World of Warships - Captain's Academy #27 - Citadels, Armour and Penetration Mechanics I

Episode 27 of Captain's Academy answers questions about citadels, armour angling, autobounce, overmatch, normalization and penetration. This comprehensive video should answer the majority of your questions regarding where to hit and why your hits either pen or bounce. So sit back, relax and enjoy!
fnord_disc's Armour Penetration Curves: forum.worldofwa...
If you have questions, please leave them in the comments section below.
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[@widgeman]

This game is a hell of a lot more complex than I thought

[@viveremilitareest9281]

Crazy, right? When I started I thought this was a kids game that looked cool and would be easy enough, oh boy was I wrong. They've done an excellent job of creating a simulator/war game

[@skydragongaming7840]

i actually was dissapointed on how difficult this game is. but now im starting to read up some stuff.

[@devo229]

What so difficult about it just stay with your team stay out of range and lead your pass

[@raunaqgupta33]

As i type this i am downloading this game. I currently play wot and have over 10K battles in it and thought understanding WoW will be easier for me. I am so glad that i actually took previous advice on WoW forum to visit this channel. These videos shows how much more complex it Armor layout is in WoW than in WoT and I am having difficulty to understand it.

[@hey....]

Raunaq Gupta do you think I should try WoT before continuing WoW?

[@melaniecastalano6012]

I just want to be on the red team one time. Whenever I play this game, the red team always wins!

[@Bigbeef1999]

Im having that day today....

[@oceanman6327]

@Mohammad Karter and Dnny Maverick ARE BOTS IT IS A FALSE SITE

[@merlyn5038]

Saw in Twitter how hard you worked on this. Means a lot that you will do this for your fans.

[@ichasegaming]

Thank you :) always trying to provide all of you with the best possible information so you know what's happening to you in game

[@Mavairo]

This is probably the single best captains academy video to date, hands down. Great job.

[@ichasegaming]

Thank you :)

[@wildboar222]

Seriously, thank you for this video, I've been playing this game since CBT and all of this stuff still confuses the hell out of me

[@ichasegaming]

Hopefully I've been able to clarify a lot of information for you

[@Zarkaithnia]

Thank you so much for this!!! Now I can really learn how to use my ships. Wish WoWs had an armor view system like Warthunder. They gib all the info and you can actually simulate the shell hitting the armor at various angles. Thank God thee are people out there like you and the 2 you mentioned in your video to present us with the data. Hats off to fnord_disc for this beautiful data set. I am not used to people making such professional ones.

[@kerbalspaceinstitute]

Your series has been incredibly informative - thank you! I just wanted to add that at 17:15 The relationship of effective armor thickness (T) versus incident angle of shell (A) goes like T=t/cosine(A), A between 0 & 60. (t=actual ship armor thickness) 27:44 The graphic shows the shell refracting into the ship side, i.e., turning into the denser medium from air to metal (I never considered that a shell would do that, but it makes sense since other thinks like light and mechanical objects like sound and rolling object obey Snell's law as well).

[@uconnjames]

These captain academy videos are very technical, informational and helpful. Thank you for the hard work!

[@DarkThomy]

Here I am on ps4, multiple years after discovering your great channel, coming back to once again learn how citadels work..!

[@Thumper770]

So, basically, after spending half an hour watching this, I got a LOT of technical knowledge I didn't have but, as far as the battlefield goes, my take away is, shoot at the enemy inside 7km, at the waterline as close to 90 degrees to the side of the target as possible. Sweet!

[@patrickhughes8164]

Coming back for a refresher. That elusive citadel.

[@anlize3422]

Awesome and very informative video Chase! I now understand better why the bloody hell I'm getting a lot of overpens and some bounces.

[@ichasegaming]

Yay :D also overpen video coming soon

[@iamscoutstfu]

.1 x10^4 lol Why not just say “kilometers” ? Awesome table, little hard to understand at first until you see 10^4

[@JetstreamKage]

does WoWS water auto stop shells? or can you aim below the water line at close fire to go through the water and hit citadels below the water.

[@kajarslibrary5404]

You can but its extremly difficulty. The shells use ALOT of penetration when entering the water. Probably not gonna work on battleships but i have seen and felt it alot in battleship vs cruiser scenarios. 14" shell hits the water next to your cruiser, still lost 10k health to a citadel hit underwater.

[@JetstreamKage]

Karlas LP has anyone figured out the math for the penetration drop? and does distance traveled by water get calculated or just instant drop?

[@sciencethygod]

Also remember shells arc, so most of the time aiming right at the water line, will result in shells entering a ship just above the water and arcing downwards continuing their path under water.

[@kajarslibrary5404]

Fumetsu Kage Also, i think the fuse of the shells gets activated once it hits the water. So there is a hard cap on how far the shell can go before it goes boom.

[@fjhatsu]

Sometimes when ship turns their "Red part" which is the part of citadel under the water will exposed so you can shoot at them.

[@standardrobloxian7212]

the auto ricochet mechanic is the reason why, after i fire i turn my battleship towards the enemy im shooting at. then turn back when im reloaded

[@TheAnoniemo]

Great video Chase! Can't wait to study all the intimacies of my opponents citadel.

[@ichasegaming]

Thank you :)

[@GeneralFresh]

Thank you chase! Your videos are always entertaining and helpful!

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome!

[@Anihe]

Best wows-theorycraft vid this far!

[@kratos9888]

I had a general idea of how the pen and overmatch system worked but this helped a lot, thanks. Although i cant play right now cause my cooling fan decided to be not cool anymore and my computer just overheats lol. But, hopefully ill be able to get back to it quickly,

[@cristianmicu]

just a side note- normalization is explained backwards....normalization process increases the penetration angle in favor of...the shell

[@lllmywz348]

Feels like American BB from NC onward as well as CA from Baltimore onward have a higher chance of landing citadels when you shoot a enemy's deck or superstructure instead of the sides because American superheavy shells have high arc and will basically drop on the deck and pen the weaker deck armor.

[@FromGamingwithLove0456]

Awesome. Thanks again for the elaborate descriptions!

[@Reuizi]

the first professor of WoWs to post in yt :D i know there r plenty more in forum, website, but meh tldr (sorry) & thnx for the video

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome and thank you

[@yumpinyiminy963]

Very well done. I'm an not sure I can remember all of this for every ship especially in battle. Good to know though. Thanks, Puddahead

[@johnathonkogelman9398]

Thank you iChase - Great information and presentation!

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome :)

[@Zyprus]

Thank you for taking the time to make these tutorials.. i have learned a lot from them.

[@rx95jur]

And now the playlist for the series needs to be in the video discription as well :D

[@ichasegaming]

Yup, I'll do that! Thanks for reminding me

[@SuperCookiemonser]

These videos make me realize how bad I am at this game and that I should give up becasue I will never get good.

[@JafuetTheSame]

i think the issue with pensacola is plunging fire from bbs rather than that tiny space above the waterline

[@redtitan75]

i always thought iowas where easier to citadel than nc, thanks for explaining the reason behind that.

[@ichasegaming]

You're very welcome :D

[@egorney]

the 90 deg mark should be considered the bow of your ship. 0 degrees is broadside. other than that this is an awesome video and was really helpful.

[@zam023]

It felt like I just sat thru a Physics class >_< Well that explains why I was able to one shot an Iowa in my Amagi at point blank from about 20deg angle at the waterline, right under the 2nd gun turret. That thing's citadel is so high above the waterline.

[@vladimirvojtaml]

The penetration mechanics and shell behavior is extremely simplistic combined with the dispersion it's really weird how BB caliber performs. On AP with heavy cruisers you get same problems with strange overpens and not being able to citadel when you should be.

[@vladimirvojtaml]

Plus also the internal damage damage is kinda off when you hit the citadel you should automatically damage turret or knock out engines no citadel should be this "clean" because the shell explodes in vital part of the ship. These mechanics should be reworked asap.

[@TamrenStarshadow]

Something that irritates me to no end about this game is that turrets count as modules, and module HP does not count towards a ships overall health. So if you make a perfect plunging fire shot into a battleships turret the shell punches through the roof down into the magazine and... nothing. Oh sure you can knock the turret out for 20 seconds or whatever, but often you get a penetrating hit for zero damage and don't disable the turret. You'd think it would do SOMETHING to reduce a ships HP. I mean if you just clip the superstructure of a ship with Battleship AP and damage nothing but a handrail you still do 1000 damage.

[@vladimirvojtaml]

Tamren Starshadow also one of the frustrating mechanics the 0 dmg pens of modules that everyone is fine with... You get this weird some parts (turrets) are damage imune when they shouldn't be and some aren't when they should (destroyed superstructure funnels) it's weird and frustrating.

[@ichasegaming]

I will explain parts of this in the next video on overpenetration mechanics :)

[@jediineducation]

great vid ichasegaming

[@admiralcollins7516]

Really good video, thanks

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome :)

[@ymer234]

yes, very well explained and not as boring as the last one ;-) Did you considered recording mouse pointer? I dont know if I asked you before.

[@craigkulbaba7564]

Great vid Chase. Personally, I think this or a slightly condensed version should be required watching for anyone playing past tier 3. LoL The only thing you didn't cover was loss of pen on AP shots over distance. Do you have numbers for that??

[@ichasegaming]

Yes, if you check the armour penetration curves, you can see further distances and what the AP pen will be

[@BigZach1]

Very helpful video, thank you!

[@michaelmets3895]

I hate to point this out but the north car is one of the easiest ships to cit up close or far away lol. just go in training room and test it. I understand what your trying to point out but I've never had a problem citting a NC at any range and it's known to get cit almost every time it's broadside

[@michaelmets3895]

seriously though this is extremely misleading. I just got 4 cits on a NC at 0.9 km

[@FunkMonk1111]

wow! didnt kno there was so much in it. v-technical vid. lv the info n thx.

[@shiranuikatagawa8570]

CHASE CANT WATCH STRAIGHT MY ISP CANT HANDLE THE QUALITY OF THAT MAGNITUDE :P

[@ichasegaming]

Sorry, it went HD, so I released it, need sleep, stayed up all night to finish this

[@dubsy1026]

This came out at precisely 2:00 o clock I the UK

[@MammothPaige]

Great info, Keep them coming.

[@ichasegaming]

Thank you :)

[@Mariuspersem]

Really useful, nice video :D

[@ichasegaming]

Thank you :)

[@anderskorsback4104]

Speaking of armour penetration. If you're in a Russian gunboat and shooting at max range against enemy cruisers or battleships, is it worth using AP? I'm thinking that with the high arcs at max range, there'd be a high likelihood the shell would hit the (lightly armoured) deck from above.

[@anlingu2043]

So calculating the overmatch is to use the real armor number but not the angled armor number?

[@MultiSniper38]

good work

[@BattlefeildTroll]

thanks allot Chase!

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome! :D

[@bjornf.193]

Hi! Can you explain the "german" turtleback armor, too? Is it visible in the viewer?

[@oseansoldier]

Great video Chase! Sadly I cannot use any of the information in it till around Thanksgiving or Christmas. This semester of college is going to be brutal. Sixteen hours of straight Mechanical Engineering classes. Imgunnadie

[@ichasegaming]

Good luck Osean, will be here when you get back, plus you'll have a ton of Captain's Academy videos to chew through

[@nottoday3817]

thank you, chase

[@ichasegaming]

You're welcome :)

[@Darkhorse393]

could you disscus sometime shooting into the superstructure on a bow-on target and how it either bounces or pens?

[@ichasegaming]

Hmm, well if you hit the conning tower, you'll bounce shells there. As for penning/overpenning that'll come in an overpen video soon

[@Hangs987]

Can you make a video explaining the German APshells?

[@labestiapolitica3438]

Why can't my Mutsu 410 mm AP shell not penetrate a Bayerns 380 mm armor belt?

[@mckaylundtuttle7962]

What tier battleships do you start to get constant citadel hits ?

[@torresmuoinc4205]

Great tutorial. its always good back to basics and learn again what ur doing wrong. lol.

[@Darthkell0]

Q: Is it possible to penetrate through water? or is a shell terminated on water contact?

[@ichasegaming]

Yes, shells continue for a small distance underwater

[@hey....]

I know that this game is extremely advanced and realistic, but are all these features used in-game?

[@lordkoth9724]

Given autobounce mechanics, what exactly is going on with the Moskva? People have definitely noticed it bouncing Yamato shells when bow on, relatively reliably. According to armor viewer, it only has 25 mm of bow armor, which should be leaving it vulnerable to be overmatched even by 15" guns, let alone the 18.1" guns on Yamato. So has someone figured out what is going on in this specific instance, or is it currently unknown?

[@hitoshisawa8479]

they want Russia to be op but same with yamato they made the Barbette a weak spot so other ships would have a chance

[@TheSnakerino]

Awesome vid m8! ;)

[@Shiftry87]

What if the citadel armore is protected by armore belt sitting outside it. Do u add the citadel + armore belt and then se if your gun caliber is higher or lower? I did some fast looking around on diffrent ship types and if i understand all of this correct. Exluding torps (dident look on those) then there is nothing that can citadel a BB other then another BB as a cruisers 152 mm main gun is nowhere close to the citadel armore of a BB. In fact not even a tier 10 us heavy cruiser Des Moines with 203mm main gun can penetrate the tier 3 us battleship South Carolina with 279mm citadel armore belt.

[@142jimmy]

Ahh!, now i can complete my mission.

[@Yui_187]

make a mod that puts a protractor in your screen

[@ichasegaming]

Hahaha, that's just magic of video editing :P

[@whirboowhind2696]

+iChaseGaming what is this dark sorcery

[@zam023]

By the time you finish reading the protactor your target would have ran away LOL

[@sanfordlee7535]

There is actually a mod where it shows the angle of the ship you're locked on to, relative to you. Might have been helpful for this video actually

[@protshaker8602]

I've read somewhere in the wikiwows that between 18k yrd (16Km) and 30K yards (27km)n there's such a thing as an immunity zone (not invulnerability to be clear) because of the angle the shell will plunge at. it's probably what you're trying to get to at minute 19.00. But at the same time worldofwarships.eu/en/content/guides/training-advanced-3/ shows that at max range shells will plunge into the deck and pen ( ofc it could overpen and at that point i'll just DESKCHAN). EDIT : Decided i'm gonna link the source of the immunity zone i was mentioning earlier, which has everything to do with what iChase is talking about. wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration. But i'm not gonna stop to that, and in order to help make iChase videos even greater (thanks mr.strimmer btw). I'm linking a forum post that does the exact same type of calculations and graphics about pen values over distance (pen curves), applied to a lot of the most relevant ships in the game. forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/59528-armor-penetration-curves/ Hopefully changes haven't made them obsolete. Now, my question is, as i can't find the equation they use anywhere. How do you estimate then pen value of an AP shell ? I mean, obviously it's gonna be something like Mass(due to caliber) x shell velocity x or / something arbitrary they decided was good for the game. Am i lacking info ?

[@Glenowan]

I felt the pain when seeing Iowa getting x10 citadel hits lol

[@robinekhoodekful]

+iChaseGaming there is a mod in Aslain's mod pack that show you an angle that enemy ship is for you. You should check that out. It would really help you :)

[@ashhalcyon]

I just started playing World of Warships and I thought that the “citadel” was just another name for the bridge or whatever it’s called lol. I’m not very good with boats and ships... :)

[@Cailus3542]

Dang, you don't waste time. Nice job. ^_^

[@ichasegaming]

Nope, don't waste time :) if I can provide the best information I will be the first to do so

[@hazoish7670]

The citadel for the Iowa got changed

[@ivanstiffy2091]

Great video iChase. Any chance of adding info about overpens? I seem to be getting these all the time in my Battleships against 0 degree side on cruisers; aiming at the waterline and I just overpen for a few thousand damage ;( Is it just a case of my guns are too big and I should be using HE? The shell normalisation patch seems to have made overpens much more of a problem (for me at least).

[@krislam2603]

do one for how to beat fighter mod independence on a 122 ryujo

[@lippokratis490]

for calculating the effective armor just use this : armor in mm / cos (angle) = armor effective in mm easy right?

[@apporu2753]

wait so what was good about American cruiser AP? I was hearing from people it got 1 more degree of normalization.

[@ichasegaming]

It's the only cruiser AP that autobounces at 67.5 degrees instead of 60 degrees. So your shells won't start to 100% autobounce at 60

[@oxoboro]

Really nice and well explained video! It helps a lot! But what if you shoot above when the ship is coming at you, at the turrets for example? will you damage it by hitting its deck? I've had a few matches where i was shooting it there, because it was angled and i still managed to do some damage ( not all the time though). Is it better just to shoot HE when they are angled, or simply aim your ap shells somewhere else? Thanks!

[@ichasegaming]

You can still do some damage if you manage to hit superstructure parts or if you hit at just the right angle and it went through the deck for some penetration damage. Otherwise when bow on, throw some HE or seek better angle to fire AP

[@Jagdpz5]

Were those charts done in MATLAB?

[@theraven8989]

I have to disagree on the north cal being hard to citadel up close ... I've been on both ends of the barrel and it's actually very easy do dish out citadels or to receive citadels from up close

[@theraven8989]

from up close when I'm against a north cal (under 2 km) I usually get lots of citadels if I am aiming under the 2 forward guns

[@wowfan532]

That's exactly what I though when I watched that part. I can citadel a broadside NC from any distance, it seems.

[@ichasegaming]

There's a chance what's happening there is that your shells are plunging just enough to hit the pretty weak citadel roof and penning there. However from a pure flat shot at close range, it's most likely not going to citadel (also BB RNG...)

[@raysschoko]

Hi IChaseGaming Thx for this Video! a nice video that puts it all together! As we all know you are a teacher i have a problem and you may be able to solve it. Why is it impossible to citadell a BB in a Scharnhorst, while in a Moskwa it is possible?

[@dariocr4232]

Why in my client the detailed result of hits does not show? I mean I only get hit confirmation; but not if it penetated, bounced or over penetrated. How can this be activated? Thanks

[@ichasegaming]

Go into settings, controls, detailed ribbons and damage counter

[@cyphi474]

Thats explain why did i get penned frontaly in New York. Thx, i was wondering whats going on.

[@paraklash8912]

Gr8 vid, learned a lot !!!

[@ichasegaming]

Thanks :D

[@HKPiax]

What's the music at the beginning?

[@IFBJets]

Good info but getting the right lead and the right RNG makes it all seem random anyway Thanks for all the hard work though!

[@doctorlygrain9495]

How do you do a training room?

[@Twannieboy]

Pepsi is wrong, there are citadels in tower and smokestacks as well. Actually everywhere ;) But it's about time they implemend this feature.

[@XkriskrossX]

I hear the citadel is so everywhere that it's even even on the lifeboats, the searchlights & the anchor

[@whirboowhind2696]

+Josh Friedman did you know that it also extends out the ship and into the sky. It's actually historically accurate

[@XkriskrossX]

The_Meme_Lord_ Himself Very powerful

[@fabianb8157]

+iChaseGaming hey well I tested some things in battle and if I according to the compas angle for 60 degrees then I don't get citadeled yet I do get penned, so If you are in a Iowa for example it has a relatively straight side would it be better to point my bow straight at the target or keep them at my left or right at about 60 degrees, if so isnt it better to angle for 65 degrees so you do counter the little bit which is not straight?

[@damin1916]

very helpfull

[@azizharimaulana3702]

for some reason, sometimes i can citadel NC quite easily from my Tirpitz.

[@ichasegaming]

Yeah, if your shells plunge through the thinner upper belt armour, then all u have to worry about is a very thin citadel roof and bam citadels

[@MICROKNIGHT3000]

Inmagine a match without HE and just the explosions which does much less dmg

[@Kokonochip]

Wow, the Pensa is even more pathethic armor wise than i thought. Almost any BB gun will overmatch it.... Well, at least the guns do some decent damage .... i guess ....

[@TheJBftw]

Its not so bad when angling at 60 degrees. The problem is the extremely poor concealment due to the tall tower mast. To add insult to injury that tower mast had Radar which WG decided the Pensacola could do without. Finally the Pensacola in its last 1945 (Hull C) refit had the tower mast cut down and reduced to a small tower. WG felt like Hull C was in no need of being included ingame...

[@Kokonochip]

JohnnyB ftw lmao what .... do they hate the pensa for some strange reason ....

[@chowtom5174]

Goddamn. Not sure if USN BBs are worth it anymore?

[@MrATFRaptor01]

So. If you are tier higher up to tier 8 best to get in close for max advantage?

[@ichasegaming]

Not always, i'll have an overpenetration video soon that should provide some additional useful information

[@mm5zx]

Hello.From where i can download the mod where i see my angling degrees? Tnkx

[@mm5zx]

Plus , its legal ?

[@StaK_1980]

Question: how can I have this training map? I guess it is custom but how can I try it out in game ?

[@buzbom1]

The "Training Room" is usually found in Aslain's Mod Pack, but recently it's not working. They haven't updated since the 27th of last month. But that's where to find it and set up mock battles of all sorts with bots or people, before going out and making a noob of yourself. LOL I know...believe me. aslain.com/index.php?/topic/2020-031-aslains-wows-modpack-installer-wpicture-preview-v022-14052015/

[@niederbayer1199]

Hi! Can you tell me something about the mechanic of waterhits? I saw a replay where a tirpitz got two citadels from bullets which hit the water first. So do you know something about this mechanic e.g. How much armor provides the water and so on Greetings from Bavaria

[@lightspeedvictory]

Ok, now I'm pissed!!! WG got the citadel size of the Iowa (more specifically, the part that's a above the waterline) completely wrong!!!! 💢

[@kratos9888]

triggered much. calm down its just a game lol. Thats why you dont go full broadside. They cant make everything 100% accurate

[@Pitchlock8251]

Very interesting breakdown of these mechanics. Untill RNGesus give you a big fat "Fuck you" and you watch your 14" guns on a Kongo bounce of the broadside (not angled in the slightest) Phoenix at less than 10 km. RNG is god.

[@SS-kh1ox]

You must worship the RNG Gods more.

[@Pitchlock8251]

S SC Yea apparently

[@Airwave2k2]

What gui mod is that show penetration bounce and so on on the enemy?

[@anderskorsback4104]

It's the base vanilla game, it's always been there for me. Maybe it's turned off in some setting of yours.

[@Angel33Demon666]

What about the shells breaking? Do they cause spalling damage?

[@Sicklehead88]

To keep a certain level of consistency, I don't think they implemented that feature. I also don't think that they implemented failures of the fuses of AP shells. so when AP penetrates and doesn't overpenetrate, it will explode inside and do the usual penetration damage.

[@Orkel2]

AP shells used to do a little kinetic damage even on bounces back in the closed beta. But they removed it because destroyers could do massive damage overtime simply by bouncing small shells off belt armor.

[@ichasegaming]

No they don't right now

[@mikeadams3656]

Really enjoy your videos and have learned a lot about wow and how to play it "better" but I was wondering if you had seen Nathan Okun's information on armor, projectiles and such? Most of this stuff is over my head but I have learned some things from his formulas on armor penetration, angles and such. It's at navweaps.com and very technical in nature but it has "real world" testing data and even though I don't understand a lot of it I found it interesting and informational. Again, I really enjoy your videos and am seriously considering becoming a patron of yours!

[@Zenn3k]

"Over penetration" is a stupid a fuck concept. "Oh, sir, we got hit...it seems that it penetrated us completely went out the other side..." Captain: "Oh, so we're fine?" Crew: "No, we have a giant hole and are taking on water....". If anything, OVER Penetration should result in x3 damage, as now there is a GIANT HOLE IN THE SHIP.