Why Front Outer Axle Seals Don't Really Work

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

First off, forgive the flickering lights. They shall be replaced as they are a bit distracting. Jeep Outer Axle Seals for the Dana 30 and other front ends of a similar design can vary quite a lot in price. There are cheap Chinese clones for around £20 and name brands over £100. Its good to know what your getting and how it works before spending the money and outer axle seals cannot work they way they are indented due to the deflection of the front axle shaft when turning. The axle shafts on front ends with U-Joints can never spin perfectly central due to the nature of the steering knuckle and U-Joint causing deflection on the shaft. This deflection causes the seal on the outer axle seal to be deformed and worn away into an oval shape making it impossible to form a seal around the shaft, keeping water in the housing. If you do run them and tread water regularly I would pull the seals regularly to release the trapped water or just don't run them at all. Thanks for watching.

[@SarahSmith-hd8kd]

Hello, I love the videos and have been watching here and there for years. I have owned and built by my hands ( highly built that is ) 8 of these XJ'S. My question or confusion here is, that based off of what you said the inner of the axle shaft would do the same thing at a smaller tapper or angle then as well, as there is no way for the shaft to angle and wobble out an oval without the opposing or opposite inner side of the shaft side doing it as well, but just not to the same degeree, correct? I ask this because it seems that what you pointed out would almost be saying hey your inner axle seals will do this as well so change them regularly as well. That is what I was wondering about and am curious about, and as to what your thoughts to my train of thought reasoning or conclusion, based upon your statement might be? Thank you in advance, assuming you reply🙂. 🇺🇸 🤝🇬🇧

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

@@SarahSmith-hd8kd Hey, thanks for watching and for the comment. if you clamp the diff housing in a vice and put the shaft in you can actually move it a lot. The inner seals are placed as close to the pumpkin as possible as the movement there is so minimal. This is presumably why its designed this way. From what I have read into this 'deflection' as they call it is pretty normal on all U-Joint designs like this. You must be right, the other end of the axle must move also, it has too. I guess its just very minimal to the point where its has very little effect on the seal. Perhaps that's why the shorter shaft seals seems to fail more, i don't know tbh, just speculation. I guess it seems logical for a long shaft that slides into a not so tight splined hole to have some movement when there is a rotatable joint at the other end that changes its axis. There is nothing keeping it central at the knuckle end so how can it possibly remain central. I watched an animation of it once that explained it all but I cant find it again. It was over 5 years ago. Thanks again, and I am by no means an engineer!

[@SarahSmith-hd8kd]

@@WorkshoptoWilderness Oh wow, thanks for that response, I just got to read it, as I expected a delay in response due to your being across the big pond. That is a great intelligent response and further elaboration on your part sir 👏. I believe you are right, because as I stated I've had and built 8 already and lmao, you were spot on your assumption that the short end shaft always leaks before the other driver side will. Thank you for the knowledge, sounds like it is time for some expensive $RCV$ shafts for me, when the old chromoly ones are toast or in need of service. Thank you for the response and your time and I am by no means an engineer but rather a jack of all trades and a master of none🤣.👍

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

@@SarahSmith-hd8kd I'm no expert by a long shot but just trying to think about it logically. That's pretty cool that you have build so many xjs. You must know a thing or two. Those RCVs are absolutely tough as hell by the looks of them. Would love a set of those. Thanks again for watching and for the comment!

[@robr4662]

Good video, well spoken and informative. Generally, when I'm in my Jeep, I try to avoid deep water/mud if I can but if I need to submerge my front axle I usually change the diff oil after the off-road trip and make sure the water is drained from the tubes. It's extra work but if you want a dependable 4x4, it's necessary.

[@WildernessCall]

The danger from what I can see with those axle seals is that it can trap water inside the axle for a much longer period of time improving the risk that there will be seepage into the bellhousing.

[@WintersGhost243]

I thoroughly enjoy how matter-of-fact your presentation is in your videos. Great job

[@Yugo-CA]

Great video I learned more in this video than I have in 4 others I just watched.

[@m2useinu]

Thank you for the video. Did the brakes on my Jeep today and noticed that axle moving around inside the tube and thought it was toast.

[@adamcarty8970]

I changed my Shafts to ones with cv joints instead of ujs and I can’t use the standard axle seals or the China ones because of clearance issues with the new cv boot! so that rubber thing you have may be my only option. Great vid mate thanks from the uk 👍🏼

[@Antivist_]

Very good information, I never realized the axle shaft moved at all, but it makes sense that it would with the torque of the u joint turning. For a while now I've thought about trying out the outer axle seals. Now I'm glad I never got around to it. Sounds like it might be best to keep running with no outer axle seal.

[@rickwalt8767]

Very informative. I learned something today. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Keep up the good work.

[@danf1862]

@9:50 - The solution would be to have a bearing at the end that keeps the shaft centered and not flexing. Then a seal would make sense. I don't think outer seals are necessary, even in heavy mud situations. I suppose if there was an issue, sleeving the tube would be a solution that doesn't require constantly pumping and dumping grease. It would just tighten the tolerance and not let as much material down the tube. But the inner seal is still the best defense that's already doing all the work, even if you use outer axle seals.

[@robertbryant7771]

That would actually be a perfect solution on a D30 with CV axles, rather than u-joint axles. U-joints by their nature have an elliptical rotation in any position other than perfectly straight, hence the appearance of directional flexing/ wallowing. And why any outer seal solution will have its shortcomings.

[@Stryder-mc1lu]

I'm in the process of replacing the seals in my 96 XJ bought the outer seals you refer to , and just had an intuitive sense that they might not be the answer. Thank you for clarifying my apprehension with factual information. I admire the work you have done on your vehicle, and appreciate the insights you share. Great Job !!!

[@Velster]

I appreciate this thorough explanation and example of why not to do outer axle seals.

[@wojtasmax]

thank you Mike for your excelent service, its good to have some local knowledge on the old diesel jeeps !

[@Winningpk3]

Another great video on your XJ i never even knew that there were supposed to be seals on the end. Really appreciate your time and effort to share your experience and knowledge. Massive respect to you Mike.

[@allmycarsisbroke]

There aren't supposed to be seals on the end... that's kind of the point of discussing whether there's a worthwhile purpose to run them, and why all the examples he discusses are aftermarket products.

[@gdecol3762]

Excellent video! Now I know why my outer seals leak! Thanks mate, great work!

[@41GarageandGrill]

Excellent video. I’ve never considered this and will think differently as I am getting ready to change mine now. Thanks for sharing

[@LinusScrubTips]

In the US look for compression joint sealer! ACE has them I think. Not sure of sizing though.

[@kevinpritchard3592]

Thanks for the heads up and advice, it is much appreciated.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Thanks for watching

[@RobbieStott]

Exactly what he said. Mine wore out and I bought mine from Summit USA brand name ones. Tube was full of damp dirt when I realised and was probably worse than it would've without them.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Its a nice idea but it doesn't work. The axle deflection makes it impossible. Thanks for watching.

[@soldier42mp92]

Great video ! I’ve actually shared this video . I own a JK and actually thought about getting them however your actually right thanks for a great video 👍🏼

[@andybird1583]

When you said “ Sweden is a dry country” I though to myself thats how you keep your Jeep so clean and rust free. Even down to the caps on the UJ’s. 😀

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Yeah its a very dry climate. Although you have snow the humidity is extremely low. You can leave bear metal outside and it seems to remain rust free... Thanks for watching mate,

[@andybird1583]

@@WorkshoptoWilderness I always watch your videos bud. I'll get that email sent soon.

[@alangrant5278]

I wonder if greasing just before you get into the water would help. Whether anyone can be arsed is another question

[@miketee2444]

Sealing a 90 wt gear oil is one thing. Sealing something thin as water is almost impossible once you are at full spin and steering back and forth.I have found I try to avoid water above the hubs if possible. I definitely limit my time in deep water.it kills starters, batteries and it definitely finds it's way into places we never even think of.i think the original design that allows air and water to come and go is best for most. If you really like tinkering then by all means try to seal the goop out.

[@ScoutPL]

I just swapped axle shafts on my 94 Wrangler with a Dana 30. I didn't worry about seals at all. No point in them. I'm not doing beach landings with the Marine Corps...

[@funwithunklewilly4069]

Thanks friend for saving me from wasting money!

[@corheeremans2820]

Hi Mike, I both those from Wish, cames from China, i already sendet you this pictures. thanks for these video again, thanks mate!

[@DestDroid]

Absolutely fantastic info

[@rsvp6]

I wonder if the front hub disconnect system would help? That way the axel would not be spinning all of the time wearing on the seal.

[@DRTJon]

I run a disconnect hub on my XJ and have not noticed much wear on the alloy style seals I’m running. However it’s been a few months since I’ve done any maintenance on them and now I want to use gumminipples 😎

[@andrewsatchwell5780]

I notice at 3mins 20secs that your uj has been tack welded in. Interested to know why. Great vid, very well explained

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

It was to stop them turning in the eyes. I got the tip from some offroad enthusiasts years ago. I stopped doing it over the last couple of years when i went to chromoly shafts and full clips. Those tack welded U-joints lasted for years to be fair to them.. Thanks for watching.

[@heatmizer-jim6762]

GREAT vid! Thank you! I just picked up a couple outer seals and U-joints for my D-30 on my 93 Wrangler. I think they gave me inner seals instead of outer ones. Thanks again! :)

[@larryt5064]

Thanks mate, great content

[@Seto3993]

Awesome, will definitely go this rout

[@Tonigr]

Thanks for that gumminippel tip! Found that sleeve in black for 1.07€ on eBay.de (called "Siphon-Gummimanschette" - plumbing supply, siphon/odour trap rubber sleeve).

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Ah nice! Good find. Its a nice cheap alternative to an axle seal for sure.

[@ifixboats5066]

I bet pressure built up. And the way the lip is shaped on the inner seal. It would push the water past the inner seal

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Your most likely right

[@DRTJon]

In the US we generally call any rubber plumbing fitting “Fernco” because that’s the major manufacturer of them here. They usually have worm drive hose clamps on them and are used for joining pipe. However, I’m wondering if these style are not an approved design for US plumbing code because I can’t seem to find them. I will report back with a link if I do!

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I guess something like this maybe - www.ebay.com/itm/283855200452?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D232335%26meid%3Db55d8c352662454ca27535092b8a9848%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D371325928494%26itm%3D283855200452%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb%26brand%3DPremier&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A283855200452b55d8c352662454ca27535092b8a9848%7Cenc%3AAQAFAAACANwvRF9W4BoqwhOrBQzT%252Bjtxxnb%252F3RYe3bCCTu0PJOQ058%252Fzdih3c6TWaSU%252BhbygMprFBkzYT9tIzjMHYdtQt5JWt2KqGZF41QV2UTXn6rHVPSsbA2zUcQ50eg2pARFog%252B1xADYL3cMsnd9gEepuFRwO7Mdtw3EjwluSmU%252FmdCa%252FiYwOlrCTuqup6OgrKasRG5Xo46iosV1ifu79z2%252FXoDAK88l89WRLBRElBaS%252FQe61Sw79TDdc5%252BBjBF7Gt4Sn3FoluLukUJCqgbaCRSeMyJeHjNLjj7i6k%252BCcdwX1wlE%252FzOA%252BFGppmV5sala5tCaqW1vBBmoRON%252BWpmqdHW0iPehflDV5EKb9wee9dHYK%252Fx8UdEuoXNQWgPUlHDXe3jMwJ5iNFy7wTsntSj5hD1JNiiaPfnqdvtUcm3keF%252BONj0hAdjNJO2l%252B6%252BITzRi2z3eqFGlTVKs0R81ufRr5t5Rbfs6QwIjmlQGfvtSP%252FUsCSfDoes73PHMnrB%252Bg1CKuq4qM4rHjs2a0U4jccm9DJyG%252F0ddZYt7mc6w9yn4NsaKYFMpVgWwbvkVBG5Z9%252BJm9i5pHBQVhOdVJtwX5ZJy%252Be7%252F%252B56ZC02Hc0Ox0D9WAFSb924LQdBUfR79kUM%252F89uGf%252BK0zc8tXk7cC2v5FK9zcsdDnw%252FbtepRuGoRVXbfQDjbvLd2J%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=1311938464 Wow, that's one hell of a link. This might not be the right size!

[@DRTJon]

Yes “Fernco Compression Donut” is the closest thing I can find however I am only seeing a 2” to 1.5” as the closest size. I believe it needs to be 2” to 1.25” for it to work

[@rcars2]

@@DRTJon I tried a couple vendors around me in Colorado (Grainger, HD Supply, local plumbing supply house) and similarly just got lots of worm clamp reducers. Did a little Google Fu and I came across these and as luck would have it this vendor will ship to the US. Ordering myself a set for my 2000 XJ as I type this. Fair warning, shipping isn't cheap on these but not awful in the grand scheme. plumbing4home.com/drain-waste-pipe-rubber-adapter-reducer-white-50mm-40mm-to-32mm/

[@AndrewBrowner]

@@DRTJon if you can only find 1.5" ID maybe grab a foot of 1.25" ID fuel hose/radiator hose, put that onto the axle shaft and slide it to where the rubber donut rides on it, smoosh grease all over it and might be even better than the proper seal since itll be rubber on rubber with grease lubricating it rather than rubber on steel

[@DRTJon]

@@AndrewBrowner now that’s what I’m talking about. Great thinking!

[@woodsnwater28]

I completely understand the ocd about the jeep man um the same way but I also know she will get me where I need to go if im ocd about it .😄 thanks for this info saves me from getting them I've thought about the issues you're dealing with and thats honestly why I havent got them .awesome.video.

[@NoName-OG1]

That was really informative, thank you!

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Thanks for watching!

[@Biggeon]

Great information as usual!!! Here in Argentina I have a hard time getting certain parts. One of these ones is the rubber stopper you see through the spring ( orange one), in my jeep is lost and I really don't know how to even look for it! If you can share a link to it or it's name it would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks a lot and keep up with these great videos!!!

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Ah the bump stop frsport.com/products/omix-bump-stop-front-84-01-jeep-cherokee-xj-18280-18 Here is a link in Sweden but I'm not sure if they ship to Argentina. Thanks for watching

[@Biggeon]

@Workshop Wilderness Adventures thanks a lot ! I've been looking for these ones for my zj, I believe they fit perfectly but I will confirm with them! Thanks again!

[@DRTJon]

Fantastic, thank you!

[@051biohaz]

Great video, thanks for the upload...any chance you would change out the front axle for something with a different design?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Thanks for watching! If I managed to get something better then I would certainly consider changing it out. I quite like the HP D30 though, its pretty strong for a small axle.

[@DRTJon]

People love to hate on the “Turdy Thirty” but it’s really a fine axle if you’re keeping the gearing are 4.56 or numerically lower. If you plan to push it hard there are some things to consider but swapping it for a true D44 or other upgraded option is a lot of money and/or work. The little 30 as Mike said works quite well if you treat it right and it’s such a low profile it’s hard to beat that. IMO XJs do best on 33 or 35 inch tires so there’s really no need to swap the axle out for that.

[@forreststrong797]

I think those outer axle seals are made more for trailered rigs that don't see any or much on road driving.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Makes sense

[@serjkeshish7]

Thank you for the video 👏👏

[@4RnrRick]

As a mechanical engineer that has wrenched and built various 4wd's, it makes me wonder if the working centerline(or node) of the u-joint is "perfectly" inline with the axis of your ball joints??? If you could shim your stub axle 0.25mm inward, how does that affect the offset when steering. If it makes it worse, I wonder if you have a spare junk outer that you could machine off 0.25mm to test the idea going the other way. My guess is the offset is just the stack-up of tolerances in manufacturing and assembling multiple parts. Enjoying for videos, from here in Oregon, USA.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

That's certainly a cool experiment. I have a small lathe, perhaps I can make a shim and test it out. I don't fully understand it apart from in its basics. Do you think it would make a big difference? Thanks for watching!

[@4RnrRick]

I seen the lathe, which got me thinking you might have the tools to test it...My brain tells me if it was perfectly aligned - it should not move from side to side. Unfortunately you can only add shim, So if thats the wrong direction it makes the process much more difficult to remove shim or take a skim cut on the stub axle flange. I'm sure its just manufacturing tolerances of how each part fits together and stacking up +/- 0.004" (0.1mm) could start to add up on the axle C, Steering knuckle, Unit bearing and stub axle bringing your combination of parts out of "perfect alignment". It could also be the misalignment up and down also (inline with the ball joints). But if your seeing 3mm of movement, then you should be able to easily reduce that to something less which would increase seal life. Rick

[@laaaaaaaalaaaaaaaa]

Since the axle shifts in the opposite direction in which the knuckle is turned, this indicates that the axle needs to come outward, probably quite a bit.

[@abrahambarkhordar5572]

thank you for helping me save some money! I was about to purchase

[@DumbCarGuy]

I'm not too sure if i would ever tack weld my Ujoint caps to my axle like you did.

[@helmut-h.8938]

Thought about exact same thing as i saw!!! But i did even worse Job, it is possible! Disassembled for greasening, popped 1 pot apart as it got stuck/jammed while pressing it in. I broke one bearing pot literally in 2 pieces.

[@wvjeepguy8178]

Pretty common thing to do for offroaders.

[@heatmizer-jim6762]

Good afternoon, at least where I'm from...What is the brand name of the all rubber outer seals you use? I keep coming up dry trying to find them? Thank you, in advance!

[@alale923]

I appreciate this video!

[@NAPA798]

IF YOU TOOK A CALIPER TOOL TO THAT RUBBER PART IN INCHES WHAT WOULD IT ACTUALLY MEASURE OUT TO? I BOUGHT A SET AND ITS WAY BIGGER THAN WHAT I SEEN IN YOUR VIDEO!

[@johnhill484]

I want an answer to this question as well!

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

To the blue rubber gummy thing? It's a 50mm outer diameter so that's 2 inches

[@samuelpeirce7878]

great video, thank you

[@crkaiserman1442]

Hi, I would like to know How your Rubber Blue Seals are working for 1 year if they don't have Grease aropund to protect it ?? Please, can you answer this doubt ? thanks

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

There still on but not sealing anymore much like the red ones I had on before. Outer axle seals are all bullshit like I said in the video. It's impossible to seal the shaft when it has so much deflection, hence why the factory seals are located at the diff because its the part of the shaft with no deflection. You run outer seals to minimise dirt, that's all, they will never seal water

[@russiaKGB]

good info thanks 🤔

[@chadhalsted604]

why don't you try and find one of the old school dana30 outer axle seals (slinger)? Those old 4x4s took a lot of abuse and we are still pulling parts of off them to "Upgrade" our Jeeps. 🙂 They practically do the same job your gummi flesh light is doing except the water can drain out all the way from the bottom rather than holding water in.

[@gsxr1000pheen]

What about the new terraflex seals. Or the RCV AXLES they have a ball joint not u-joints i wonder if the shaft still moves when turning..?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I think the shaft will still move. Its physically impossible for it not too without a bearing mounted inside the axle as close to the knuckle as possible. The axle just slots into the diff splines and then its free floating all the way to the knuckle where there is movement, hence why the engineers put the diff seal as close to the pumpkin as possible. Better to run nothing and just change the inner seals.

[@Beary98]

Trying to look up a version of these in the U.S. and struggling.... any idea what to call them here

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I tried to find something and unfortunately I had no luck. I have no idea what they would be called and despite many Google searches I didn't find anything similar. You can always order the cheap Chinese replicas of axle seals. Maxpeedingrods sells them

[@Beary98]

@Workshop Wilderness Adventures Hey thanks for giving it a whirl Love the channel

[@adrianll8289]

So... I bought and installed axle seals after watching your videos and now I have to replace them with some cheap plumbing parts?! 🤡 Fair enough, will test it when these fail. The fart sound at the end was quite unexpected, almost drowned in my coffee 🤣

[@OUOAT]

Find yourself three O-rings that would fit between the shaft and the pipe sleeve, pack it with marine grease, and then see what happens!

[@kevinc9934]

are you low pinion or high pinion on your d30 front?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I'm high pinion on the D30.

[@CD38325]

How do you get those in the states?? I hate my cheap aluminum seals I got

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

When I first made the video I tried to find an USA equivalent but sadly I had no success. I actually don't run seals at all now, they just kept trapping water.

[@CD38325]

@@WorkshoptoWilderness honestly that makes the most sense

[@josesanchez-vi4js]

Would anyone have a US link to these sleeves? I’ve tried searching with no luck.

[@BigTBuilds]

I bought those aluminum seals and they’re too darn thick. My 13 jeep wrangler jk. Couldn’t even spin the hub

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Ah that's a pain! The quality seems to vary a lot. I just don't run them anymore. Thanks for watching.

[@hksjoshua]

Do you have a US link for those gummy seals?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Sadly not. I cant find them in the USA. There is a US link for somthing similar but there are also some guys chatting in the comment from the US with some links.

[@lastmanstanding1954]

hope you can get back to bushcrafting and camping and hunting. i miss those days.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I dont miss filming it to be honest but I enjoy doing it now without the camera. Went out with the bivi last week and it was peaceful. This channel isn't about that so no comments like this please

[@zapman2100]

How often were you greaseing the Alloy axles seals? Also did you use Quality Marine Grease?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I greased them almost weekly on the second set. I used a fairly standard lithium based grease, not the best of course but provided the seal was actually sealing it should of been fine. I think the issue was that the axle deflection was creating an oval shape in the seal so the grease made little difference. They really should design them with a softer fatter seal material that can deform with the axle deflection and not get pushed and worn.

[@michaelarchangelthehammer]

Never had any issue with debris on any Dana front end,,anyone else?

[@nickstone1905]

Got a link?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

I have a European link in the description although in the USA I cannot find them.

[@nickstone1905]

@@WorkshoptoWilderness I need a pair 😫

[@greg1629]

I've never seen these offered in the USA. Never seen them at all. Hopefully you have a link in the description.

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

There should be one in the description, hopefully it still works.

[@greg1629]

What are they called again? Maybe they have them on Amazon.

[@greg1629]

The rubber ones

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

There called gummy nipples here lol. I think some kind of pipe fitting is what your would want. I looked high and low in the USA to find an alternative but with no luck unfortunately

[@hilldwler420]

Go with a Dana 44 or a Dana 60

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

Unfortunately, both are impossible to find here in Europe.

[@kylegoldston]

Did you weld your u-joint caps?

[@WorkshoptoWilderness]

It was a tip I was given a long time ago. Apparently stops the caps pushing out so easily if the ring clip is under a lot of pressure. I wouldn't bother doing it again.

[@kylegoldston]

@@WorkshoptoWilderness You'd Need a grinder to change the u-joint, Or a good file at least. I used to sometimes cut the cross out with a torch and drive the caps inwards if they were Super rusty. The tiniest little speck of accidental weld between the cap and ear would result in a bent ear and junk shaft.

[@fredfleming261]

👍