Women & the Priesthood - Dr Peter Kreeft

Dr Kreeft's lecture on priestesses from 1994
Introduction (0:00)
1. Reasons of Authority (11:01)
2a. Reasons of Sexual Symbolism (22:14)
2b. The Father's Masculinity (35:15)
2c. Christ's Maleness (44:20)
3. Reasons of the Common Good (50:18)
4. Reasons of Discernment (57:46:)
This lecture is Kreeft's contribution to the book of the same name (with Alice von Hildebrand) which is out of print, though sometimes available used:
Women and the Priesthood www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASI...
Section two of the above talk is available as online text:
Sexual Symbolism www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mor...

[@jalalgharfeh3063]

I doubt anyone can arrange such a perfect wedding of logic, English, fluency, and truth. I had to stop, repeat, and listen again to keep from missing any jewel. WOW!

[@mike-cc3dd]

17:00 this huge point is huge.. i love it! Thank you for uploading this.. Please please upload more of Peter Kreeft's work. It's just plain genius.

[@jennifergrady4499]

This whole talk is one BIG mic drop!

[@dennis1662]

I have never come across a defence for ' the Male only Priesthood' as amazing as this is

[@srinjayadasa3862]

I am not from the Christian tradition what to speak of being a Catholic but I very much appreciated his talk and presentation. It is clearly evident that he is a sincere servant of God and is standing up against the evils of feminism. Feminism is attacking all social institutions and is also damaging the spiritual community (Hare Krsna's) that I belong to. All persons of faith should unite as servants of God against the common enemy feminism, marxism, and atheism etc..

[@srinjayadasa3862]

+louis cyfer could you please teach me how to do it by your personal example.

[@srinjayadasa3862]

You are right I am stupid but I can sure try and follow you example if you do it first. As it is said example is better than precept.

[@louiscyfer6944]

Srinjaya Dasa give yourself some credit, give it a try.

[@stephanietanniss]

how is feminism affecting HK?

[@RosstafarianBC]

Dr. Kreeft is an amazing speaker for the Church. Glad he is on our side.

[@JamesWilliams-eu5mn]

I love Peter's positivity and respect for everyone.

[@ryan82scott]

You should read the work of Dr. Kreeft; he can certainly think for himself! His book on Heaven (The Heart's Deepest Longing) is amazing. What should be recognized is that Kreeft is a very humble man, and is always careful to owe to the minds of the past what is theirs. Humble and thoughtful are not mutually exclusive.

[@99lozza]

Dr Kreeft is very good at presenting this argument in a logical and organised way. Thank you, Dr Kreeft. I would make the comment that there are many languages that do not have male and female nouns. Thai and Chinese and others do not. I think it is mostly the European languages that have male and female nouns.

[@milas1976]

Saint Paul teaches that women in formal church settings are to keep silent (1 Cor 14:34-35). How then can a woman preach? Saint Paul says that women should learn in silence in formal church settings on account of the creation order. (1 Timothy 2:12-15) Note this is not a cultural argument but an argument based on creation. Saint Paul prohibits women from teaching and holding authority over men in formal church settings. (1 Timothy 2:12-15) All clergy both teach and hold authority. Saint Paul does not include women in the criteria for Christian ordination. (Titus 1:5-, 1 Timothy 3:1-12,14-15) Note that clergymen are to be a man of one wife not a woman of one husband. If we are going to swip-swap words as if gender doesn't matter, why not also say that a priest should be the man of one husband and let Gene Robinson alone? Our Lord Jesus Christ did not choose any women to be Apostles. Obviously, St Mary Magdalene would have been a great lady Apostle because she had witnessed the empty tomb first hand. And yet she was not an Apostle. Same goes for the Blessed Mother who witnessed the crucifixion and held a prominent role at Pentecost. Men and men alone were chosen by Christ. Further, the Apostles did not consider female candidates when choosing a replacement for Judas, or when choosing seven deacons. (Luke 6:13; Acts 1:14-26; Acts 6:3) And lastly, the Old Testament knows nothing of female clergy, save for those wicked and pagan religions that surrounded them. It is dishonest for us to fudge Scripture in one area (women's ordination) and then protest so strongly against those who consistently continue to fudge the Scriptures in another way (homosexual marriage and ordination). Either you follow the religion revealed by Christ or you don't. If you want to be biblical, if you want to be consistent: You cannot honestly support (or ignore) the dangers of women's ordination.

[@dennisstewart7135]

***** Once a woman is ordained, it is no longer the Catholic church.

[@romancatholic9519]

***** Good pts. Jayguess needs to read corinthinas and timothy

[@munch15a]

so question does this point us against female lectors ?

[@breedanagle9957]

milas1212 Àaaaaaa

[@EC-rd9ys]

Thank you :D

[@marylouisehooley-carlisle3604]

My "liking" this doesn't mean I agree w/ everything Kreeft has said. I don't know if I do or not. But he's making me think about several things in fresh ways, and I want to remember to look into these topics and then review this talk again.

[@glorialabella6361]

Very intelligently presented on the issue of priestesses, Christ is the author of the Church. Rome has spoken the case is closed. ✝️✝️✝️

[@katdunn7934]

BEST EXPLANATIONS EVER!!!

[@fotisvon9943]

hey he wrote the catechism book im going through in rcia!

[@NaYawkr]

Dr. Peter Kreeft, what a wonderful and enlightening explanation of why the choice of God is supreme, and not ours to change or reject. God is unchangeable yesterday, today and tomorrow. Those who hate the idea of Almighty God are the only ones who will object and despise this explanation of truth. The mind of this man is a blessing for all who hear him. The Queen James Bible, the King James de-Catholicized version is then further expunged of the truth so it changes God's word to whatever God hating gays wish to have others believe.

[@tommore3263]

Perfect.

[@BohdanJacklitsch]

Amen !

[@spasjt]

***** Well said.

[@EC-rd9ys]

35:56 As a counter question, he says God could not have revealed Himself through sin (in regard to the argument that the male language about God in the Jewish tradition may be the residue of chauvinism). But God did reveal Himself in the Mosaic law, which allowed divorce. How is that different?

[@MGabrielValles]

One thing is to want, and another is to permit. Mth 19,8: “He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.” Christ also elevated marriage (a natural sacrament) to the level of a supernatural sacrament, meaning that divorce wasn’t a sin necessarily.

[@kdmdlo]

Does this talk exist in one, unbroken recording? Is there a video associated with this? When was this talk given and to whom? Thanks!

[@jeffl8725]

It prophetic how Dr Kreeft is describing everything wrong with the Church today, especially the Amazonian Synod, yet this was recorded 25 years ago! PLEASE SHARE!

[@Etihwkcirtap]

Great post o teach tai chi and use the yin yang principal that way too. I visited a pius 10 society and was shocked women who act like women and men who act like men

[@milas1976]

***** So you think St. Paul condoned the ordination of women? Let's see what St. Paul said about so-called ministry of women.... While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1-16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11-14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34-38)

[@milas1976]

***** Slavery is accepted as normal today too... Ever heard of the Muslim world? It is even worse today given that it is purposely hidden. And when you say the past, is that the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Arabs, Christendom? Because all three had completely different ways of life, laws, and policies. What's even worse is that the same human sacrifice that went on then by the Canaanites and Amorrhites or pagans during the time of the apostles goes on today. Today is just called abortion and hidden under the "women's rights" umbrella.... To put things into perspective here: since 4000 bc it is estimated that 2.6 billion people died from all the wars combined. That's 6000 years of history. Since 1980 there has been 1.3 abortions done worldwide. That's half the population killed since 4000 bc in just 3 decades. Again, with this horrible present with what arrogance anyone judges the past? What seem as women liberation is in reality a mask. So called liberation of women that is making 1 out of 4 women murderers. But let's continue to say that things were horrible in the past by some progressive professors who merely follow an agenda of sin perpetuation and who do not know where exactly they are progressing towards. The lie that everything was horrible in the past in comparison to us now so let's continue to "progress" towards the abyss. That lie is pathetic and it attempts to give people a false feeling of self-righteousness. More murders, more slavery, hidden slavery, more objectification, less morals, less families, more materialism, more prostitution, etc etc... But hey let's continue to say that in the past things were worse.....

[@milas1976]

***** The fact that it is illegal in the west, it doesn't mean it doesn't occur. In many parts of the world is legal. Let's just also examine the conditions of women today in primarily the west, 1 out of 4 women in the west are made murderers under the disguised of women's rights. In the west maybe, but not in many parts of the world. So, no conditions for women are not better. And what St. Paul says is applicable to every time. We can't adjust the truth to our times. Truth is one. Women have a different role in the Church but certainly not priests. That would be disobeying God. God Himself didn't choose any women in the old testament to be priests and neither in the new.

[@milas1976]

***** Try not insulting in order to "win" an argument. Summary: Things were worse in the past than today The passage only applied to the past and not today You are wrong despite the evidence You begin to insult Later!

[@philcortens5214]

His reference to "the Lefebvrite tragedy" in the context of his other remarks suggests that he believes the Archbishop had good reason to ordain priests and consecrate bishops without Vatican approval. The chief reason being modern Rome's ongoing efforts to abolish the traditional Mass.

[@joancc]

Truth!🔥

[@paradoxo9111]

+Edmond Ko, I can't tell whether you are trolling, or having an irrational panic attack. What can I say? When you try to compare something which has been carefully reasoned for to the Taliban and ISIS, without offering any proof whatsoever, it speaks of a problem which you have, not the person and stance you are attacking, and that's if you're being serious. If you're trolling, it's not funny.

[@angeleyez3749]

Just believe! Shalom...Jesus says...Shalom

[@EC-rd9ys]

As someone who loves Kreeft's talks and submits to the authority of the Church, I find this to be one of Kreeft's weaker talks. If the skeptic of the Church's statement on priestesses is not a femininity-hating pagan/pantheist, a lot of his arguments fall flat. Besides those statements, most of what he says revolves around "It's clear and obvious," "It's the nut, not the shell," etc., which are not explanations. This may be because I'm dense, but I will continue looking.

[@arthurmaglieri1824]

Wow. Great talk and he is so right about looking at the faces of the feminists, so angry!!

[@theclubvids]

Did he deliver this to Catholics?

[@theclubvids]

WAIT he converted to ROMAN CATHOLIC.... dang... well.. use what you can Lord..

[@franciscanstudent]

In all likelihood, yes.

[@FaithFarmClips]

I wonder if Peter kreeft still feels the same

[@joancc]

Ask him. Look up his website, find his mailing address and write him your question if you are serious about knowing

[@angeleyez3749]

Rosemary Alles, unless you renounce the things of this world (modern times) and go back to that same dark ages, you're doomed. God is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow. Stick to what he asks of you and you will be safe. Just love Him...sincerely...and you will be amazed.

[@spasjt]

50:00 - 50:08 When you listen to this think of Mary's yes. "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord be it done unto me according to Thy word."

[@angeleyez3749]

Thank you for saying that Milas1212

[@angeleyez3749]

ortcutt, anyone who rejects the Catholic faith, never understood it in the first place. Your faith was weak! Period. A real Catholic has no doubts as to what he believes in...if not, are you just a follower? or a coward?...who packs up his luggage and leaves at the slightest 'boo' from an ignorant protestant or atheist? I think the latter are just people who are too afraid to admit that there is a force that is strong beyond their imagination. In their hear of hearts, they know the truth.

[@louiscyfer6944]

dear moron, you parade faith like it's a virtue. it is not. it ia being dumb and gullible. i had 8 years of catholic theology, my theology teachet is currently an advisor to the pope, yet i am an atheists. it's because i have no faith. faith is for the rtarded, for the mentally weak, for the idiots of the world. why would you want to believe things without evidence, why would you want to be willfully irrational?

[@latinmasschoir5581]

+louis cyfer Faith is a gift from God, the more you pray, the more you ask, the greater faith you're given by God. So you are right louis cyfer, faith is a gift from God. Clearly you've never asked for it, and you've never persevered with prayer. God help you, cause you're on the road to Hell - the place reserved for all those who reject God's love and grace.

[@louiscyfer6944]

Latin Mass Choir i did ask you ignorant shit. threatening me witb nonexistent places is silly you moron

[@latinmasschoir5581]

As per normal the critic of Christianity specifically Catholicism will revert to abuse rather than argument. That too is a sign, according to exorcists, of either demonic possess or satan worship. I grieve for you louis cyfer.

[@latinmasschoir5581]

what is a poe? or is your spelling shite?

[@antidepressant11]

disagree with him at your peril. you'd better do some research. even then, I believe his arguments are far more solid

[@UnPoeteMaudit]

No, Dr. Kreeft. The Church CANNOT decide to ordain priestesses even if she wanted to as she has no power or authority to alter the substance of any sacrament. And you go over "reasons of authority" without once mentioning that Pope John Paul II made an Ex Cathdra definition on the ordination of women. That, in itself, ends the argument. Teachings of the Extaraordinary Magisterium can never be changed or undone.

[@SandyL0uise]

@UnPoeteMaudit What? Did you even listen? Where did Dr. Kreeft say anything different?

[@lucindabunda2106]

+ Praised be to Thee , O Lord Jesus Christ and Mary, our Mother. Now and Forever. Amen.+ I am a cradle Roman Catholic so very traditional that in my Church or religious gathering people who gives talks begin with the Sign of the Cross signifying their Catholicity and giving Adoration to the Almighty God. Then you may proceed /say any of your prayers you prefer but the Blessed Mother of God revealed to one of the Saints that in order that your talks will be fruitful or sink deeply into our soul you need to call upon her and say her Ave! Further is this Roman Catholic because I do not see any Crucifix or the Statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. So please tell me. I stand corrected. Thank you. In Jesu et Maria.

[@bluewrenreilly129]

I have no real reason for not wanting women priests.I just personally do not want them as priests. I would like some reforms in the making of male priests tho' better vetting of them. Perhaps some psychological profiling and then better teachers and also more interest in their personal welfare.Especially as they age and are often alone.

[@angeleyez3749]

Toller Retreiver or Retriever? not sure what spelling to use.Now, are you too lazy to read the Bible or just too lazy to learn from someone who knows his onions? Only the devil prevents you from hearing or learning the truth. Dare to believe and watch God work His magic in your life. May the Holy SPirit guide you. Shalom

[@tau7260]

You are correct but for the wrong reason. He is stating what God has revealed from the beginning, what the church has believed since the beginning, and what the early fathers have built upon since the beginning. Building perspectives from the source is not a hindrance, it is the basis of natural law and scientific reason. We will pray for you.

[@dennisstewart7135]

Man has just invented a device to keep the inside of a car much quieter. It fits over her mouth.

[@rmhernandez777]

Will Never Happen ! It's Biblical ! Only Men. Even the Pope can not change the Divine Laws.

[@mrchillpamperingtv5077]

The Almighty made the Israelites. Not the Jews. Moses was a Levite not a Judahite. I agree with with most of what you have said.

[@Puglia506]

Anglicans have women priests and one knows instinctively that it's wrong.

[@JeffersonDinedAlone]

The speaker stated, "I don't think I have any new arguments; just re-statements of other's arguments." Which is tantamount to saying, "I must rely upon secondhand perspectives as I admit that I am simply incapable of forming my own." The speaker should take the responsibility of thinking, and not simply parrot others; he would find that the process would at least provide some measure of sincerity regarding what he expresses, simply by the fact that he would, in actuality, be thinking for himself

[@icarlsw34]

Just because something is new it does not make it better.

[@SeanMichaelAfable]

It’s what Isaac Newton called “standing on the shoulders of giants”. It’s what Kobe did in learning all the moves of the greats who played before him - Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, etc. The stupidity of this generation is almost always the result of their snobbery towards our formers. In seeking to be unique while neglecting the fundamentals, they fail at miserably at both.

[@elperinasoswa6772]

No. That's not what it is tantamount to. It simply means that there is no new truth on this earth but eternal truth that already imbued into reality, and him and everybody else before him that has found the truth, are just merely repeating it.

[@dennisstewart7135]

Feminism proves Satan is alive and well.

[@karensnemesis4552]

The deaconesses in Biblical times were never ordained. Anyone who knows basic theology will know the priest who stands in-persona Christi when making sacrafice on Alter, cannot be replaced by a female as there is Divine order and natural order which includes the role of man in the family from the time of Adam as the one who takes care of his family phsically and spiritually. In a perfect world this would be happening in every home,. The Priest who is our spiritual Father has care of our souls as we know from the NT. Anyone who knows there Bible knows we have Mary who fulfills in all who understands Divine Revelation ( not those who can pull 30 proof texts out of a hat ), everything we could ever need from a mother as she is the most perfect of Gods creation. It seems women want a greater role in everything, even that which God has shown is not there place. Satan had the very same idea. Until we can call a woman Father, there WILL be no female priests. There is more places for females in the Church than men, but a Priest has the special role of making the sacrafice to our Father. This cannot change.

[@ortcutt]

Sometimes I'm in favor of limits and saying "No" too, like when I rejected the Catholic Church and religion in general.

[@aescoto1523]

hope your journey finds you back to faith

[@freevoice8394]

Feminism takes us back to the Garden of Eden, where a discontented Eve reached out for the apple, wanting more than was good for her. Allowing Feminism to pluck the apple in the Church risks us all getting expelled from the Garden.

[@michaelcooper3444]

I love listening to and reading Dr Kreeft but I think he is misinformed when he says Aboriginal suicide is zero. On the contrary it is abnormally high in comparison to other ethnicities. I am Australian and the Aboriginal suicide rate has always been a cause of concern to all Australians. Great talk nonetheless.

[@SarumChoirmaster]

Women priestesses and pastors? GOD in the bible settled the matter. He directed and appointed men, not women. Jesus, GOD's Son, and part of the GODHEAD, appointed men as apostles, not women. The apostles ordained men. So, the matter is settled and final - NO ON WOMEN PRIESTESSES AND PASTORS! PERIOD.

[@Mebeingcool]

When Peter Kreeft described the women priest movement, I have found all that he described in the traditional Latin mass; the politics, everything was politicize in the Latin mass, always the right wing, always the Republican Party, the hatred, the fear, the anxiety, the anger, the guilty, the shame, the bitterness, the lack of peace and joy, the hardness, the self-righteousness, the rage in the conservative Latin mass. No joy, no love, no peace of Christ in the Latin mass only fear. God's love drives out all fear, not in the traditional, conservative Latin mass. The hatred of women in the Latin mass, there is no difference between the Latin mass and ISIS or the Taliban.

[@saintsbutnotyet7794]

+Edmond Ko I'm sorry you feel this way. While in your experience it may be that many hide behind the traditional mass as a form of self righteousness I don't think that is actually the norm nor is it a result of the mass itself. Tell me what part of the mass or the rubrics makes it so political and fearful ?

[@Mebeingcool]

SaintsBut NotYet the Latin mass Catholics I know are right wing republicans, these Catholics merge the Catholic Church with Americanism, an anti-Catholic ideology. American was founded by Protestant Puritans and the founding fathers were Freemasons. They wanted to know my relationship with the Republican Party not my relationship with Jesus. I hate the Republican Party, they kicked me out of the parish church.

[@saintsbutnotyet7794]

Edmond Ko My point is that just because some people hide behind traditions as a way of feeling holy, doesn't make the traditions bad. Again there is nothing in the mass itself that fosters this kind of attitude. These people are simply coming together here because they feel it is a safe place. You could make the counter argument that at most parishes that do not offer the Latin Mass the laity are dangerously under informed and do not believe what the church teaches. Neither one is a result of the mass itself but of the people that are the "so-called" leaders in each case.

[@Mebeingcool]

SaintsBut NotYet I confess, I do miss the Latin mass, the Latin Mass is beautiful. It is sad that people use it for their social political means and ends. If I do go back to the Latin mass, it would be for the latin Mass and only the latin mass.

[@saintsbutnotyet7794]

Go back because you love Jesus and the Latin Mass helps you love Him more. :)

[@zagraniczniak4120]

Foolishness

[@PhantomAlucard]

I'm not buying this.

[@BohdanJacklitsch]

Faith is God's grace to us and,as such, is priceless.

[@michaeldemarco1465]

Wow. I guess I have to give Kreeft points for having a way with words and for the creativity of the reasons he comes up to attack women's ordination. The Father's masculinity? That's a new one to me. So I guess that Pope John Paul I (who has the status of "venerable") is burning in Hell for saying that God can also be considered our Mother? And well-played, sir, on getting in a (bizarre) cheap shot against lesbians. The fact that Kreeft even has to ask what a (Catholic) church would be like with women priests shows that he hasn't bothered to study the experience of the Independent Catholic jurisdictions that have been ordaining women for decades. Guess what? A lot of them run quite smoothly. Frankly, I find Kreeft's musings on the inherent "masculinity" of God and "femininity" of the Church and all of us as members of the Church in relation to God to be a logical and particularly absurd extension of John Paul II's Theology of the Body. This is a theological tendency that blurs all distinctions between God's divine work of creation and human sexual reproduction and, therefore, at least borders on heresy. All in all, this is strictly preaching to the choir in all respects. I can't imagine ONE Catholic with feminist or progressive leanings shifting from support for to opposition to ordination equality based on Kreeft's well-spoken, highly articulate (yes) arguments. Stylistically, he is extremely condescending and seems to regard his listeners and those who disagree with him alike as stupid children (really, we "won't eat all the food that Mommy puts on our plate?" Gee, you're so respectful of an engaged laity. The Church may be "Mother" Church, but that doesn't make me a toddler and "her" "my mommy." Substantively, Kreeft's remarks are at least borderline rhetorical in assuming an essential ideology between human physiology and the nature of God and in asserting that the Incarnation would have failed to bring about our redemption if the Second Person of the Trinity had chosen to incarnate in a female body. Points for the sheer audacity, bro. And the hefty helpings of blatant misogyny and anti-gay hatred (plus an odd dose of misandry in his discussion of how men were inherently more in need in Jesus's salvific mission than women). Nice try, but still an epic fail, as the kids say.

[@michaeldemarco1465]

Also, newsflash: the "ideological parish" has already replaced the "geographical parish" -- despite women not getting their cooties on the altar. Leading to schism? It's already here. I'm also amused by how the post-2004 Red Sox have revealed the silliness of his argument that a woman who seeks success by managing or owning the Red Sox constitutes an argument against women's ordination.

[@nsdtr01]

the king of bible babble

[@timothydenton5286]

Many feminist saints are enrolled in the church's calendar. Our Blessed Mother the Theotokos, for one. "Rome has spoken" is one of the many reasons why Orthodox Christians and Latin-Rite Christians will not "be one" any time soon. This arrogance is such a tragedy.

[@timothydenton5286]

***** Yes, that's the biggest reason. I like Jehane D'Arc, but it's interesting that it took 500 years for her cause to be successful.

[@rosemaryalles6043]

Arcane. Kreeft lives in the dark ages.

[@EveKeneinan]

Rosemary Alles I'm pretty sure it's us that live in the dark ages, thanks to the hilariously misnamed Enlightenment.

[@srinjayadasa3862]

+Rosemary Alles Maybe you should take off your sun glasses. And things wont look so dark. (-: