Works That Never Seem To Work (No. 2: Liszt's Dante Symphony)

[@petterw5318]

In 1975 everyone would have said that Simon Boccanegra was a Verdi opera that didn't really work, but then came Abbado and showed us it is a tremendous masterpiece. So let's have some hope, although since we live in an era of emotionally repressed conductors, probably we'll have to wait.

[@bbailey7818]

I'm not sure everyone said that. I thought it a masterpiece, though a very dark one, almost like Verdi's Boris, when I heard the EMI recording with Gobbi and Christoff. Not a popular hit like Aida but it's qualities were recognized at the Met as early as 1932 under Serafin, later Panizza, with Tibbett, Pinza, Rethberg and Martinelli. W.J. Henderson then said it was an opera "revealing in every page the hand of a great master." Can't say that about Liszt's Dante Symphony.

[@richdisilvio4591]

As I mentioned in my post, I have stitched this symphony together with excerpts by different conductors to obtain a most satisfying and sublime version of this masterpiece. Sure, there have been critics of this piece from its debut right up to this video. But as you say, there have been many pieces deemed inferior that eventually cut through the noise and attain their rightful place, and Liszt's Dante Symphony IS a masterpiece. No one could write a symphony about Dante's lengthy allegory in total, so small sections had to be used to condense the story line. And Liszt's use of instruments in this work are ingenious, even by today's standards. As for the critics, I say, "Let see them create a Dante Symphony, or any major composer today. The fact that no one else has testifies to how difficult a task Liszt undertook, and how brilliant he was considering the hellish obstacles." Try searching for the the KZbin video "FRANZ LISZT: Enigmatic Genius"

[@r79basha2]

Amazing, what a coincidence; I was looking for your videos on Dante Symphony and watched the earlier one and here we go, a new video addressing the very subject! Thank you, Dave!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you!

[@mgconlan]

If you don't think the "Dante Symphony" works, blame Wagner. As much as I love Wagner the composer, he cheated us out of a potential Liszt masterpiece by talking Liszt out of doing a third "Paradiso" movement. Liszt tacked on the "Magnificat" as a sort of inadequate substitute for the "Paradiso" movement he'd planned all along. Then he added a minute-long triumphal fanfare most conductors wisely ignore. I'd love to see a modern composer write a "Paradiso" movement that would build on the music of the "Magnificat" and finally balance this symphony.

[@richdisilvio4591]

Granted, unfortunately there isn't a single recording of Liszt's Dante that works fully, but as a music geek, I pieced together snippets from several recordings to get a version that works extremely well. Too many conductors don't get down and dirty and dig into the Inferno as they should, and miss its full impact. The tempos in places are too slow and kill the venom and "mocking laughter" in the notes. At the coda of the Inferno, for example, there is a cymbal crash that is crucial to giving a chilling impact that most conductors miss, and there are many other key items overlooked. Even the beautiful moments are often played without feeling, just hitting the notes, but missing the emotion. Liszt was all about emotions, so many conductors are out of their element. I've listened to this in concert, conducted by Kurt Masur, many years ago that was simply amazing! A truly miraculous achievement by Liszt, considering no human would be able to truly re-create Dante's lengthy Divine Comedy in full. This Cliff Notes version hits all the tick boxes.

[@amygoodwin9170]

I agree, no one conductor has nailed the Dante Symphony down, but pieced together, it demonstrates that the Dante Symphony is an outstanding masterpiece.

[@hwelf11]

Your remarks about conductors being afraid to go sufficiently "over the top" with the piece made me think of several conductors that might have been up to the job: Albert Coates Nikolai Golavanov and of course -- Stokowski.

[@amygoodwin9170]

I totally disagree that this symphony does not work. Even without a Paradise movement, the journey Liszt takes you on is perfection, from the depths of Hell to the celestial aura of a Heaven, which no mortal an Earth can ever experience. Wagner was right. Liszt's ingenious writing for full orchestra juxtaposed against those intimate and intriguing sections of chamber-like music are simply off the charts amazing, especially considering when this was written. Seriously, what other composer in the 19th century could have penned something as brilliant as this? Wagner or Berlioz some might say, yet neither did. Liszt did. Bravo!

[@gsdavis91]

Bernard Shaw's review of the Dante symphony is hilarious. I recommend it heartily.

[@richdisilvio4591]

Well, Bernard Shaw had 1 billionth the talent of Liszt, so his humorous critique is worthless. :)

[@Danzig987]

Manfred Honeck plans to conduct the Pittsburgh Symphony in the Dante Symphony this coming season. Let's see if he can find any magic in the work -- I'm not holding my breath, though.

[@ruramikael]

Surprisingly, I thought I was alone in loving the Symphony, but two Swedish composer colleagues are as enamoured as me! I've heard the Dante live thrice, the first time Inferno was perfect but the Purgatorio rushed, second time the Purgatorio perfect (Eötvös conducting!) and the third time it was a great experience with Vittorio Bresciani conducting and images by Dore on a screen in Budapest! It was such a success that they repeated the Magnificat. Best on record are Lopez-Cobos and Sinopoli. And no, I don't enjoy all concerts I attend........

[@mr-wx3lv]

I totally agree with you about live performances. You're taken up by the sense of occasion rather than the details of the performance.

[@howard5259]

Boris Khaikin's recording really made an impression on me when I was young. I like the savagery of the Inferno and also the peace of the Purgatorio but I remember almost being embarrassed by the Magnificat ending. It just didn't feel right. Are you there in paradise, Franz? If so, please send down a better Paradiso finale.

[@bendingcaesar65]

I always thought Barenboim's Berlin version was quite good, no?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Surprisingly good.

[@graserclassical]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I was delightfully surprised by this one as well, some great abandon in the 1st movement from the BPO brass and good motion through the 2nd without over-rushing. Perhaps that being a "live" recording helped, as you intimated about performances of this work in your video.

[@leighwalton1608]

as a teen this piece was one of my gateways into appreciating orchestral music in a profound way! The Liszt sampler disc of the "Classical Masterpieces of the Millennium" box set (on Delta/Capriccio) skipped the Inferno completely, but included the last ten minutes of the symphony, starting with the pianissimo stopped-horn call (letter M) through the end, in Hartmut Haenchen's recording. Boy, no sound has ever sounded more gloriously triumphant than the full orchestra coming in fortissimo after that fragile soprano solo. Liszt never quite composed a real opera, but he sure did understand drama.

[@RepertoireSharer]

I’m with you that the Dante Symphony isn’t one of Liszt’s more successful works. I’ll even agree that both it and the Faust Symphony aren’t Liszt at his most tuneful. But he did write plenty of memorable melodies outside of the Hungarian Rhapsodies. If he hadn’t, some of his works wouldn’t have been popular for so long. Like that third Liebestraume piece. His concerti, the Sonata, the best of his tone poems, and plenty of his original piano music are melodically memorable.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They are motivically memorable!

[@culturalconfederacy]

We should have a box set of works that don't work. Throw in the Manfred and Dante Symphonies, the Djadabary Piano Concerto, Beethoven's 10th completed by AI, etc. Best seller for sure.

[@Warp75]

I have listened to the Faust & the Dante a lot. The Dante has great bits followed by terrible bits & it’s REALLY jarring. I still find it interesting though.

[@Warp75]

@@michaeledwards1172 I’ve been to hell 3 times in my life 1992-93 2003-06 & 2018-22 yes it’s very jarring. Liszt’s Dante is jarring to the point that it’s a bit of a mess.

[@marmelinho3405]

As a conductor, I've been tempted to program the Dante but never did it because of the many reasons here exposed. The Purgatorio is really bad. I wish Liszt had written a sym poem instead, much shorter, with all the elements of the first movement and a better middle section, perhaps deconstructing the evil elements. However, I think the symphony is successful in setting a depressing atmosphere - throughout - perhaps due to the composer's fear of the flames of Hell. Nonetheless, the Dante Sonata is a much more worthy composition.

[@The_Jupiter2_Mission]

I think you tend to buy recordings of Dante's Symphony for particular parts than a cohesive whole. Usually it'll be either the Inferno section or the Magnificat. I do like Barenboim for the Magnificat.

[@amygoodwin9170]

Exactly, when cobbled together, one CAN create a magnificent Dante Symphony.

[@jimslancio]

Sometimes a novelty is interesting because it's a novelty. (Why else, for instance, would anyone listen to Bolero?) Sometimes it's interesting to see how someone struggled with a project that they weren't up to handling, that maybe someone else later handled better. For example, Ralph Bakshi's animated Lord Of The Rings. Liszt's Dante Symphony is that kind of novelty. It's got a slam-bang finish, about a minute long, which would ruin the quiet poetry at the end of the Magnificat (like the last two chords of the Moldau), but which could make an effective encore, after audience applause will have broken the Magnificat's spell.

[@aaronrabushka2180]

Why listen to Bolero? Great orchestration! The work challenges boredom and defeats it more convincingly than any other. Great mounting excitement that goes over the top at the end.

[@leestamm3187]

​@@aaronrabushka2180 An apt description. That's why Bolero was very popular as lovemaking accompanyment when I was in college in the late 60's.

[@arnaudb.7669]

Busoni piano concerto.

[@goodmanmusica2]

And Reger piano concerto

[@goodmanmusica2]

@@michaeledwards1172 they are ambitious but do not keep their promises

[@goodmanmusica2]

@@michaeledwards1172 they intended to be works of great mastery and importance but something didn't work well…

[@bbailey7818]

Dante can be dangerous for composers. Wolf-Ferrari's La Vita Nuova is a real snooze-fest.

[@MickeyCoalwell]

At 3:30 you nailed it: it’s not a musically effective scheme for a large scale work. Even Liszt knew that, abandoning the Paradiso for an anodyne Magnificat finale. Bleh.