Week 309 - Allies Issue Potsdam Declaration - WW2 - July 27, 1945

[@WorldWarTwo]

It is thanks to the TimeGhost Army that we are able to produce this series. Without them, none of this would have been possible. Join the TimeGhost Army on Patreon: www.patreon.com/join/TimeGhostHistory

[@GoodEggGuy]

Could the descriptions of future episodes please have an easy-to-find link to the Korea channel. Thank you.

[@MayaMediated]

Great episode, but was hoping to hear about Lucky Fluckey and the only invasion of the Japanese islands by US forces though. And his rocket attacks.

[@johnmcguigan7218]

In the English election, British troops voted overwhelmingly for Labour, while the officers voted mostly Tory. The troops had had enough of being lorded over by the mostly upper-class officer corp. This was one of the most dramatic examples of class divisions still in England. Atlee's government began the dismantling of the British empire, much to Churchill's dismay, and passed the National Health Care Act--an astonishingly brave move in the face of postwar bankruptcy and austerity, and had endured as perhaps the most cherished piece of parliamentary legislation in all British history.

[@gunman47]

A sidenote this week on July 26 1945 is that British minesweeper Vestal will become heavily damaged by a Japanese kamikaze attack near Thailand. She would later be scuttled, becoming the last Royal Navy ship to be sunk in the war.

[@TheIfifi]

Lest we forget.

[@matthewkistler9133]

I miss when they would mention things like this.

[@TrickiVicBB71]

I remember they used to mention how many merchant ships were sunk at the end of every month. e​@matthewkistler9133

[@736693]

Vestal & another British minesweeper Squirrel (which hit a Japanese mine & was also scuttled) were participating in Operation Livery, a series of bombing & minesweeping missions in & around Malaya during the summer of 1945.

[@briantarigan7685]

the second to last Royal Navy ship being sunk by the enemy action would also be sunk this week, Minesweeping ship called Squirel, the ship was also in the same operation as Vestal and it hit a mine that kill 7 men

[@indianajones4321]

Truman: We have a new weapon to end the war with Japan Stalin: Oh the atomic bomb? Truman: What? Stalin: What!

[@jesoma0708]

Felix Steiner: Yes!

[@ethanhatcher5533]

​@@jesoma0708 ....mien Fuhrer

[@siljeff2708]

*Stalin dances the Stalin Shuffle*

[@gnyrinn]

I mean, Stalin could've as a flex, just citing Flyorov's deduction. All the Western nuclear scientists who stopped publishing research in the winter of 1941-42 had to have been up to something.

[@freetolook3727]

The Soviets pretended that they didn't know about the bomb and the US pretended that they didn't know the Soviets knew about the bomb! 😂😂

[@JesseOaks-ef9xn]

A much deserved "Thank You" and "Congratulations" for all that you have done in covering World War II.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Much appreciated Jesse, we couldn't have done it without the TimeGhost Army. We still have plenty left we want to do so we aren't going anywhere anytime soon!

[@JarodFarrant]

@@WorldWarTwoI wan to thank the team for everything they’ve done I’ve been fallowing since 1942 😂 can you please make a video on Canada’s role in the war?

[@jonbaxter2254]

So close to the end.

[@scottski02]

Sato: "Potsdam is a big scare bomb." America: "Very poor choice of words."

[@foobar9220]

I think, without mentioning the atomic bomb (not sure if Japan would understand it anyway), this just looks like yet another demand for unconditional surrender. Just imagine you are the Japanese and know nothing about atomic bombs. What could "destruction" mean other than an amphibious invasion and a draw out bloody fight like on Okinawa? There is nothing swift about it.

[@mnemonija]

​@@foobar9220well they have seen firebombing of Tokyo, and each of the nuclear bombs produced fewer fatalities than bombing of Tokyo. At least initially, not sure about the long term consequences.

[@magnashield8604]

​@@foobar9220the japanese had the Ni-Go a f F-Go projects to enrich uranium 235. There is some speculation on how successful they had become, however, the Japanese were not ignorant of atomic weapons research.

[@foobar9220]

@@magnashield8604 There is a huge difference between having a rough understanding that an atomic bomb might be possible and knowing the extent of the damage caused. Looking back at last week's test, it seems that the American scientists underestimated that as well. And both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were still mostly intact and the effect of the bomb could be better observed. Another hint, that even the Americans were not entirely sure, how destructive it really is Threats are a finicky thing. You have to make sure that the threatened party understands what will happen if they do not comply. And for them it needs to be more attractive to comply than face the consequences. The Potsdam declaration does a really bad job at this. Viewed from the outside, it is just another bunch of threats, asking for an unconditional surrender that has been asked for a long time.

[@magnashield8604]

@@foobar9220 then your first comment is moot. Why mention the atomic bomb at all, by your logic in the second statement? The firebombing of Tokyo was a real tangible event that laid waste to the city. It is obvious that the Americans were not using empty threats. The Japanese greatest fear was the destruction of the rice crop, as Indy mentioned. There is an argument to be made that letting an adversary, that has already suffered terribly, just imagine what could be possible is better than explaining in detail the consequences. The real threat is when the point is made that there will be no negotiated peace. Only the death cult of the high command and officer corp of the military, would be willing to continue as long as there was a fight to be had. The result of the atomic bombings was the realization that there would be no glorious last battle where millions of Japanese would take the lives of millions of invaders as they fought to the least man. Instead, it seemed, their adversary would be willing to help them just die. How does that sort of message get conveyed without actual proof? Wanting the Potsdam declaration to achieve this is wish casting. It is expecting a document to convey a truth that had never been experienced. There was no reason to mention the atomic bomb, as it would have put the Japanese on high alert to be on the lookout for small formations of b-29s. At this point in the war they had stopped trying to go after the bombers, preserving their strength for that last great battle. The Potsdam declaration was not a detailed list of consequences, it was instead a diplomatic document of what the Japanese could expect; total defeat and unconditional surrender.

[@gunman47]

Another sidenote on July 25 1945 is that Philippe Pétain will cause an uproar when he spoke for the first time during his trial. He claimed that he was deaf and had not heard a thing that had been said in court up to that time. Many in the courtroom did not believe him, pointing out that he had frequently appeared to be listening attentively and fidgeted the most when serious charges were being made against him.

[@robertjarman3703]

Just what in the Lion of Verdun's mind happened to make him become such a traitor. The world wonders.

[@gunman47]

@@robertjarman3703 Probably only the man himself will ever know...

[@WalterReimer]

(adjusts the vertical hold on his crystal ball) He doesn't have too long to go; the Reaper has him on her list.

[@evocorporation6537]

I'd say he was already suffering from dementia, given that (spoiler) when his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment by house arrest, he would "direct armies" and think it was 1916 again

[@garcalej]

Y’all should be generals by now.

[@pnutz_2]

I know there's still war left, but I'd like to thank all the regulars for posting here over the years - dickson phua/gunman47, indiana jones, gianni, all the others I can't immediately remember, you've all made the chat a great place Also that Dutch guy that accused me of being a historian back in February 1942 when I made a joke about the imminent removal of the D from ABDA command and how Indonesia was totally defensible guys

[@gunman47]

Thanks for the mention man, it was great reading your comments too. I will likely be less active in the comments for the Korean War channel videos, but I will still swing by from time to time if I can!

[@pnutz_2]

@@gunman47 I've been making less comments on Korea but that's because they go live overnight on tuesday/wednesday so the initial period to post is gone quickly

[@sopwithsnoopy8779]

I work 3rd shift, so I'm sleeping when the Korean War videos are posted.

[@davidkinsey8657]

Will Spartacus be covering the Nuremberg Trials in a follow-up to the War Against Humanity sub-series.

[@jliller]

And the less famous Tokyo Trials, I hope.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Sparty will be covering it at a later date.

[@MrMineHeads.]

@@WorldWarTwo What of the Tokyo Trial?

[@Patrik.Larsson]

What about the droid attack on the Wookies?

[@unironically1]

just barely a month more to go, it has been an honour watching this journey took place. thanks indy sparta & team! the tense excitement of expecting what's coming makes me can't wait.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you, appreciate the comment. -TimeGhost Ambassador

[@michaelnewton5873]

Spoiler much?

[@adaw2d3222]

From the Great War to World War Two to Korea. I still remember the Hötzendorf socks from way back for some reason.

[@Warszawski_Modernizm]

And Cuba 1961, Suez 1956, Interwar period on top of that

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you for being with us for so long, still more to come!

[@AppleBiscuits]

I still have the Isonzo thunderdome poster. I don't think any of the old merch is available anymore, which is a horrid shame. I wanted more ways to make fun of Conrad.

[@Warmaker01]

Yes. When the war ends, Nagato is the last Japanese Battleship still afloat. You can even find post-war images online of her in port with US warships like New Jersey. When the Pacific War started, Nagato was also the flagship of Combined Fleet. The message "Niitaka yama nobore," or "Climb Mount Niitaka" was the code broadcast from her for 1st Air Fleet (Kido Butai) to carry out the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[@TheNfl100]

That McCain is the grandfather of Senator John McCain

[@leepreston9637]

I thought it was his father

[@Significantpower]

​@@leepreston9637Nope, but he was also an Admiral named John. Easy to mix up lol

[@svenrio8521]

Rip Maverick

[@JobberBud]

Are you sure? Senator McCain was at least 187 when he died.

[@francispaniagua4228]

@@JobberBud I knew it

[@dereks1264]

Churchill was the right guy for the war but would be totally the wrong guy for the post-war period. This was demonstrated when he was returned to power in 1951. He could never reconcile himself to the dissolution of the British Empire and wound up as "yesterday's man" plagued with health problems.

[@jeffersonwright6249]

Didn’t stop him serving a 2nd term as PM 1951-1955 tho

[@Johnem-Love]

carried almost, his health problems (debiltating and obvious) were politely not remarked upon - as to do so was ill-mannered and just not the right thing to do; venturing such would be bad form indeed. His evensong did pave the way for Eden to dovetail into the top job after. Yes the public warmed up to the old bulldog, and he oversaw both the coronation of the new Queen, and the grand spectacle of the Festival of Britain.

[@GRB-tj6uj]

​@@jeffersonwright6249the 1951 election was a bit weird. Labour won the popular vote with an all time high number of votes but due to Britains let's say quirky electoral system the conservatives ended up with a majority of 17. And I think that if you analyse the campaign the conservative succes had little to do with people clamouring for a return to Churchill

[@rickden8362]

@@GRB-tj6uj The 1951 Churchill was just a US lacky. He did what ever the US wanted as long as they backed any of his ill thought-out plans to try to hold on to what remained of dwindling empire. This, in turn, resulted in the catastrophic US policy to back colonial overlords to return as slave masters to their previous colonies. This in turn gave the communist the golden opportunity to claim the position of national liberators for the next 40+ years.

[@rainkloud]

He wasn't the right guy before, during or after the war. Before the war he championed dramatic reductions to the military budget which contributed to the inadequate state of readiness of the armed forces at the outset of war. At the close of the war he abandoned central and eastern Europe with a particularly shameful betrayal of the Cossacks. Despite realizing the threat that Stalin posed he maintained the backbone of a jellyfish when it came to appeasing him. This is to say nothing of his repugnant racism. He was extraordinarily overrated and a prime example of style over substance.

[@T_Mo271]

I recently visited the Churchill War Rooms museum in London. Fascinating place, and it includes a comprehensive history of Mr. Churchill himself. When UK WW II operations no longer required a secure bunker facility, the Brits simply locked the doors to the underground ops room, and didn't open it again for a few decades. It's a remarkable place to visit.

[@parsifal6094]

We all know what we want after the WWII series come to end: The 100 years war - week by week!

[@eyeyayayay]

That's a bit much. Start with something less ambitious, like the 30 Years War.

[@garcalej]

@@eyeyayayayBest podcast for that…Hell on Earth with Matt Christman and Chris Wade. Very insightful and witty.

[@Yamato-tp2kf]

I got better, the Napoleonic wars week by week

[@benroberts2222]

There would be so many weeks with nothing happening. "It's winter, and to make matters worse England is out of money... still. Tune in next week!" Maybe one year per week?

[@th3freakie]

Clement Attlee is not just some footnote at the end of the war either. He was called "the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th century". Despite Britain's unavoidable economic problems at the end of such a long war, he still managed to establish the National Health Service and the foundations of the Welfare State, plus develop an independent British Atomic Weapon. His overall economic policies would not be changed by Labour or Conservative governments until Margaret Thatcher some ~30 years later.

[@nigelbarker8726]

Even Margaret Thatcher wrote of him: “Of Clement Attlee, however, I was an admirer. He was a serious man and a patriot. Quite contrary to the general tendency of politicians in the 1990s, he was all substance and no show. His was a genuinely radical and reforming government.”

[@ihl0700677525]

It was IMO misguided and wrong set of policies. Britain should instead follow US, West Germany, and Japan policies, instead of continuing its own wartime (highly collectivist) economic policies.

[@markpower5756]

Attlee and Bevin were also the main instigators in the creation of NATO.

[@devvy_01]

Truman: So we have this bomb Stalin: yes thats cute Churchill: I've been voted out of office Stalin: *Spits outs vodka*

[@mikespangler98]

I'll make a small edit; Truman: So we have this bomb Stalin: yes thats cute Churchill: I've been voted out of office Stalin: How many will you need to kill to stay in office? Churchill: No one, I'm just going to leave peacefully. Stalin: Spits outs vodka

[@ati847]

And then Stalin said: Wait, you guys have elections?

[@devvy_01]

@@ati847 Soviet Union had election, and a even if it was a one party state a person did need at least 50% of the vote

[@SpartacusColo]

@@devvy_01 Yes, that's cute.

[@gwtpictgwtpict4214]

@@devvy_01 Yes dear, but that one party state? They were the ones doing the counting...

[@philipb2134]

Following that Churchill lost his parliamentary seat, his wife sought to console him as "a blessing in disguise". Ahem... "It's a rather convincing disguise."

[@SmilingIbis]

And so the sad and senseless denouement of the war drags on another week. Churchill picked an apt title for his book "Triumph and Tragedy."

[@sheevpalpatine2901]

Thanks Timeghost. Can’t believe this great series is almost over!!!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for the comment! We have plenty more we want to cover after the war right here on the WW2 channel, so stay tuned.

[@MsZeeZed]

Churchill became Prime Minister some six months before the Conservative Party was supposed to hold another UK election in 1940. Churchill instead had support from parliament that by adding members of the Labour and Liberal Parties into more senior positions he could change Chamberlain’s Government of National Unity (for the Great Depression) into an official all-party coalition. This was often called the National Government, but held together by a more formal cross-party power sharing agreement. After Germany’s surrender Labour officially withdrew from this power sharing and triggered the election, hoping to beat Churchill before Japan’s surrender. Attlee, the new Prime Minister, had served as Churchill’s deputy for the last 3 years and was the only other consistent member of Churchill’s war cabinet from 1940, so although it may seem like an odd time to change leaders, it had no real impact on how the war continued to be prosecuted. Don’t be seduced into the idea Churchill’s fall scuppered *Operation Unthinkable* (invasion of the Soviet European occupied territory) as the name suggests none of the British (or American) Chiefs wanted this extension to the war to happen, particularly as in most military circles the Soviet Union was still considered vital to the defeat of Japan.

[@alanmichael5619]

You'd have thought the final point was obvious from the name of the operation.

[@wallacethomas9844]

The Potsdam Declaration elided the issue of the Emperor by calling on “the Armed Forces of Japan” to surrender unconditionally leaving the status of the Emperor open.

[@tommynukes6352]

Yeah, but that wasn’t good enough for the Japanese. They wanted assurances (which eventually came a few weeks later) since occupational forces would essentially have carte blanche to do whatever they wanted to Japan like in Germany.

[@davidwright7193]

British democracy is brutal. Polls close at 10pm and if you lose by 10am the next morning you are out. None of this hanging around for 3 months to enact the results, you are just gone.

[@cpj93070]

Yep that's how it has always gone, blink and you will miss it is how the British government works.

[@Southsideindy]

The elections were July 5th though.

[@davidwright7193]

@@Southsideindy The 1945 elections were odd in that while in person voting in some constituencies occurred on July 5th in person voting went on for a week or so. However to allow soldiers serving in India, Australia, and Southeast Asia to vote postal votes could be returned until the 26th which was when polls closed. That is another difference between the UK and the US all absentee ballots have to be returned before close of polls. Finally no votes are counted before polls close everywhere, another difference between the UK and the US. No results are announced before counting is completed in a district, including any recounts, and agreed by the candidates agents. Recounts are common with any result within 1% being recounted at least once as will any count with a candidate between 4 and 5% of the vote as 5% is the threshold for a security deposit being returned. Also in 45 some constituencies still return 2 candidates while 3 or 4 constituencies (Oxford and Cambridge Universities, Scottish universities, and possibly JMB) were purely postal, and yes many graduates got 2 votes.

[@jonahtwhale1779]

The gap between the November election and January Electoral college meeting in US is to allow delegates from distant states to travel to Washington. The trip took weeks in the 1700 & 1800s.

[@davidwright7193]

@@jonahtwhale1779 Britain has been holding elections since the 1300’s. From Carlisle to London could easily take a week in 1590. Still the results are implemented immediately and the old house is removed before the election. The oddity of a lame duck session never happens. Britain is so fast only due to the parliamentary system with no term durations for executive posts and an obsolete electoral system (200 seat majority, and a 300 seat plurality, on 35% of the vote this month) which usually gives simple majorities with no need for the coalition forming period seen in most modern political systems. To be honest the only system more in need of overhaul than the UK’s is the US.

[@dragosstanciu9866]

The Potsdam Conference completely ignored the restoration of the independence of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

[@getreadyforthecircus]

All of these conferences were the British and US allowing the Soviets to do whatever the fuck they wanted with Eastern Europe, causing the deaths of millions of innocent people who were forced to be proper Soviet citizens and be disposable for the Party.

[@JLAvey]

Yes, it did. With the Soviets firmly in control, what exactly was anyone going to do about it short of starting another war? I remember reading some about the resistance there and how it kept on going past Stalin's death. Sadly, all three states will see two generations grow up under Soviet rule, which means nothing seeing how each of them succeeded from the USSR the first chance they got.

[@graceneilitz7661]

Of course it did. If you think logically about it, why would the conference have talked about the independence of any country? It talked about Poland, but that’s mostly because of how the war (at least in Europe) started.

[@AlexanderBlocker]

Opportunity for another week by week series about 44 years in the future, perhaps

[@Conn30Mtenor]

IIRC The Japanese expected to lose Manchuria, keep Korea and parts of China, with no occupation. Hopelessly optimistic.

[@p.strobus7569]

Hopelessly delusional. They started thinking about talking about the possibility of peace after the fall of Saipan, one year and 1.5 million Japanese dead later and they are still thinking about it.

[@PumaTwoU]

It could be argued here that failure to mention the Emperor in the Potsdam resolution only helped increase the delay of getting a surrender. Intentional or not, that would make use of the Atomic bomb an even greater shock overall to the Japanese. Given known peace feelers received by the Soviet Union, it would be a clever way for the Allies to learn just how far the Japanese were willing to go to end the war by having the Japanese bring up the status of the Emperor after the war would be over, so that could be negotiated.

[@jliller]

The whole point of UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER is that there are no conditions. "We promise to let the Emperor live and remain head of state in any way" is a condition. You are throwing yourself on our mercy.

[@Eric-rb7rg]

You might want to look into this question a little deeper. It is far more complicated than you present. See for example Richard Frank Downfall.

[@Dustz92]

There is an anime movie that covers this week's bombings in Kure, "In this corner of the world"

[@Yamato-tp2kf]

A very underrated anime movie indeed

[@theotherohlourdespadua1131]

Basically "Grave of the Fireflies" with a happy ending...

[@ramal5708]

The fact that Stalin is the only leader from the major allied powers that remains in Potsdam, FDR died in April, Churchill was voted out of office. Truman and Atlee took over their places respectively.

[@janesda]

Clearly you've not being paying attention. The war with Germany is over and the USSR is not at war with Japan, so at the best, Stalin was on a break at Potsdam. Whereas from FDR's "Four Policemen", Chiang Kai-shek was and is still in power in China on 26 July 1945.

[@diedertspijkerboer]

I can answer the question of whether emperor Hirohito was complicit in war crimes as clearly yes.But of course, he eventually got with them. An uncle of mine was put in a Japanese concentration camp all by himself at the age of 10.He suffered incredible hunger and neglect, so I'm not particularly sympathetic to Japan's situation at this time of the war. All I can say is that many members of the Japanese government were equally willing to commit war crimes against its opponents as they were willing to commit genocide on their own people by not surrendering (among other things). I think this regime's brutality is much closer to that of the Nazis than history typically reports. Moreover, it's also horrible in our time that most Japanese are ignorant of these brutalities because it is literally forbidden to teach these aspects of WW2 history in Japanese schools. Pearl Harbour as an event and the fact that Japan lost are typically the only things that the average Japanese citizen knows. In comparison: literally every German adult knows about the Holocaust in detail thanks to history lessons they had in school.

[@PcCAvioN]

Japan midwar: *tosses babies in the air to shoot at* Japan postwar: how could those evil Americans be so mean to our noble people? 😢😢😢

[@silgen]

The Japanese are moral cowards who have still not faced up to the evil they did in the 30's and 40's.

[@Mr.Canadian_1918]

Nice video I’ve been watching ever since the Great War series 😊

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for being with us for so long! Hope you are catching Indy over at the Korean War channel too: www.youtube.com/@TheKoreanWarbyIndyNeidell

[@Mr.Canadian_1918]

@@WorldWarTwo don’t worry I’ve already started watching I love the series so far. Keep up the good work Indy

[@hourlardnsaver362]

Another sidenote: On the night of July 22nd, men from the American submarine USS Barb land on the southern end of Sakhalin Island, also known as Karafuto. Using an improvised explosive rigged from one of the submarine’s 50-pound scuttling charges, they destroy a stretch of railroad track running along the island along with a passing train. The memoirs of Barb’s skipper, Lieutenant Commander Eugene Fluckey, describe “[…] wreckage flying up some 200 feet, racing ahead of a mushroom of smoke.” The operation is hailed as one of the few Allied landings to take place on the Japanese home islands, assuming Karafuto is counted among those islands, and is the highlight of Barb’s twelfth war patrol, a patrol which also saw her bombarding Japanese infrastructure on Hokkaido and Karafuto with a rocket launcher originally intended for anti-kamikaze duties.

[@iamnolegend2519]

Well done TG, as always.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching!

[@mattx229]

You should plug the korean war show on the descriptipn indy!

[@marcmckenzie5110]

Wow I love everything you’ve done here: made history feel more immediate in a creative way. Script, accuracy, staging, lighting, editing, and performance are all outstanding. Hats off!

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

Excellent work Indy & team!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching!

[@siljeff2708]

Once the main events of the war conclude, I would love to see you have a special on those Japanese Soldiers who never got the memo and fought well into the 1970’s, like Shoichi Yokoi, Hiroo Onoda, and Teruo Nakamura

[@robtoe10]

I definitely understand the drive for unconditional surrender, though I can't help but wonder if they could have shaved time off the War and saved many more lives if they'd phrased to tacitly say the Emperor would still be monarch with an unconditional surrender (as what the Allies want to do, instead of it being seen as a conditional surrender point from the Japanese; it would be a tad) since that's what happened anyway after the pure unconditional surrender IRL

[@moonlapsevertigo2432]

I definitely agree, along with including the soviets into the Potsdam declaration could have helped avoid dropping the bombs or invading. KZbinr Shaun’s video about the bomb that I find very convincing argues as much

[@jamess7576]

That's how it ended up IRL, but that was not a given at this time. There was just enough plausible deniability and his actions to end the war in August 1945 to save the Emperor, but all that was unknown in July 1945.

[@danielstickney2400]

Construct a scenario where that could have happened without wishful thinking and 20/20 hindsight.

[@PxThucydides]

Unconditional surrender was for the Nazis. Even the men involved on the US side said later it was a mistake to apply it to Japan.

[@alphamikeomega5728]

As I recall, even the "unconditional surrender" which was negotiated had a secret condition that the Emperor would remain in post and would not be prosecuted. Also, I'd like to join in in recommending Shaun's video on the bombing and the surrender.

[@Arashmickey]

I fully expect "Prompt and Utter Destruction" to be a song title or name of a garage band.

[@theoldar]

No defeated nations ever got better treatment than Japan and Germany.

[@federicovalsecchi8531]

Italy?

[@NotFlappy12]

Japan, maybe. But Germany definitely didn't get off scot free

[@MM22966]

@@federicovalsecchi8531 Italy got mulched from one end to the other, so not so much.

[@feindkontakt5956]

Austria? Austrians just said "we didnt want this", so they got an 10 year occupation and were a fully sovereign Country in 1955 like nothing happened, while all the eastern Block around them was occupied until 1990 and had to enjoy the fruits of the soviet tree.

[@gordybing1727]

Did you ever read/see the book/movie "The Mouse that Roared?"

[@mikehjt]

It's worth noting the Americans were reading the Japanese diplomatic traffic with various ambassadors, notably to the USSR. In none of those messages was there anything like 'If we could just keep te Emperor, we could give the rest.' Nothing at all. Guff about keeping Korea and Manchukuo, - that's what they hoped for from Soviet mediation. But nothing to indicate the Emperor was the sole stumbling block to a surrender.

[@tommyreef]

It's been a pleasure watching this series for the past six years. I know many are now moving on to the Korean War but I never watched the WWI series week by week. I'll start doing so now, though ten years later.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for the comment Tommy, we hope you enjoy Indy's coverage of Korea!

[@simonburi3293]

Thanks for another great episode, Indy & team!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thank you!

[@sithtrooper1948]

Press: So are y’all gonna dispose the Japanese Emperor? The Allies: Well yes but actually no but actually yes but really no

[@gwtpictgwtpict4214]

Depose, not dispose.

[@davidwright7193]

Depose, dispose, same difference when it comes to royalty if you want to do the job properly. The British, the French, and the Russians could tell you that.

[@gwtpictgwtpict4214]

@@davidwright7193 Err, no. If you're going to use 'dispose', to be grammatically correct you should have said 'dispose of'.

[@NigelDeForrest-Pearce-cv6ek]

Excellent and Outstanding Episode!!!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching!

[@damascus21]

I can't believe that we're only a few weeks away from the cessation of hostilities

[@tonydarcy1606]

When Churchill came to support the Tory candidate in North Paddington during the 1945 election, he was loudly booed wherever he went. The Brits had had enough of the war and its destruction.

[@sarah_757]

Another great episode! Thanks!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Glad you enjoyed, thanks for watching!

[@pauldietz1325]

The last US-Japanese naval action of the war actually occurred several days after the "end", and involved sailing ships (!) and a boarding action (!!). I hope it's covered.

[@henrybostick5167]

The first time I remember hearing about Churchill being ousted at that point in the war I was puzzled,and somewhat still am. But I bet i wasn't nearly as shocked as he was....

[@CARL_093]

thanks indy and crew

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching.

[@gordybing1727]

Suggested reading, "84, Charing Cross Road" by Helene Hanff and "Back Home" by Bill Mauldin.

[@JLowe2013]

Hello, Indy and team! You've done so much for me over the years with truly the best historical content on the internet. I just wanted to give something back. This poem is mainly inspired by the Western Front of the First World War, but the themes and feelings I was trying to capture persist in all times and places where men face the horrors and complexities of modern war. I do hope you enjoy it: Men of Mud Far from home, took up the sword Did boys of summer, newly grown For King, for Country, and the Lord Into the pit their flesh was thrown Men of mud, they soon became Steeled themselves with deepest breath Before the shells fell with the rain Free days of youth died the first death Days of war, never-ending Often cold and never dry Comrades home were always sending Letters to make mothers cry Fear for life gave each man pause Yet time again by dawn they stood Not for gain nor noble cause But for brother, as brothers should Hope, kindling for such sorrow And they plainly wondered why A world others could not know Lest seen and known by eye "How can men do this to men?" They meekly asked aloud They heard no answer now or then But came home beaten, broken, proud

[@PxThucydides]

I have been following.these videos online these past few years and I have been telling my friends not to spoil the ending for me- don't want to wreck the suspense. But by this time I guess it's pretty sure the Allies are going to win. Been a fun story!

[@kalburgy2114]

This just the Allies version. If you get the Axis version, they win.

[@deshaun9473]

Hey guys/ladies!! I've been quite busy for a few weeks, but I'm back (again) and all caught up. Love you and keep up the good work!!

[@BruceMusto]

Kure, Osaka, Yokosuka, and soon Nagasaki. Pretty interesting to be at this point in the war and hear you speak on places that I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to visit over the course of 20 years during the 80's and 90's. Really a beautiful country with a rich history and an interesting and intriguing people, it was remarkable when I was there, just a short 40 - 45 years after the war, how far they had come. A fitting testament to their discipline, industry, and for the most part, internal harmony as a society.

[@robertjarman3703]

Hirohito: Well, I could have a peaceful realm where I get to do my marine biology I love so much, or I could have war. You know what, I'll let my country have war even though I have the authority to say no. What could possibly go wrong?

[@alphamikeomega5728]

Tbf, he'd struggle to do marine biology after an execution for war crimes.

[@mikespangler98]

He had the ability to say no right up the point he was assassinated. It was an odd system, he was supposedly in charge, but gods were not to concern themselves with worldly affairs.

[@oneshotme]

I very much enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up

[@ELNIPLO]

Great work guys, as always. Congrats on the new korean war channel!!

[@WorldWarTwo]

Much appreciated!

[@shawnr771]

Thank you for the lesson.

[@WorldWarTwo]

And thanks for watching!

[@ewok40k]

IJN is effectively finished now, last capital ships sunk in bases with sole exception of Nagato. Revenge for Pearl Harbor is complete.

[@rrice1705]

To paraphrase Winston Churchill from "The Crown", an empty transport aircraft flew to Potsdam, and Clement Attlee got out.

[@byrnemeister2008]

The Attlee government was however, one of the most effective we have ever had.

[@dpink4832]

I was really hoping that the War against humanity series would pick up and fill in as the actual fighting in Europe died down and ended

[@Southsideindy]

That series has not ended.

[@naveenraj2008eee]

Hi Indy Another interesting week. This war is going to end soon. Thanks for the video.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Indeed it will, but we aren't going anywhere. Check out our annivesrary special for more details on our next series right here on the WW2 channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmamY3akd7mgetk - Jake

[@jakubcesarzdakos5442]

So... if the Allies allowed for more diplomacy and maybe some secret peace talks, both sides would have been able to reach an agreement? For me it seems that the Postdam Declaration just needed to be specified in a few places, maybe perhaps by giving some basis on which it will be judged who was a war criminal and by having a plan for establishing a democratic Japan. Lack of talks let to an atomic bomb

[@jakubcesarzdakos5442]

It shows why it is always important to have diplomatic channels open

[@varana]

That assumes that there was someone in Japan to talk to. Yes, the government had internal discussions, but that doesn't mean that the Japanese would've been open to actually negotiate with the Allies, especially considering that major parties in the government were still in favour of continuing the war, and in light of how the actual surrender later on was received among parts of the army (i.e. not well, to say it mildly). And while we know quite a bit about the internal workings of the Japanese government, that wasn't as clear to the Allies back then, so establishing criteria for determining guilt or responsibility would've been quite impossible. For the lack of talks, the Allies were not the main culprit.

[@pax6833]

No. The Japanese wanted terms the Allies were never going to give them.

[@gordybing1727]

One of the Dulles brothers was in Switzerland thru-out the war, where there would have been Japanese diplomats, so there would have been communication all the way through.

[@itinerantpatriot1196]

For the life of him, Stalin couldn't figure out how Churchill could have lost. In his way of thinking, Churchill was in charge, and the person in charge gets to count the votes. As he said in the past, the number of ballots cast doesn't matter, what matters is who does the counting. As for Truman, he was pissed that Stalin and Churchill dragged their feet and threatened to leave if they didn't get at least one thing resolved a day. He came away from the conference believing Stalin was, as he said, "smart as hell" but he also believed he could deal with him. He didn't believe that as long as Roosevelt though. The question is, could the allies have made off-the-record reassurances that the Emperor would get to stay on the throne and still get away with calling it unconditional surrender? In the end, they said the demands of the Potsdam Declaration had been met and most people didn't raise a fuss about the Emperor. What kind of world would it be if they had managed to get what they ended up getting anyway before dropping the bomb or letting the Soviets grab up their spoils? The great what-if of WWII.

[@Chalupafatty]

Totally agree. All fault for the bomb dropping still falls on the shoulders of the Japanese imperial government. Most selfish governing body in history

[@mipa8581]

I'm hoping that as this series winds down to a close that you guys just don't hang it up in September (I know spoilers)... I think the Nuremburg Trials have HUGE WAH potential.

[@WorldWarTwo]

Sparty will be covering the Nuremburg trials at a later date. We also have a new series planned for after the war. Check out our 10-year anniversary special for more details: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmamY3akd7mgetk

[@alexamerling79]

Japan would be wise to heed the demand for surrender.

[@Raskolnikov70]

Would have been wiser to not awaken a sleeping dragon in the first place.

[@jtgd]

Japan: No! Agree to OUR terms!

[@spikespa5208]

So often wisdom takes a backseat to pride and saving face.

That Churchill was voted out before the end of the war is indeed strange. But I think it speaks to an informed electorate that looked more at the track record of peopel then it is perhalps the case today

[@kenoliver8913]

Yep, and Churchill's track record was pretty bloody poor seen over the long run. He was very clearly a man of the past.

[@lukeskywalker3329]

Great documentaries 👏 👌 . All of them . Thank you .

[@korbell1089]

Japanese Government: "Don't pick up those leaflets!" farmer: "And waste all this great toilet paper the nice Americans dropped to us?" 🙂😉

[@SturmiRallivaihde]

It would be a good idea to print your propaganda on proper toilet paper, at least if the targeted people do their toilet business alone.

[@AmvC]

The best Video on KZbin to day.

[@user-et4yz4ob3f]

Someone moved the red chair. Now we can see the Great Lakes again. In the wrong place.

[@ericvargas6770]

I can’t wait for them to cover the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria, not a heavily discussed part of WW2 due to the War shortly ending right after.

[@jamesmayes4351]

Will you do a special about Operation Unthinkable.

[@a84c1]

The US to Japan: You got a BIG surprise coming to you.

[@jesoma0708]

Steiner: UNO REVERSE CARD

[@rogercoulombe3613]

Here comes the sun.

[@spikespa5208]

@a84c1 Two, actually.

[@chequereturned]

Yes, though Japan wasn’t oblivious to the notion of a nuclear bomb. They had their own program under Nishina, a major nuclear physicist. When the bombings happened another even more important nuclear physicist, Yukawa, was sent to investigate and determined what had happened. In fact, *the* fundamental model of nuclear physics and the strong force at the time (the notion of meson exchange in the ‘residual’ strong force, as well as the Yukawa potential) was developed by him, and wouldn’t be fundamentally overhauled until QCD came along in the 1960s onwards.

[@jeffersonwright6249]

NB: navy commander mentioned minute 15 is non other than the father of Senator and former Navy Aviator John McCain Jr

[@wwoods66]

Grandfather. His son is a sub commander in WW2, and an admiral in the Vietnam War. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain_(disambiguation)

[@philipb2134]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="542">9:02</a> andsuch islands... WWII is technically still in effect: the Soviet Union -later Russia, only signed an armistice. There is no prace treaty, and none shall be signed until Russia returns to Japan: Kunashiri, Shikotan, Etorofu, and the Habomai group.

[@jonahtwhale1779]

Similar thing with WWI. There was an Armistice in 1918 and the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. However, the US Senate refused to ratify that Treaty ( because it meant joining the league of Nations). So US was still at war with German Empire until 1972. Then some diplomatic fudge was implemented.

[@graceneilitz7661]

Nah, Japan should accept that it lost those islands in the treaty of San Francisco. Though, I do wish the delegates were more specific about the islands, as the treaty could be interpreted either way.

[@philipb2134]

@@graceneilitz7661 speaking of which... would you care to be more specific? Japan had surrendered her claims to recent conquests in the southern region of the Sea of Okhotsk (Southern Sakhalin territory, Kuril islands,) but had not ceded her home Islands.

[@graceneilitz7661]

@@philipb2134 I mean that Japan should give up claim to the islands north of Hokkaido. Japan claims the four southernmost of the Kuril Islands as part of their home islands, because Japan controlled them before the Russo-Japanese war (to over simply things). But, when a country starts a war and loses as badly as Japan did in WW2 they should expect to lose a lot of land. I think that the wording of the treaty of San Francisco has Japan renounce its claims to all of the geographical Kuril Islands, even if they aren’t explicitly going to the USSR.

[@philipb2134]

@@graceneilitz7661 The Soviet Union specifically targeted strategic territories to incorporate into its territorial mass. In this case, SU grabbed the strategic La Perouse Straits. On the other side of the Northern Hemisphere, the largest country in living memory acquired strategic land assets which never, EVER, were traditional Russian lands of home. Viz, Koeningsberg/Kaliningrad.

[@herpderptheshep]

Found this channel from the Korea one I've been blitzing through year after year of this bitter conflict, and I've finally caught up! With Japan on the ropes like this, surely the most horrific days of the war is behind us, right?

[@WorldWarTwo]

Thanks for watching! -TimeGhost Ambassador

[@jimgraham6722]

Thankyou, extraordinary program

[@WorldWarTwo]

And thank you for watching!

[@SpaceMonkeyBoi]

What is the plan after the coverage of WW2 is done? Will you guys do different wars on different channels, or will they be grouped into a "Cold War" channel?

[@WorldWarTwo]

We're already over a month into the Korean War and have mentioned it a few times. ;) youtube.com/@thekoreanwarbyindyneidell -TimeGhost Ambassador

[@JagerLange]

Point #5 are words to live by and use in future conflicts be they personal or work-based.

[@y-u-video4596]

had a ruff week so I am not 100% listening. but i heard "Suzuki" several times and while beeing not against Suzuki I think Kawasaki Ninja ZX-7 is the best.

[@johnlinek587]

Barón Suzuki was not related to the Suzuki manufacturers who were originally silk worm farmers, iirc.

[@jesseparrish1993]

This is why the conflicts of the post war era dragged on for decades: lack of Potsdam.

[@alansewell7810]

It was preposterous for the Japanese to believe the Soviets desired to mediate a peace treaty between them and the USA. If anything, the Soviets wanted the USA to bleed itself fighting the Japanese in order to diminish its post war threat to the Soviet sphere of influence. The Soviet wouldn't have minded invading Hokkaido, either and annexing it as Soviet satellite country, if the Japanese were drawn into fighting Americans invading the other end of their homeland.

[@jliller]

It would be interesting if Japan had delayed surrendering. Korea is a united communist country, but Japan is divided into a communist Hokkaido and a non-communist Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu.

[@garcalej]

So many what ifs. What if the US has simply allowed the Soviet invasion of Manchuria to proceed a month or so longer, enough time for the Japanese leadership to realize they were gonna lose China and much of their overseas empire anyway; and that it would be better accept peace now and lose that than lose it all. What if the US and USSR had not been so mistrustful of each-other that each feared a longer war would weaken them both in any future standoff. At this point each knew that the war would be over and that Japan would lose; the only bone of dispute was how soon and on what terms. The sad truth is the desire to end the war quickly and decisively was driven more by Cold War politics than by any consideration of lessening civilian and military casualties, as many apologists would later argue. As we later found out in Korea, Truman had few scruples about sending US troops back to Asia, to fight and die against a determined foe, for no more higher a purpose than to project Western strength against the Soviet bloc.

[@pax6833]

@@garcalej Japan would not have surrendered because at that point they had already written off china (hence why the kwangtung army was transferred from Manchuria to Kyushu).

[@user-cu6qq9bp2t]

I am looking forward to when you release a channel covering the Vietnam war amd one covering the 1990's Yugoslavian wars

[@MrXenon1994]

21 July 1945. Sergeant John Evans of the 7th Armoured Division participates in the 1945 British victory parade in Berlin today, along with the rest of the 7th Armoured. John and his mates parade down Charlottenburger Chaussee as the crowds look on, including Prime Minister Winston Churchill himself, who is particularly fond of the Desert Rats. Other witnesses of the event include Field Marshal Alan Brooke, as well as Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, a man John served under for a long time, and respects dearly.

[@Gbaby204]

There can't be many more episodes on WW2...???

[@joewilson5631]

309 weeks of war so far and 6 weeks of war in Korea today. Imagine living in this time to see these wars and Vietnam

[@zacharyhenderson2902]

After hearing the stats, I can see why John McCain was opposed to the bombardment

[@Wayne.J]

British didn't sink 2 Type D escort "carriers" or Kaiyo. They might have sunk 2 escort or coastal defense ships, or Kaibokans. They sank CD4. Kaiyo was damaged on 24th by US carrier planes and was beached to stop it from sinking at Beppu, near Oita which is the opposite side of Kure in the Inland Sea. It was interesting story to try and save it and continued on for a week. British sank Army carrier Shimane Maru on the opposite side of the bay (?) to Osaka.

[@watcherzero5256]

The British Sunk two Type D escort ships, Escort No.4 at Toba on the 28th July, Escort No. 30 at Yura also on the 28th of July. The Kaiyo was attacked by the British Pacific Fleet air arm on 24th July suffering several hits and also struck a mine while trying to evade. She was towed to Beppu Bay and scuttled in shallow water, on the 28th of July the US airforce performed a rocket attack on the ship causing her to list to port and killing 20 crew, the captain then decided to evacuate most of the crew and let her become a static AA battery. When your talking about the efforts to save her that continued for a week are you referring to the earlier attack she suffered on 19th March when she was attacked by US planes, moved to shallow waters near Etajima and repaired, resuming service on the 20th of April.

[@keithlaycock9059]

@@watcherzero5256 The Fleet Air Arm reported having attacked Kaiyō on July 24, and after the war, the US Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee (JANAC) credited the subsequent de facto loss of that ship to the British. This version of events has been generally accepted and reiterated by historians until quite recently. However, the JANAC reports are now known to be less reliable than was previously thought. The FAA "also" attacked and sank an escort carrier in Shido Bay (more than 150 miles from Beppu) on the same day that Kaiyō was attacked, but this sinking in Shido Bay was not recorded by JANAC. An aircraft from HMS Implacable photographed the escort carrier under attack in Shido Bay, and it was subsequently identified as Kaiyō. However, Kaiyō was more than 150 miles away at the time. Therefore, it's possible that the only carrier attacked by the FAA on July 24 was the Shimane Maru in Shido Bay, but that as she was misidentified as Kaiyō, which was apparently attacked by US carrier aircraft at around the same time (Japanese Navy records confirm attacks on both carriers on July 24), the two attacks were inadvertently conflated into a single British attack on Kaiyō in reports from the British Pacific Fleet and JANAC.

[@keithlaycock9059]

@@watcherzero5256 The Fleet Air Arm reported having attacked Kaiyo on July 24, and after the war, the US Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee (JANAC) credited the subsequent de facto loss of that ship to the British. This version of events has been generally accepted and reiterated by historians until quite recently. However, the JANAC reports are now known to be less reliable than was previously thought. The FAA "also" attacked and sank an escort carrier in Shido Bay (more than 150 miles from Beppu) on the same day that Kaiyo was attacked, but this sinking in Shido Bay was not recorded by JANAC. An aircraft from HMS Implacable photographed the escort carrier under attack in Shido Bay, and it was subsequently identified as Kaiyo. However, Kaiyo was more than 150 miles away at the time. Therefore, it's possible that the only carrier attacked by the FAA on July 24 was the Shimane Maru in Shido Bay, but that because she was misidentified as Kaiyo, which was apparently attacked by US carrier aircraft at around the same time (Japanese Navy records confirm attacks on both carriers on July 24), the two attacks were inadvertently conflated into a single British attack on Kaiyo in reports from the British Pacific Fleet and JANAC.

[@Wayne.J]

@@watcherzero5256 See Keith response above... Shimane Maru was sunk not Kaiyo by British. Kaiyo was training off Beppu/Oita at that time, in the US raiding sector, not Osaka. Kaiyo is hit by rockets from Essex planes, off Beppu then hides in the cove as you state. Next day, 25th, Kaiyo hits a mine while moving to hide again, and then is towed back to Beppu to be beached. Subsequent damage was sustained as you state. Shimane was an army vessel/carrier used to ferry planes to the south in the war. Shimane was sunk on the opposite side of the bay from Osaka, in the British sector of the raids. We all agree no Type D escort carrier existed, they probably meant to say the 2 kaibokans were sunk. They have struggled a lot with naval side of things throughout the series at least to us naval enthusiasts. But the average punter or land warfare enthusiasts probably wouldn't understand, only learning that a naval battle occurred and there was some losses which would satisfy them, rather getting into the nitty gritty of the battles itself.

[@yankeepapa304]

Labour got good at rationing...so good that WWII food rationing in UK ended in 1954... In Germany in 1950... ... ... YP

[@extrahistory8956]

Then again, the US was pretty much funneling a ton of money to post-war Europe.

[@kenoliver8913]

One reason it lasted so long is because it was genuinely popular - it ensured no child went hungry, which had not at all been the case before the war under Conservative governments. One reason Labour was elected in 1945 was that their Ministers had mostly been put in charge of domestic matters in the wartime coalition government and had proved very competent administrators.

[@michaeldiaz4563]

The issue on the fate of Emperor Hirohito was the center of so much bickering amongst the Japanese Supreme Council's two opposing factions. The hardliners of the Japanese Military refuses to accepts the terms of the declaration and forced Prime Minister Suzuki into rejecting it although the way he transmitted the response is very confusing to the Americans. But this decision as well as the hardline stance of the militarists who wants to have their apocalyptic showdown with the Americans will have tragic consequences as seen on August 6 and 9.

[@nairbvel]

A little aside on the fighting going on around Guilin in China... We were there in 2010, and the landscape is mile upon mile of karst hills, best described as a cross between a tight sine wave and a young child's drawing of a big mountain range -- incredible up-and-down limestone absolutely riddled with natural caves. We took a tour of the Reed Flute Cave a short drive outside Guilin, and there was an extensive sound-and-light show about how much of the town hid there from the Japanese. I also heard (several times) that as late as 2012, the area still had many caves that surveyors had not yet located because the local populace wanted to keep them secret just in case they needed to hide from the Japanese again. The fighting in this area must have been horrific for the individual soldiers, with literally every square meter of ground potentially hiding a cavern large enough to hide an entire village... or an entire heavily armed squad of enemy soldiers.

[@stoogemoedude]

Fun fact: stalin was actually more surprised by Churchill being defeated than by Trueman's announcement of the bomb

[@snazzle9764]

All this important stuff happening - and all I'm craving for is the "End of the Wiemar Republic" series. I really hope the Korea project hasn't pushed that one back too far

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks TG

[@WorldWarTwo]

You are welcome LW. -TimeGhost Ambassador

[@pnutz_2]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1170">19:30</a> Once again, something on a TimeGhost production echoes current events. It's like poetry, it rhymes...

[@kenoliver8913]

As Marx said "history does not repeat itself - but it rhymes".

[@mikeliht2897]

Holy crap, i’ve caught up! Cheers

[@tonycook953]

The elephant in the room regarding the new Polish border [aka Stalin's de facto Polish occupation zone of Germany] is the 'allied forces' genocide of German civilians in the East.

[@somerandomboibackup6086]

I think the war was not going to well for Japan