Three Composers We Could Live Without

[@tomross5347]

I hesitate to name any composers I could live without, because in the past I would have written off several composers I later came to appreciate (C.P.E. Bach, for example). An interesting follow-up theme would be "Three Composers I USED to Think We Could Live Without".

[@cimbalok2972]

Thank you for mentioning C.P.E. I am still at the stage where I do not appreciate him (I keep imagining an awkward scene in which he disparages "the Old Man" for being "old fashioned" and thinking he could do better) but I hope to eventually give him more credit. After all, he had very big shoes to fill. I like your idea about "3 Composers I USED to..."Georg Philipp Telemann, I used to roll my eyes, I'm now a huge fan. Another is Henry Purcell. All they used to play was "When I am Laid..." - and I am not a fan of lugubrious arias. But having heard more of his theater music: King Arthur, The Fairie Queen, The Married Beau, Abdelazar, etc. he's now one of my absolute favorites. Finally C.M. von Weber, who could rock a Silesian rhythm in such arias as in Kommt ein schlanker Bursch gegangen from "Der Freischütz". More to him than meets the ear.

[@LoveJoyPeace378]

Simply love CPE! A great, great composer!🎉

[@williamdevlin5233]

@@cimbalok2972 Wow. Off the top of my head, two out of my three would have been Telemann and CPE Bach (mainly because I was trying to play one of his compositions this afternoon and trying to find a coherent melody). But there is some good stuff by both of them. I heard a piece a week or so ago on the radio that I liked, then discovered to my chagrin that it was Telemann. Guess there's a first time for everything.

[@cimbalok2972]

@@williamdevlin5233 Our classical music station used to overplay Telemann. In fact, I would sneer that the "T" in WFMT stood for Telemann. But the more I heard, the more I liked. What was the work that did it? Tafelmusik. I had to buy a recording. I've been a Telemann fan ever since.

[@daviddavenport9350]

@@LoveJoyPeace378 As is his younger half brother, JC Bach.......One of Mozart's very favorite composers....

[@maxwellkrem2779]

I should also mention I have a Boulez CD. I only play it when guests have stayed over too long and need to go home.

[@georgenorris2657]

I think Boulez would have understood what you were doing. He said of his own music that he usually needed aspirin afterwards.

[@franksmith541]

Lol that had me falling off my chair! But seriously, the 2nd Piano Sonata is a great work, and a pianist like Pollini does it true justice. The other two piano sonatas are also among the greats in the repertoire.

[@YX4zf3]

But his Repons is quite nice.

[@MichaelFineMusic]

I never considered Boulez a musician ...

[@ellenmmartin]

I generally use the New Viennese School for that, but I may switch, it's a brilliant suggestion!

[@cdavidlake2]

1:13: I thought you were about to say, "Charles...Ives" - and my heart stopped momentarily.

[@valerietaylor9615]

I loathe Ives.

[@marichristian]

Same here. Charles Ives is remarkable.

[@erwinschulhoff4464]

@@marichristian lol i love him as well

[@simonballard6413]

@@cdavidlake2 I could certainly do without Ives.

[@fcamiola]

I'm a huge Ives fanatic.

[@guidepost42]

Rather than banishing this composer or that, for the sake of efficiency, I wonder if we might select a note, say Ab, and ban its further use?

[@bbailey7818]

You can have Ab as long as I can keep G#. 😊

[@jg2977]

As a trombonist I really hate F#/Gb. In the lower registers it’s in 5th position which is in the middle of nowhere, and the high F# is in sharp 3rd which isn’t even a real position. What is that? Just get rid of it.

[@willsingourd2523]

Droll, very droll...

[@curtisunit]

C is the ketchup of the music world. Once the glorious foundation of Brahms’ 1st and Glen Campbell’s Rhinestone Cowboy now a ubiquitous and decadent old key overused for the sake of a quick emotional fix.

[@curtisunit]

I blame Bach. He couldn’t leave well enough alone.

[@maxwellkrem2779]

Anyone remember Richard Nanes? Amateur pianist and composer who issued oodles of CDs on his own label and then sent them to all the radio stations he could. Output is divided between tonal wallpaper and chromatic sludge.

[@HassoBenSoba]

Now THERE'S a good candidate for obscurity!

[@annakimborahpa]

I don't consider the music of Nanes to be inane.

[@MarshallArtz007]

@@HassoBenSoba: I think your wish has already been granted. 😎🎹

[@commontater8630]

Yes. Nanes managed to push a surprising number of his CDs into the collection of my local public radio station. As much as I loved to explore new composers, I found everything of his utterly unlikeable.

[@pmarq32]

OMG -- I almost forgot about him until this comment 🤣🤣. I have a friend who's a fabulous flute player, and quite beautiful to boot. Apparently he was independently wealthy and used his considerable resources to try to woo her, without success I would add. He's completely self-funded in his recording operation and never had to worry about actual talent. Some of us gotta work for a living, and love for that matter.

[@Bachback]

I find it quite difficult to dismiss a composer. First, because I have not heard everything by that individual. Second, and more important, my taste has changed over time, and so I do not want to give up on anyone. As the years have passed, I have liked some composers more and more and others less and less.

[@KenBreadbox]

Right? This thread is INCREDIBLY condescending.

[@1906Farnsworth]

AGREED... many times a work "grew" on me over time. I was even indifferent to the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony at first, a fact that still amazes me. Ya gotta keep looking.

[@ubermo1182]

@bachback Don't be so hard on yourself! You sure don't need to listen to some toiler's entire musical oeuvre just to confirm they're only of interest to pedants and

[@bplonutube]

I think you need to develop your sense of humor. That’s one of the greatest things about Dave Hurwitz. He has a sense of humor.

[@yttrium55]

considering multitudes of composers who couldn't even get a moment of attention, it looks like an honor to be included in this list 😂

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

[@cfibb]

@7:14...Yes, I really needed to have my morning tea come out of the nostrils. Thanks Dave! X-D

[@dpmalfatti]

RE your comment at 7:55 about who would be upset if Boulez's music disappeared, I think many music theory professors, authors and publishers of post-tonal music theory textbooks, and maybe some old-school musicologists (as opposed to practitioners of "new musicology") would be since Structures I and II for Two Pianos are often cited as exemplars of "integral serial" compositional technique.

[@satirical140]

So nobody

[@Nullifidian]

@@satirical140 Then I guess I must be "Nobody". Just me and Emily Dickinson and Odysseus.

[@user-im8gv6eh2y]

Sometimes what you dislike can tell a lot more about you than what you like. Liking everything is akin to not liking anything. Criticizing other works often demands more objective explanation compared to blind praising which often lacks this objectivity. It takes a lot of guts to do this I'm assuming so hats off to you.

[@christopherlandor6056]

When Boulez died, all I could think of was the fact that when Schoenberg died, Boulez (aged 26) wrote a blistering essay entitled "Schoenberg is dead" writing off all of his music, in a thinly veiled attempt to promote himself, which evidently worked quite well. I think Schoenberg has stood the test of time better than Boulez.

[@francis-808]

Schoenberg is eternal. 😀

[@barrymoore4470]

Certainly. Schoenberg's work will never be mainstream fare, but it definitely has secure canonical status by now. I don't think Boulez is really listened to or studied today apart from specialists.

[@roberthamilton542]

@@barrymoore4470 I just blasted Répons in my truck while I drove to work (not in music at all) in central Texas, lol ... we exist!

[@christopherlandor6056]

@@roberthamilton542 I was at the world premiere of Repons as it happens, and I remember it quite vividly, and indeed enjoyed it at the time. I'm curious to know now how many times it's been performed

[@steveschwartz8944]

@barrymoore4470 That's exactly what they said about Schoenberg. Of course, "they" could be right in Boulez's case. But I don't listen for the judgment of posterity. I listen because I like it and in the long run we're all dead so why waste time waiting?

[@howardgilman5698]

I'm curious about which classical Era composers you could do without? I just enjoy the variety of not hearing only the top tier but also the emulators who often have original things to say.

[@MrEdmundHarris]

I periodically go back to Boulez's music thinking that the problem must be all mine for not trying hard enough with it. Initially I always find myself thinking, 'This is such interesting stuff, I really ought to make more effort'. And then by around 10 minutes in, my attention is starting to wander in a big way... Much though I love Walton, I could do without the official bombast like Crown Imperial. The absolute pits has to be Karl Jenkins, though. I once sang in a choir that was going to do a cantata by him. I lasted half way through a rehearsal before deciding that it was unspeakable crap and walking out.

[@lautarovazquez7205]

I agree. And I add a reflection. It's a fact that Karl Jenkins has almost symbolically destroyed the great, noble figure of "British conservative composer". I doubt in calling him "composer", but we can try... His music, of course, is incredibly awful, that's obvious, a continuum of 90sclassical-pop cliches or something like that. Well, despite these thing, we can try and call him "composer", and there're lots like him, so... OK: "composers". But the commercial "success" of this music is even more incomprehensible than the music itself (in fact, EMI recorded and diffunded a lot of this stuff before his dissolution). By the way (reflection two), the general (musical) aesthetic of His Majesty King Charles III (awful) Coronation Ceremonies and Shows showed some subliminal influence of the type of "aesthetic ideal" (laughs, too solemn) that Jenkins music exemplarices: homogenous bad taste, sentimentality at his worst, technical disasters almsot everywere, and so on. Sad for England. Anyway, Jenkins will be rapiddly forgotten, thankfully. And the noble title of "British conservative composer" will survive.

[@annakimborahpa]

So you decided to junk Jenkins, eh?

[@iankemp1131]

@@lautarovazquez7205 You sound like a pillar of the musical establishment that likes to deride Jenkins or a lot of other music that many people actually like and enjoy. So what would you have put in the Coronation celebrations then? Boulez? Tippett? Maxwell Davies? All merrily on their way to oblivion apart from a tiny group of aficionados, along with many other "classical" composers of the last 100 years. Someone summed it up beautifully as "squeaks and farts" music.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I like Crown Imperial...it is sort of a 6th or 7th Pomp and Circumstance March (all of which I truly love!)

[@pikachuchujelly7628]

Wow, Crown Imperial is one of my favorite marches! I find myself whistling it from time to time.

[@davidbo8400]

What have you done David? Even Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Mahler, Schubert and Bruckner have been proposed by some participants here. This is literally apocalyptic. I suppose by tomorrow Chopin, Debussy and Ravel will also pop up. By the end of the week only Froberger and Solage will have survived.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Well, it's an interesting sociological study, isn't it? I outlined very clear criteria for what I wanted to do, and what I got was a pretty much inane and thoughtless hate-fest. Why am I not surprised?

[@davidbo8400]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Well put.

[@wenedsday]

@@kingconcerto5860 LOL

[@656520]

It's a great exersise !

[@henryfitzgerald5857]

Of the big names-I mean, the really BIG names-Chopin and Debussy are the first two I would suggest. (However, I will admitted that this isn't reasonable. To abide more seriously by the rules of the game, I'll suggest two tedious moderns, John Tavener and Arvo Pärt; and for the obligatory old-timer, one of the relative-no-one-cares-about composers: either Louis Couperin or Alessandro Scarlatti. Probably Couperin to be honest.)

[@gartenkauz2152]

At first this topic sounded like fun, but after reading the comments it is more frightening. And wasn't the game actually to give the reason, why you could live without a given composer and not just dropping names?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yep. But as I said, the general response is interesting, even after I delete a good chuck of it.

[@stanlivengood9500]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Just don't delete a wood chuck. They're cute.

[@VuykArie]

Dear Dave, what is your opinion about the Concerto for guitar and orchestra op 72 by Bacarisse? I think it is a splendid party record.

[@brossjackson]

I have heard a couple of Wuorinen pieces that were downright likable (which always comes as a shock). And I basically agree that at its best Boulez is just shimmery atonal Debussy, but that’s kind of nice. The intellectual posturing and bullying that went along with it is more problematic than the music itself. But I wouldn’t be heartbroken to lose either. There’s no shortage of second tier baroque composers to delete. I particularly dislike the ones that are structurally flabby, and would probably get rid of Froberger or something, Or moving into the classical period, I can do without Dittersdorff even though he’s perfectly competent. If Cancrizans has a hunger for sheer volume of music deleted, it’s tempting to offer up Leif Segerstam, as the evil god gets to eliminate over 300 symphonies in one go.

[@muesli_snipes]

I don't really know his music (nor am I qualified to judge it), but my impression of Boulez is that the problem is not so much his posturing (that's very common), but his sincerity. He was, in the opinion of many musicians, a man of great talent, but he seems to me to have been more interested in his perplexing (but sincere, as far as I can tell) intellectual philosophies than in music. I remember that he disliked Poulenc because it was "not progress". What a strange concept, to dislike music based on its date. I'd like to know progress towards what and how do we know when we arrive. I get the feeling that he didn't know either.

[@playandteach]

As someone who really likes Poulenc, either the piano works or the Gloria, or - having LOVED playing the piano for my flute playing daughter, the wind sonatas - that's a good reason to shelve Boulez.@@muesli_snipes

[@xenocrates2559]

This is a very funny video. I have a list of composers we could do without, but it keeps changing, so I'll restrain myself. But it's an interesting exercise just to think about it. Thanks.

[@gardnersmith3580]

Thank you. You know Desert Island Disks. Perhaps this episode could be rebranded as "Music you would take to hell with you."

[@dr2549]

It was until yesterday that I lived peacfully, depraved of Telemann's 3000 compositions. Should I embark now on a Telemann Crusade?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Only if you no longer want to be depraved.

[@valerietaylor9615]

I like Telemann. In fact, I think his Water Music (aka “Hamburger Ebb Und Fluss”) is better than Handel’s. At any rate, it’s less overplayed. I admit, his music can sound formulaic, but that’s partly because he wrote so much. In addition to his Water Music, his “Don Quichotte” Suite is excellent.

[@Lucky_AL]

Telemann wrote some of the most exquisite Ouverture Suites. With all he wrote, judge him by his best work, not his most mediocre. His concerto for Gamba and Recorder is as close to baroque heavy metal as it gets.

[@MrDjango1953]

No Telemann is great and in fact very underrated imho.JS Bach thought very highly of him which has to count for something.

[@arcadianmalerei1155]

@@MrDjango1953 Actually, Telemann was a Family Friend, hence Godfather to CPE Bach, and Bach even used Telemann's Andante (51:G2) for his f-minor Keyboard Concerto 1056. Should also be noted Telemann wrote Cantatas before and after Bach.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

I like how Dave is playing the long game with Cancrizans, identifying his capricious and mutable nature and getting him to see reason. Keep on Him. That said, we all love and worship you, Cancrizans, and know you will do the right thing in the end. (I can butter him up, too.)

[@armandine2]

these three omitted won't winnow my cd collection, sadly

[@timothypoulter8285]

If there was one composer I'd be happy never to listen to again (besides Boulez) it would have to be Sorabji. This lone figure produced vast piano compositions which are truly unlistenable. I tried once and had to lie down in a dark room for several hours to recover.

[@jonathanpowell9715]

I'm one of the weirdos who loves Sorabji, but would never make anyone else listen to him if they didn't like him. You've got to sort of be into that stuff. I don't mind Wuoronin either.

[@CH3CH2OCH2CH3net]

Sorabji's very early works aren't bad. "Le Jardin Parfume" is very difficult, but do-able and when I performed it, the audience really liked it. I know people who absolutely worship the ground Sorabji walked on ("Toothless Toe" on KZbin). My hat is off to anybody who can play Sorabji because so much of it is technically *terribly* difficult to play, and more power to them if they can play Sorabji and bring it off. Personally, I find "Opus Clavicembalisticum", Sorabji's magnum opus, to be mind-numbing in its sameness. Different strokes for different folks.

[@gijsvandermeijden5668]

@@jonathanpowell9715 The great pro of Sorabji is that only those who know at least a bit of the music (enough to get curious) will come, so pretty much 100% of the not too full auditorium will be filled with those who come to LISTEN. Rather than to, you know, chat incessantly during the music, or bring their very small kids who are increasingly noticable bored after 2 minutes.

[@gijsvandermeijden5668]

Try Einaudi. Or Philip Glass more recent 'inventions on no new idea whatsoever'.

[@loathecliff9364]

Dave, how could you have missed off Michael 'Important' Nyman? - Yeuk

[@richardrickford3028]

I knew someone who was taught by Michael Nyman. He said to the class "My basic musical philosophy is I like this tune. I am going to repeat it loads and loads of times" Personally I think some of the stuff he has done like the music to The Draftsmans Contract and his string quartets have value but I have to admit he really is the Mr Marmite of the classical world. For those of you not familiar with Marmite spread from the UK their ad campaign goes "Marmite. Either you love it or you don't"

[@billbryant1288]

I totally agree about Wuorinen. I’ll never forget being at a rehearsal at Texas Tech University many years ago when he was preparing the orchestra to perform a work he would guest conduct that evening. In the middle of total cacophony and chaos, he suddenly stopped the group and let loose a sneering scream at a trombone player, “E natural, not E flat!!” You could feel it across the room-the unspoken response, “Like it . . . matters?” Before or since, I've never encountered such vicious negation of both people and beauty. Ugly, Stupid, Contemptuous. An arrogant impostor. A fool who dressed himself in a polyester king's costume in order to get away with berating dukes and knights. Train wreck of a composer. Train wreck of a person.

[@MichaelFineMusic]

I was producing a recording with Wuorinan conducting his own Bass Trombone Concerto. At one point, he stopped the ensemble and said 'No expression, please.' That rather says it all!

[@YX4zf3]

I really like some of Wuorinen's music. Third Piano Concerto is very good, as are his two piano quintets. No need to scream at a trombone player, though. That's a black mark.

[@alans98989]

At least he had a good ear. I actually heard the complete opposite story about Ferneyhough. Another composer I know described being at a rehearsal of one of Ferneyhough's works where it was obvious that what the musicians were playing only vaguely resembled what's written in the score. Despite this, Ferneyhough himself never said a single word. So, either New Complexity means "just try your best", or Ferneyhough doesn't actually know what his music is supposed to sound like.

[@klop4228]

@@alans98989 Ferneyhough's thing was overnotating so that the performer decides which things are actually important on the page. Like, obviously play it all, but the space for "interpretation" is left to "what things do I make prioritise while learning this?"

[@MichaelFineMusic]

@@alans98989 I produced several recordings with Charles - I'm not sure I agree about his ear (and I would say the same about Boulez.) I recall Charles - politely - asking a musician: 'Please, no expression.'

[@philidor-hm6tw]

The vast majority of composers who have lived languish in obscurity. Some are discovered by musicians who discover some quality in the music. If others also apprehend that quality over time, the music endures. The opinion of Old Father Time is the only one worth taking notice of.

[@bomcabedal]

That's a somewhat over-romantic view, I think, because it suggests that a) musical quality is an objective and b) will inevitably be recognized. Both are debatable at the very least. There are tons of great musical pieces languishing in neglect, while Old Father Time's judgment has certainly beeen influenced by marketing, education, and a host of other things.

[@normanmeharry58]

​@bomcabedal I think this view has traction.

[@kylegann4005]

I was dubious, but from the moment you mentioned Wuorinen I was eating out of your hand.

[@ianm8137]

Dear Dave, I love your descriptions and critiques of everything..beautifully and incredibly cleverly done tongue in cheek but for real...fantastic. I want to tell you who I consider a hugely under-rated composer , he wrote the score for the movie " A Bridge Too Far ". Just wonderfully descriptive ,feeling, uplifting and superb orchestration. John Addison R.I.P.

[@gregg281261]

Can we can add Andre Previn to this list? I saw his opera of Streetcar in Melbourne many years ago. Terrible.

[@Carls_Piano]

I guess I can say I'm glad I saw it, but not sure exactly why I feel that way... Haha, interesting suggestion

[@celloguy]

Totally disagree. It’s a masterpiece, just needs a superb cast. Listen to the Fleming recording with the composer.

[@michaelmiller641]

There are a lot of minor baroque composers who end up being played on radio 3, it just sounds like notespinning! And any composer of minimalist music! I just dont get it!

[@anterix1999]

I could live without Riccardo Broschi, Carl Czerny and Philip Glass. I couldn't live without Bach, Beethoven and Messiaen.

[@sevenlayer8780]

@antero Avila: by the transitive property, living without Czerny pretty much means living without Beethoven. And Liszt. And Schumann. And Chopin. And…

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

@@sevenlayer8780 1. Beethoven came before Czerny 2. Liszt and Chopin were prodigies before they met Czerny.

[@angryjalapeno]

@@thekeyoflifepiano Great artists weren't grown in a vacuum. There are numerous prodigies in every generation so much so that Beethoven tired of being introduced to them. Prodigies have to be nurtured and Czerny nurtured Liszt.

[@anterix1999]

I agree that putting Czerny in the same sentence as the others is a bit of a stretch. But I don't dig his compositions.

[@forresth.6690]

Lose Glass and you might lose Nyman, and anyone who costs me MGV is getting the collected works of Ingmar Carlsson in quad.

[@charlesshephard2764]

Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain is a ±30-page short story, not a novel.

[@barrymoore4470]

Right, and Wuorinen's opera (with libretto by Proulx) was adapted from the short story, rather than from the famous 2005 film, itself an adaptation of Proulx's original work.

[@harmoniaartificiosa]

Wuorinen and Boulez sure, I will go with that. Fasch however has written two works that I come back to from time to time, namely the lute concerto in d minor (FWV L:d1) and a sonata for four strings (FWV N:d3), also in d minor. The lute concerto is fun to listen to and even more fun to play. It has a W. F. Bach vibe to it with some italian influences. Give those a listen too, before giving them the final axe…

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Again, what you like isn't the point at all.

[@valerietaylor9615]

I rather like Fasch, myself. He wasn’t on a par with Bach and Handel, or even Telemann, but his music is pleasant enough that I wouldn’t want to delete him. Actually, I can’t think of a single Baroque composer I’d be willing to delete. The earliest composer I’d want to delete is Clementi. His music was very popular in its time, but is really quite dull. I know he isn’t Baroque; he’s Classical. But couldn’t we let it slide?

[@annabelwaterfield6108]

He also wrote a very fine virtuoso concerto for alto recorder. It's not heard as often as it should be, because it's so difficult.

[@tommccanna7036]

@@annabelwaterfield6108 He also wrote a concerto for chalumeau, which is a substantial part of the repertory for that instrument

[@shadowhegog9798]

If you ever plan on going back to the old format and can only choose one work by Ligeti, I think it should be either Atmospheres or the Chamber Concerto. Atmospheres really is his breakout work and where he took the leap away from the serialized direction of music and decided to work with sounds directly. His micropolyphonic textures aren’t quite as refined at this stage, but the core essence is there. It reflects almost every criticism he has of serialism; that it’s a roundabout way to deal with working with sound, especially when the compositional goal does not match the intent of the serialist process. Atmospheres also brought in other facets of composition at the time such as taking a massive amount of inspiration from compositional techniques in electronic music. The chamber concerto is another potential good one because it really is a culmination of all of his work up to that point. He uses Net structures and maximally smooth harmonic and rhythmic additive processes from Ramifications. His micropolyphonic textures are slowed down and refined to be more melodic, but still retain that core element of goal orientation and gradual, almost imperceptible evolution of the soundscape. He uses quasi canonic structures such as in Lux Aeterna or Lontano to organize and regulate his micropolyphonic textures. Even that Pattern-Meccanico of the third movement can be seen as an outgrowth of his experiments in Poeme Symphonique, which is also seen in his second string quartet. This piece is part of his continuous explorations of how to create a new sense of musical syntax all over again for his musical age. There are so many things in here that make it a culmination of his work and make it worthy to be the one spared by the great god of classical music

[@BanalayerPete1972]

Rock channels do this often. Comments contemptuous of Led Zeppelin or The Beatles will get attention, but it'll peter out quickly. I'm wondering whether the classical equivalents will get the same in the comments here. Boulez is the only one of the three cited that meant anything to me, so I must hear Wuorinen and Fasch asap! Empathy with the underdog or just curiosity? Time to find out.

[@richardscrimger3969]

I love your feisty alter cocker style, and you make some good points here. There are modern minor tuneless loons we can do without. A lot of baroque (and classical) music sounds like itself. But Fasch? Aw, Dave, I like the guy. He's up there with Scheidt and Schein (now there's a recommendation!) .. when I hear his name mentioned on the radio I do not change the station. Unlike, say, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, which has me switching at once. It's kind of insipid to start with and I have heard it so often it makes my teeth hurt. There's a topic for you: overplayed minor classics that still work (Holberg Suite for me, say) and those that are seriously past their shelf life (Bolero, say). Thanks for your output, by the way. You have given me lots of pleasure over the past couple of years

[@gregorystanton6150]

I’m always ready to be contrary - but I can’t disagree here. They’d none of them be missed.

[@legato699]

Do you think that relatively "forgotten" or less known composers, like Graupner - sorry, that's my example - deserve to be "forgotten"?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That sounds like a moral judgment. I'd turn it around--do they deserve to be remembered in comparison to what has been remembered?

[@nigelhaywood9753]

You have a very mischievous streak...to say the least! 😀

[@williamsackelariou1860]

Reminds me of a Tovey essay where he mentions a Viennese Whos Who journal circa1825 There were l think abour 7 Schuberts included but none of them were .the Franz we know and love today

[@1-JBL]

About 1979, with the Two Part Symphony, Wuorinen turned some sort of intangible corner and his music became very interesting to me. I don't care for his operas, but there are many pieces of his that I often return to and would not like to lose: Five, New York Notes, The Golden Dance, Trio for Bass Instruments, Genesis, Mass, Trombone Trio, Microsymphony, etc. So I can't write him off as you can. The guy I CAN write off is Elliott Carter -- I've never been able to get anything out of his music, with the exception of the very early tonal ballets. And I've tried countless times.

[@jppitman1]

Like you I`ve tried time and time again with no success. I admire him such that he lived a very long time and still had works in the pipeline, but it sure was not MY pipeline.

[@sprachnroll]

I really like his first string quartet and absolutely nothing else I’ve heard of his.

[@porcinet1968]

I adore Carter, own nearly all of his works (I love the Concerto for Orchestra, the Symphonia and the Double Concerto in particular) and dislike most American serialists (Babbitt and Wourinen) intensely - one thing one learns very deeply when you work in music for decades is that musical taste is as diverse, weird and variable as music itself is. There are listeners and fans of just about every tiny erudite corner of the musical world. I rate the 14th century composer Solage incredibly highly and there are perhaps a handful of us in the world. The numbers don't matter - they don't affect my love of the work at all. I would like it the same if 10 million people loved it or if only 10 did. The good thing about the popularity of popular music is that it means I don't have to care whether or not anyone likes Puccini or Tchaikovsky (I don't at all - the music sounds to me like Carter probably does to you, "senseless screeching" is what goes through my head when I hear their work).

[@daviddavenport9350]

Carter wrote a rather nice early Symphony that I heard Orpheus play live....sounded as good as Copland of the time.

[@1-JBL]

@@daviddavenport9350 I have the two early ballets, POCAHONTAS and THE MINOTAUR, and they have much the same sound as you describe. He didn't have the melodic gift Copland did, though.

[@IsothermeMusic]

Dave, I have to say that I'm disappointed. I find the premise of this topic mean-spirited. I think of this from a composer's perspective. I compose music, and while I admit that I'm a relative novice and I'm always working to improve my craft, the thought that a composer and his/her work are best forgotten really hits me hard...especially since my name and popularity are not even of a fraction of the status of those who are posed here. Where does that leave me? Shall I just give up and go away? Although I feel every note and passage I compose, am I best forgotten? If I died and every musical thought I've ever had died with me, would it matter to anyone? Even though I know the answers to these questions, not all of us are accomplished enough to have our names in the record stores or in the newspapers or magazines and that realization is painful enough.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I wish I could say I feel sorry for you, but I don't. If you want to compose, then compose from your heart, do what you can to get performed, and leave the rest to posterity. That's how this works. If you don't want to be judged, go do something else. I know this sound harsh, and I'm sorry for that--I really am--but if the need for self-expression and the act of fulfilling that need aren't enough for you, then you need to be in another business. Enjoy yourself and can the pity party. No one will be coming. With that said, I wish you lots of luck and every success.

[@bplonutube]

I feel sorry for people who don’t have a sense of humor

[@cabindweller8454]

But there is so much horrible music out there. Country I could do without. Rap. Rock. Punk. Bluegrass. And yes, classical. If it was easy, everybody would be awesome.

[@donkeychan491]

It's still a noble effort. Maybe one day the AI's will sift through all the long-forgotten music and elevate some of it back into public consciousness. Nobody can predict the aesthetics of the future.

[@RangerB-16]

When you play music you get lost in reverie…So compose to compose not for recognition or money.

[@MDK2_Radio]

There’s really nobody I would name. First, your choices were all obscure to me - I have no idea if I’d miss their music since I don’t know it but might in the future. Second, I can already see most people are naming composers they just don’t like, and sometimes coming up with absurd reasons in an attempt to make it seem like a learned and analytical opinion rather than an instinctive one. I know of composers I can do without but I wouldn’t want to impact someone else who likes them by saying “go ahead, take it all away, who cares?” Just my 2¢.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You are taking this much too seriously. Have a little fun!

[@MDK2_Radio]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I don’t know Dave, I feel like I went through this phase as an adolescent, though it was hating on stuff like Bon Jovi and New Kids On The Block rather than anyone in the classical world.

[@davidbo8400]

@@DavesClassicalGuide He's got a point though, even though I think your list is quite legitimate. And having met and attended composition "master classes" with the last guy on your list, I can safely say he was a source of desperation rather than inspiration. You'd have to be a moron to appreciate his empty and pompous views on music. Still, I wouldn't want to hurt Barenboim's feelings by removing such a fave of his from his shelves.

[@robertunwin1148]

@@davidbo8400 I also attended a masterclass with Boulez. He was an old man by this stage and was in no way pompous, quite the reverse in fact, quite charming really. Yes he had very firm views on what he thought modern music should be but so what? He wasn't advocating that minimalists or others that didn't hold them should be burnt at the stake or anything. And Reich, Adams, Ades and the rest have been just as brutal to him as he's been to non-modernist composers.

[@davidbo8400]

@@robertunwin1148 I suppose he got softer as he became older. The charm of old age, I guess. The man himself wasn't pompous, he could even be affable really. But his views were very condescending (towards Charles Ives, Dutilleux or Jazz to name just a few) and empty (the symphony is an obsolete form). I'm glad you had a different, more beneficial experience, than I had, all said and done. Cheers.

[@maggoteater2290]

Maybe im biased because im a trumpet player but i still hold fasch dear because i played the trumpet concerto a few times 😅

[@iankemp1131]

Fascinating question. It would be so easy to pick three fairly obscure or rarely played composers, but what about really major ones who are frequently played? There are some where I don't warm to many of their works - Elgar and Richard Strauss for example - but they still wrote enough great pieces that I would want to save them. Personally I wouldn't really miss Berlioz or Delius despite all their originality, to go alongside obvious options like Schoenberg, Webern, Stockhausen and Boulez.

[@marichristian]

Delius is a distinctly English composer, like Vaughn Williams. Pastoral seems to describe his music.

[@jackarcher7495]

John Adams. I revere the Cleveland Orchestra, my hometown band, but for the life of me cannot understand why they are so smitten by Adams' music. I cannot think of a single composition by him I've heard, some of them in person, that I would want to hear again.

[@willsingourd2523]

@@erikthenorviking8251 If he did, it would have to be a darkly comical piece. She was strangled to death with one of her own famously long scarves which had trailed out her limousine window and got caught up in one of the wheels!

[@peterpan8147]

Nixon in China is one of my favorites. Seen it several times in March of 1993, when the Peter Sellars production was in Frankfurt. All the singers from the CD! Adams conducting a couple times. I believe he took turns with a Dutch guy. I must add that I love Alice Goodman's libretto. Such a poet! Became an Anglican Church minister later.

[@MrDjango1953]

i mistakenly read ''some of them in prison'!

[@arvidlystnur4827]

John Adams sounds like Pat Metheny, or to be precise, music Pat wrote but discarded in the waste bin.

[@MrDjango1953]

@@arvidlystnur4827 No, Metheny rips off Steve Reich

[@bloodgrss]

You did open the hate fest Pandora's box here for spluttering rage against almost anyone who wrote the music! Proving again how the arts, in general, are not always enjoyed with rational intelligence, but to a great degree emotional cues unrelated to the pure music itself. Many proto-Cancrizan's here-most interesting results of your post, eh!? I do agree with your choices, by the way-look forward to the next slug-fest.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually it's a sobering commentary on human nature, isn't it? It kind of explains to me why so many people voted for Trump. No one wants to pass up the opportunity to express their loathing or give the establishment "the finger," and it doesn't really matter what that "establishment" is.

[@bloodgrss]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Indeed Dave, I think you are correct; unfortunately. There is a marvelous book titled "Whatever it is, I'm Against It." where someone has gathered together many of the worst critiques written about many great luminaries of past and present. It is as astonishing reading, as many of the posts here are. Tho' someone's personal life experience and 'world' may have informed how they react to a particular composer's music +or--, some of the anger and disdain are disturbing. I would only add that (per your Trump allusion), our increasing 'choose a side then attack' society may let prejudice and narrow-minded comprehension/music education play a part as well. But, after you weed out some of the shoutings, there is as always on your channel some intelligent debate and discussion; a thing we need desperately (and with civility) in a challenging society ruled by the sound bite. I always thank you for providing a forum for that, along with the learning and discoveries. All the best...

[@reamartin6458]

You’re hilarious Dave! Thank you so much for your reviews

[@georgenestler2534]

OMG, I have several discs of Fasch and enjoy his music. I most certainly agree with the other two you picked.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Whether you like it or not isn't the point!

[@njlauren]

Bernard Holland of the NY Times said Boulez did more to destroy classical music than any one person in history.

[@josephdiluzio6719]

My three: Nepomuk Hummel, Morton Feldman and Boulez. An interesting exercise Dave thank you. Please reply if you think my three Worthy

[@timothybridgewater5795]

If you'd been following Dave as assiduously as I have you would know that he thinks highly of Feldman

[@jacobmorris3664]

@@timothybridgewater5795 Rothko Chapel is gorgeous.

[@jgesselberty]

Sir Thomas Beecham was supposed to have said, when asked if he had ever conducted Stockhausen, "I have never conducted his music, but I have stepped in it from time to time."

[@ugolomb]

This really gets to a highly personal level. For instance, I personally could get along very well indeed without Rachmaninoff's music. But I would never contemplate depriving anybody else of his music.

[@annakimborahpa]

Marilyn Monroe couldn't have done without the Second Piano Concerto in the 1955 film The Seven Year Itch.

[@catfdljws]

I'm now surprised Rachmaninoff didn't come to mind when I picked my 3. I picked up the EMI symphony + concertos box and it kinda sat after the first listen. it was shocking how out of date it was - I'm reading these pieces were done in the 1910s and 1920s and they felt older than Brahams at times. I admit, incredible melodies (good enough for pop stars to steal from :) ) but...the foundation under them was just so typical 19th century at a time when Ravel, Debussy, etc were pushing harmonic edges. He couldn't claim neo-classical (he was still writing as a romantic) nor Stalin's committees (which drove Prokofiev and Shostakovich into retro) for what he did. He simply was a good Romantic composer 30 years too late to be seen as a great one.

[@feraudyh]

@@catfdljws so what if Rach was out of date?

[@ThreadBomb]

@@catfdljws Fashion has nothing to do with good music.

[@valerietaylor9615]

Audiences still love Rachmaninoff, and rightly so. His music is beautiful! And his second Piano Concerto was also used in the soundtrack to the British film, “Brief Encounter”, starring Trevor Howard, Celia Johnson, and directed by Noel Coward.

[@davidjgill4902]

Didn't Boulez come to the same conclusion about his work by turning to conducting rather than composing? As a conductor, he was important; as a composer, he was not...outside of France, at least.

[@stephentyrrell6941]

Only three? I admire your restraint!

[@ralphmalachowski9116]

My personal favorite for oblivion has to be Thea Musgrave. In 1977, her Voice of Ariadne premiered at NY City Opera to jeers, catcalls, and thrown programs. The performance stopped.

[@annakimborahpa]

Does this mean that the Voice of Ariadne was consigned to a grave of muskrats?

[@bbailey7818]

Very interesting, I didn't know that. I'm fond of her Mary, Queen of Scots and Christmas Carol. Never heard Ariadne.

[@rev.markcarrier1894]

Harold Shonberg’s review for the NU Times is unfavorable to Ariadne but he doesn’t mention anything like catcalls. In fact, he says there were cheers at the end. I don’t care for her work and would agree we could do without it. I also could live easily without Florence Price, whose work I find exceedingly tedious but who is played a lot on the classical Sirius XM channel, and Charles Stanford.

[@annakimborahpa]

@@Tolstoy111 Wow, so she's still doing the Muskrat Ramble?

[@christophertalbot9488]

So you go along with the Mob instead of using your own judgment?

[@GreenTeaViewer]

Don't forget Reger...as Debussy said..."his name is the same backwards or forwards, and his music is much the same..."

[@charityshopguitar8790]

Oh no I would keep Max Reger.

[@MarceloAbelLasta]

jajajaja,genius Debussy

[@MrInterestingthings]

Reger real l y doesnt get s fair shake but he bores me until i cut the music off a nd read about his stuff and his life.

[@charityshopguitar8790]

@@robertwilkscomposer3726 Nice to see someone else who likes Reger.

[@james.1970.o2e]

When you said Boulez, I laughed out loud!

[@aquarius044]

So did I. :)

[@KeithOtisEdwards]

Just who were you laughing at? Pierre or Dave?

[@james.1970.o2e]

@@KeithOtisEdwards I wasn't laughing AT anyone

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Can I suggest Hummel and 9:07 07 Peter Maxwell Davies? I would say that Fasch did write some lovely orchestral suites that sound like Telemann. Agreed about Wuorinen apart from his Reliquary, a large part of which is by Stravinsky!

[@MofosOfMetal]

I love Hummel. Stephen Hough's recordings of his Piano Concertos and Piano Sonatas are deliciously virtuosic and dramatic.

[@HassoBenSoba]

@@MofosOfMetal And Hummel's B-minor Piano Concerto, op. 89, is a masterpiece, IMO. Almost as if Beethoven himself decided to offer advice, so that his rival might compose one work of true stature. LR

[@iankemp1131]

Would be very sorry to lose Hummel's Trumpet Concerto which is pretty much the best trumpet concerto ever written. I think it just has the edge over Haydn's. Alison Balsam's recording is pretty stunning.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

@@MofosOfMetal I'll give him another go!

[@robkeeleycomposer]

@@iankemp1131 I'll give it a shot!

[@papagaio1696]

Music has so much important in my life, that removing the soundtrack nothing remains. Said that there's one musician i don't listen to: Marin Marais

[@JacobSmullyan]

I expected to see Wuorinen on your list. But not all his work should be so easily dismissed. He was a hit-or-miss composer, but I recommend in particular the 3rd string quartet, the horn trio, the first piano quintet, and Time's Encomium.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I wouldn't miss those either, and neither would (almost) anyone else.

[@1-JBL]

The judges who gave TIME's ENCOMIUM the 1970 Pulitzer said they did so because it was the only piece among the entries that they could hear something approaching melody in. I like that work pretty well, but I sure wish it had been realized on Moog synths instead of the RCA synth, which never sounded very good and hasn't ripened with age.

[@jakeyell]

Poor Charles; such a dour fellow. I was part of the cast in "Haroun and the Sea of Stories" at NYCO, and I always felt bad for the guy. He just never seemed very happy. The piece was fun, however...

[@milfordmkt]

Boulez: So much "Importance" accorded to so little. He was dictator of French music thru arrogant personality, theorizing + political connections, embodying all that's (still) wrong with Modernism. The tyranny of Modernism: the overthrow of traditional orthodoxies, bringing artistic freedom & new ideas, ended up substituting one dogma for another, another stylistic straight jacket, music for elites. Stravinsky said Music is essentially powerless to express anything. So why has it had such an "essential" role in the history of civilization?

[@8thman8]

Bingo!

[@wayneforbes4145]

I would have added John Tavener to the list. I just can't get into any of his music.

[@annakimborahpa]

Did you stop by the tavern before listening?

[@leestamm3187]

I come across both known and obscure composers from all periods with whose works I am unfamiliar. I do them the courtesy of listening to a representative sampling and deciding if I want to hear more. There are a great many I find of no consequence, but I still wouldn't wish them to be expunged. After all, someone else might enjoy them. But, in the spirit of fun, I have listened to all 3 of these, and can't fault your selections.

[@HassoBenSoba]

Listen to the magnificent Overture/Suite in BFlat for double orchestra by Fasch (try the recording by the Virtuosi Saxoniae) and see if you might reconsider your conclusion. LR

[@annakimborahpa]

I join the Stammpede.

[@leestamm3187]

@@HassoBenSoba I've heard it, and a few others. Pleasant listening, very much of its era, but nothing that makes me want to hear more.

[@ThreadBomb]

@@leestamm3187 Listen to Fasch's lute concerto (more often recorded with guitar).

[@cimbalok2972]

I never heard of Wuorinen, but I won't look for any of his stuff on your reco. Fasch (sp?) - I think they might have played something of his on WFMT. I probably liked it because I love German baroque music. Boulez? I don't listen to much 20th C music other than my personal favorites, Janacek, Still, Szymanowski, Price, Grainger, Bonds, Weill, Martinu, sometimes Webern. All tonal, big surprise. I probably have heard some Boulez. But it was not memorable. As far as who *I* could do without and why: Josephe Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint Georges. Granted, the 18th C was the easiest in which to write music, you just followed a bunch of rules and out pops a concerto. But everything I've heard by Bologne was done more skillfully by Mozart, Stamitz, Cimarosa, Haydn and other 18th C composers. I heard he studied with Gossec; I never heard anything by Gossec I liked either. I harbor (most likely unwarranted) animosity toward certain one-hit-wonder composers such as Otto Nicolai. Did he write anything else besides that piece they overplay on the classical music radio station? If all his works are as insipid as "The Merry Wives of Windsor" overture, then into the garbage heap he goes. But they don't give us a chance to find out if he was a genius; that's all they play. Finally, and I hope I go to hell for a better reason than this: Amy Beach. I have heard ONE composition by her that I like, Variations on Balkan Themes, and I liked it because I'm a Balkan music junkie. Everything else I've heard by Beach puts me to sleep, or at least into a very bored stupor. Thank you for the opportunity to rant.

[@trumpetart]

I’m a trumpet player, and the Fasch is my wife’s favorite piece in my repertoire! I like it too. 😢

[@mr.wigman]

❤

[@malcolmexton4299]

Dave: I am afraid as Boulez passes the exit door, I'll have to grab Repons, at least the Matthias Pintscher performance. Perhaps Telemann, but saving the violin fantasias. I think at the head of the queue is presently any music written by AI.

[@arcadianmalerei1155]

IF ONLy you knew the Great heights GPT rose to! Even the 4-5 =4-Violins Pieces (Senza Basso) Violin Concerti & Ouverture-suites, and then All the Vocal Works.. Thunder-Ode, Day of Judgement, Resurection, Many many Passions, Kapitaensmsuiken, etc...etc.. All the Fantasias are great especially the Flute set.

[@alexispaterson-c4p]

Le marteau sans maitre.. I can live without it.

[@jacobmorris3664]

The sinuous flute writing in the final section is beautiful.

[@georgesdelatour]

I was wondering. Does classical music have composer equivalents of the poet William McGonagall? McGonagall wrote poetry that was so bad people actually enjoy its badness. The way they enjoy Ed Wood films. The nearest I can think of is Florence Foster Jenkins, but she was a performer, not a composer.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Have a look at my video about the worst piano concerto ever.

[@alanbrookes275]

PDQ Bach perhaps, although it's deliberate pastiche.

[@stefanhorlitz]

Havergal Brian, Michael Finnissy, Hans Pfitzner

[@normanmeharry58]

Oh not Brian. I wasted hard-earned on Brian and rarely listen to it. But some day I might rediscover him... I hope.

[@stefanhorlitz]

@@normanmeharry58 what's good about his music?

[@johnenock7939]

@@stefanhorlitz How many of his symphonies have you actually listened to?

[@stefanhorlitz]

@@johnenock7939 about 5 or 6. And the 1st counts for 4. i know there are three dozens.

[@johnenock7939]

@@stefanhorlitz Well, if you want recommendations (you may not of course) I'd go for symphonies 6 - 12, ignoring the first five and the later ones. But, really, I found I needed to listen to them a number of times before appreciating the Brian 'vibe'.

[@spikehofmann]

When he started to say "I think, personally..." I really thought he was about to say, "Purcell" (as in Henry) and wondered why he so disliked the composer of Dido and Aeneus

[@macklindsey4541]

Noticed it too. I sighed with relief.

[@CH3CH2OCH2CH3net]

When you said "Boulez", I actually physically *shuddered*. He's a marvelous conductor, especially of Debussy and Messiaen. His music is dry as sawdust. I had a composition teacher who thought Charles Wuorinen hung the Moon. My upper limit of a Wuorinen piece is about three minutes.

[@thomassmith3841]

I can't think of any composers I'd dismiss completely, but I have the Hyperion box set (6 CDs) of orchestral music by Granville Bantock, er, ahem, I mean _Sir_ Granville Bantock, and all I heard was a lot of late-romantic stuff with much sturm und drang and rich, well-recorded orchestral colors, but I'll be damned if I could find anything like a memorable melody on any of the 6 CDs, except perhaps in his very late "Celtic Symphony," which used folk melodies--and I tried hard, listening to it many times before giving up. It seemed like a lot of "sound and fury, signifying nothing." The box has been collecting dust for years.

[@halltrain1162]

When Boulez heard Zappa he realized he was hearing music he wished he had composed and became an avocate of Frank’s and settled into conducting his work. Say what you might, Boulez had the humility to recognize genius.

[@Liisa3139]

Zappa❤

[@PastPerspectives11]

Zappa is incredibly overrated also. The truth is, all of these supposedly relevant 20th century composers are just Debussy’s many children strutting about.

[@peeper879]

@@PastPerspectives11 overrated as what?

[@abyssssb913]

Do you have a source for that?

[@rlawrence9838]

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't understand this term atonal: the composers I've heard being called that are not atonal: there's plenty of tone: they are amusical, or amelodic. Tone's the one thing they seem to be interested in. Add anything else and they go spare. Is there a technical explanation I am ignorant of that explains that adjective?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's a term of art applicable to certain kinds of music. If you want to be pedantic and insist on your own definition, suit yourself, but don't be ingenuous.

[@rlawrence9838]

@DavesClassicalGuide You mean disingenuous?.....And I don't know that disputing the accuracy of a single word is "pedantry". I was discussing the actual meaning not just a superficial technicality.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, thank you--disingenuous. I know what you were discussing and that is my point. A term of art means whatever the specific context of its use dictates. Your claim to discuss the "actual meaning" is pointless. Either accept the term's meaning when discussing music, or move on.

[@rlawrence9838]

@DavesClassicalGuide No, the truth does matter, its not just "whatever we agree on". And language is how we communicate the truth. I have no plans on "moving on" from that awareness. Thanks for the advice though.

[@richardwiley3676]

I totally agree with your take on Boulez. I would happily live without Philip Glass. I saw him and his ensemble in the 1970s playing some of his Music in 12 Parts. It drove me crazy, it was so loud and my head was spinning after. I'm not particularly fond of "Minimalism" and could live without any of it, but he is the bitter end for me. Along side him I add Michael Nyman and Karl Jenkins - what pointless composers, they add nothing to my life. From the "Golden Age", I can live without Telemann, every time I hear him I think "so what?"

[@valerietaylor9615]

I think Telemann is worth saving, if only for his Water Music, “Hambuger Ebb Und Fluss”, and his “Don Quichotte” Suite.

[@dorette-hi4j]

@@valerietaylor9615 And especially for his oratorio Der Tag des Gerichts (there's a great Harnoncourt recording of it ).

[@organman52]

This is priceless and you are hilarious. My three [for starters] are Spohr, Czerny and Dittersdorf.

[@ngarber]

Amazing that Dittersdorf was so famous in his time. He did write a very entertaining autobiography.

[@RachaelLongLastName]

But think of the double bass soloists! That would be one of the three bass concertos gone

[@ngarber]

@@RachaelLongLastName Dittersdorf wrote two bass concerti. There are many much better concerti if you are interested.

[@RachaelLongLastName]

@@ngarber huh, I’d only heard of Dittersdorf and Bottesini’s concertos. Can you give me some other bass concertos? I’m not a bassist myself (although I am a violinist) but I’m always looking for more classical music.

[@ngarber]

@@RachaelLongLastName You can easily search on KZbin, but here are a few composers to get you started, in no particular order: Koussevitzky, Vanhal, Tubin, Sperger, Jean Francaix, Serge Lancen, Lars-Erik Larsson, Gavin Bryars, Peter Maxwell Davies, Menotti, Lalo Schifrin, Hans Werner Henze, Franz Anton Hofmeister, Stephan Poradowski, Nino Rota, Nikos Skalkottas, Gunther Schuller, Thomas Goss (very poor student performance of a good piece here on KZbin). Not all of these are stellar pieces. Sperger is the most prolific of the classical period composers, with at least 15 bass concerti. Also, some of the recordings on KZbin are not by what I would consider great players, but at least you get to hear the piece.

[@moshekam3009]

Not following the rules in full, but here is my list: Hildegard of Bingen, Frederick Delius, Luciano Berio

[@Belfreyite]

I wondered when Delius would arise. I would rather listen to some of Delius than some of Mahler and as Delius said “Always stick to your likings - there are profound reasons for them”

[@bbob70]

Hildegard von Bingen wrote some early chant, that has withstood the test of almost a thousand years. And Delius wrote great impressionist music. The only composers nobody needs are so called complexity composers like Michael Finnissy.

[@billward9347]

Ah, Delius! He was on the first symphonic concert I played in, and I barely stayed awake, although this was partly due to the fact that my trombone part consisted of two notes and a couple of 64-measure rests. I've tried his music many times since but still nod off.

[@rloomis3]

@@billward9347 I once worked in a classical record store (yeah, I've been around for a while). I remember we had a disc of Delius's music, with a cover photo of him in which he looked practically like a corpse. Somehow I wasn't surprised by it.

[@jacobmorris3664]

I love all three.

[@kevingabriel7250]

What's disturbing is that, for a time after the war, Boulez spoke for the musical establishment in the sense that many people thought as he did. Boy was that a bleak time.

[@jeremyberman7808]

John Adams (the composer, not the President!), Antonio Salieri and John Williams (is he considered a classical composer?) If he isn't, I''ll put John Cage in his place.

[@xxsaruman82xx87]

John Williams is definitely a classical as well as a film composer; he's written a number of concert works, but none of them are as interesting as his film music.

[@angryjalapeno]

@@xxsaruman82xx87 Agree. I find John William's "classical" works are devoid of life.

[@northshorehighlanders6167]

With a lot of this stuff you have to be lucky enough to have performed it. John Adams is good!

[@giulianocomoglio]

...for sure, here I find some good strategy for making us click. Thanks for the inspiration Dave. Left a like.

[@grafplaten]

The idea of eliminating all of Pierre Boulez' compositions is such a horrifically wrong opinion. (The piano sonatas could go, and I wouldn't miss them, but how can one not appreciate "Le Marteau sans maître," "Le Visage nuptial," "Sur incises" or many other quite listenable and enjoyable works of his?) Why can't you eliminate Adolphe Adam or Fromental Halévy instead, if you need a French composer?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Because they are infinitely superior and vastly more important.

[@stepanvalek3363]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Wow, you really don't like him, Dave, do ya?

[@silviofernandez585]

@@stepanvalek3363 Dave is 100% correct. Adolphe Adam or Fromental Halévy beautiful music!

[@samuelstephens6163]

I offer these emphatically as totally personal choices. Actually eliminating them might cause untold damage in musical history...but, Henry Cowell for sure. Meyerbeer, maybe I wouldn't miss musically, but he's a great hero-heel. Then Stockhausen, a guy whose name is more memorable than the titles of his works. I'll take Fasch trumpet concertos any day.

[@rodrigoherreramunoz9248]

Thanks to your video I discovered Wuorinen’s music, fantastic composer!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Have fun!

[@spikespa5208]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for informing me about Wuorinen's efforts. Listened to some and ......where's that "not interested" button?

[@richardcleveland8549]

A CLEAR example of reverse psychology at work!

[@johnmarchington3146]

I feel you are going to upset a lot of people with your third choice - and that probably won't worry you one iota.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Why should it?

[@johnmarchington3146]

No reason whatsoever. We're all entitled to have an opinion. I had two friends, sadly no longer with us, who loathed Le Sacre du Printemps, whereas I have long regarded it as one of the towering masterpieces of the 20th century.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@johnmarchington3146 But you're right. It's the difference between fact and opinion. Let's not mix the two. I dislike all kinds of things but Sacre's importance and iconic status is beyond questioning, whether you like it or not.

[@markzacek237]

May I nominate Louis Spohr? Was there ever an acclaimed composer who is less memorable? I’m still working on my other two but Spohr leads my list.

[@arneheinemann3893]

My first guess

[@dennischiapello3879]

Judging from the few works I've heard, his MO appeared to be to plagiarize a recognizable work by Beethoven and strip from it anything distinctive or interesting.

[@wilhelmvandervyver642]

His clarinet concertos are essential works for the instrument, IMHO

[@sansumida]

Nonet ! So cheerful 😅

[@torterrakart7249]

His nonet is awful

[@MrUnidyne]

One of the few positive things I can say about Boulez was that he was a strong, early influence on Frank Zappa. And I'd rather listen to Zappa's works than Boulez's.

[@wpark1991]

This is a very fun and hilarious topic! The ones i can live without are mainly the avant gardists like Boulez, Wuorinen, Stockhausen, Cage, and Xenakis. I will say that Phillip Glass's ballet Glass Pieces was one of the worst music and ballet I've ever seen. I personally found it extremely boring and repetitive. Just my personal opinion

[@rloomis3]

I once heard a live performance of Glass's _Music in Fifths,_ and quite literally thought I was going to lose my mind.

[@sergueilarionov632]

Furtwangler is your guy then. Hard to understand why his music was written.not sure was it a splash or not.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not. He was a failure as a composer in his lifetime.

[@sergueilarionov632]

@@DavesClassicalGuide well Rodion schedrin may be, Edison Denisov (even so I like some of his stuff). Tikhon khrennikov, probably Glier and. So on. Splash is relative

[@00billharris]

Thank you for giving Boulez a justifiable trashing

[@robertwalker2052]

I was counting on you adding Kurt Graunke to this list based on your review of his Symphonies.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

He wasn't even a composer.

[@Carls_Piano]

I'm going to get some hate here, as I invariably do when I share my feelings about this, but Copland is 100% top of my list! I am still open to anyone that can change my mind

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Why should anyone want to change your mind?

[@tomfinot623]

I like most of Copland, but he wrote Connotations for Orchestra in 1960 just to prove that he could be as horrible as the current composers at that time.

[@robertwalker2052]

The Piano Variations are good. The Third Symphony is good but marred by self-quoting (Fanfare for the Common Cold--- I mean Man).

[@GSHAPIROY]

While I don't care for Copland in general, I think his song "I Bought Me a Cat" is one of the greatest comedic masterpieces of the 20th century.

[@dmoulton963]

If you look at concert programs in the real world, Boulez hasn't existed for decades. Musicians and their audiences ultimately decide what they want to play, and what they want to listen too. As a cellist playing in orchestras for the past 40 years, I'm glad that a good chunk of the music I studied in school, like Boulez, is being voted off the island by musicians and listeners. The same can be said for Schoenberg, Webern, and (unfortunately) Alban Berg. Bruckner also seems much more rare than he was 40 years ago, which I can only applaud, having suffered through his Symphonies back in the day.

[@philpaine3068]

I was very fond of Wuorinen's "Time's Enconium" when I was a teenager. Haven't listened to it in many years, but I suspect it isn't without merit.

[@danielfaben5838]

Yes. This was a piece of the moment. The synthesized simplicity was mesmerizing. I may be wrong.

[@Ingrampix]

Eventually, I put my lp of Time's Encomium in boiling water and moulded it into a usable flower pot (already a hole for drainage). True story - I'd bought it aged 14 on the back of a Gramophone recommendation.

[@mikereiss4216]

It won the Pulitzer prize so it's hard to dismiss him for that alone.

[@Ingrampix]

And Donald Martino won a few years later. Funny in retrospect though not at the time. I expect Cancrizans would smile, and then banish the entire school of American career academic serialists to their own private planet.

[@terrencebucker]

@@mikereiss4216 Respectfully disagree-Pulitzer committee can certainly get things wrong, any such collective body can.

[@edwardcasper5231]

This sounds like the kind of "reverse" psychology that could appeal to a Cancrizans. 🤣 I have to give my "lizst" some thought.

[@Liisa3139]

"I have to give my "lizst" some thought."🤣

[@thricegreatart]

I would get rid of Telemann. Sorry but I just don't get any memorable tunes or vibes at all from him.

[@JeanPaul-Hol65]

Not even the Trumpet Concerto in D? It has a wonderful debut theme! ❤

[@williamsackelariou1860]

The donkey by the ears mate Thank for respecting your critical faculties and putting them above mere fashion and fads Couldnt agree with you more

[@robh9079]

What's with the massive Spohr vote?? I find him subtlely really inventive in the chamber works. That inventiveness is perhaps obscured by the smooth presentation of his music - the result of a consumate and masterful technique. Thumbs up to save Spohr!!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Nah. They have a point. Masterful technique, maybe, but generally devoid of inspiration. Even Spohr himself recognized this when he talked about his string quartets being, essentially, "over composed."

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Spohr's clarinet concertos are amongst the greatest in the repertoire, imo - rivaliing Mozart's. He should be saved for those alone, at least!

[@HassoBenSoba]

@@CloudyMcCloud00 And his Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra, op. 131, is as good as any work of the era NOT written by a certified master. LR

[@bbailey7818]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Not only that, I've always thought Gilbert's line, "by Bach interwoven with Spohr and Beethoven" is much better when Brahms is substituted for Spohr.

[@ThreadBomb]

Spohr was best when writing for unfamiliar groups of instruments. His piano trios are very fine (and influential on Brahms). See also his quintet for piano and winds, and his octet and nonet. And then there are the double quartets and the string sextet! The quartets aren't bad, but there are too many and they mostly sound like Haydn.

[@charlesvorones3612]

This analysis is brilliantly done!! I don't know all the composers; but the dialogue is so well written and absolutely hilarious!! What a blast!! Thank you!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're very welcome and thank YOU. P.S. I don't write down any of this. It's all spontaneous.