's quite difficult to believe the existence of God,but intellectual and philosophical ideas can not make you believe .

[@thobanihlongwa8717]

First off remove Jesus from this discussion coz there has never been proof of his existence and stop talking for God let him or her explain him or herself, you say his real right? Let him talk and tell us . I just don't even get why he wanna be worshipped before he do something you asked or send a,blessing your way. So if I don't worshipped him I won't get no blessings? Just like slave masters , you don't work you don't eat or even get killed and got supported that coz if he didn't we wouldn't be talking about it. Thank you, Thobani from South Africa.

[@maryandrew3324]

Thobani Hlongwa there is lots of archeological evidence for the existence of Jesus but go off if it makes you sleep.

[@thobanihlongwa8717]

@@maryandrew3324 What evidence Mary ? Jesus died and he doesn't even have a tomb, his tomb should like a place people visit but naah... and where are the descendants of all the people on the bible ? They can't all die it doesn't make sense . I don't know Shaka Zulu I only hear stories of him but I know his tomb and we have his descendants here in South Africa which is evidence that he actually existed. White people sold us this myth that's all and if this was all true White people wouldn't have done what they done to African people knowing such a powerful man. Please give me a few examples of the evidence you talking about. If you were God you yourself... would you have created Satan the man who despise everything about you and don't give me the typical He was first an Angel before he went rouge coz the Bible says God knew you before you are born, he know you while you are still in your mother's Womb so he should have know and never have brought him to life. All this Jesus story is a made up Story just to try and keep the world in balance coz imagine there was nothing called a sin and you can just go kill and take what you desire.

[@maryandrew3324]

Thobani Hlongwa have you ever heard of something called Google. You should use it sometimes.

[@thobanihlongwa8717]

@@maryandrew3324 You mean to tell me that all the mysteries of the bible can be found on Google? Let's not forget that Goolge is also where you find other people's opinions. I find it very hard why people try with everything they got on their bodies to fight for Jesus when he never fought for then coz he never existed. Mary...can Google answers why God created Satan when the bible clearly states that he knew us,before we were born. Now why would you create an opponent that's going to destroy everything you worked hard for?

[@waynecassels3607]

Fascinating.

[@LilacDaisy2]

Thanks! And I like the guy asking the question. Normally I want them to disappear so I can just listen to the answer, but he was fun.

[@odiupickusclone-1526]

I think the other guy was much funnier...

[@a.t.6322]

The right response to someone in the middle of suffering 1:57

[@odiupickusclone-1526]

In another words there is no anwer to the problem!

[@charleswilmot2996]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[@Lrapsody27]

Exactly why He hasn't ended things yet.

[@charleswilmot2996]

@Karl Pilkington the book of 2 Peter. I'm not sure the author. Sorry Karl.

[@Lyrakill]

The camera movement is Very distracting.. I had to shut my eyes to listen. TRIPOD next time k? lol

[@erikjrussell]

Renee Nunya Agreed! They did have a tripod, but not a VIDEO tripod. They were using a still camera tripod that cannot smoothly move between positions. Aggravating! 🤦‍♂️🤯

[@charlesotis6971]

You took too much maaaannn

[@deborouspattersonjr9193]

Suffering proves we need God.

[@the_player_xd_1520]

I’m not against God or anything but what about when we’re suffering and we ask God for help but doesn’t help how do we need God then?

[@deborouspattersonjr9193]

@@the_player_xd_1520 God's complete help must come in his way. Yes, we need help now and God knows this. However, look at the bible characters. The suffered great loss, too. Even Jesus lost his earthly father before he himself died and Jesus did not resurrect him. Now that was because Jesus was more concerned about others more than himself. But also he knows what the future will be for his earthly father which will be everlasting life in the kingdom God will establish. Matthew 7:21 helps us to understand that we must do God's will to be saved. And when you do that then no matter what this old world has to throw at you, you will be able to endure it to the end. For example, I lost my mother about a year ago. I miss her but I know that she did God's will to the best of her ability all her life. I am comforted in the fact that I will see her again under God's kingdom with an earthly hope for her. Study the bible yourself and get what you need out of it to give you hope. Here is a bible study you can do online yourself-jw.org Ask more questions if you need to

[@the_player_xd_1520]

Deborous Patterson jr it’s cuz only bad things have been happening to me literally the biggest fear I can ever fear it came to life it happened like I’ve experienced unfairness so much it’s insane and it’s had me depressed suicidal wishing I was never alive and also doubting so much and I am still like that and it leads to sin I just don’t know how I can have faith in all these things that say in the Bible but then when it comes to help from God or answer to prayer nothing happens? Like idk what to do

[@deborouspattersonjr9193]

@@the_player_xd_1520 I think God wanted you to have this. Please go to jw.org and scroll down just a bit to the Watchtower entitled "Is Life Worth Living?" Download it or listen to it. Also, send me an email. [e-mail] Let talk privately.

[@darynstockwell984]

All the ugly, evil, and misery of life is like the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves no practical purpose except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, ever. So we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED 1Cor. 15:26!!

[@simeonb3726]

Anyone who asks 'how can God exist with so much suffering in the world?' isn't interested in the answer, or the truth of that answer for that matter.

[@simeonb3726]

@Mary Teresa Are you asking that question?

[@perryutanis1600]

The Bible tell us in revelation 21:4 that there is coming a time when sorrow, tears , pain and death will pass away. Thers coming a wonderful day when God will wipe away all tears from the eyes of His children and sorrow will end forever , Christians all us claim that the blessed beloved Son , the Lord Jesus Christ will saved us by grace through faith in the Lord Jrsus Christ ❤Amen

[@ericmcdowell5762]

How is it possible, that a Father would send his only son into the world, to save us all, knowing that he was to be sacrificed for us? Only GOD in his wisdom.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

Eric McDowell How is it possible that a father would condemn the vast majority of his children to eternal damnation? Only god in his wickedness.

[@ericmcdowell5762]

Obviously, you know not GOD.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

Eric McDowell Well if the bible is anything to go by, your god is a monstrous, malevolent, mass murdering maniac

[@ericmcdowell5762]

You know not the GOD of the Bible then.

[@nancyhagan7553]

God is love and if humans teach hatred and divide each other in order to control that is the wickedness we get the nerve ending cycle of suffering from cruelty of others who have no love

[@MM-yi9zn]

The Holocaust breaks down any belief in a God.

[@michelhaineault6654]

Suffering,death, is the reminder of our depraved nature,resulting of sin in Eden.We are all by nature ,son of perdition,sinners.For a believer,the present suffering is nothing compare to the glory that await him in his eternal life to come.

[@michelhaineault6654]

It pleased God to lock every men in sin. Sin was part of God plan,but also was the Redeemer Jesus Christ.Sin was like an unavoidable evil.But God created all thing trough Jesus because Jesus was to be God answer to overcome sin. Men own self and will is SIN,and they must die at their self for to God Spirit to enter and take the place of our will and self.We must DIE at our pride,self ,will to be able to worship God in us,who take our place. This is God way to be God in us,and this is God miracle in us by the gift of Faith. Eternal life it's Jesus because he lived in us and He his eternal. Paul,the apostle said: The suffering of the present time,are nothing compare to all the richness that we will inherit in Christ.

[@Alephkilo]

I like Dr Keller’s point on remaining silent and listening to someone who is suffering. It is a sign of emphathy. But as far as the point about higher law providing the moral compass it doesn’t necessarily come from scripture. You can see that in Children and even animals. ( Jesus said, the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these) So is there innate goodness or innate sin or both? The current dogmas on salvation does not address these contradictions.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

I love how after all of the chapters where Job continues to question God on what is he doing God doesn’t answer one question. He doesn’t owe us an answer. And Job agreed in the end and said I repent in dust and ashes knowing that God controls the universe.

[@Maksie0]

You love that? Really? Seems very unreasonable of this god.

[@scotte4765]

If he claims to be a just and compassionate god, I'd say he owed Job not just an answer but also an apology. And after that he might consider bringing Job's original slain children back to life instead of just replacing them with new ones, as if human children were replaceable commodities. Job only submitted in the end because God bullied him into silence.

[@Huskercentral]

Can I just get an answer to this question...who did this camera work and can said person be helped? Goodness man, it's hard to focus on what's being said with all the movement.

[@ebenezereghan6348]

Anytime something bad happens, do not be quick to blame God but rather be quick to blame good people who chose to do nothing.

[@scotte4765]

Any time something bad happens, that's an instance of God choosing to do nothing, since he supposedly knows about everything and has the power to do anything. So he's right there in the group you say we should blame, and that's the entire problem.

[@ebenezereghan6348]

Evil should be the reason why we run to God and not away from God.

[@ebenezereghan6348]

Evil exists not because God allowed it but because man embraced it.

[@scotte4765]

@@ebenezereghan6348 Why run to God because of evil when he never does anything about it? YOU said we should blame good people who choose to do nothing. That describes God perfectly. He would in fact be the worst offender in that group, if he existed. *Evil exists not because God allowed it but because man embraced it* Someone who sees an evil thing happening and chooses to do nothing about it is part of its cause just as much as whoever carried it out. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then no evil or suffering can happen without him saying, "sure, go ahead." You can't ignore that.

[@ebenezereghan6348]

If you blame God for evil, why don't you praise him for the good when it happens?

[@TinaPriscilla]

The reason is one of his greatest gifts to us. Free will. Unfortunately there are people who have evil in their heart and CHOOSE to do evil, they choose to be greedy, they CHOOSE to be unforgiving etc... for him to stop anyone from doing anything kind or unjust would not be in his nature because he has given us choice. That is where these issues cross from a "God problem" to a people problem. God has never shed blood (not even Jesus, man chose to crucify him) but it was his WILL, so that he was the payment for humanity

[@zacharyc.897]

Extremely well articulated, great job Tim Keller.

[@odiupickusclone-1526]

Thanks for nothing i would say...

[@RFLarchitects]

Because this is an imperfect world. A world where evil exist in the minds and hearts of people. It doesnt mean that God kept his eyes away from you, but know for sure that if those victims in the holocaust who have repented and gave their life to Jesus, they are already celebrating their full joy and peace in Heaven with the Lord. Our focus should not be in the world for we do not belong here.

[@berts558]

I'm startled that this isn't clear to you as a theologian

[@WendellRye]

So your explanation is...?

[@brotherandrew3393]

1. The accusation against God for him to "allow" suffering implies that God has to provide a pleasent live for everybody all the time. But God is not the person who has to obey our expectations. 2. God is not limited to our live on this side of the grave. Our biological existence is not the most important thing. 3. We live by trusting God and not by that which we can see or experience with our natural abilities. And of course there are more reasons why human suffering is no argument against God.

[@tappa7649]

God cannot be Omnipotent, omnipresent and Omni benevolent. When we live in a world where adults and children are recorded being tortured and then spread online for all to see. It is as simple as that. If he is real he’s an asshole and does not deserve praise.

[@brotherandrew3393]

@@tappa7649 You are presenting no logic at all. Maybe you are forgetting that people harm people against Gods will and not God? If you would try to think you would have to ask yourself when God has to intervene in your life. When you are angry, having evil thoughts about other people, being selfish, lying? What kind of your behavior should God stop to be "benevolent"? And if God would stop every wrong behavior of mankind that would make us robots. Than we would not be able to love one another. But we are made in his image. And he is no robot. But he is love. If you have children your love for them would not prevent them from living their own live even if you don´t like it.

[@tappa7649]

@@brotherandrew3393 well what is heaven then? If it’s a place where there is no sin or no reason to sin then why wouldn’t we all just start there? It’s cruel that god has a way for us all to get along, but won’t share it until people live their lives with “free will”. How is heaven perfect without sin and allows people to have free will? Or is free will taken away in heaven?

[@tappa7649]

@@brotherandrew3393God is all knowing so if he has a perfect heaven then he knows how people can get along without having to allow little children to be tortured in the name of “free will”.

[@brotherandrew3393]

@@tappa7649 You are now switching and mixing topics. And I could easily debate your wrong assumptions. But my faith for me is too precious to attempt winning a debate. Faith describes a love affair between my God and his people. It is not a kind of life insurance to go to heaven in order to avoid hell. As I already said: There is no love without the freedom to love. And that freedom can be misused the same way every good thing can be misused. Therefore accusing God to give us this freedom is like accusing a father to let his children drive his car after they got a drivers license because they could have an accident. In this example is included what makes a love relationship work: To trust someone. There are no relationships without trust and love. I am trusting and loving my wife although she could commit adultery. And vice versa. What makes heaven in your opinion "perfect"? Well I would answer: It is true self denying pure love between God and his people and among his people. For me that is very inviting. And it starts here and now: Letting God by faith and his grace transform me into a truly loving being. And if you love this way you can not sin.

[@bond3161]

I can think of two reasons One. Free will. God gave us free will so that we can freely love. Any restricting is a restricting to loving. Two. Original sin. God told us from the start we will surely die if I stray from him the source and sustainer. We inherent original sin from our ancestors who strayed. But so that we may live again, we believe and take the water of everlasting life by confessing with our lips that Jesus is God. And doing what is told of us to to do. Baptize, commune and love each other.

[@mr.cosmos5199]

Apparently God specialises in bringing light out of darkness, gardens out of deserts, making saints out of sinners, giving glory to the humiliated, bring good out of evil ,etc. So true happiness comes out of Sufferings. Worthy is the Lamb to receive all power, glory,etc,etc .....why? Because it was SLAIN! Heaven is for sufferers.

[@ahskincare3150]

God is real.I trust God.❤️✝️❤️

[@henryhamilton9574]

There is no greater injustice than the condemnation of a man for crimes he was not guilty of. The tragedy of it all is when the man willingly faces such injustice to uphold his convictions knowing he will ultimately be persecuted with no compassion for his testimony regardless how wrong the jury is.

[@bwoutchannel6356]

The Jewish believers themselves continue to believe fervently and why would we turn and run rather than see this and be drawn deeper still into a faith worth following.

[@armandito9735]

In my opinion,....I think God put us here on this temporary Earth, to see how we would handle our suffering and our wealth and great life,...just to see what direction we'd take according to our ....free will. That is why I tend to believe that God just sits back and ...observes how we handle ourselves. But then that's my opinion and way of thinking.

[@amg726]

If I sat back and watched babies getting tortured and murdered, people would think I was a monster. But yet your God did just that.