World of Warships- Its Been Almost 6 Months Since They Were Nerfed, Are Submarines Still A Problem??

[@Joey_Liu]

I think you summarized it very well Sealord. The submarine life of WoW is a bunch of boring games, and then you get that one where all the cards are in your favor and you just traumatized the enemy team. That is just my experience playing and facing subs

[@VulgarHonesty]

This. This, precisely. Though, I would add in addition to boring I would include the word painful. ASW modules and depth charges ain't no joke.

[@richardhead1105]

They were both buffed and nerfed so petty much status quo. DD should be the biggest threat to subs but they are the lowest. That in itself points to a major issue

[@aurelspecker6740]

Do you even play subs? In my subs, I FEAR dds. If I don't have "friends" around and a DD decides to hunt me, I am fucked. There is nothing you can do anymore against DDs. Sure, I might play hide and seek and "win that" But for this time, I am completely useless. And also, when I play DDs, I rarely fear any sub anymore. Unless of course the sub has many friends. But then I don't fear the sub, but it's team. The biggest difference now is, that you should NOT run from subs, but push the sub, if somewhat possible. As soon as you are

[@alejandropinchetti8302]

@@aurelspecker6740 and if you are on periscope, you can outspot the DD but you cant hit him With torps bc he is within that 3km radius

[@KazuoLucas]

@@alejandropinchetti8302 Also reminder that periscope uses air detection so if your DD is usually spotted by planes at 3km that's the distance that the sub at periscope will spot the DD.

[@aurelspecker6740]

@@alejandropinchetti8302 Actually, most often you CANNOT. The detection range decreases when you are a sub at periscope depth. You can't just take the numbers you see for "detection range" because for submarines at periscope, you will have smaller numbers, by a lot. In my experience: >70% of dds can outspot the submarine at periscope. And those who don't still have such a low detection range, that they are below the 3km range when your torps arrive. Also, you do NOT want to throw torps at a DD hunting you, unless you expect to die anyways. Because that gives away your position and the DD can close the gap even faster afte he dodged the first round of torps. Again: I played quite a few of these games. And subs are somehow even my best class (mostly because i am the main spotter for the team i guess, and i force myself to chill the fuck out and not push too hard).

[@wolficik0000]

idk what the other person is yapping about but DDs do need something like hedgehogs to counter subs at range. A DD chasing a sub around is like a full hp GK chasing a kiting Venezia in this game. Hydro buffs or some uptier DDs getting medium range ASW sounds better then hoping your BB is smart enough to send planes from 10km away.

[@daveyboygee]

In my opinion subs have been nerfed way too far. Too many people complaining about subs when they didn't really have that much power. Even with the old setup many players would come back with 0 damage maybe only spotting never capping. That is not the mark of an OP class of ship. WoWs listens to whiners too much and end up ruining the entire experience for those who appreciate a particular class of ship. When people didn't have carriers or subs to complain about they complained about DDs the same way. To me it just shows human nature. People are going to complain about something no matter what. Bring back the old sub buffs!

[@Aotearoawoodturner]

haven't had any issues since i uninstalled the cash grab. gotcha game

[@aden1466]

hilarious

[@shivo4328]

😂

[@hondahirny]

Funny you say that. Same here 😂 Wargaming got me to give up gaming altogether.

[@Aotearoawoodturner]

@@hondahirny sorry to hear that plenty of fun games out there

[@hondahirny]

@@Aotearoawoodturner Indeed! I’ve loved Factorio, American Truck Simulator, and MS Flight Simulator among others. Among Us was super fun to play also. I just decided to move away from gaming in general. Wows was really fun but the cash grab really pissed me off. It was the proverbial “final straw”. Anyways, I’m done with gaming for a long while. I need to “touch grass” rather than sit in front of a PC. Do that at work enough already. All good for those who still enjoy it. Definitely some good games out there.

[@haphazrds250]

I cant play subs past tier 6, the enemies just projectile vomit ASW planes at the mere wiff of you at tier 8+ its a thoroughly punishing experience. You simply cannot make 1 mistake

[@benhebert2322]

Accurate

[@johnwpmusic]

well anything past tier 6 is going to be just so damn costly. I am a primary WOWS Legends player and tier 7 CVs are expensive as are any tier 8 or above ship.

[@Paul_Hardy]

That's a pretty realistic depiction of submarine warfare.

[@starpirat]

battleship bomber planes are OP and over ranged at 10k , the distance of destroyer guns and they have their own guns as well . bomber range should be 6 or 8k but not 10

[@ArterialCanine]

The Massachusetts ASW range sux balls, I see a sub and switch to the other flank in utter frustration of being helpless.

[@lorcon8907]

Yep musahi 5km asw sub 12km torps

[@drink15]

This is how flanks are lost and team lose games. You don't need to run away, just keep a distance and watch the map

[@00spinz35]

​@drink15 then the sub catches up to you and tops you anyway, the flank is lost anyway and then you lose

[@drink15]

@@00spinz35 If you know the sub is on your side and you are in a Mass, you should be behind or near other ships. Also you should be positioned to dodge torps on near an island. Running to the other side of the map is rarely the correct move to win a game.

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

Skill issue

[@broccanmacronain457]

I have been in games (both as a sub and a floater) where the friendly team wants me dead as well.

[@BlueBeam10]

Now they made enough money and lost enough players, they just nerfed/destroyed subs to the ground. Which is dumb as usual. I don't play subs anymore, so it worked getting rid of them, but most surface ship captain probably don't know it, and are still pissed by subs...

[@DamianTheAlien]

Subs are useless. They are challenging and seldom rewarding to play. I regularly do around 1.5K damage per torpedo strike. As a surface ship I seldom if ever feel threatened by a sub player. People who think subs are OP are just whiny.

[@Headcrab-ik3lf]

Subs have been nerfed into the ground. Literally every ship can easily spam you with 10s cooldown air bombs on 10km range while you have 3 repairs and EVERY hit below 400m of depth charge distance causes fire and/or water AND oil leakage in your submarine. In addition way too many ships have long range radar, hydro or submarine detection, which - in combination makes is IMPOSSIBLE to escape. You are detected, you are dead. That's the submarine gameplay. And all of this, while DD's can still shotgun you with up to 15 torps which make double the damage of sub-torps. But yeah, that's fine I guess...

[@grayboats7741]

Same as my comment, only worded better and up earlier!

[@partyalldaypartyallnight1057]

@@grayboats7741 Agreed. I get destroyed playing submarines and it's hard to get kills. As soon as i'm seen i'm dead. Even if i ping so i try not to ping and aim my shots. I digress. A snorkel would be nice. At least give us that.

[@Mostropovich]

You're right, I just started playing sub and there are so many planes in the air that as soon as you're spotted, which is too easy for almost any ship in tier 8 to 10, you're dead.

[@starpirat]

well said, battleships with their OP bombers make it not a level playing field. poor crybabys

[@Jimmy_CV]

Everyone complaining about subs still just sucks, no damage under 3km, every ship has asw of some kind, pd spotting dosnt work on dds under 3-4km if they dont fire their own guns. There are too many ways to counter sonar ie smoke, repair, and damage control all cancel sonar. My sub games are worse than any other class on average.

[@greg67392]

Subs got nerfed really hard and everytime you're spotted an armada of depths charges are coming to destroy your face

[@Tricerius]

The 5km 'shotgun' comment you made is something that I thought as well, and something that people don't realize. I'm hardly an authoritative voice, but I feel like anyone who's touched a submarine for longer than a few games would quickly realize that in most situations, 3km doesn't mean 3km, but more like 4km+ due to that often times, you're torpedo'ing someone that's sailing into you, so that distance is partially being covered by the ship itself. Of course, the opposite applies if you're torpedo'ing someone sailing away, but that's less common, and in that case, the other player has more time to react since he's sailing away from the torpedoes, so there's some give and take there. As for the sub-player viewpoint as you mentioned; yeah. Normal Guy of the North mentioned that they're best used as standoff/snipers, and standoff does sound like the best way they're to be used. Because otherwise they're basically Torpedo DD's that sacrifice a bunch of utility and survivability (ASW Bukkake plus AoE damage, alongside smaller health pools) for stealth. Torpedo DD's are the better pick most of the time.

[@Theo-ev6yu]

Precisely why I wondered why WG didn't just save untold amount's of money and man-hours by just buffing IJN torpedoes and not developing submarines.

[@sabrewolf4129]

I feel that if the sub torps are nerfed that bad, the torps on other ships should have the same performance. like that cruiser, DD or even BB torps your ass at point blank range on a drive by.

[@aurelspecker6740]

What is still broken in my opinion is the ping locations. It's just somewhere random...

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

Skill issue

[@aurelspecker6740]

@@PigPissBeUponThem Sure, I definitely agree. I am certain, there is something I can learn. The problem is: HOW? The game doesn't explain it. I still haven't found any guide in written or video form that explains it. Maybe you can help me: Where is the sub, when you see them pinging? PS: Don't say "where the ping is, but you have to lead it" I know for a fact, that the pings are not where the subs are. I have had too many subs that pinged, I dropped ASW, and then seconds later they got spotted, and they were 1km off the actual pinging location (BEHIND the ping, so it definitely wasn't a problem of leading)

[@quor2243]

@@aurelspecker6740 It's not a 100% accurate location of the sub, plus if the sub is moving it will be somewhere else by the time ASW gets there. But, ASW is an area effect ability, so any reasonable guess and practice will get you some damage and kills, or at least might make the sub back off and let you get some distance.

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

@@aurelspecker6740 I’m just giving you a hard time.

[@aurelspecker6740]

@@quor2243 Yeah, second part "sub is moving" is clear and obvious. But the location is sometimes not just "a bit off" i had some "pings" and a second later the sub got spotted. and it was literally 2km further away than the ping and driving TOWARDS the ping. (Towards is important, as it makes the "sub was moving" argument simply irrelevant) How can one even hit a sub when the ping indication is so extremely off? It makes hitting subs just a lucky guess rather than something skill based.

[@ManOfChaiTea]

Subs can get nerfed to do no damage, for those people who didnt want them in the game, they will scream that they are OP till they are removed. Whats annoying is when you have a team mate in a DD who will cruise with you, and as soon as you fire torps they will turn into them to prevent you from doing any damage.

[@Mostropovich]

My experience playing submarine is that either you die, or spend the whole time running away from ASWs that are more numerous than the ships and kill you at any depth and you cannot escape, occasionally I manage to hit something, but what do I know, I'm merely a newby... Still I see that even the pros are saying that subs have been over-nerfed.

[@williamneitzel2249]

My royal pain is when I am engaged in a surface duel and get pinged. Hate trying to either avoid the sub or engage the sub with ASW while not being blapped by said surface ship.

[@hapexamendar1093]

Well that’s just a solid tactic, Alway shoot at distracted opponents.

[@dach829]

​@hapexamendar1093 I dud this yesterday with another dub player kept there attention while he rode up to en

[@AlanRoehrich9651]

@@williamneitzel2249 It's just another version of being tag teamed. The sub can force you to expose yourself to the surface ship, or get torped, and you have to try to keep him beaten down with depth charges. It's tough to switch back and forth. I try to never be alone.

[@mobilizedpanda3795]

Subs will always spawn on the same side of the map as the sub on your team. You should expect them the same as a torpedo DD.

[@starpirat]

if it wasnt the sub your would be avoiding its a dd on a drive by so get real and stop blaming subs

[@starpirat]

@richardhead1105 (Submarines) They were both buffed and nerfed so petty much status quo. DD should be the biggest threat to subs but they are the lowest. That in itself points to a major issue . bomb dropping range should be reduced and the empahsis on killing subs should go back onto the Destroyer. The only problem with that is that teams dont protect their destroyers so that leaves battleships open to attack.

[@samuelmcdonough3605]

I have all the stock subs and four premiums. I went from playing them every day to almost not at all. Getting put on the same side every single time is the worst. It’s mainly because they can detect each other without any notice to the other player. Whats the point of stealth when stealth detection exists. Last thing is ASW shouldn’t work when your on the surface, or make it damage other ships.

[@Mildly_Amused]

Before the nerfs, I was maintaining a 60-70% win rate in tier 8-10 subs playing solo and playing aggressive. After the nerfs, I have to play more passive and my win rate in theri 8-10 subs is 50-55% and its a lot harder to maintain that win rate. The ASW abilities and sub detection abilities added to the ships make it much more difficult. The slow speed of subs compared to many tier 9 and 10 surface ships can sometimes hinder my late game damage. Also, many times before the nerf when I was accused of shotgunning, it was when I fired torps form 4-6km away at a shot that was hugging an island, moving back and forth to poke out, fire, then go back into cover. They were easy prey even at 6km.

[@Goldenfire49]

Any range is shotgun range. If you get in undetected. It's a shotgun. Only time it isn't a shotgun is if you ping and give yourself away. Priceless mindset XD. And I'm still trying to figure out how people think subs are faster than DD's.

[@Mildly_Amused]

@@Goldenfire49 It appears that many different players have many different definitions of what a shotgunning a ship with a sub is. From what I've seen many players consider it shotgunning only when it happens at close range or happens when a sub is being chased and fires off all toprs at the pursuing subs.

[@Goldenfire49]

@@Mildly_Amused Lets be grateful then that WeeGee put there foot down and said, "anything within 3km"

[@Sticks_2005]

Playing now subs arnt playable. You get no kills and you have no ability to run. Your most of the time the only sub on the team so it’s like playing in a lobby where there is only one destroyer and your playing it

[@rustysimonds5011]

I have been saying this since the nerfs hit subs and even in numerous suggestion emails to WG with a reply saying that the suggestions have been received and the developers will see if they are able to be implemented in a patch at some stage if found to be viable. 1. Asw plane speed reverted back to normal, they now arrived at the sub target before the sub can react and evade the charges dropped. 2. Homing torps need to home better and are less likely to be evaded by ship manouvering when double pinged, infact if torp range is available double pinged torps should arc around to a missed target if ping still active. 3. Lowest depth should be a run silent depth, slow moving, no ping, no surface detection, no launching of torps, as a ship player, sub serv doesn't see sub underwater and depth charges do nothing. This gives a subs a safe place to get away from the action and ships can detect or hurt the sub,obviously the penalty would be air or speed. 4. Ping surface indicator should.only be seen buy the target being pinged, not everyone in the game, 5 secs on surface visual d 3 seconds on mini map 5. Subs should have a turbo prop button to increase underwater speed when detected increasing underwater speed by 20% for 20secs, can be used once every 3 to 5 mins depending on tier 6. 1 button torp, automatic to arming either dumb or homing, depending whether active ping at time of launch. If no active ping, dumb fired, if ping homing. Values change on impact depending what the situation was at that time.

[@cortlundtowell5252]

You brought up alot of good points. But subs are an iffy subject for me, I actually work in ASW. Subs IRL back then were high risk high reward solo hunters. Today they are OP possibly world ending ninjas that can bend over any surface ship with almost absolute impunity. Since we are focusing on WOWS, so old school stuff and we need it to balance in an arcade style game. This is hard cus back then Sub didn't hunt BBs or Cruisers. They hunted unarmed cargos and transports. They were supply line disrupters. I think they have the subs dialed in game as far as their robustness. They feel like iron coffins and they should. One of the easiest boats too sink irl and in game. However i think WOWS is severely underplaying their stealth capacity. I shouldn't be able to hide as a DD in some situations but not as a sub. Subs should have an an ability to go 100% dark in this era. Sonar wasn't that advance back then. It was just a trained guy listening to a very fancy, super sensitive sound system. On battery power and not moving at a depth of 30m or lower, you should be dead to the world. Also the fact that you use battery power at snorkel depth is stupid. The whole point of the snorkel is to intake air for the diesel motors and dump exhaust. Simply changing that dynamic might help alot. I would also prefer less torpedos and slower reloads, but over all a much more punishing payload. They min activation ring is perfect imo. I think as far as this game is concerned, Subs should be a silent high risk one shot killer. You play your card right and use stealth to your advantage to line up a solid shot. If you miss your downtime on reload should keep you from being OP and force you to relocate to keep your cover. And if at any point you F up and get found, it should just be immediate game over. I think WOWS has that part nailed. I also think Subs should be split into 2 classes/builds like IRL. Fast Attack (basically ASW/ADD) and instead of an SSBN cus thats not ERA correct. A solo BB/CV hunter. Something to play the long slow game. This way this keeps subs from dominating like CVs use too. But still has that fear factor that should exist to make sub enjoyable. A class for skilled objective and team oriented players to utilize. A useful contributing tool in the right hands or a wet chuck E cheese napkin in the wrong hands. Another final note to make is, the ping. technically any boat with Hydro should have perma passive listening, in the same 2/3 the range of active sonar and about 35m of depth. So an active ping should be a dead giveaway to a sub in that area. Active Hydro should also reveal the user location to subs, as subs should have perma passive listening as well. Or at least a similar game mechanic based off of this concept. I think it'd be really cool if Subs had to cut power and go silent if they got to close to boats with hydro or they would be auto revealed and wait to be fully passed over. This would give a new support aspect to cruiser in protecting BBs and CVs. And Keep Subs from just going wherever they like. This would force some thought and strategy. I want Subs in this game, And I believe they can be done right. I hadn't played in months till the yesterday and WOWS gave me a premium T8 britsh sub for free. SO I thought I'd give it a go. I found it to be very boring, time to target was too damn long and the damage output wasn't enough to risk being in range to hit anyone. everything you did was an immediate giveaway for no justifiable reason. There simply isn't enough time , resources or capacity to utilize a sub until late game. Basically you gotta sit on your ass and wait the first 45% of the game, hoping your team is setting up to use you. I do like how quickly you can be punished for being mismanaging your cover. just my 2 cents

[@ManOfChaiTea]

OP? Lol is that a joke?

[@cortlundtowell5252]

@@ManOfChaiTea no.

[@joqqthebandit7345]

Subs OP? XDDDDDDDDD

[@TXCHRISZ06]

Im a better than average sub player, people still cry when they are killed. Lets not let that distract us from the fact that I only spotted and tracked 3 or 4 targets all game, while the CVs were spotting, attacking and crushing every boat on the map for the entire match from a clock time 19:15.

[@Telefiend]

exactly

[@tonyennis1787]

CVs being a problem doesn't mean that subs aren't

[@TXCHRISZ06]

@tonyennis1787 Jager is more effective than most subs.

[@ToddMorgan-el5iy]

Ever since the death of RTS carriers this game has catered to the tantrum set of players - mainly destroyers, and to a lesser degree cruisers and BBs. The set of players with the shortest attention spans cry the loudest - and unfortunately the devs cater to the screaming children. Subs were greatly over nerfed as a result. Still enjoy this game but when you look at the shrinking player base I think its clear that pandering to the set I mentioned above is a bad idea. "Bad money drives out goid money" someone much wiser than me once said.

[@jaywerner8415]

I think the ONLY thing people still bitch about when it comes to subs any more is the FREQENCY of the PINGs. That spam of Pings will never stop being annoying. But yeah.... Subs where not that good to begin with, now they just SUCK! I would get 0-1 Kill on average as a Submarine, mostly because my Teamates would kill the enemy faster then I could since SHELLS are FASTER THEN TORPEDOS. Maybe 2 or 3 on a GOOD DAY. Like I'm pretty sure the Battleplan now is: You start the game by Spamming Homing Torpedoes from Max Range, then once most of the enemy team is dead or you find a ship alone you swap to the Normal Torps and proceed to hunt.

[@joshuakeller1969]

One gets more experience points in a sub just by spotting then by killing in average

[@johnwpmusic]

I just started playing them and my first sub is u-69 all decked out. the ping is my only hope of detecting ships and if you are zig zagging I still can't hit you.

[@starpirat]

yeah the team usually pretty much cleans up the kills as it takes torps to long to get there. You spot the ships for them and then the ships you fire torps are are killed before they get a chance to reach them.. its quite frustrating.

[@starpirat]

one of the battleships in the last update had its sigma rating increased from 2.0 to 2.1 and i have to ask what is the justification for that !!! Again protecting the Battleship investment of Wargaming as their biggest money earner, increasing its reload rates , increasing its sub depth charge bomb damage by 55- 75% . Why dont they just call it world of battleships, let them have their own maps and let them all play only with other battleships and let them bitch about how other battleships have killed them because they are OP or cheating etc like they do.

[@diefirmenwandler8667]

The Submarines made me play the game again. And not only that, it has become my main game to play again. I just love to play them and I love to hunt them.

[@volesprits]

the same :)

[@velogang9640]

@@volesprits im a sub main, im looking for others to div with that play often. if youre down add me! "FourSkinStrangler" we can wolf pack it up:)

[@brucenlong]

You all are just a bunch of peaches; they have dumbed down Sub to the point of being basically a jump scare in game. If you can sink ships in this game with a sub, then you have a ton of back up or the guy you just sank is an idiot.

[@MarBl66]

I love(d) submarines and shotgunning in particular. But I always hated the ping-homing nonsense and did not use it until the nerf. Since the nerf there are some subs I dont play anymore, like the russian which used to be my favorite. What you now see is mostly 4501 because its now the most effective sub. I rarely use any other now, not even Gato. And of course I ping all the time. In my opinion they should have limited the homing to anti-sub and kept the shotgunning. That would have been a more reasonable nerf, but of course opinions differ about that. Playing surface vessels, I was and still am annoyed by the pinging, but never was about shotgunning. Cause being shotgunned meant you did something wrong - most of the time you were playing solitair or stationary when shotgunned.

[@thelonelyturkey7902]

I am in the minority here likely but I think that shotgunning was overblown. I rarely was shotgunned by a sub when I played against them and the only time I actually had to shotgun as a sub was from over confident aggressive dds that did not zigzag when depth charging. I also think that the arming distance was completely not needed as dds can already shotgun other ships so I saw no reason for that to be implemented aside from getting rid of complaints from people who simply would rather not deal with them.

[@ModelTBattleshipHub]

I’m sorry but how many times do you have to nerf subs and CV’s. Just because the player base is crying all the time when they make a mistake soon DD’s will be nerfed then cruisers because people can’t handle the diversity of warfare on the ocean seas. I say GET GUD!

[@clmwrx]

This sounds like a comment made from someone who plays cvs and subs but couldn't do well in surface ships to save their life

[@ModelTBattleshipHub]

@@clmwrx dude I am genuinely a BB player. I just play smart and read the map. It’s not hard. Instead why not use brain instead of criticising other players.

[@xPureNRG007x]

Agree with regards to subs. They are not the monsters people are claiming to be, players just want to use the same strategies they used 4 years ago without adapting. CVs I disagree; changes to their spotting and WoWP mechanics are needed. I am a crappy CV player with a great CV win rate. Because that class has OP passive spotting.

[@brett76544]

Battleships still abandon a flank due to them, especially the weekend warriors. I have a feeling they have no idea of the changes. Now the changes to European and Italian cruisers is great. Now the Massachusetts and Guilio Cesar still have only the basic ASW or do not go anywhere close to subs period in them. The scarry part, I am having more fun in subs and do nuke people more with non homing torps just at longer ranges or about 4 to 5 km. That includes DDs.

[@TingSdeel]

I have a feeling, that Uboat should be the game you are playing

[@brett76544]

Tom Clancy SSN, then there was this old one on the original Nintendo. Both were more involved. WOW is easy mode compared to them. Still, I prefer them to WOW in sub game play.

[@austinhawkins3307]

Tbh, it doesnt matter how many "subs are pretty okay now" or "Subs die too easy" opinions. The community has been so traumatized by how strong they used to be, that youll almost never get a positive opinion on them. Im pretty sure this is 80% why thy havent been added to WOWSL yet.

[@HardNorthOutdoors]

the arming nerf is brutal. when your out of battery and running away. you almost always get run down by a cruiser or destroyer, you fire rear torps and they dont even move to miss them cus they know its little to no damage. then you get depth charged. they completely rendered suds defenseless cus at max depth you cant hide anymore.

[@nopens]

Good. Maybe youll start playing normal ships then.

[@HardNorthOutdoors]

@@nopens nope, still gonna play subs and annoy the crap out you haters ;)

[@TD-047]

I think the player base is so trash that subs just don't stand out as the THING.

[@gamesjuilianna3724]

They could have dealt with the shotgun issue without nurfing them to worthlessness. I don't even play them anymore.

[@gregorturner4753]

speed is the biggest problem. bar the 4501 a rowboat can outrun them and ships now just race up into 3km and ur farcked.

[@Alienvisitor007]

If friendly fire was a thing still you wouldn't see any subs because the team would kill them

[@stuffandwhatnot4401]

1. They still don't belong in the game. 2. They're not as bad as they were before. 3. They've never been as bad as CVs. At least subs have to risk themselves to attack.

[@gleighteen7525]

I'm probably part of the reason why subs were nerfed, I was the shotgunner and I exclusively picked on clan bois in bb's. S189 and Gato were my shotgunners and occasionally the Alliance. Nothing better than cramming torps down the throat of clan bois who can't use those hacks / tricks to avoid the destruction. Back after a year off, nothing but SS for me, I enjoy pissing people off in game.

[@gleighteen7525]

Just had a few drops in the S189. Still useful with the unguided torps since they are quick. Just have to launch at the 4km range if they are closing on you to get decent damage. No more unleash death at 2.2km and laugh. I'm sticking with driving subs. Yes it's been nerfed but still playable if you know what you are doing.

[@daveyboygee]

One huge problem is with the mechanics is that there is no sub that should be detectable by a destroyer at periscope depth. In fact there should be no sub that is detectable by a DD even at surface depth. It just doesn't make any sense in physics models or real life.

[@vecioalpin8998]

Exactly. In current situation when a sub come to periscope depth is immediately spotted by a DD snce the detectioin range is equal. However while DD can use guns, sub is hopeless and unarmed.

[@tonyennis1787]

I play tiers 5-7 usually. Subs are not as bad as they were. I haven't been sunk by subs very much lately, but I also haven't sunk many lately. it simply takes far too many depth charges to sink a sub if the player has any skill at all. It's a different story if multiple players send depth charge bombers of course. The primary issue remains - there's no meaningful counterplay. You guess where he's going to be based upon scant and inaccurate information, and sometimes you get a hit. Otherwise the sub is puking torpedos at you. And if you dodge them (just dodge!) a BB is waiting to citadel you to port because you will expose a broadside.

[@TheLPN05Fan]

Beeing a fresh player having started in March for the very first time playing this game, having so far unlocked 3 T8's and 4 T7's, I don't mind them really much after the most recent changes. Italian U-Boat search is weak though but if I did to Subs itnwas misplacement of my ship, most often not actually getting killed by them just spotted. In DD's they're hard to counter though, you're a far bigger target to everyone else compared to the sub.

[@davidhines7592]

i find i play subs less often mainly because i have more games where i hit nothing with torps, even if im not sunk pretty fast. i never went shotgunning anyway, but i wont say theyre unplayable now. i'd say they're frustratingly boring most games. then again i dont own a fast sub that can keep up with a target or get 3km plus away to do something useful with torps. and that means im not grinding past u69 (which was never unbalanced to start with) and undine, so i never will. i suppose it killed subs as a playable line because why play something that is mostly just underwater missing, or sunk fast, or chasing on the surface and getting only the occasional cap assist?

[@tommycooker3996]

Yes, both subs and cv’s are still a problem. They have taken the fun out of the game and are as obnoxious as from introduction. WG should remove them asap.

[@00spinz35]

It's like I don't even need to watch the video , subs and cvs are still broken and don't belong , any opposing opinion is just incorrect

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

Skill issue. They’re not being removed. Get over it

[@roostersperchhomestead506]

Subs are fun but I feel there should be more options for detection cvs are just annoying tbh

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

@@roostersperchhomestead506 neither are going anywhere you can stop crying that they’re annoying.

[@vecioalpin8998]

WG should also limit incompetent players to co op only.

[@LoLxDroflunso]

it's the same problem everytime. People that don't play subs complain about them without knowing how bad and boring sub gameplay became. There are so many situations where you cant get in range for your torps and if you use them at long range people just dodge them so you have to get in close and now you are spotted and dead in seconds. You have good games in subs sometimes but everything has to work out for you to get one. Even if you know what you are doing there are are 2 out of 3 games where you cant do much it just feels so unsatisfiying to play them. At this point just get them out of the game give me back the recources i payed for them.. they are still kinda playable but its just not fun anymore and reading the rest of the comments here the only surfaceshipenjoyers are still complaining. if they cant balance it then just remove them all together... Although i play surfaceships most of the time i really enjoyed the casual sub games here and there but not anymore. The gameplay is just shit and they either change it or remove them imo.

[@LoLxDroflunso]

And what bothers me even more is the fact that dds are in most games way more annoying and impactful than subs ever where and jet they still are unchanged. Why can dds still shotgun me around corners and subs cant why cant subs defend themselfs if i just drive into a 3km range of them they cant do anything anymore, they cant escape because most of them are quite slow they cant kill you because they do 10% of their dmg.

[@Telefiend]

also, I constantly send my torps on their way and they take so long to get where they are going that I often watch my target get sunk by surface fire before my torpedoes get there.

[@mathiasrryba]

playing german subs like long range torpedo snipers works pretty well. You can be a real menace.

[@quor2243]

Statistically DDs and cruisers have the most impact to WR, BBs have the best average damage, at least in the tier 10 ships of the higher skilled players. There are a few CVs that are effective but zero subs. So no, subs are not that useful overall, just annoying to those that have a bias against them.

[@gregcavender7798]

It's amazing what a great CV player can do for a team. Luckily, there are very few great ones. Be interesting to see if they get nerfed hard or a little slap.

[@badbuddy0934]

It took me 6 hours to realise i need the fire acoustic torpedo from lone rang

[@panagiotis.argyris]

This video gets the point of sub warfare now. I have been a sub player since the testing with more than 2.500 battles with subs. Sea Lord is right, the happy times for us are over , shot gunning added a nice extra damage to your plate , although was very rare that you will survive after. the 2.9 rule ditched the I 56 and specially the S 189 , their main damage was from shot gunning. Now with the players getting better at dealing with subs, playing them its like a suicide mission , your only hope to deal damage is to find a really inexperienced player. Spotting is not so east either with 2-3 depth charges you are finished , and what to say about hydro, surface radar, sub surveillance in some cruisers and the enemy sub that is put by WG in the same cap. I still play them but have to change my gameplay , try to stay alive longer , as Sea lord said , only at the end of the game the sub can be a lethal weapon. The change of the shot gunning is understandable, although highly unrealistic , there is only 2 premium subs with dabloons in the game and about 200 hundred , bb , and cruisers and dd? Thank you

[@jackaubrey8614]

"...your only hope to deal damage is to find a really inexperienced player" - unless you happen to find someone who is already up to their neck in dealing with surface enemies? Double up-tiered in my Strasbourg, heading in towards a cap with islands on three sides and I know I have (on my port quarter) a DD, couple of CA's and a BB way back to fight - could be a fun game... Start engaging them and then a sub (USN Tier 8 - I forget the name) appears on my RIGHT quarter followed by his first salvo of homing torps (and of course, lots of pings).....and then he reverses course and send his rear tubes too...and then same again when his forward tubes rearm. All the while pinging me like crazy. Please don't tell me "shotgunning" no longer exists - this is as good as. Point is, if DD's can score with unguided torps, subs should have the same restriction - homing torps are just STUPID.

[@panagiotis.argyris]

I agree with you. Homing torps should have not been introduced and subs should have the same torps like dds , shot gunning included, but with less detection and anti sub measures. homing torpedoes are highly unrealistic were never used in battle . WG confuses homing torps with acoustic torps that were used in German subs at the end of ww2. (they got only 3 ships). I also got many players were they were busy with other ships as you said. the sub was the Salmon tier 8

[@MarBl66]

I miss the old times so much. S189 was my absolute favorite in the entire game and I used homing exclusively against enemy subs. Now the fun is gone and I dont touch it anymore. If pinging is what the crybabies wanted, I hope they enjoy me using 4501 extensively.

[@johnwpmusic]

Submarines are essential to naval operations but if you detect them you can kill them easily. the only saving grace a sub player has is deep diving and waiting for the bombs to pass.

[@WisKy64VT]

I have once been in a triple sub + double carrier match, it was crazy hahaha

[@Lore-Hammer40K]

As a cv main. I finally worked on some tech tree ships after playing exclusive cv all the ways to super carrier. Now while grinding the schliefen I understand why people hate them. It’s the tandem combo of getting shotgunned AND spotted it’s cancer and I finally get it

[@1337flite]

Luekemia is teriible - says melanoma. 🙂

[@EhnTeePee]

Subs shouldn't be able to ping you outside of your ASW flights. Being pinged from 10 km and only having 8 km ASW. Having a ping speed and direction is useless when you're staring at them out of range. Stupid...

[@tdbraun6837]

I like that I have been able to successfully go after and attack a sub with my DD now, although it is risky -- but in the past it was simply suicidal to do that (even though they were the best at doing that in real life).

[@partyalldaypartyallnight1057]

Rarely have i been sunk by a submarine. Maybe once in the year or two i've been playing. Getting kills with subs is rare for me. I have to catch that lone ship or get lucky with them being distracted or having nowhere to turn with an unguided torp run at distance. Between islands, channels. but if they have depth charges and hydrophone? I'm toast. Nowhere to run. Cant go but so deep.

[@activebaskingshark1018]

I don't think the play base will be happy until the only options are HE spam or citadels at long range

[@sabrewolf4129]

Dont forget 1 shots with 100% accuracy at 30km away with a snap shot every time

[@CSpiv662]

Nah, we will be happy only when subs are removed as the cash grabbing mistakes that they are. Are you suprised that wg introduced a broken auto win class and then once people bought into it, they then nerfed it. Remove the junk sub class and make the game good again.

[@pepedelacruz5767]

@@CSpiv662cope

[@Mythodust]

Had a game last night in my T8 German sub U-190 did 80k damage took down a battleship a cruiser and a sub I felt like a real stud

[@andreasa6136]

It's better now with the reduced shotgunning. However, the inherent problem is still around - gameplay wise they are just not fun to play against for surface ships. That and also the presence of a sub makes everybody stay back so they are part of why we have this passive games in Randoms. I mean, the sub can also be played as an overpowered destroyer immune to radars which make them very powerful for spotting.

[@MetallicBKW]

I like the arming distance vs most surface ships, not a fan of it vs other subs and destroyers. As some subs have no defence vs a rampaging DD or a close combat sub. and why subs on surface still have no AA.

[@MuckRatz]

Subs in the first part of the game is a spotter. The spotting for the team is the real danger. Only past the half game, the damage starts counting

[@infooverpower6989]

its a pain in as$ if you are a tier 6 submarine for real

[@larswhitt1549]

had a fun experince, hunting a sub in my jäger. he was pinging me and pinging me and i just sat on his side so no torps could not be aimed at me untill i could dump depth charges on his ass.

[@mathiasrryba]

jager is especially nasty since it's got lower surface detection range from a sub. Was holding one flank and then got surprise buttsex delivered by a jager just popping up behind me lol

[@xlorian]

The problem with WoWS is that it’s a arcade game where the developers try to force team play. While that might make sense for Surface Fleets it absolutely doesn’t for Subs. By nature they are the lone wolf predator of ships. I’ve had bad experience playing Subs because you have so little recourse when dealing with the overwhelming ASW ability. It takes a mater of seconds for every Cruiser and BB to launch an attack on you with excellent splash damage. If I don’t have a team to protect the Sub the ships can just run you down and there is nothing you can do. My lost win rates and overall damage is lowest when using subs. Shot gunning that’s what DDs do all the time and in fact I few torpedos then some German BBs. The sub player actually has to expose themselves to a counter attack when shot gunning at close range

[@davidwhitfield6025]

I finally bought the Gato and I feel I wasted the steel. Yes it hits hard when it hits which is usually only dumb BB captains who sail in a straight line 11 km away. You guys get what you deserve. At the higher tiers there are so many ways to detect subs on the surface and bellow. I don't see a game which doesn't have a cruiser equipped with sub surveillance which can be activated from the beginning of the game. I'm back playing German and Brit DDs hunting subs which at least is fun (for me - sux for the sub). Here on the Asian server even seeing a sub is not likely , more like 1 in 4 games that I have played and very rarely see 2 subs aside. At higher tiers I play the WoT light tank role of passive spotting which is ok (although with radar and sub surveillance it is definitely not easy) and while I do generate a lot of points for it my damage count has dropped dramatically and frankly if I want to be a passive spotter all game I'll just play WoT.

[@grayboats7741]

Subs here since I started. I'd rather a 2 sub game over any DD's! And with the nerf, I can no longer defend myself against DD's or ASW cruisers. They get close & I die. I've also gotten good at hunting subs in a BB. Think 1/2 the complaints just people that hate change. Often un UK BB's, and can still dodge with a single ping.

[@clmwrx]

Most bbs can dodge a single ping easily at least once. Def more if kiting away. Bbs have the biggest homing cutoff after all. It's not hard to do it's just painful when also dodging surface ships. Cvs cause the same kind of ordeal. Altho cvs are even better at creating crossfire out of nowhere

[@clmwrx]

I'd rather have the dds over subs just because I have more of a chance of interacting with them. They're a more satisfying interaction as well

[@clmwrx]

Like that's what really sucks about a match with 2 subs and 1 cv. That's 3 ships that you will basically have no real fun interaction with. Cvs are worse again no matter what tho. More chance of directly damaging a sub than a cv. Plane interactions are very unsatisfying

[@grayboats7741]

@@clmwrx DD's keeping just out detection range worse. At least with a sub I can turn in and catch it.

[@clmwrx]

@@grayboats7741 but a sub can just dive underwater. Dds have a lot more risks involved

[@drink15]

I remember shot gunning my first BB, i felt bad. Glad its gone

[@seanduncantx]

I’ve had some issues with hitting them when they are turning though that may just be a misunderstanding with how the indicator works. Though the biggest problem I’ve seen is fighting them in an island cruiser. I’ve had my poor Des Moins get half of her health deleted at the start of the match just as I’m getting into position.

[@cmbart1]

Subs are a problem...if you're a sub player like I am. They got over-nerfed. Translation: WAAAAAAA THEY SANK MY BATTLESHIP TOO OFTEN! The torpedo damage scaling is STUPID, however I'm actually OK with having a minimum range. BB's need way more limited antisub planes per game. If the sub has to cooperate to survive then so should the BB. I'd also like to see a snorkel to recharge batteries at periscope depth because the underwater time is ridiculously limited. It's like they made the nerfs specifically to make the subs overly killable.

[@Gotico-hg2xr]

I was a DD following a sub while submerged. It was faster than me…

[@PigPissBeUponThem]

Cap.

[@LoLxDroflunso]

It's not subs are really slow with a few exceptions like the u4501, but most subs are sub 30knots

[@clmwrx]

​@@PigPissBeUponThem u4501 can be about impossible to catch up to unless you're in a fast dd

[@communisticus191]

@@LoLxDroflunso tbf a lot of t10 DDs will be around 30 kts if the sub is actually attacking them (since the DD will have to maneuver to dodge torps). So you can run into situations where it takes you half the map to actually catch them in slower DDs vs faster subs

[@mikehenthorn1778]

The changes have made subs and CVs much like the old rts cvs. The skill floor is so high that if you get a person who plays them a lot they are way overpowered. If you get an avg player then they get crushed.

[@quor2243]

The stats don't support this comment. Of the best of the best players DDs, cruiser, and BBs are the most effective ships, with a few CVs mixed in. So no subs and CVs are not overpowered even in the hands of a good player compared to what good players do with all the surface ships.

[@vecioalpin8998]

@@quor2243 finally someone who use data to support opinion instead of nonsense bla bla Thanks!

[@quor2243]

@@vecioalpin8998 Data is there to support facts to toss opinions back in someone's face, but whatever. haha

[@Agress0r]

To be honest, to see a real difference before and after the nerf all you need to do is to play lesta's version of the game, where subs doesn't have 3.1km damage reduction nerf. I've grinded to the K-1 ( russian gato tech line analogue) in 1-2 day from scratch and this thing obliterates anyone in one go if you play it correctly. Plus people there also dont have improved indicator of sub's location after ping, and, u know, u no need to ping if u know what's ru sub line is all about. On EU we have buffed damage of all torps and bigger dodge potential thanks to the improved turning circle on subs ( it helps very little, but it helps anyway). So it's like this - spam-ping from mid to long range with no other options left / hard and risky to execute. Well, from a sub-player perspective, im getting more fun from trying to come close undetected and shotgun someone, so lesta's version of subs of course is my favourite. I played subs on beta / on release / after first nerfs and depth charges buffs / and now, and to be honest, now subs on eu is very weak + un-engagin to play state. Only 4501 is interesting to play for me, because of the Ferrari underwater speed.

[@jacoblounsbury]

I agree to some point with this video, but I do feel that if they were going to Nerf the torpedo power they should have compensated the time you could spend underwater and or the depth you could go to. Like I feel like that submarines should be able to avoid depth charges if possible by going like let's say 80 maybe 100 on the depth scale instead of 60. Because at least then you know the sub has an opportunity to avoid but to compensate for that it burns up more battery. So the deeper you go the more battery you burn. But yeah, they are an annoyance at this point but I do believe that the submarines, the i-56 and the gato should have been compensated because those submarines were made for shotgunning and now they can't fulfill that role. So that's my opinion on that, but who knows what they're going to go next with. I mean we're getting the USS Archer fish now so who knows what the next submarine tech line is going to be. They so could do the Japanese. They could redo the Russian line, you know. Maybe we'll get French submarines who knows at this point

[@bobbygeorge3698]

i haven't yet got an opinion on subs, yes they were a pain in the bum, so i have started to play them, and i think that as they are, subs can be quite fun.

[@MrShaggy789]

People complain about subs, me included, but DD's and light cruisers with high dpm and torps are always on the top of the leaderboard. Way too overpowered. Weakest class are BB's.

[@vecioalpin8998]

sshhh don t say this .. the DD mafia is very powerful in the game!

[@gregcavender7798]

A good DD player steers the outcome of the game the most in my opinion. I mean he can't save stupid players, but you know what I mean.

[@matheusfiorelli8829]

12:58 i remember these 2 guys, Austia and Polaris playing T10 CVs back in the day, they were the definition of Skycancer, having either in your team it was a 90% chance of victory, and when they faced each other, lets just say it wasnt a fun experience for the other players 😂😅 pretty sure ive seen at least 2 hard gained Solo Warriors while in a match with them the only way you could avoid them was to be in a full AA Des Moines or Mino, anything less and you were just XP for them xD

[@jackcrawford6078]

Don't care for subs, but If I being hunted by a sub or a CV...I choose hunted by a sub everytime.

[@JarlSeamus]

My only beef with subs now is that you can't detect them on hydro at longer ranges, and they can outrun DDs. I can deal with the Hydro stupidity, if they get a speed nerf

[@darwinism8181]

Not a single submarine can outrun a same tier DD on the surface

[@Jimmy_CV]

The fastest subs can only do about 35 on the surface what?

[@communisticus191]

@@Jimmy_CV and some of the slowest T10 dds will only do 30-32kts if forced to maneuver to dodge torps. 35 is the regular top speed of a lot of T10 dds and is faster than the speed of some without speed boost

[@Jimmy_CV]

@communisticus191 so the submarine can match at full flank but cant outrun or fire back at a pursuing dd. If you are being killed by a sub in a dd u must have serious potato syndrome

[@starpirat]

in the last version 13 update, stats now show that submarine damage is down 15% but battleship players are still whinning about it. The dev blog also shows battleships on high tier have their depth charge bombs damage increased from 55-75 % which is "OP". Wargaming is protecting its major money earner, the battleship, by giving them in range depth charge bombers of any range of submarine torps of 10k planes, Which means that submarines will always be in the range of battleship planes, they just need to learn how to use them. Most of them think they need to stay omnipotent and dont need to change or take damage from submarines and dont learn the strategies to evade submarine torps while at the same time bleating on forums and discord about how unfair submarines are, especially the ones that havent tried how difficault it can be in a sub. I dont hear them bleating about destroyer torp drive bys which happen often. A Battleship can hit another serface ship and take out three quarters of its health in one salvo, so why arent they complaining about that.

[@hapexamendar1093]

Well, I’m in the “game is finally making some sense” camp. I would still like to see an AA mini-game!!

[@jbktiger]

It is certainly better. I do think there is still some issue with some of the ASW stuff and range. They do not bother me nearly like they used to. CVs and the inability of AA to function at all is a much bigger issue at this point. I hate seeing a CV MUCH MUCH more than seeing a sub any more

[@starpirat]

if they were serious about keeping subs then they would give all subs a heal funtion. It seems unfair that the ships with the most armor have heals but the subs with the least armor have none, except for the u-4501 and its not over powered at all as its always in the range of spamming Battleship bombers when attacking

[@10thAveFreezeOut]

Players roll around in their tier X ships and get used to bullying, so when they can't bully the map they cry and stamp their feet. That's the real problem.

[@pheebs8451]

British subs are so much harder to play compared to German subs. Theres a massive disparity in the sub game. I might get 40k damage in a tier 8 British sub, I have no issues getting 100k with a German sub at the same tier consistently. I never see rarely see British subs at tier 8. I’ve never seen one in a tier 10 game. They’re always German.

[@MarBl66]

Totally aggree, they are not competitive - neither befor nor after the nerf. And then the Alliance is even more of a mystery. What on earth is that thing good for? I really like the looks of the british subs but never play them.

[@gregcavender7798]

Yeah, the Sturdy is junk but at tier X (for tech tree) the Thrasher homing torps can do 50% more DPM and is equal to the nonhoming U-2501 torps. The Thrasher is slower under water which is a struggle at times. Especially with the 3k nerf. The Premium Alliance is actually quite good at 8. It's different to play. It actually has twice the turning/tracking homing as any other torp, but the torps are sooo slow, slower than a lot of ships. Oddly the two highest torp DPM are both tier 8's the I-56 and Alliance. (Gato is 3rd) All are with non-homing torps. And the nerf ruined the I-56. I probably have the most sub games on my U-69 although my Alliance may be catching up. I actually find sub game play a nice change from the surface ships. But it's taught me not to be near as worried about subs because they have plenty of weaknesses to exploit. Especially now.

[@jimr5703]

Gold ammo in the premium shop next, and gold torps for subs and CVs.

[@migo5205]

Sometimes its funny to be on asw watch with a destroyer against a good sub captain 😃👍

[@rovelfox7832]

I feel they targeted the wrong issues with subs with these changes, and think they should have focused more on tuning the homing torps rather than shotgunning. I really enjoyed the thrill of getting in close with subs, and greater preferred it when enemy subs came in close to actually interact with me so I could kill them. The frustrating gameplay for me was the boring sit at the back and lob homing torps and only going underwater if there was a radar cruiser about, and now that's all there is. It's boring to play, and far more annoying than shotgunning ever was. They also butchered sub on sub combat which I found exciting, now you just tap the reveal sub button and let your team have all the fun. Somewhat related, I've been enjoying operations and wish I could use my subs there with my friends. The one sub operation is boring and repetitive. Overall the PvE content in game is criminally neglected.

[@spiderz8144]

Idk. I am NOT a sub player, but when I do happen to play them for a challenge, I typically get top of my team or close to it.

[@professorq4081]

I feel fragile when playing Submarines. Especially when playing I-56. I have to pray to god my trops hit something.

[@guillaumed196]

I-56 is pretty much useless nowadays

[@felszi1043]

Its perfect this way. The interaction with subs (especially in battleships) is absolute torture and zero fun. I hope every single sub player has a terrible time in their sub now, to the point where its unplayable. Subs are still obnoxious to interact with. And every CV/Sub player is ruining this game

[@grayboats7741]

Neg. I love sub hunting in my BB's. Love imagining the face as I dodge torps then sink them.

[@cmdmd]

They were added. The game is an arcade fun game, not a realistic game and certainly not a simulation. Subs are nullified 100% when any DD or CA gets to within 3km of them.

[@nucleus_underfire4666]

The in-game chat 🤣

[@FltCaptAlan]

I run mainly Ops and Asyms (when WG blesses us with them), no sub problems over there,

[@mathiasrryba]

subs are funny in asymmetric. If bots don't get a CV you can really reliably solo the entire game if you need to.

[@xPureNRG007x]

WG needs to follow thru on their commitment of adding more Operations, and opening them up to more tiers too.

[@johnloy9331]

Submarines and CV's have NO business in a SURFACE BATTLE!!

[@vecioalpin8998]

then play tetris... there are no subs there

[@sycology2486]

Give support CVS a dropable 10k sonar bouy they outspot most dds so when the dd goes into a cap spotted by a sub it's usually auto deleted dd why do dds not get the sub surveillance instead of cruisers that can't get close enough to use it

[@frosty3693]

Maybe Sea Lord needs to play DDs more. DDs need the airstrike ASW too. With other teamates around A DD will get shot at by everybody on the red team while having to dodge torps. If the sub is close enough the Italian DDs with exhaust smoke and speed boost has a shot. After subs I only play maybe once a month and WG has not gotten any money from me.

[@yamatokurusaki5790]

In my german submarine i couldn't kill anything even with full salvo hit on battleship or cruiser I couldn't kill the torpedoes didn't do nothing

[@ChristopherCarpenter-i5x]

Ya the joys of being in a tier 5 BB with subs and cvs, thanks but I'll stay gone.

[@octaviusmorlock]

It's nice that at least some sub hate has decreased. I'm really looking forward to the FTP video.

[@joshuayang0331]

i'd tried playing the u69 a few days ago, i had to say, it's ok, just try to live longer( which is getting hard after the rework), and well, i'm not very good at this type of ship to be honest, that's why i'm still in t6, not much motivation to climb up the line after the rework, i'd once lived to the end of the game, and it really shines then, damage came much easier and well, if you had the points lead, it's just very powerful, just go under and wait for the points to tick while they try to find you, but well, living is really much harder these days, regularly got killed is a norm for me, and killing and avoiding is much easier for surface ships, so i'd say it's a good rework( not like that strange and too complicated one that's coming soon)

[@strikerreno8319]

holy moly this man is pumping out content faster the slop live