World of Warships- Did WG Make Things EVEN Worse AGAIN?!

Hey guys! Today we talk about the recent changes to submarines! Enjoy!
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:05 Surface Ship POV
9:11 Submarine POV
16:33 Overall Thoughts

[@benth290]

Mate, you can STILL shotgun, idk where the sentiment of 'not being able to shotgun anymore' comes from, but shotgunning now just happens from more than 3km out, WITH improved torp damage. It's an overall buff.

[@SapphirosCZ]

You cant easily shotgun DD´s. Everything else is a fair game, just like WG intended.

[@sealordmountbatten]

You can't pop up from 2km and blast someone out of the water anymore

[@EMPTYJ4RH34D]

Shot gunning from 2km or 3km is still shot gunning. They get a map of their own where nobody else can come. Tho they do have less torpedo's then torpedo destroyer, 6 in front and 4 in back is 10 total, with reload of 45 seconds they can launch 20 in 90 seconds, Shimikaze can launch 15 in about 110 seconds so guess sub is better there too. Better concealment, great periscope speed. No my opinion stays the same at this moment, WG created a monster which they can't get rid of anymore, there is almost none interaction from surface ships to subs, and wargaming don't want to listen to the player base about any real nerves that are needed to equal the battlefield. Lower periscope speed, all hydroacoustic search show subs and less pings and/or ping doesn't last that long. Cruisers and battleships should all have bombers against subs and range of ping equals range of planes !!

[@bebeandjohnnotsonomadiclif5287]

@@sealordmountbatten True but you can at 3km

[@sealordmountbatten]

@@bebeandjohnnotsonomadiclif5287 It wouldn't surprise me if they push it out to 3.5km or 4km, its a good start for the end of shotgunning as we know it

[@simplefactsoflife4795]

As someone who played subs quite a bit, I don't really have much of a beef with the efforts to make it harder to shotgun. Trying to pop up inside of 3 km was always a very high-risk maneuver anyway. Just get close and shoot from a little farther out than before, and the results will likely be almost as they were before. My real problem now is the fact that subs are now totally defenseless against a ship that happens to show up unexpectedly. And that seems to happen quite a bit since most DD's can out spot many subs, even when the sub is at periscope depth. If at periscope depth, you can't even see the DD until he is well inside 3 km. And as soon as you see him, he sees you. In the past, if I had an idea where the DD was, maybe I could get my boat pointed in the right direction so that when we saw each other, I could shoot some unguided homing torpedoes, and nail him before he got me (I used homing torps because of the shorter arming distance and the greater speed. No ping because there wasn't time, and the target was too close for homing anyway.). Even then, my success rate was less than 50%. Now, my chances are exactly 0.0%, unless the DD has virtually no health left anyway. What I think would be an equitable solution to this is to remove the short range penalty from homing torpedoes. Those were seldom used for shotgun attacks anyway, since alternative torpedoes deal much greater damage. And it would at least give the sub something of a fighting chance when in a defensive situation.

[@Tuning3434]

valid point, but I just wonder what WG is thinking about what the sub role should be. I think there is something to say for subs not being the stealthier version of a DD early game, because DDs have full plate with early spotting, DD duels, CV avoidance and generally surviving getting spotted first and enemy team has nothing better to shoot at. The short detection range of subs add to that problem, because it is very dangerous for a DD to do a depth charge run in front of an early game push. Maybe untangling DDs from the submarine duel helps, because DDs have so many other things on there to-do-list besides engaging the submarine. WG claimed subs where intended to smoke out passive predictable pew pew BBs, but in the current DD vs sub early game, the opposite occurs and many teams stay camping and blob together until one team is able to punch through the screen, get the spot and dominate the map. The maps are designed with flank opportunities and a center location where a duke out can happen, if the DDs are forced to die alone or blob in spawn with the team (and run with them when an actual non-retarded push is established), the game is decided by which team BB flank blinks first with very little a DD can do to delay. In my opinion, submarines capabilities are not the real problem, but the fact their perceived capabilities reinforce lower experience, non confident players to think their best option is to make the worst choice and run (far longer and farther than a team can recover from). Any game that ends up with 4 BBs alive at the end, fuming their team is the worst, has a reason because they allowed the enemy team to run down their escorts instead of absorbing the share of firepower that their designed role is (why BBs are the class that ALWAYS has HP restore). WG has allowed the general playerbase to deviate so far away from their original gameplay concept, that they cannot interpreted if game changes improve or devolve the games style, and making games utterly unpredictable and increasingly more frustrating.

[@stork6855]

if they continue the test idea for unified air spotting ranges would effect subs quite a bit as they use air spotting for periscope depth as it would allow subs to periscope spot all DD's from 4km cruisers at 5km and BB at 6km or so unless im remembering the ranges wrong (or at least what russian numbers are testing)

[@gregorturner9421]

​@@Tuning3434 you've missed the point. its not DD's killing subs, its BB's with ASW planes and the ping is a death sentence now. you get to periscope depth, line up and fire your homing torps, then ping. next second every ship in 10km with ASW aircraft knows where you are and where you are going and you will be killed straight away. all WG is doing is padding ship players kill stats with easy targets as all the stealth abilities of the submarine have been nerfed so hard they might as well just take the class out of the game.

[@Tuning3434]

​@@gregorturner9421Copium much? I just stated there is nothing really wrong with the sub performance perse, except that perceived performance is reeking havoc with how teams function if filled with average, not so confident players. I think there is something to say to not have DDs be the FIRST line of contact with subs, because DDs are not really that suitable for anti sub warface in the early game, and BBs should just be a little bit more active instead of being perfect targets for submarines. In a non submarine match players need to have map and spot awareness to have a clue on where DDs are, even if not sighted. Why should submarines be the class that can just only rely on performance instead of players having to rely heavily on map awareness? Sorry, but this narrative sounds a bit more like 'Reee, WG gib me good ship, because I am not at all interested in becoming a better player or invested in playing better with my team'. Nothing personal against you, but this game was originally intended as a team game, and every patch it is becoming even more free-for-all than a coop game. As a longer time player, I can honestly say playing matches have devolved into mostly a challenge against your own frustration levels, cause games are decided so much by which team flinches first followed by 15 minutes of frustrating hard work to try to recover. Most matches just feel pointless now, because of how little players can do when flanks completely fall apart just because spotting advantages by the other team and the overinflated fears for a submarine.

[@gregorturner9421]

@@Tuning3434 i agree, i play DD's and subs when im not playing ops, I play ops mostly because i got as you said frustrated working to spot the enemy only to watch the flank either run away or get sunk resulting in the slow painful chase in the sub as the cruisers and dds outrun you until you run out of underwater time and just have to wait for the end.

[@dustinbuck6433]

Crtl + X locks your turrets in the direction they're facing. Hit that then go to ASW to not have your turrets move. You can also change that hotkey so it's quicker. I have it on my mouse.

[@yoshiegg95]

couldn't you theoretically put it on the same button as ASW?

[@dustinbuck6433]

@@yoshiegg95 I think it would still move your main guns unless they were locked. Not sure though.

[@yoshiegg95]

@@dustinbuck6433 that'd be the idea, by having both on the same keybind, you'd lock your guns whilst going into ASW mode and unlocking them when going out

[@dustinbuck6433]

@yoshiegg95 aaaah ok I see what you're saying. Never thought of trying it.

[@frantiseksedivy5136]

@@yoshiegg95as said in the video, the guns move because people wanted them to move to be able to shoot the sub also in case it periscopes/surfaces... which is also useful. It is individual, sometimes I would like to have the turrets turned and sometimes not. Locking solves it. Turning only forward or rear turrets could be useful too.

[@pwo128]

In terms of turret rotation and locking on the bearing, that's all fine but what I'd really like is a button that returns the turrets to the fore and aft (harbour) position, which would be handy to reduce the time to train the mounts to Port or stbd afterwards. To me this would be a really simple mod.

[@MarvinWestmaas]

We asked for this during closed testing, the dev's didn't like the idea it would be 'to hard to implement'.

[@stotgunvsface5092]

Bots in the training rooms return to that position (on console) when they have nothing spotted. I imagine they have it as a setting somewhere

[@lonnyyoung4285]

I completely agree. I also wouldn't mind a way to independently control my main turrets, or at least fore and aft. Just something to where I can lock them to one side as a protection on the side I'm not really paying attention to. That way, if I get flanked, I can quickly switch control to the other side to get some shots off quickly while the other turrets either stay in place or swing around to help.

[@pwo128]

@@MarvinWestmaas I'm surprised the Devs think that a fore-and-aft button would be so complex...all it is is locking the turrets in the fore-and-aft position until it's unlocked...surely that's just a few more lines of programming code. I think they're just putting it in the "too hard" basket. Pity though, because many players would love the feature.

[@andreasrolli1837]

T6 Subs dont have alternativ torps. The playstyle is focused on homing torps. No buff from damage buff effected to this T6 line with the huge nerv on ping indicator for the subs. They are nearly dead now.

[@YogSothoth620]

good

[@chiracultrainstinct3d629]

That’s great

[@barrymak421]

​@@YogSothoth620 I know right now you can go back to braindead bb spam with zero thought. Your only real threat is bbs again congrats.

[@j_Snow]

The one thing that gets to me when hunting submarine as a dd is: The cockroach is right underneath you, you drop the depth charges = splash damage, splash damage, splash damage, splash damage and it takes like 10 of these to the submarine die Even worse is that wg released a upgrade that reduces the depth charge damage that submarines take And then they wonder why the player numbers are dropping

[@Dirkdaring44]

The heck it does. I play subs, if 3-4 drop above me and I'm dead.

[@guigo4479]

Come on you just have to sail approximatively were the sub is and shit grenades, and the sub is dead XD. Seriously, i don t think there are easier target than submarines

[@chiracultrainstinct3d629]

@@guigo4479yeah, sail just above the sub, but you remain a surface ship you know that? So the entire enemy team is gonna shoot the DD, not mentioning the fact that subs are faster than fcking torpedoes

[@guigo4479]

@@chiracultrainstinct3d629 hmmm... nope sub are some of the slowest ship underwater, exept for that mf the u4501,and for the ennemy team shooting you while chasing a sub, you might be unlucky and going against not completly braindead ennemies because most of the time when i m chased by a DD my team genuinely don t give a fck lmao

[@drink15]

The nerfs has done almost nothing to my sub play style. If anything I’ve gotten better as I’m forced to stay further away.

[@skynet6427]

L

[@davis6048]

And your full of crap It was a nerf I could run right up on ships and killing them out right. Its a lot tougher now you will miss more torp hits because of distance to target.

[@drink15]

@@davis6048 I know reading it hard but I said "my play style"... not yours. I don't shotgun and the nerfs are to shotting gunning. I've been doing more damage since the buff to torps.

[@texasforever7887]

In WW2, subs were essentially stealthy, but slow torpedo DDs

[@carstenhansen5757]

Exactly.

[@MrSplodez]

In WW2 subs could submerse for 48 hours

[@carstenhansen5757]

@@MrSplodezAnd go at about 7 kts.

[@gregorturner9421]

now they are not stealthy slow easy kills for everything.

[@carstenhansen5757]

@@gregorturner9421They are still pretty stealthy. Way more than a DD.

[@malguskerensky]

The underwater DD thing, know what counters stealthy DDs in game? The fact their torps typically take nearly two minutes to reload, something none of the subs have. The patch did little to the core problem of subs in the game; that surface ships have to stop everything they are doing to deal with a nearby sub. In addition that CVs (second most hated ship) gets a completely free pass on dealing with subs, just like their damage control.

[@sealordmountbatten]

Well if you think about it, given the small number of torpedo tubes, it should be pretty similar DPM no?

[@malguskerensky]

Not if, after the damage buff, the torps are doing nearly the same damage as a Shima. Faster reload, can easily hide, and still drop torps at close range making it harder to avoid. Doubt we are going to agree on this topic mate. :)

[@Sulfuron41]

​@malguskerensky Obviously you're not a sub player

[@shatteredstar2149]

​@@malguskerenskysubmarine torps should honestly do much more damage than destroyers

[@simonconte7299]

Let's see. After two updates, subs are more maneuverable, take less damage from ASW, get a 15% increase to damage from dummy torps, and a 7% damage bonus from the new module. In exchange, they now just can't shoot within 3 km, and ASW is slightly more frequent, and the ping indicator points their general direction (although it doesn't actually mare their location). I fail to see how this makes things any better.

[@SuperCrazf]

They got buffed because people kept losing with subs and gave them an awful win rate 😂

[@guigo4479]

Just wanna see you play a tier 6 sub and gettin charged by a DD and not being able to do anything

[@simonconte7299]

@@guigo4479 I'd rather not see any subs at all! :)

[@gregorturner9421]

so what they have done is crippled subs at less than 3km....so when you get charged and you are trying to fight them off you do eff all damage then die an inglorious depth. might as move that green line zone to 3km because its not worth using your torps inside that range. as for pinging, well now its a death sentence to use your sonar, might as well just do the job properly and make the torps acoustic like in reality and they home in on sound rather than sonar.

[@dutch0770]

Sub player here. I think subs should play like i 56. Slow at P depth and under water. With a 4-5 minute O2 tank. Hydro doesn't detect at max depth. Radar detects at surface and P depth. And ASW needs changed from a random line drop to a circle that drops 3-4 random depth charges.

[@UnimpressedAussie]

sub player... you absolute scrub.

[@rosssuttonproperties]

I think as a trade off subs should be able to dive to deep depths and avoid most DC damage and be immune to hydro. However as a trade off, any sub below 30 meters should lose all map awareness and not be able to use their own electronics. Seems like a fair change. As it is now, there is just no reason for a sub to go to the full sixty meters. Basically that would mirror a more real life experience where ships and planes can drive a sub deep and remove it from the battle for a while. As it is now a detected sub is pretty much a dead sub. They should have some recourse.

[@sighclop7827]

At 12:50 you mention complaints of sub players over the loss of damage method. WG screwed this up, and everyone not playing sub is paying for it. I'm curious if the sub players complained the ships were too fast, or the homing torps which didn't exist were too OP and the dive time isn't a factor or ASW planes taking longer to reach the marker. Subs were a great tool if used in stealth or playing commerce raider but not a battle element. WG made this all up from scratch and it's junk.

[@Muchowski_B]

I really don’t understand the animus towards subs. The majority of games I play rarely is a sub being dominant

[@Sulfuron41]

Thank you!!!

[@majorborngusfluunduch8694]

I actually play subs and I don't feel like some kinda sea monster destroying entire flanks. I have to put a lot of work towards my victories. People who don't bother to try a sub have no clue.

[@taiko1237]

Also, I think that subs being unable to do anything to each other anymore is actually good from a historical accuracy perspective because there is exactly one historical instance (in late WW2) of a submarine destroying another submarine while both were underwater. On the other hand, sub on sub fights are kinda fun and they are much more practical with homing torpedoes (which weren't really practical for underwater submarine combat in the kind of time period the game's ships are from).

[@haakonsteinsvaag]

You are wrong about the homing torpedoes. Both Germany and US developed acoustic homing torpedoes around the same time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_torpedo

[@Tuning3434]

@@haakonsteinsvaag I think OP is referring to sonar homed torpedoes. Good luck having a WW2 era acoustic homing torpedo actually prioritize a relative silent submarine over any other thing in the ocean (and prioritize the ENEMY sub over your own). It worked against slow loud merchants, or in case of the Mk. 18 was used as a surprise torp hitting the destroyer screaming towards your submarine. The Mk. 18 is notoriously difficult to handle, because it's electric batteries needed a lot of continuous maintenance and not really the torp you have in your tubes when you unexpectedly spot an enemy submarine in the middle of the ocean.

[@haakonsteinsvaag]

@@Tuning3434 I don't know what kind of homing torpedo OP was thinking of, but the statement as it stand is wrong and needed to be corrected.

[@strykersgamingltd]

@@haakonsteinsvaagNeither weapon system were not practical to use and prone to failure, most important unreliable for deployment. The only nation that employed a homing underwater weapon were the British. They were air dropped homing mines. Until they advance this game into the '60/'70s era, homing torpedoes should not be deployed in the game. Using Wiki as a citation is never a good idea. You know why? Because anyone can alter the information put their "opinion as stated fact." Which means wiki is unreliable at any point.

[@Tuning3434]

@@haakonsteinsvaagOP is technically and practically right, and you are pedantic right. I hope that gives you the fuzzy feeling you are craving for.

[@benhebert2322]

Honestly, this is what’s frustrating about the game right now. And it’s not that subs are overpowered either. I rarely ever see in any games a sub being a dominant class. Subs are meant to be disruptive and stealthy. You’re not supposed to know where they are at any given time. And I think the community is only hurting themselves by complaining so much about submarine to the game. It’s clear wargaming wants subs to be disruptive in combat and I think they do that job well without being too overpowered you have to consider the amount of damage that battleships can do per match Per Salvo versus what subs do per match. Like it’s almost as if the community expects submarines to be able to do nothing to them and they should be able to just annihilate them every time they they find them. The ASW update was kind of ridiculous, and the fact that if you get spotted every battleship in the map including cruisers can just drop 10 20 ASW sometimes more on top of you all the same time guarantees you will not survive being spotted absolutely once which isnt the case for everyone else in the game. Just a lot of cry babies it seems…

[@KB_13247]

the ping change is probably actually the biggest change. there's hardly any variance to it anymore. the old ping could have popped up anywhere from 0-1.5km's away from where the sub was. now the ping pops up between 0-200m. basically smack right on top of the sub. so there's no more lottery with launching asws. if you see the ping the whole time you can see when the sub turns too, the little crescents will start moving differently before the ping ends to show the sub turning. once you get used to it, it's almost as good as just seeing the sub on sub surv. edit: i agree with the last thing where subs can't really fight other subs anymore. cause at long ranges it's VERY easy for subs to dodge enemy sub torps. you have 3 dimensions of dodging possible. turning left or right, and diving or surfacing. it's very hard to land torps on subs when you're far away unless they're not good. so either they should make homing torps lock on stop closer to the sub, or remove the 3 km dmg reduction for sub v sub underwater, or maybe even just sub v sub period. cause right now sub v sub boils down to which teammates are paying more attention. not to mention sometimes you get teammates who just hate subs and decide they'd rather the enemy sub win over them. i don't get the logic but it happens. your own teammates will give your position away by constantly sending their asw on top of you. when you spot the enemy sub they won't send their asw to the enemy sub. so you're left to 1v1 the sub but now the dmg is too low against them, the perfect engagement distance now is like 3.3 that's when it's hard to dodge sub torps but that's a really narrow band. plus depending on your sub your sub surv might only be 6km's. which leaves a 3km band where your torps are effective. the enemy sub is smart dodge the first rack and just close in the distance. oh yea, there's that soviet sub that gets 9km sub surv. that's pretty much the best sub to fight other subs now. especially with the new module to reduce prep and cooldown of sub surv by 20%. you can have your sub surv up 2 minutes before the enemy sub gets theirs if they didn't take the module or have the captain skill. the cooldown gets so short it feels like you can pop sub surv every 30 seconds.

[@elliottbriggs3385]

S-189 is really strong now, 17.5k torpedo alpha, and really fast, high battery capacity, 9km sub radar with fast prep time. It’s a beast in ranked

[@CK-zh2fv]

These changes were great for ranked. With such small teams, it’s no longer fearsome to just charge down the sub and take care of it once you know its location. No shotgunning is great.

[@rustysimonds5011]

Again, doesnt happen in real life, torps are armed when they are armed, they dont hit the side of a ship any lighter brcause they were launched less than 3km away, they still detonate and cause the exact same damage as a torp launched 5km away or 10km away. This is a BUFF for surfaceships especially considering that very same sub on-screen has to also deal with surfaceships woth 30 to 50% torp protection and the ability to remove pings forcing the sub to use non homing torps that are slower, have left range

[@rustysimonds5011]

This is a NERF for subs, forcing slower unguided torps with less range or unguided homing torps which are faster and have longer range but 1/2 the damage output before figuring in 30 to 50% torp protection

[@lelandpeer3066]

I think they should allow each turret to target different shipps like they would be able to in real life, that would make playing against subs a little more balanced, have 1 or 2 turrets focused on them and the others on other ships within your guns range.

[@alexanderkartsev3728]

I literally told in the comments under on of recent videos, that wg will make it worse. It was video where streamer was really happy about changes. Keep believing, mate!

[@tomr1630]

They still need to reduce both the underwater & periscope depth speeds. What coal ship should I buy next, F Sherman or the Salem? I play DD's, CL's & BB's. I have the Agir, Axuma, Black, Groningen, Kurfurst, and Napoli. Advice please.

[@paddington1670]

Salem is way too close to Des Moines unless you have a ton of coal to waste

[@chiracultrainstinct3d629]

Go Sherman but Salem is fun too.

[@avengercannon]

I was in a brawl last night and I dropped ASW right on top of an I56 that was like 4 or 5 km away but since it still takes 12+ seconds even at close range I didn't even scratch him and I ate 30k+ dmg

[@kaollachan]

3:30 it does help , a bit less against the UK line and let no talk about the Alliance torp turning XD . now we just need Surcouf with lateral launcher on the back ( maybe unguided)

[@HecticNova]

As a sub main, i can confirm i am not having as much success shot gunning. Instead i just stay back now and spam homing torps from far far away from all those nasty planes and sub surveillance.

[@stwright84]

IRL the turrets can face different directions, as they each have directors on them

[@kaollachan]

the change after some sub more than other ( in nerf and buff way), the ping is a big nerf for the UK line ( even if they have good turning trop, alliance his is own kind), to counter that they could have got sub a engine module to help change direction. it is a buff for the poor i-56 in raw dmg, at first i though the submarine surveillance was a "buff" for it too, but nope to explain, submarine surveillance ( on surface ship) as a max range of 7km ( ibuki / zao) from what i saw, lower tier were 6km. but I-56 conceal sit at 7.1, meaning it will be detected before somebody ru nthe risk to waste it on it. and a spotted I-56 is good as dead, can't dive for long, very slow underwater, only front torp, and bad range on guided one

[@billwales4861]

My BB vs subs...sit way back and fire main guns when air spots them. Shades of the movie Under Siege come to mind but from way further out. With the goofy sighting rules in this game, it's like I look out the bridge and see the sub as if I were near them. Ships spotted by others should only appear on mini map.

[@marcelsilva9919]

As a mino player, I found very pleasant to hunt subs now, not sure if I got better in my grind road or the subs got nerfed.

[@kingofcastlechaos]

The 5:15 minute mark is an absolute "I'm stuck step-bro, can you and your friends help me?" moment.

[@kev_sen]

IMO the absolute worst thing about CV's and Submarines is that when they are in a match there are less BB's, CL's and DD's. The game has been out for 9 years and they still haven't made random battles 15v15 or 20v20. They are only so powerful and annoying because they are replacing the ships that counter them in matches rather than adding to the gameplay. Get a CV in your game there is one less AA CL, get a Submarine there is one less DD.

[@MuckRatz]

Overal seems good changes. ships seem to have a better idea of where to aim the asw and the dd's can now rush you. You can still sort of shotgun, but it does give the other player some actual chance to survive. which is good. but agree, if you use it with dumbfire torps only, it is very much a stealthy DD, however that also makes you predictible. I do think that the skill curve has changed with this, its harder to figure out how to survive in a sub, while rewarding the skill to predict and curve homing torps to catch those manouvering ships gets trained. Perhaps WG could the 3km arming distance for subs only, that would give subs back the ability to knife fight? Regardless, the playerbase seems to slowely learn to deal with and play along with Subs. So i think overall, the current changes are a good step. Lets see how it works out, lets give it some time before we draw conclusions.

[@thomaskurz5617]

Well about the comparison between sub and torpedo destroyer. Sure the sub has less torpedoes but can fire them single and has a much faster reload. The base reload for the Gato is 55 seconds for the Shimakaze 153, so nearly 3 times as long. So if I stagger my 3 launchers on a Shimakaze by shooting every 50 seconds I would shoot 5 torps at a time and the Gato shoots 6,not counting that it also has rear tubes. I can lay down a wall of skill but then I am more or less unarmed for 150 seconds. The subs are more or less better destroyers, they can do all the jobs destroyers do in WOWS just better. They can spot and are stealthier, The dive ability is like a smokescreen that never runs out of charges. They shoot their torpeodes quicker and have the option for homing.

[@barrymak421]

Interesting and how much damage does each of your torpedoes do? And remind me does Shim only reload 1/2 of its torpedos before the other 1/2 starts? And what is that thing that you have that you can make yourself invisible and run away? Oh yeah smoke and engine boost. Subs can go under water and get 5 tons of depth charges dropped on them and unable to run away. I get it getting killed when you can't see the target sucks, but dds have been dealing with that forever with the CV garbage. There are just more whining babies that play bb so when they cry wargamming snaps to appease.

[@jaywerner8415]

Given the SPEED of Submarine torps, last i checked "point blank range" for Torpedoes (torpedoes in general) was like 5kms or so. So "shotgunning" is still a thing, you just can't get right next to someone anymore. And honestly if a sub GETS that close to you, it should die shortly afterwords from everyone spamming their ASW planes. Oh yeah.... that would ruin Sub V Sub fights doesn't it. WG do you just hate fun or something? But hay, they gave subs a Proxy Warning so they don't RAM each other anymore...... Wargaming you solved a problem of your own creation.

[@RohanPL]

Subs are cancer, torp speed should be nerfed as much as possible.

[@gregorturner9421]

all does is mean that subs now have no self defence against targets that appear close in. like around an island.

[@Tuning3434]

@@gregorturner9421 yeah, that is why that is actually a dangerous place to be in, and players in other units should use map awareness and rely on their team to know if it is a safe location to be or not. And unlike other classes that need to use island to break visual contact, reposition themselves or ambush when based on map awareness they know it is a risk worthy to take, a submarine has other ways to still do their damage and / or break off from an engagement.

[@SkyRaider-31]

At that point why not have the arming distance moved to 3km?

[@Tranzzform]

People don't get why people hate subs. It has nothing to do with them completely dominating a game or flank. It is that if you are the subs chosen target you no longer get to play the game. you are required to ignore everything else you want to do and play a mini game with something you can not see. Something often faster and more maneuverable, who can pop out and kill you without any knowledge of them being there. This is the same reason people hated cv's. No counter play and where a cv will take several minutes to get there dmg on target, giving you some free time to do things, there is no free time with subs.

[@davis6048]

Shot gunning Is harder I play subs you have to stay farther out when launching torps ,and If you launch within 3km I'm not exactly sure but getting 3000 damage for fire or six torps was a efin nerf

[@rosssuttonproperties]

It is a serious nerf. No fan of subs but I have gotten pretty good at killing them when in a DD. Shotgunning was the only real worry and frankly, I had pretty much learned how to deal with it. Now, unless a sub is well covered by team mates, the only correct course is to go for it. In the past a full health dd could survive a hit or two while closing but now the torps are going to be pretty useless.

[@verde5738]

"The Submarines can no longer shotgun you from 2km away"... Oh yeah, they can ONLY shotgun you from 3km now, literally unplayable!

[@rustysimonds5011]

Ok, sub could be considered a underwater torp boat except torp boats spit out 4 to 5 times the amount of torps during the same approx reload times, in some cases, the damage per torps is even higher, they are vastly more manourable than subs, even the U4501. Other comparisons smoke vs underwater, yep thats fair, turning circles and speeds are way different though in favour of destroyers and torp/gun boats. Torp/gun boats also have depth charges, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4 not 5, not even 6 at a time but 10, 12, 14, etc all worth 1000 to 2000hp each on a sub with 9 to 14000hp depending on tier

[@rustysimonds5011]

Si far I haven't seen much in the way of perking up subs but a he'll of a lot for surfaceships.

[@rustysimonds5011]

The best idea is, surface and periscope only torps. Homing torps and unguided torps damage value the same, eg both are 15000hp damage before torp protection calculated, ( the sub captain is aware of spotting and asw risk when pinging) he makes that choice, U4501 torps are exactly.the same should be 15000hp damage, not 7800hp damage with homing only. PUNG faster longer range calculated based on ping activated. The range between homing and unguided is at most 2km, even if ping was left till torps 3km out, ping wouldn't get to target in enough time for homing torps to lock on anyway, so saying but sub player can delay.ping till the last minute doesn't work as a arguement

[@DrunkCosmonaut]

We can't give wargaming any good ideas because they will ignore them for 2+ years and then implement our changes but call them their idea

[@tonybotting9548]

To be fair any decent sub player never torps inside that 3k range anyway . Shotgun is still very much alive . And with the damage buff it's just insane . Many many players are just potatoes that actually are really rather bad . I think all these sub nerfs has done is weed out the people who have no clue how to play them .

[@SapphirosCZ]

"Favourite underwater class the submarines" Well to be fair there are only two underwater classes in the game right now. Submarines and Bismarck.

[@sydthekid101]

Did operations change ie tier ix and x ?

[@aboalmajd911]

Shotgunning still excite just instead of being done from less than 3 km to more than 3 km but the result is worst with 15% more damage per their torp !

[@V-V1875-h]

Yeah, BBs still can't dodge a torp from 4-5km specially when broadside

[@Alienvisitor007]

Sub torps are way to fast and need a nerf

[@mitchrc3]

Hehe. Dodge dope.

[@stork6855]

if ur chasing a sub its like 5km away before you will actually eat full damage due to closing distance and the slower non homing torps which just doesn't fit well imo lol

[@aboalmajd911]

@stork6855 The issue is only things like dd or fast paw in crusier can benefit from closing that gap but other won't.

[@slimtim1969]

Lesta: Changes to Submarines and Carriers. Playerbase :D WG: Changes to Submarines and Carriers. Playerbase D:

[@SkrapMetal84]

i am going to go there why cant we get a Secondary aim anything even with the perfected skills?

[@TheFman2010]

Gato unguided torps are its main weapon. It's almost impossible to hit with it from distance. I wish WarGaming will allow me to return Gato for the steel I paid for it. :(

[@Zeugenschutz]

100% agree, they killed the Gato, the 6km homing torps are also worthless when knife fighting a sub, too close and u do 400 damage per torp. You might aswel play a dd with the playstyle of the Gato now.

[@quor2243]

I find that hard to believe. DDs have been hitting from distance for many years and they rarely can fire from 3km.

[@robertcras8151]

WG kills many ships you paid resources, doubloons or even hard cash for. It is WG way of making people spend stuff. They bring out a really OP ship. Then later they buff it a few times saying it is the wish of the players. Which it is true of course, but they KNOW the player base is going to go crazy over it. Same reason why they don't care that games are getting shorter and shorter which they caused with all the spam ships and other OP ships, or players in tier 10 and 11 ships with less than 300 games played. People spend more credits and flags in less time.

[@Joshua-fi4ji]

​@@quor2243Subs have less torps and they're easier to spot. Gato doesn't torp from a distance as well as S189 and I56 do.

[@UnimpressedAussie]

you paid steel for a sub? hahahaha, i bet you bought it because you knew itd be an easy way to get lots of risk free damage.

[@sparki20081]

I really liked you video, good stuff. Only one think that keeps bugging me, is that you call the alternative torpedoes " dummy guided". They are " unguided Torpedoes", not guided at all, not even by a "dummy".

[@carstenhansen5757]

WTF, with the headline? Having a super stealthy sub, vs half the torps is not a bad trade. As far as I remember, they have a faster reload than most DD's

[@jameshenderson4876]

He always, always uses clickbait video titles. Why I watch this channel far less frequently than in the past, and unsubbed.

[@carstenhansen5757]

@@jameshenderson4876true. It's annoying, and it kind of makes you NOT want to see them, because you know he exaggerates.

[@longearedelf8917]

I play on console so im still waiting for subs and i want them badly and all these changes seem like good additions but there is one thing i still don't get. Why don't subs have the same spot distance underwater as they do on the surface? It seems dumb that a sub can't spot a sub underwater

[@Trump24GreatWhiteHope]

Do subs have a time limit under the water? Im new to wowl

[@LarryWater]

Yes

[@Poopster4U]

I played and grinded subs to learn how to play against them and I absolutely hate this class.

[@scubaguy14]

my favorite underwater class is sinking opponents !!

[@MrSplodez]

Nerfing all subs because the Gato was OP at shotgunning was a stupid decision, no doubt the playerbase will continue to cry

[@mjy000]

Why are you judging submarine mechanics primarily in regards of the GATO? Imho its not the best choice because its not representive to the most of the other submarines in the game. Shotgunning with a non-Gato submarine is not viable since the update. You pay one sucessfull shotgunning attempt with your life most of the time, because there a lot of japanese and commonwealth cruisers out there, and the most subs are still the slowest boats on the map by far (which is a fact most of the people tend to forget). Subs are easily to push and can´t escape when they are overextented.

[@sealordmountbatten]

I am using Gato gameplay, but I’ve played the I56, U-4501, and Balao

[@fresshell3411]

there already is Ctr+X that locks your turrets but it works for all turrets so they can just add another combination that locks only front or only rear turrets

[@notmyrealname8064]

I have got to ask - did you play ANYTHING other than the Gato in this testing? How many games do you have in ANY of the tech tree subs? I know I mentioned in comments on your last sub video, but the Gato is the ONLY sub in the game that retained the longer range shotgun ability due to the tight single launch torp spread. And the long range on the Gato unguided torps means it is actually practical to use as a torp boat at 8+km, unlike literally every other sub. The new sub surveillance cooldown module combined with a bunch of cruisers getting the consumables means that it is now more dangerous to be underwater than on the surface for much of the mid game. And for all the talk about radar countering DDs too... Radar crushing DDs require turrets to move, line of sight to be available, and players to aim precisely. Crushing subs just requires having airstrikes available. I don't have a fundamental issue with any of the changes individually, but WG keeps changing more and more with no consideration of how the changes stack for given lines. I challenge you to play 10 games in the Thrasher and still tell me that subs are in a good place.

[@sealordmountbatten]

I56, U-4501, and Balao

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

Because IRL torpedoes are weaker if launched nearer......

[@spiderz8144]

Use homing torps without the ping instead of unguided. Homing torps are more stealthy.

[@LarryWater]

Unguided torps are more stealthy.

[@aussiepreppin]

subs are still fked in this game! 3km nerf is NOT ENOUGH! Honestly, I think it should be 6km. minimum 5, I had a punching match with a sub from 4km and it was just BROKEN, this is also T6 im talking about...

[@uprising__]

Why can’t they just make it so that its possible for torpedoes to collide and detonate on eachother making shotgunning dangerous to the submarine itself?

[@frosty3693]

So sub players say a sub is just a more stealthy torp DD, and they want more???

[@Eremiyah]

Suprise I get Gato'ed 6km away....... meanwhile when I try to depth charge it repeatedly they do a 90 degree turn and completely avoid it. thanks WG for making leveling german cruisers annoying as hell. Didn't help no one else was bothered to attack said Gato.

[@sealordmountbatten]

To be fair, most TX torp DDs can stealth torp you from 6km away as well

[@Eremiyah]

atleast with DDs if you see them, you can just blast them with HE unlike subs who can max depth dive almost instantly before shells can actually land on it. I'd probably suggest a longer delay to dive. or say, I can't even use the german hydro, as I know if I tried to use it to spot the sub at periscope depth they'd just dive and cause me to waste a hydro charge.

[@ifax1245]

15% plus 7% does stack

[@SmegHedd117]

Simple, Don't ping, and use long-range torps....

[@unowno123]

There is a new brawl with only BBs CVs and subs. And it really show how much subs suck. BBs do 90% of the damage and subs are just there to spectate. I genuinely think this last round of nerfs has destroyed the class. Like MB said, they no longer play like submarines. Theyre even more anti historical now.

[@scootypooper]

hello

[@Cerberus0076]

One cant hide his love for German BBs,huh?☺️

[@beardumaw24]

I to love my German BBs !

[@Bigbacon]

40knots underwater is really stupid.

[@arizona_anime_fan]

I've found the only sub worth playing at t10 now is the u4501. it's the only sub you can get

[@ImpendingJoker]

Yes, on convoys of largely lightly armed transport ships with DEs or DDs for escort that had sonar that could detect a sub from a pretty good distance away, and drop charges on them pretty accurately. SSs in WoWS have no such fear as they can't be detected by DDs and only a few cruisers now have Submarine Surveillance when it should have been ships like Gearing, Fletcher and Daring that have the ability to detect subs, not CAs.

[@arizona_anime_fan]

@@ImpendingJoker US subs sank more CVs, BBs, and CAs then all other american ship classes combined (yes even cvs). when people think of the Pac theater, they keep forgetting what US Subs did in 1944 and 1945, all they think about is 1942 and 43... yes, the US navy went nuts in the pac theater, but US subs were off the chain too in those last 10 months of the war or so... the reality is US Subs were absolutely devastating to IJN warships in addition to the merchants.

[@munybtvr1596]

I try today and shoot another sub from 4 to 5 km , i hit him with 3 torps, i only did 2,5k damage . Tier 8 subs

[@davidwhitfield6025]

Sub to sub underwater combat, which in my experience occurred at 3 km or less, is now a joke. Basically they can do little damage even if you hit with 4 - 6 torps. Gone are the sub knife fights that were quite fun. Now your back to ramming. I agree that I have found that surface ships will charge the sub and that includes BBs to get into that 3 km. Its forces subs to hang back to make certain the torps stay at 3km plus. I'm now basically having to use alternate torps and forgoing pinging entirely, basically a weak DD now. This is an advantage for the American subs the most because they have long range alternate torps. Even with the 1km increase the German subs, imo, just don't get the same ability. And of course the T6 and British Subs don't have alternate torps at all. And again you use the Gato - most players don't have the Gato.

[@V-V1875-h]

Subs are just better torpedo dd's now that can simply go underwater to become invulnerable

[@Alienvisitor007]

Don't play them then easy

[@arizona_anime_fan]

Well it's both an advantage and a curse. the American subs were made for shotgunning. their whole meta revolved around it. yeah, they have ok dummy fire torps, but outside of the gato those torps are nothing special...

[@fresshell3411]

I-56 doesnt even have Submarine surveilance so fighting enemy sub that has it is was almost impossible

[@rovelfox7832]

Yeah, I found this out as well, got 12 torp hits on a sub that I completely outplayed, but because the distance could never break out beyond 3km I oinly did 7K, 1/3 of which was flooding.

[@stevehaas9876]

It is 11 am CST, there are 6700 players on NA server, ON SATURDAY, 3/16. There are 5 in que in brawls..... u know, where u have SUB, CV and BBs in a tier 8 mode. WONDER WHY no one is playing brawls? It doesn't count against you.... when you get SPECIAL players with you like in ranked or random.. so why not play it? I wonder why?

[@theiranianputin2770]

Thanks.

[@sardaukerlegion]

"We will see how it goes" BB is sinking (again)......

[@chrisriker5422]

A whole method of dealing damage....yes they are trying to take your ability to pick a player and end their round, immediately. Subs and cvs are still not right for this game.

[@malecki60194]

Funny never see subs fight one another

[@sycology2486]

Maybe I'll play next patch

[@bobbynelson5241]

Got in a random with 3 subs, it is still ridiculous

[@unowno123]

submarines effectively now are no longer submarines, they basically ripped out the historical signature playstyle and made them DDs instead of just nerfing shotgun damage, they forced them to be DDs, killing the entire class identity I'm no longer interesting in submarines now because of it

[@ossamafayez]

the only word about nerf and balance was ( if you shotgun a ship less 3 km you get 10% damage ) then the all update come in the side of subs 1- increase range 2- add new upgrade to sub to give them 7% damage 3- increase damage ( basic damage ) 4- increase movements in turn and dive what a great nerf guys ..we should get beer for that ..WG corrupted the game more than before so subs now has unlimited ping most stealthy class than dds best trop reload time hide under water for sure out spot - out range - out speed any dd not cls or bbs what they give to the surface ships to counter that !!!!!! zero .nothing is there any one see any balance ??

[@MrSplodez]

Sounds like you haven't played the new sub, DDs are totally invincible to submarines now, and you can't ping if there are ships around ever, so homing torpedos are useless.

[@gregorturner9421]

how about making torps realistic to WW2 and have them acoustic homing, so they vector in on sound, the faster a ship is going the easier it is to hit.

[@gorazdnovsak3705]

Torpedos DDs can't fire single torps. There is only one nation where DD that can do that and they are not Torpedo DDs.

[@mikep9690]

IRL subs have been used to deploy mines and listening buoys.

[@janboen3630]

Subs are way too nimble under water and hitting them with ASW is a lottery.

[@vecioalpin8998]

13.4 Special Update to help the MongoBBplayers : Depthcahrges will always be dropped on top of sub no mattter where u aim..

[@mgriffioen8503]

how to catch a sly sub of guard???????

[@MarcusNZL117]

Good sub players just nuke you with dummy torps the latest brawls shows that BBs getting hammered by a CV then having to deal with a sub. Really hate when WG nerfs a CV or a sub they end up making it far better because they want to protect those lines.

[@lonnyyoung4285]

They seem reasonable.

[@Vneks]

Ack.well atleast my fattleships wont be shotgunned that strong. I hope

[@jaywerner8415]

Oh its still gonna be shotgunned. just not POINT BLANK anymore. I think WG forgot that POINT BLANK for torpedos is about 5kms or so.

[@dodgedaytona7435]

Funny subs aren't at their historical speed, but the t6 New Mexico is still as sluggish as ever.

[@andromeda9562]

they are still overpowered periot perscope depth need to be the same as normal dedetction and not cheater dedetection and pinging needs to be seen as spotted and the need a speed neve to perscope depth and the torp reload and the souldent be able to recharge there air i want my benham able to go dive same reload time

[@lesrush6298]

The vast majority of the war gaming community did not want subs and hence a lot stoped playing the game ,subs are hated more than CV

[@wynlord]

Good

[@5kgBirnen]

they are not only stealthy torpedo dds now subs are now slow less versatile dd with a literal "no influence zone" at 3-5 km. Subs are now only great at pissing off people but way less impactful for winning games than a good dd player

[@bustanutist]

If you think 10 percent of a toprs damage in this game is 200hp you need help.

[@dalebellamy3173]

Will people just leave us sub players alone, dam havnt we been nerfed enough dam its so easy to kill us.

[@SuperCrazf]

I knew something like this would happen, lmao

[@jgordon2925]

net buff for subs asper