The Truth About Secondary Bevels and Back Bevels on Planes and Chisels

[@ramingr]

James, one of the many things I like about you: "This is how I like to do it, but it not necessarily the best way for everyone. There are good reasons to do otherwise too". I really appreciate your approach.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

thanks man. that is how I like to roll!

[@mingulay29]

Great video. Just to give recognition where it is due the back bevel with ruler on a plane iron was the invention of David Charlesworth not that long ago (1970s or 1980s). He has some videos so check him out.

[@LordPadriac]

He didn't invent it either. He's just the guy the internet has settled on. He was very clear that that is how he was taught. It was a fairly common technique that fairly evenly split craftsman back then as well.

[@GraemePayne1967Marine]

At my age, secondary and back bevels are just complications. I just keep things simple and easy to remember. Put the blade in the jig to the mark, then work it on the diamond stones and the strop.

[@chaosreigns7386]

amen brother! if it ain't broke, don't screw it up thinking your making it better... I know this specific topic is highly contentious, but i agree with you totally... i sharpen, hone, strop, etc...as a hobby. however its all freehand but its something i actually find peace of mind and an inner zen while doing...i can loose hours making sure everything is perfectly balanced, polished and "shave ready" but when i get tools that have these secondary bevels and what not, i find that this " shortcut " is not just a hassle, but almost always leaves the cutting edge out of balance, chipped and (what really pisses me off) are rounded edges... my opinion: if your tool has nice bevel at a functional angle, leave it...your tools are much easier to manage, and they live longer too. it might take little longer but the risk of a mistake is lessened...

[@sal1964]

Great video I have been a power tool woodworker for 40 years just getting in to hand woodworking now about 3 years and it's definitely a skill and I enjoy it better love you video thanks

[@gregsnewyt]

Great video, James. Simple explanation that all can understand. I sharpen the entire bevel and flatten the backs of my plane irons without secondary bevels. I will occasionally add a secondary bevel to the primary bevel if I am touching up the cutter during use, usually just using the strop. I have used a back bevel on a badly pitted No 7 antique iron for exactly reason you described. It was not possible to flatten the back without removing 1/4” of material to clear the pitting. I was able to achieve excellent sharpness with the back bevel and save a lot of the iron for the future. “Play around with it and have fun”. The very best advice. What ever method produces the results you want are the best methods for you.

[@AssafOppenheimer]

Hi James, the reason I looked at this video was I was hoping you would address changing the angle of attack to handle tear out on bevel down planes

[@MintStiles]

I can do both full convex and secondary bevel. The full convex is a bit sturdier but harder to find the cutting edge during the sharpening without increasing the cutting angle. The micro secondary can be done on an oil stone in a few strokes. The additional space behind the primary also makes it easier to chop a mortise (but less durable). Back bevels I only use on flat blades with backs beyond the ability to be flattened effectively. It also only works on perfectly flat blades or relatively un-cambered (width wise) sections. It's not a good idea once you have figured out what you are doing, because it creates other issues.

[@jerrybrown1446]

My plane blades were getting good edges before I tried the back bevel, but I was unintentionally getting a steep camber, so when I back bevel, it helps to straighten out my wobbly sharpening.

[@doedeldidoedelda]

After watching a few of your videos I really must say thank you for sharing your knowledge! This is one of the best woodworking channels out there! I'm learning a lot.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Wow, thank you! that means a lot. I will keep them coming!

[@tommccurnin524]

This is Really a Good Video Explaining Secondary Bevels. Thanks for Your Time! What is missing from the secondary discussion is honing and stropping. It is impossible to strop a secondary bevel. I hate sharpening and therefore prefer to stay away from stones and stop a couple times a day rather than put the blade into a jig and hit the stones. Also what is missing from the back bevel discussion is the fact that most new and modern plane blades are reasonably flat and can be easily flattened with a few dozen strokes on the stones, so a back bevel is unnecessary as a shortcut to flattening. The back bevel also suffers from the same problem of stropping above. Thanks again. You are the Best.

[@Obscurity202]

Why can't you strop it?

[@tommccurnin524]

Because one cannot control the bevel with any accuracy when stropping a secondary bevel, because it is too small. One may feel the primary bevel to easily strop it.

[@Obscurity202]

ah ok good point! do you know if you can use the jig for stropping too or nah? thanks! @@tommccurnin524

[@tommccurnin524]

The micro bevel is so small .... how small is it? It is so small that they call it a micro bevel, which as its name suggests is really small and one cannot rest the bevel on anything without it rocking back and forth, destroying the very micro bevel you've just created. I think one should choose between (1) making a micro bevel and forget about a leather strop; or (2) ignoring the whole micro bevel craze and stropping chisels before one uses them. Pick one. Nothing wrong with a micro bevel. Nothing wrong with stropping. Just can't do both, or at least I'm not good enough to do both.

[@williamcarpenter569]

Thanks so much for this. You answered the two major “Whys?” I’ve had about sharpening. It has been confusing, but not any more. Thanks for the clarification.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

thanks! glad I could help out!

[@Bogie3855]

An instructional video as usual. Thanks for that. I am finding I am fond of the Veritas blades because they are thicker than the old blades so even in cheaper planes or older planes the performance is greatly increased and chatter is pretty much eliminated. Also I find that since the blades are thicker it is much easier to find the bevel and hold it. I am selling off my power sharpening stuff and will get the diamond plates that you and Rob and Paul are both fond of using. There is a reason that "old school" never really went away. I am going back to that myself. As well, there is a certain satisfaction to learning a new skill that does not need fancy expensive machinery to do the work for you. As long as the damn thing is sharp I am happy.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Sounds like fun. Right on

[@malcolmsmith5903]

I'm not that experienced but usually all the tricks and tips and 'innovations' in sharpening come from those with access to powered machines or from people whose hand tool working are influenced by machine working. For those folks they do work. For me, I just like a single bevel and a flatish back. I use a guide and I no longer feel a pressure to freehand because sticking my tool in at one bevel is just a single extra step. That said, I probably do end up with a minute secondary bevel after stropping but let's ignore that and just call it a polished edge. Find out what works best for you as the import thing is flatish and sharp. Ps it's hard enough to keep those 1/8" chisels square without then redoing it on 2nd and 3rd bevels.

[@karenbickel1154]

You must have been reading my mind. I just acquired a "new" to me plane and it had a back bevel on it. Wondered why. Thanks James!

[@criswilson1140]

Good info and good non-bias advice. For my not so great daily pounder chisels, I hollow grind to make them faster sharpen.

[@MDinsideZ]

After several years of sharpening I can only totally agree with you. Great content James, as usual. Greetings from Italy! ✌️

[@weldabar]

I actually get a little chuckle when long-time woodworkers disagree and swear that their method is the best. It's great to be able to see the different methods, and the pros and cons of each. This is something that the old-timey woodworkers did not have access to when they were learning.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

so true. it use to be that way with master and apprentice. in that case you had better do it the master's way. I think that mindset has a hold on many people still.

[@mariagdesjardin1000]

God, I love this dude's attitude!

[@DarkTouch]

i do free hand sharpening for edges, and use a CBD wheel for any major dressing, repair or bevel establishment. Generally, I avoid back bevels, because i hate to worry about re-establishing a flat back.

[@carmenlumayog5755]

I am a wood carpenter specialist here in the Philippines for 30 years this is my occupation. One things I should share with you is about the quenching methods of bevels and edges of chisel and any others sharp tools equipments in relation as wood carpenters observer. Here in the Philippines we common used for quenching methods, we went to the blacksmith by heating the bevels and edges the allowance of 2 inches from tip of the edges then wipe the bar soap of clothes, back to back horizontal direction then put it again into the fire just for 5 minutes then submerge the edges and bevel gradually into water the white line it's appear and this well done as a good result for quenching methods by manual. The objective is to straightening the bevel and edges sharp when you use it at work it will prolong period of time while you working.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Right on. We do that with all of our blades here too.

[@jamestaulbee4791]

Thanks James for making sharpening more understandable.

[@DonsWoodies]

Just an excellent video, James. Clear explanation of darn near every aspect of sharpening anyone needs. One teensy, tiny thing, though. I know you "talk with your hands." Man you scare the crap out of me watching your hands flying around while holding that chisel or plane blade. LOL! I swear one day you are gonna clip a finger. Haha. No worries, my man. Absolutely love your clear way of explaining everything.

[@watermain48]

Great discussion James, thanks for presenting it. I'm a huge proponent of the Charlesworth ruler trick, which Rob Cosman dutifully credits to David Charlesworth on a regular basis. Why the secondary bevel works for me, I think, is that it's easy to find the main bevel and then just lift the iron up a tiny bit to create the secondary bevel. I don't mind having to regrind a main bevel time-to-time since I'm retired and I enjoy sharpening. It's kind of a zen this for this old guy.

[@shamu7014]

Thank you James. I’m pretty new to woodworking, but had the same question in my mind about the secondary bevel, so I was really interested to hear your perspective.

[@chriswhalen4498]

Very good. I’m not overly happy with my hand sharpening so I’m going to try a back bevel on my plane blades to see if they are sharper. Thanks.

[@TheImmortalTraveller]

I've been looking for ages for this information and it's all perfectly and concisely here. I really appreciate this video, thank you so much!

[@Dermot-tv6fb]

Lol heard ya say plane boy. Great videos. I spent 3 hours today taking a 2mm different out of a no.4 plane with a 400g diamond card. Posture is important. You must be an expert at counting to 20

[@tenaciousjeebs]

Rob Cosman has made the back bevel method popular on youtube, but I think David Charlesworth originated it.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Yep.

[@hectorgittens9831]

Good explanation, my questions on these subjects have been convincingly answered.

[@JoeBob79569]

Nice one. There's not enough people who explain things properly like this, and let you know there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think I'll keep the back bevel/ruler idea in the back of my mind for the next time I find a blade that's not totally flat at the back. When I get an old vintage plane and it has a secondary bevel I usually just bite the bullet and get rid of it straight away, and I usually curse the previous owner a lot when it's one of those really old, thick, blades! But one of the things that annoys me the most is when I'm sharpening a spokeshave blade and it digs into the stone and flips over. I think I've created a few new curse words when this happens..

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Oh I hate that. sometimes with those small blades I only pull them back rather than pushing them back and forth.

[@JoeBob79569]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Ah yes, I might give that a shot, especially when I'm starting to get a bevel on the back so that all my good work doesn't get undone. And I don't want to ruin the stone either. I finally caved a few days ago and just ordered a honing guide; I'd prefer to just sharpen by hand, but the guide will be handy for certain situations, like this, and fixing curved bevels and blades that aren't straight, and anything else that's awkward.

[@keats182]

I do what amounts to polishing the back bevel but I try not to grind it. You will eventually face the same issue with a back bevel that you do with a secondary bevel.

[@lincolndickerson1293]

Thanks for unwinding this topic. Great explanations across the board.

[@justkirk]

Um... did I imagine things or is there a Barbie doll on your bench? Oh and thanks for the video. The purpose of other bevels has been on my mind as of late.

[@myrawright282]

🤣😂

[@JohnColgan.]

We all had the same hallucination!! Foot trapped in a bench dog hole 😁

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

it is a bench Barbie! you don't have one?

[@justkirk]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Extra hands when you need really small ones?

[@timothyprather6953]

On the plane blade, I don't see the angle of the cut changing with the back bevel. I definitely see the angle is steeper with a secondary bevel on a chisel. I don't use a secondary bevel for my chisels but I do use a back bevel on the plane irons. My planes are vintage and the back bevel does make the cuts cleaner.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

s back bevel on a plane iron will change the angle of the but and make it steeper. for tough grains that is a good thing though it will require a bit more force to push it will give you a cleaner cut.

[@douglashudson4706]

I was trying to sharpen a plane iron with one 25 degree bevel (with a honing jig) and it was shiny as heck along the entire width of the bevel (and marking the bevel with a sharpie I could see all the sharpie marks go away during the sharpening) but the performance of the plane just didn't seem right. Also, I never seemed to get the "burr" while I was doing the sharpening, which bothered me. Last night I tried putting a 30 degree 2nd bevel on it - after the first grit of sandpaper I *immediately* felt the burr. I went up through all the grits (which didn't take long) and put the iron back in the plane (a # 5 1/2) and the difference was immediately noticeable. I'm not really sure what I actually did during the sharpening process, but it really helped.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

One of the problems with 25° is you're removing so much metal across the hole to the bevel that it takes a ton of work to actually remove the tip. Also the 25° tip is very fragile and will not last as long as a 30 or 35°. I usually sharpen my plane irons around 35°.

[@jimweisgram9185]

Years ago, I read that a back bevel can be used to raise the effective angle of attack which then makes the plane harder to push but has the benefit of reducing tearout on gnarly wood. As if you had a plane with a higher frog angle. I guess that has fallen somewhat of favor with the advent of bevel up planes. Just buy a new plane and a couple of blades rather than just a new blade.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

True you can do that but if you put a large bag of lawn you have to move the chip breaker back which defeats the whole purpose of trying to get the higher angle for less tear out. Keeping the chip breaker closed to the tip is more effective than the higher angle cutting edge at reducing tear out.

[@jimhyslop]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo I'm guessing two things: 1) you used dictation software, and 2) you said "a large bevel on" not "a large bag of lawn"?

[@terrulian]

EXCELLENT, James. You cleared up a lot of mysteries!

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

glad I could help!

[@GrantHendrick]

Thank you for another helpful video.

[@909sickle]

yeeeeeep, I always do a quaternary bevel,... that way 'm not spendin' all day on my trinary bevel

[@johntailing5283]

909 you’re my kinda guy

[@Professorvapes]

a secondary bevel help moved cuts out of the way quickly like when you are doing mortises I have always sharpened my chisels this way if you take a closer look you will see it thickens your chisel hence extra strength I suppose the difference is in which way you was trained .

[@Marrio49]

Great information. I have one problem. I can't get plane iron sharp enough to shave any hair. Oh it will plane all right but I feel forward resistance as I'm planning. Here's my method; I use an electric grinder for putting on the primary bevel. This will put a Hollow Grind creating a burr on the edge of the plane iron. I then remove the Burr. Bear in mind that I have pre polished the underside of the iron about a half inch back from the front edge to remove scratches and to make it flat . Then I use a honing guide 2 hone the front edge until it creates a burr after which I use David Charlesworth's ruler trick to remove that burr. You would think The Edge would be sharp enough to remove hair but it won't. This is mind-boggling. Your thoughts please

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

there are hundreds of things that could be going on. what grits are you using, are you stropping. what kind of stones are you using. having a bur fall off does not mean it is sharp and often if the burr is too big it will take the tip off with it. Feel free to send em an email and we can talk it through. I would be glad to help [e-mail] sorry I probably will not see a reply here as it would be too far down the list.

[@ZeeFrankensteel]

PLease correct me if I'm wrong, but I've recently read that polishing the back will not lead to sharper blades. New blades on Veritas for example are lapped and they mention that it does not need polishing. You need to hone the front and add a secondary bevel if you wish on that new blade. Perhaps you are introducing some extra ''error'' when performing the polishing. I'm thinking perhaps is rounding the edge a minute amount., thus not sharp enough for hair care. Just a thought, which may be far from reality.

[@johnkeyte407]

Thank you.

[@ryanallthewiser]

Odd question... what was Barbie doing in the video... 😳🤣

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Lol that's an upcoming video probably in about 2 weeks. Should be a fun one.

[@MrAtfenn]

james i am very impressed by this video!! i admire and watch alot of youtube woodworkers as i know you do. as such my personal approach is a crazy frankenstein of all of them, youself included. i admire and respect guys like you, paul sellers, rex kruger and particularily by rob cosman. i have a ton of respect for him and i am inspired, as a disabled person with chronic pain, by his PHP "charity" for combat wounded and ptsd. i would urge everyone to check that out. one of the things i appreciate about you is your integrity and honesty on videos like this one. i love that even though you don't use some of these techniqes yourself, you give a complete description of them and a fair analysis. personally i like to grind my tools on a cbn wheel to obtain my initial angle. and i agree that the time saved is a wash but this way, when im working on a project sharpening doesnt interupt my work flow because i can touch up my edge in a matter of sectonds. i also love how the charesworth ruler trick lets you avoid hours of initial flattening on the back. this was probably my favorite video you have done so far. great work man and thank you for your willingess and ability to share your knowledge with us puny mortals. i am proud to be a patron!

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Thanks Aaron. I will keep them coming. and Huge thanks for the support!

[@mkplante]

Yes! Surprised only one person mentioned this. The secondary bevel deals with our natural tendency to procrastinate on sharpening, not to save overall time. How many planes on that wall are currently sharp?

[@ryanketrow3602]

I must be weird... I use a secondary bevel only to hone. I will remove the previous secondary bevel every time I sharpen on the cheaper lower grit stone(s). This saves the wear on the more expensive honing stone 🙃.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

yup that is one of the other ways a lot of people do it. works great!

[@MatthewBuntyn]

That's how I started doing it, after buying a sharpening series from Richard Maguire

[@michaelvaughan7424]

I do the same thing. I've only been at it a few months but I tend to hone steeper than I sharpen. Glad I'm not the only one!

[@paulzirker706]

Great video James.

[@MCsCreations]

Fantastic tips, James! Thanks a lot! 😃 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@DarkTouch]

Isn't one of the reasons you might want to increase the bevel and attack angle, is to reduce tearout on figured or interlocking grain woods?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Yep. But most people who want to do that just end up getting a second iron and keep it at that other angle resin changing the angle back and forth because that wears out the blade pretty quickly.

[@ianpearse4480]

Think I might have made a quad-bevel! If only I didn't wobble so much when sharpening. LOL. Must be something to do with belly mass movement forward and back when rocking. Oh, well back to the diet I guess. LOL.

[@mypony891]

Nicely explained. Thank you.

[@yannisvaroufakis9395]

Excellent explanation. I just got into hand tool woodworking and have some Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes that I haven’t gotten up the courage to try sharpening, yet. Those planes have thick A-2 and even more exotic steels that I imagine would take forever to hand sharpen the entire bevel. I note that you use antique blades, which are much softer carbon steel. Would your procedure be different with the ne hard steels?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I have blades of all makes and types. I have several that are a2 and a few that are even carbide. All of them. I hand sharpen with just a standard bevel. With diamonds. It's pretty quick and easy. There isn't much difference from steel to steal. If you're using whetstones then it can be a pain. And you really can't do carbides with water stones or oil stones. I actually did a full test a while ago. Testing almost every single iron on the market. For their durability and sharpen ability.

[@yannisvaroufakis9395]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Thank you so much for that info! If the difference in speed of sharpening is not significant, then I would much prefer the simplicity of sharpening a single bevel than making all sorts of secondary, tertiary and back bevels. Plus, it will allow me to free hand sharpen a single large bevel. I will look up your test of blade steels. I got both diamond plates and water stones. I should then use only the diamonds and forget the water stones? Finally, I note that the well-known craftsman, Paul Sellers, takes somewhat of the same approach as you do, freehand sharpening a single "macro camber" . He states that micro bevels came into vogue to compensate for waning sharpening skills.

[@damianlewis1103]

Another reason for the "ruler trick" is when flattening the back of the plane iron prior to sharpening. By using the ruler you only have to flatten the very end of the iron, not the whole iron.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

That is true. However once it is flattened it never needs to be flattened again. It's a once and done procedure.

[@EricRoy85]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate your hard work 👍

[@seannodonnell]

You don't have to be a hybrid worker to grind effectively. Hand cranked grinders work well too.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Very true. I have two of them in my shop but don't use them that often.

[@drawlele]

See I've thought about a back bevel or a secondary bevel would be worth it in the long for me, and I've always voted against it for one reason or another. I do hand sharpening for everything, except my turning chisels, and it took awhile to stop getting a rounded bevel but at the same time while doing the back of my plane iron or chisel I would unintentionally put in a back bevel so that kind of made up for my blundering with the primary bevel. So I bought a honing guide then it got messed up so I'm looking into a new one, but I would have to say I dont like them myself not because of the extra step or the extra time but because on my planes I like to easily move across the wood and any extra effort I dont have to put in makes me happier, and with my chisels I generally use them for mortise and tenon work or for bringing something down to the same flatness as the rest of the piece or for blending when fixing drawers or the like. This video was very informative as to why both of these methods are popular among woodworkers and what the benefits are or aren't.

[@tomretterath9809]

Great video!

[@scottswineford6714]

Well done.

[@doublecheese6299]

Why does it take less time to grind a small surface (the secondary bevel) than a large one (the primary bevel)? They both are in full contact with the surface during the grinding process. I assume it's because the downward pressure (PSI) is higher on the smaller surface. So does it make sense to try and apply as much pressure as you can when grinding the primary in order to speed things up?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

No. The reason it takes longer to do the full surface of a bevel is that the cutting grit does not make contact with the whole bevel at once It only makes contact with parts of the bevel and because there's a larger surface area it takes more time. It takes the exact same amount of time per capita of the metal being removed. And as there is more metal being removed on the large bevel then it takes longer.

[@doublecheese6299]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Interesting! Thanks.

[@gopro2804]

Tertiary bevels.....interesting!

[@marshallmurrell4583]

It seems that a 30 degree bevel would be useful on mortising chisels and 25 degree on others. What are your thoughts?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I use to do that but after the chisel test I just did it was impressive how much more edge retention you got on 30 over 25 with out loosing the pressure needed to make the cut. so not I do far more at 30. I still do my carving tools around 20 but those get stropped every few seconds.

[@marshallmurrell4583]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Can you still pare adequately with 30 degree bevel?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

yes, but if I want a lot of detail then I grab one of my carving chisels that are at 20. but that is only like once a year.

[@JeanMinutile]

Rob Cosman actually puts "tertiary" bevel on its blade ;-) The reason I put a secondary bevel on is because it is faster to sharpen just the tip of the blade when you're working on you project and need a sharper tool. I usually regrind the primary bevel in between project and thus the time spend to regrind it doesn't interfere with the project flow. But as you said everyone should do what works for them.

[@张程-p9e]

can I put a back bevel on a bevel up Jack plane？

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

You can as long as it's no more than two or three degrees. If it's more than that then the iron won't be able to catch. The question is why would you do that. It doesn't help the cutting edge and it's just one more step.

[@张程-p9e]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo I thought it might help me fix a rounded edge. maybe a secondary bevel would be better for it?

[@jamessunderland362]

Great video. I’ve just gotten into doing it freehand and I love the slight camber I get on the blade. Feels much nicer than a honing guide bevel. Lots in here I didn’t know ie back bevels. Thanks. Love the channel!

[@jeffdutton1910]

any technique that reliably produces a suitable cutting edge with a reasonable amount of effort is a good technique..."suitable" and "reasonable" being the operative words. An edge that would work well for paring dovetails on the drawers in a jewelry chest would be inappropriate for a felling axe (and vice versa).

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

So true. Well said!

[@glencrandall7051]

True!🙂🙂

[@cbat09]

Useful video, but you wave around the plane iron with the chipbreaker on it and talk about the "back bevel on the chisel"... ?!

[@kennykong6330]

FYI, the David Charlesworth rule trick is never mean to put a back bevel on plane iron. It meant to reduce the prep time because you don't really need to flatten the whole back of the plane blade. You just need to prep the edge. Also, the rule trick is mean to be used on the final grit stone of your sharpening to remove the burr after the initial prep. The angle is insignificant to be make any difference. The real purpose for the back bevel on the iron is to increase the angle of attack for difficult grain wood, so that you don't need to change the frog of your plane and the angle is usually much higher than what the rule trick will provide you.

[@randomscandinavian6094]

Nice informative video! Never thought about the fact that you eventually have to «pay back» the gained time from a secondary bevel. I’m wondering about low angle bevel up planes and back bevels. Wouldn’t that be as bad as a back bevel on a chisel?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

On a LA plane a back bevel is ok because the back is not flat on the work. And there is no chip breaker to worry about.

[@ryanallthewiser]

Yes #216!!!

[@mikeamboy7292]

I completely agree with your approach to sharpening.

[@mr.shellcracker9161]

A grinder is really worth the investment for a hand tool person. I agree with your sharpening style and try not to grind too often but man it’s nice to be able to reset at the grinder.

[@Realism91]

I do a back bevel on my bevel up plane and avoid the secondary bevel to avoid increasing the cutting angle, and it increases the durability a little from it being less of a point but still the same angle. Japanese planes from Lee Valley use the same sharpening method.

[@Nicoya]

I like using a secondary bevel because I only need to use the finest stone to maintain the edge for ages, there’s no reason to use anything coarse to move more metal unless the secondary gets too fat, and because I’m using only the fine grit that takes forever to move the edge. I think where people go wrong on secondary bevels is when they go all the way down to a 300 grit diamond on the secondary every time they touch up the edge, so they take off way too much metal and the secondary turns into a steeper primary. At the end of the day though, people do way too much cargo-culting and obsessing over sharpening techniques. The truth is that getting exact angles and geometries matters a lot less that people think, all that really matters is getting the edge straight and sharp at a reasonable angle and making sure the closest facets to the edge on either side are polished smooth.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Right on. Well said!

[@haroldgolden5437]

Do we want to know why Barbie is doing a Hawaiian dance in the background? I know; don't ask, don't tell!

[@MatthewBuntyn]

He's making something for the Barbie Woodshop (or Workshop, I can't remember) IG account. Probably needed one to get the size right

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Barbie of all trades. Great IG account.

[@radiusnorth1675]

First, thanks for your videos. Credit for the "ruler trick" should properly go to David Charlesworth, an English furniture-maker and teacher how introduced it 'over there" some 30 years ago. While using the ruler trick technically puts on a back bevel, it certainly isn't a functional back bevel. ( about .3 degrees measured with some machinist's tools). It's function is to help insure the back is polished right up to the intersection with the face, this being more important than the VERY minor bevel it produces on the back, and as you pointed out it isn't advocated for chisels.

[@donwood4229]

What happened to the Barbie doll?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Lol that is in an upcoming video.

[@adamwilson4834]

Secondary bevels are for people who open paint cans with their chisels. 😂

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Lol that is a great way to start an argument.

[@kennethnielsen3864]

Third.

[@jimhyslop]

You can't handle the truth! :D

[@GifCoDigital]

I think you got it wrong with the back bevel on a plane blade saying you dont want to take to much off as the chip breaker will then have to be positioned farther up the blade as you cant place it on a bevel. You then go and contradict your self and say the other reason for a back bevel is so you dont have to flatten the entire back of the iron. As the chip breaker needs to be perfectly mated to the iron without any gaps you clearly would have to put the chip breaker onto the nice perfectly flat back bevel. I think Rob usually recommends a back bevel primarily for the fact you dont need to flatten the back of the iron, not so much because it is any easier to sharpen which I dont think it is and have never even heard of that.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

[@GifCoDigital]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo at 7:52 you say the chip breaker cant sit on the back bevel. It has to sit behind it. But that cant happen when you are using this method on an iron with a back that is not flat as the chip breaker has to mate perfectly with no gaps to work effectively. So by creating that back bevel you have a perfectly flat mating surface for the chip breaker which in that case would be sitting right on the bevel.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

The chipbreaker can work with scratches and small imperfections as long as they are not too wide. The problem with the back bevel is it is at a different angle if you want the chipbreaker to fit with it you have to adjust the chipbreaker to that new angle. Otherwise you will have a slight opening the width of the blade that the thinnest chips can catch on.

[@GifCoDigital]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo well a large hollow on the back of the iron is not a small imperfection. If you are using a back bevel specifically to fix that then again the chipbreaker must be sitting on that bevel so as not to create an opening where the hollow is. I do understand that if your chipbreaker is at a perfect angle to sit flat on the back of the iron then adding a back bevel will create a gap along the entire width. But it is my understanding that the angle of the chipbreaker "blade" is such that it only contacts the iron at the very edge of the chipbreaker "blade" it dosent actually sit flat along the entire surface of the chipbreaker bevel. In this case there is no issue with adding a back bevel. Rob never mentions altering the chip breaker when adding a back bevel, and I have watched him set up a brand new plane with a back bevel without ever changing the chipbreaker. Edit: check out his box to bench video around 5:45 he adds the back bevel and then places the new out of box chipbreaker without any alterations. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qwYWt5iNSjhKM

[@mkplante]

​@@GifCoDigitalNot sure if it's more recent, but Rob actually does modify the back of the chip breaker. He uses the iron itself to prop one end of the chipbreaker up to a good height, and flattens a portion of the chipbreaker at a small angle.

[@JohnColgan.]

Length of time to grind away a secondary bevel between sharpenings must be years as you're talking about sharpening away 1/4 inch or more of chisel or plane blade

[@ricos1497]

Couple of years perhaps. Then hours of work to re-grind. Per chisel. It's a bit like when I don't tidy things away after every time I'm out in the garage. After a while it becomes a mammoth task to the extent that I just don't bother and I don't do my hobby as much because I don't want to face tidying. Obviously, you can just buy a new chisel, but I'm guessing you'd probably have a grinding wheel if you were of that mindset.

[@n0z1t25]

you shoul have written one bevel wont cut it :)

[@nikmabc]

Paul Sellers will hammer his iron to fix a bad cup or high edge on the back. It might be in a Q&A video.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

Secondary bevels are NOT put on after a primary sharpen. They are for for re-sharpening. And less than a degree is fine. Just use your final stone. Note that, if you strop, you are doing this anyway. It gives you a slightly rounded edge.

[@BradsWorkbench]

Lol a secondary back bevel 🤣

[@midgardlife]

@_ David _ brilliant

[@JohnColgan.]

As you mentioned Rob Cosman, his latest sharpening"trick" is not just secondary, but TERTIARY bevel. It seems he's going over the top, trying to be unique. He also spends 10 mins resharpening planes & chisels before every use (annoying in his videos as he's repeating the same sharpening action on film instead of getting on with his 3.5 min dovetail ... Now 13.5 mins)

[@billtiffin8298]

32 seconds to sharpen each time way less than 10 minutes if he needs to reset the main bevel

[@ricos1497]

@@billtiffin8298 yep, not sure where the op got his info. The entire point of the tertiary bevel is that it's quick to do, making sharpening less onerous. It's just a honing bevel in effect.

[@JohnColgan.]

Try watching some of his videos, I finally unsub'd during his lockdown drawer making set of videos, he does the full 3 stage sharpening & gets sidetracked so often, surprised anything gets built !! (IMHO)

[@billtiffin8298]

@@JohnColgan. I really enjoyed those videos

[@CECS1]

There are 1000000 ways to sharpen a blade. Some blades are absolutely a "right" vs "wrong" (clipper blades, convex hairdressing shears, specialty tools). But there is certainly a wrong way for all tools.. if it don't cut ... It was done wrong.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

if it does not cut. then it was not sharpened.

[@CECS1]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo hahaha.