WotC is changing Drow Lore

Wizard's of the Coast seems to be updating Drow Lore, or injecting new lore into the Forgotten Realms. Let's talk about it.
Legend of Drizzt (.com) - dnd.wizards.co...
Dragon Plus Article - dnd.dragonmag....
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[@crankysmurf]

Long before Drizzt was born, Ed Greenwood created Eilistraee, the daughter of Corellon Larethian and of Araushnee (aka Lolth) to be the goddess of good dark elves. He wanted her to balance out her mother's corrupted hold over the drow. I personally have no issue with good-align drow. I just hate the idea of the sweeping change that ALL drow suddenly are not under the evil influence of Lolth. It takes away the Eilistraee's mission to redeem the drow.

[@TheSouthernPirate]

Read the Lisa Smedman "Lady Penitent" books. They focus on Elistraee and the other Drow deities.

[@Born_Yashish]

That is what made them so appealing: they are, by and large, evil, but not unredeamable. This made overcoming their nature an applaudeable thing and an inspiring feat. Giving them human-like social nature just robs them off their identity, uniqueness and the point of existing as fantastical beings when humans exist as well.

[@Mike_W78]

@@Born_Yashish in the drizzt books their are several none CE drow. His sister was one. She was most likely NE and his dad who was CN I believe. Jarlaxle and most of his band are not NE or even LE not CE.

[@Born_Yashish]

@@Mike_W78 Sure. But even they that have diverted off the common CE, have stayed in its general sphere with, as you said, NE and CN.

[@slyfer60]

That's the issue she is completely defined by her plight. Without the daunting task what is she. To a lot of people she's the token good Drow goddess that no other Drow know about. And that's the way they like like it over there away from the "Real" Drow who are always Chaotic Evil like it says in the old players hand book. Because isn't that the whole point of Eilistraee? To always never make any head way because she's an idiot try to tell the always Chaotic Evil elves to be nicer. If you actually make her successful then a bunch of people will just complain what's the point of the Dark Elves then. As to the actual reason for her lack of content here is the fact that R.A.Salvatore doesn't like her. And this is going to be a Drizzt book so....

[@hollanbrabet3707]

I still don't understand why they don't just focus on fleshing out Eilistraee drow lore etc. good drow already exist, evil drow are fine. There is no need to change everything when its already there and justified for being there.

[@youcantbeatk7006]

Comic fans have been saying that for over a decade.

[@hollanbrabet3707]

@@youcantbeatk7006 I was a big comic book fan for most of my life =( I know.

[@MaleusMaleficarum]

This is an easy question... BobAS... hates Eilistraee.. he is quite open about that.. they even killed her off in 4e...

[@argisus1279]

@@MaleusMaleficarum why? I found Eilistraee one of the coolest parts of drow and elf lore, like she's one of the only things that I like drows for.

[@KingSteve13]

@@MaleusMaleficarum Sources?

[@UnsounderGnome]

I think it would have been way better to just continue to progress the whole Eilistraee thing where she is helping the drow reject the evil influence of Lolth. Make a change to the drow organically within the ongoing story of the forgotten realms. Instead they just retcon in some good drow in other areas, fine I guess, but kind of boring.

[@powerist209]

Well, thank Drizzt for that. WoTC has been somewhat have more focus on him since 3rd Edition and 4th too. I mean even my AL group never heard of Eilistraee before when I made a Half Drow Bard whose mom was a priestess for one. Also maybe nudism too.

[@devonmarcus101]

Yes! Exactly!

[@AllThingsFascinate]

@Al Martin what a fantastic point and example

[@catoblepasomega]

Seems like they are going a fair bit further than just retconning in some new cities. Reading some of the wording in that site, there are some *major* implications there based on what they are saying. Like Menzoberranzan is now the founding city of the Drow. Full stop. Lolth's entire corruptive influence only extended to this one band of cultists she persuaded to isolate themselves underground and found Menzoberranzan. And notably, they also seem to have removed most if not all of the other drow cities as well, because Menzo is treated as the only other city in relation to these other two new cities-the Lorendrow being safe in the south thanks to their distance from Menzo, when there should be several large and influential Lolth-worshipping drow cities in the South that should be far more threatening to them. It also seemingly does away with the Crown Wars and the Descent as we know it, since the Drow were apparently never forced underground, the ones who did *chose* to now. Erasing preexisting surface drow cultures along with those cities leaves Eilistraeen's and Vhaerunites very little room to operate in the manner they did in 3rd and 2nd edition. If Lolth is now being retconned into a cult leader, Eilistraee and Vhaeruan (to say nothing of Kiaransalee or Selvetarm) are going to be basically irrelevant. Worthless sack of retcons if you ask me. The Drow as we knew them are even more flanderized as a result of this, we just get these shiny new subraces of good drow now to distract us from WoTC sweeping under the rug what we just lost.

[@Largo01]

I agree. A real shame though as I thought Eilistraee was pretty cool, particularly from some of the novels.

[@KeacePeeper]

So theyr splitting Drow into High-Darkelves Wood-Darkelves and Dark-Darkelves? Strange.

[@jennaherman3859]

more like frost dark elves lol

[@DMTaino]

Sounds like it

[@gabrielrussell5531]

My problem is that Elves became Drow by following Lolth, and these new "Drow" never followed Lolth at all.

[@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit]

Precisely, continuity being burned at the stake for the sake of policor. The drow are drow BECAUSE of Lolth. No Lolth, no Drow. The ones that never followed her are literally just the other elves.

[@marks2807]

Which makes Eilistraee kind of pointless in the lore if Drow chose on their own not to follow Lolth.

[@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit]

@@marks2807 classic WotC move. Retconning established and rational lore so that they can both “appear woke” and remove consequence from a player’s choice to play a Drow simply because they “look cool”. Dude, Adventure League is going to DIE following all of these new “official” rules and content. Nobody is gonna wanna be forced run this joke-of-a-setting

[@tommysanders7414]

Perhaps they'll write it up as if these other drow did happen to follow the lady below ground but shortly afterwards mad the choice to abandon the spider after realizing that it was a circle of treacherous actions. After all dritz isn't a one-off his father before him and others felt the same

[@Whydidthischange]

@@marks2807 right her whole ark is redeeming dark elves. Like if its a small populace shes been tending im down but not whole citys.

[@SilverKing2379]

this new lore kind of downgrades the sacrifice Eilistraee made to be the good drow goddess

[@powerist209]

To be fair, she is kinda sidelined. Remember when Drizzt visit Waterdeep? They had a temple there, which they might have pop in to get a ship ready (Eilistraee worshippers make friends with everyone even non-Drow Bards too) had they known the community. Because Drizzt gets the spotlight as "good drow against his evil kin" even to the point of becoming annoying archetype parodied alot.

[@charlesstillman1225]

Agree.

[@alphaamino]

You say "downgraded," I say "winning"!

[@PaulGuy]

She still has an important place leading the drow who ARE evil away from it.

[@austinsecrest8887]

The south drow probably never heard of her

[@lauraw2526]

Meh. I was as big a Drizzt fan as anyone, but Elistraee is a more interesting concept than just "random good drow pockets no one's ever heard of before." Sounds boring, and I'll probably just ignore them.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Yup

[@edwardtddo7890]

It's like an unknown elemental particle that doesn't interact with anything in our world as we know it. We don't know it's there, so we can't look for it. It doesn't interact, so it is in the same state as if it wouldn't exist in the first place.

[@override367]

They don't even need Elistraee, the last book ended with an irreconcilable schism between the secular and ultra-religious factions in the city. The few books before that revealed that the non-noble drow are a good deal less evil than the likes of Matron Malice. But hey nobody who writes the books at WOTC knows or gives a shit about the lore anymore so

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

Could be cool if they kept their ancient Illythiiri traditions. But yeah "random good drow" just so some players can cop out of the lore would be lame.

[@lauraw2526]

@@override367 Yeah, within the current lore there's plenty of good reasons for a drow to opt out of Lloth-worship. Maybe they're still evil, but not as-evil, maybe neutral or maybe they want to be good. This change just sounds lazy.

[@zoloaftermidnight]

You're telling me that these elves have existed since the first elves set foot on the material plane...but were hidden via strong illusion magic so no one could find them? Well then how in the nine hells did they not get discovered during the events of the spell plague??? Shouldn't that whole event have seriously f*cked with their magic??? Like...what???

[@override367]

I'll give you a few more: Why do they have sunlight sensitivity and coal-black skin? Wouldn't they just be dusk elves? Drow gained the eye color and eyesight changes, and peculiar sexual dimorphism from thousands of years in the underdark

[@janelantestaverde2018]

Well, the question is what happened to their magic during the spell plague. As to why nobody managed to find them during that time, they still lived in a rather secluded part of the world and probably weren't _only_ hidden by magic. And I can imagine that during the spell plague crisis people didn't just roam around unknown and undiscovered territory unless they were specifically looking for something.

[@nordicomsystems8841]

Here's the answer; the wokes can't create doodly-squat...all they know how to do is destroy what others before them have created. Then we get this...insanity that makes zero sense. But the fine folks at WotC will all pat themselves on the back for doing their part to deconstruct whiteness or whatever, and people will still play their crap games and pop culture will continue to suck until someone has the sack to create something cool and refuse to let the activists corrupt it.

[@ryedj707]

@@nordicomsystems8841 a little triggered there aren’t we? It doesn’t matter what WotC does with Drow lore, if they say it happened and justify it then it’s there officially. You can make your own explanation or just ignore it entirely. Personally I’d go with the whole eilistraee plot point where she’s managed to create new pockets of drow civilization. This lore really weird to me, especially since things which are wayyyy harder to find have been explored and at least given some detail in universe, but it doesn’t completely destroy the lore of the world. A new concept of something recently discovered is fine if handled well. And if not, I hope you have been and do retcon it at your game, because I sure as hell haven’t played or GMed a campaign where everything was according to WotC official lore.

[@nordicomsystems8841]

No I'm not triggered man, you're missing the point. If they're doing things for the right reasons that's fine with me, I've been through many a retcon and seen plenty of plot holes. But knowing the reason behind this all doesn't sit well with me. Personally I don't think Drow resemble Black folks nor do orks...but apparently the big-brains at WotC do. And that in itself is incredibly offensive and racist. I'm biracial and I've never once encountered an ork or Drow that made me scratch my head and think " You know, that kinda reminds me of myself". It's not cool at all man.

[@bernarrcoletta7419]

Nope. As others have said here, there is plenty of opportunity to expand the lore, by expanding the role of Eilistraee. You don’t need to make up hither to unknown groups of Drow. SMH

[@Luminous_Tater]

This really gives some AU type vibes honestly lol like they gave some good ideas and its interesting in concept but it's also just... not making sense with original lore.

[@GRRAB]

It's just the Azerothian Night Elf style that people have been homebrewing for decades. They've existed in pop-culture lore forever and there's decades of awesome artwork and content to show for it. So many players Google "dark elves" and see the night elf WoW style art and want their character to look like that, way more than wanting to look like Drizzt. New lore about hitherto unknown things gets added to D&D lore literally every pubication. Since the beginning, brother. Isn't that the point? New stuff for everybody, based off of things that kinda sorta already exist somewhere, in some other lore. Great Old Ones, for example. There's no illusion that's its not blatantly Lovecraftian. But before it was officially grafted into the lore people had been homebrewing it for years.

[@DarthStuticus]

This definitely IS a retcon. Original drow lore was that the "cursed" drow were the ones who followed lolth and were normal elves before that. Anyone who did not follow lolth, did not become a drow

[@Vyrewolf]

It really would have been much better to have something change, and perhaps Eilistraee's power grow. More power for the good aligned drow deity could have led to something interesting. Honestly, some sort of adventure focusing on drow rebelling or driving off Lolth's priestesses, aided or guided by Eilistraee, feels much more like a continuation of a story. Just retconning "there's always been cities of good drow" feels lazy, and causes problems.

[@AlanGChenery]

Especially when they have actively tried to crush the Vhaeraun worshiping tribes out of existence. I mean evil, but relatively egalitarian rogue drow societies where males, females and even surface elves are more or less equal? With some clans wanting to conquer the surface while others want to use it to bolster their strength before taking the war to the spider kissers? That was good law. Lots of potential. But nope, they just got amalgamated with the goody goody types and their naked dancing under the moon... And frankly at this point while Vhaeraun is back, from the new stuff I'm not sure if either of lolths children are going to have much power now.

[@chrisframe2227]

Definitely. There could have been an entire series of books and even a campaign or two centered around a drow rebellion by an “underground” splinter group breaking away to found their own society.

[@silverbane266]

I agree with this

[@warlorddk2070]

This is what happens when they let kids with 0 understandingg of good world building or respect for storytelling get to them.. This is the doing of the same morons that bitched an moaned about racist orcs or kobolds having negative stat... WOTC wont have any say on my D&D world going forward... If im buying the books its for inspiration not the shitty politically correct, self censorship we are witnessing these days. Bad writing to appease shitty people.

[@vederianl9723]

@@chrisframe2227 One of the book series actually does this. It makes a disctinction between Dark Elves and Drow. The Drow are all magically linked to a Demon Lord. The link gets severed and a bunch of Drow are now just dark elves. Also Eilistraee dies but Corellon Larethian takes her place and accepts dark elves into Arvandor.

[@Tremere765]

I dunno I always thought redemption for a Drow was something he had to earn through hardship blood and personal sacrafice, like Drizzt losing his father or Liriel Baenre loosing Fyodor. Now its just "Oh look its a good drow, yep plenty of those around":). Just go with the Eilistraee angle don't invent "new" drow that were just not mentioned before for thousands of years becouse... well everyone just kind of forgot about them:).

[@DaDunge]

Drizzt is from that type of Drow though so for them that is probably still true.

[@mardshima2070]

"Redemption? WHAT!? Do you mean we should make an evil character the main character? NO, that is just an immoral idea. We need a main character that 100% good! We don't want children following even 1% of evilness of the main character. A main character should be a PERFECT Warrior or Justice!" - Most of nowadays western big franchise writer probably

[@InquisitorThomas]

@@mardshima2070 This just shows you know much about Drizzt, the dude is pretty much Superman levels of paragon.

[@InquisitorThomas]

@@DaDunge Yeah, I’m not super happy with the execution of the new Drow subculture idea, but it’s nice that players that want a Drow PC aren’t restricted to the Drizzt arc.

[@joshcox5668]

Yes, thats what it is supposed to be. There is an Elven High Magic spell that allows good aligned Drow to be put back into Arvandor (Elf Heaven), but it has to be followed by a path of redemption. Even including everything Drizzt has done he might not be able to be aloud in heaven. I do NOT like this new lore

[@Exile_Sky]

TFW *EVERYONE* forgets that Eilistraee exists. Even WotC.

[@powerist209]

Well, Drizzt was pop-culture spotlight. Like the amount of "Chaotic Good Rebels moping about his Chaotic Evil races" parodies. Definitely not nude dance since her 4E or Salvatore version had Drows being sexualized or heavily decadent so that Drizzt would be special (also ignoring his dad, Jaraxle but more on selfish side, and maybe anyone living in Skullport). Also maybe not seeing an appeal of fun-Drow with a lute and handing out cookies to any passing people.

[@lichofhearts7479]

Welcome to the liberal makeover.

[@silver4831]

They are saying drow are Africans now effectively. It's just...beyond me.

[@Linogewillkillallofy]

Ellistraee is boring

[@professorsponge1554]

Notice: no mention of elistraee, Vhaeraun, or the other drow gods. its only lolth. That's a fair chunk of FR lore to just chuck out the window right there.

[@slyfer60]

R.A. Salvatore has never cared about the other deities. This is his book his show.

[@thewok]

So.... they’re getting rid of Light Sensitivity and drow equipment disintegrating in sunlight, then? Because those no longer make sense with this new retconned lore.

[@josephfernandez8015]

So Wizards is just forgetting about the cult of Eilistraee then? Hasn’t that always been the main set of “good” drow?

[@override367]

Too problematic, Eilistraee is too male gazey. So now they're just retexturing a group of high elves and a group of wood elves as being black skinned (why the ever living fuck are their skins black and why do they have sunlight sensitivity? thats from living in the underdark for millenia)

[@lauraw2526]

@@override367 Lame. As a female fan I don't see anything wrong with Eilistraee, one of the coolest goddesses ever.

[@thfkmnIII]

@@override367 they got their dark skin and white hair from a ritual that cut ties from the elf creator god you pleb

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@override367 I think the reason for their blue-black skin being living in the Underdark makes some sense. But why in the fucking Nine Hells are those non-Lolth worshipper being forced in the Underdark? Still doesn't quite work.

[@rns7426]

The thing I love about D&D? I can ignore all that garbage and keep my games lore the way it has been since the 80s.

[@CloudyDaze]

I'm the dungeon master. Drow are whatever the hell I want them to be.

[@evanwhite5704]

I kind of like the idea of like having just a few tiny enclaves of drow who left the Underdark centuries ago, maybe not entire civilizations but small populations and societies. I may try to work them into my world, but I also may not. I think that’s the real point of them making this, so you can use it if you want.

[@CloudyDaze]

@@evanwhite5704 Yea that's really the perfect answer tbh. I'm of the mindset that Dungeon Masters have a duty to make, bend, and break the world as they see fit. Best part about all this is even if WotC make changes that completely overwrite established canon and contradict everything you know about drow... you could simply opt to not use the new material, and create the world as you see fit.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

I hear you. Still sad though...

[@CloudyDaze]

@@MandalorSkyrd Honestly, that's still valid.

[@scruffypuppet8633]

No I am the dungeon master!

[@jameshwren]

I’m more concerned about the dismissing them as cultists instead of an entire societal structure. In the end, I think I will run my games as is. I’m running a PC through the Punishments of Lolth while inside of Curse of Strahd, and he is having a blast.

[@pocketheart1450]

I think the word cult here is used in the same context as ancient Greece and Rome. For instance, worship of Aphrodite was common and widespread, but it was still "The Cult of Aphrodite".

[@jameshwren]

@@pocketheart1450 I agree that back then, they may have used cult as a non-pejorative, but in the 20th century, the term cult more succinctly has a negative stereotype for a small radical offshoot with extreme ideas. In this case, I would say that the two drow enclaves of non-Lolth worshippers would be the extreme, l if they had been a cult of Eilistraee, I would have thought it more compelling. Part of my skepticism also stems from my understanding of WotC’s fear of certain words and how the have cleansed magic the gathering of any questionable art or language. If they start calling the people the drow capture and put to work as an ‘unpaid labor force’, and not slaves, it will be a sad day.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@jameshwren I agree, to me its seems that Cult is reserve for "Evil" gods and the "Good", and probably a fair share of "Neutral", get to have religions

[@samwilson2250]

@@jameshwren I totally agree. Especially with that last part. Part of my love of d&d is that there are aspects that are dark, and things that are shunned in today's world is easily accepted in d&d. Yet WoTC is trying to make is safe, accepting and easily accessible. While not bad per say it takes some of what made d&d interesting out.

[@markusbarten455]

@@jameshwren You know Lolthtism technically is a cult. They worship Lolth as their one true God instead of the Seladrim or dark Seladrim. They did break of mainstream Elf or Fey religion. They were just very successfull with it. As for Ellistrea, Ithink she isn't mentioning because salvatro is one of the main writers and he doesn't like her. I read somewhere, that when asked why he didn't use her in his Drizzt novels that this is because he thinks she has the word waifu written all over her.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

"Whole societies of DROW who are not evil because they NEVER followed Lolth." The drow BECAME drow by following Lolth! And so, now, there is nothing special about Eilistraee and Drizzt. Whole bunch of other drow just like them. Huh ... If you like this, good. Make it part of your game and make your games great, but this will not be part of my game.

[@vicmartone]

Are you insane? The character to overcome the culture around him and stick to his values is what made him special, not having the values in the first place. Zaknafein had the values and did jackshit

[@Naev0w0]

@@vicmartone he is saying that if there are entire cultures that did exactly what he did... then he isn't really special anymore is he?

[@Naev0w0]

I still use 3.5 lore. Bad guys are bad, good guys are good. The nuances in their character is NUANCED, not yelled at you by the book

[@jasonmilam7204]

@@Naev0w0 I still use 2Ed Avanced Lore....cuuuuuuz that's where it all started getting detailed. Even Eilistraee (Complete Book of Drow), I accept 3.5 amendments and minor alterations to some point. You got a thumbs up from me!!!

[@markusbarten455]

I once read on a wiki that Drow originally meant something like "shadow face" or something in the 10000 year history of the elves and only later became synonym for worshipper of spider momy dom. But a read that in the early 2000, so take this with a grain of salt. They maybe could fix this by saying that technically they are dark elfs, but in this day and age even the other elf call them Drow despite knowing that it isn't the correct terminology.

[@VhaidraSaga]

This is why I'm so glad I've created my own world and write my own stories.

[@clarkside4493]

If these drow have been here the whole time, how did they survive the Spellplague without being revealed?

[@grahamschatz5474]

Cow tools

[@powerist209]

Drow of the Underdark had that concept (also the Drows being decentralized being the major reason why they haven't swarm the surface aside from sunlight allergy), where El Minister interviewed with a female Drow who was friendly (or one of Silverhand sister)...maybe they could add Out of the Abyss crisis where it might cause many to rethink Lolth. Or maybe if anyone bothers to research Eilistraee.

[@elilevinger5981]

we denial it's memory and existents like the whole edition >

[@JonathanSirico]

Plot armor. Wait until they unveil their highly magical, highly intelligent orc society 'that's been there all along'.

[@override367]

Nobody who writes for WOTC anymore knows what the spell plague is, they're basically just making it up as they go Look at the pile of shit that is Descent into Avernus, where a random citizen of a city signs a devil contract for everyone in the city's souls (what lol?)

[@xavierdevenoges4610]

Glad someone else noticed Dragon+ existence is advertisment. This version is nowhere close to the old Dungeon Magazines or Dragon Magazines.

[@crankysmurf]

I deleted the Dragon+ app because it's just informercials -- the Dragon and Dungeons magazines had solid content because back then we didn't have websites to get articles and new adventures!

[@NovelPilot01]

In all honesty I can see a expansion where there is a group of drow that escaped the underdark and organized, But retconing any lore from the books or in the base lore I don't think is needed or even wanted by anyone in-particular and would kind of ruin the struggle that Drizzt has faced.

[@deamongimli]

I mean, the followers of Eilistraee have already established drow communities above-ground, this is just Wotc randomly adding ancient drow cities that have never followed Lolth out of nowhere.

[@NovelPilot01]

@@deamongimli yeah which feels weird to me. I would say "just establish Elistaee more in the realms". But I think that is what the Star light elves are there for, I have no idea of the druid shadow drow are about seems random but I hope they make something interesting from it.

[@irontemplar6222]

Honestly that's one of the reasons I felt the addition of Elustree was rather odd. (She didn't exist when Drizzt as a character was written.) However it was mostly able to be ignored through the simple fact that perhaps they just weren't prominent and barely known at the time However there being entire cultures of good aligned drow on the surface makes me ask many questions about why people thought Drizzt was an oddity.

[@NovelPilot01]

@@irontemplar6222 Yeah all this new lore they are trying to make fit feels off. If there was a group of good drow how many people should have been aware of it? and if so wouldn't that make all the heavy racism against Drizzt void?

[@irontemplar6222]

@@NovelPilot01 Effectively yes. I mean even the Addition of the good Drow goddess Eilistraee and her followers kind of took away from this (mainly because when they added her they failed to look at the timeline set by the Drizzt books) But even then they had the excuse of them being hidden and in extremely small no-name enclaves With exception to one apparent temple to her in waterdeep skullport, but I dont know anything about it. (Of course this had led many Eilistraee to conclude that R.A Salvator doesnt like the drow goddess. When the reality is the Drow goddess simply didn't exist at the time IRL.) However even with these misgivings. It was small enclaves here and there that exsisted, and the majority of them had "escaped" long ago, and had lived in these enclaves all there lives. What Wotc are suggesting is quite literally making there be massive regions of drow that apparently dont follow the main evil drow goddess. I mean I could get behind a group of drow worshiping a natury druided aspect of lolth or some other such thing, but not an outright different group that apparently just existed the whole time.

[@Ragitsu]

I'm sticking to my AD&D 2e books. For those of you who want well-written lore on the Drow, I *highly* recommend that you check out the _Demihuman Deities_ supplement from TSR.

[@michaeltalley2283]

I'll likely just keep the Lore of Drow from 2nd Edition with 3rd edition expansions on them :3 It made for some great campaigns with Drow.

[@JaymeSplendid]

3.5 all the way.

[@michaeltalley2283]

@@JaymeSplendid indeed, and failing that. Pathfinder 1e

[@whitneymohrhauser8753]

I think the Wizards had realize that from a players aspect that Eilastraee is rather popular Goddess. I do like the choice aspect of being good or evil. There are things about this bothers me. One it degrades the Spider Queen in stating she only got few thousand of illythiri and sub division. It lessens the impact of the Drow and the victory she had with Corellon Laurethian. Also lessens the impact of Maerymdra and how Eilastraee gain the city. It gives Eilastraee an artificial power boost. Part of the Drow interaction that surface races are living in fear of them.

[@GahloWake]

Problem is, the writeup never mentions any of the other Drow pantheon even once.

[@loyaleagle]

She’s certainly a useful and popular goddess when running drow as meaningful characters in a story. Eilastraee needs clarification and a power boost, I say.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

Honestly yeah this just kind of feels like a way for some players to cop out of the classic Drow lore, but it's worthwhile to reserve judgement until we see it. If the new drow societies feel lazy and pasted in just for players to cop out of the established setting lore, then ew that sucks. If they make these societies interesting and unique (as in they carry over their ancient illythiri traditions from before Lolth) it could be pretty cool. We'll see. There are ways they could do it right. DnD writing is always hit or miss, sometimes lazy and sometimes inspired.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@monsieurdorgat6864 I don't have much faith with what they're gonna do with those hidden, always been there, "Drow" faction, but who knows... a broken clock is correct twice a day, right

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

@@MandalorSkyrd I mean hey DnD is responsible for both awesome stuff like the Blood War as well as dumb shit like Rilmani. I'll give it a 50/50 chance.

[@clarkside4493]

I really think those northern drow should have been psionic as the reason they could break free and the reason nobody remembers them. Total missed opportunity.

[@DaDunge]

I wonder how the northern Drow handle snow blindness and the midnight sun. The arctic seems like the worst possible place for Drow. Maybe they hibernate through the summer?

[@kazarofchult8086]

I would’ve left this. Maybe I’ll put that in my own realms incarnation

[@sith1986]

@@DaDunge honestly I'm more concerned about how the hell they are surviving in what is basically Antarctica. Did they just forget that Menzoberanzan is already IN the north?

[@TheSouthernPirate]

Btw Obsidian black skin is Drow skin. This ridiculous purple look is nuts. Drow are based on Dark Elves/Black Elves/Trow (yes Trow) from Nordic, Germanic, and Shetland legend. Evil elves/fairies. Bearing in mind these are legends from a time before people went to Africa it has nothing to do with black people. It is about horrors in the dark.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

Personally, I just see it as Drow skin going from Deep Blue/Purple to Obsidian black. They can't prove that they're aren't any obsidian black skinned left ;)

[@TheSouthernPirate]

@@MandalorSkyrd WOTC are taking black skinned people (Drow) and making them whiter and whiter because of racism.......ironic much?

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@TheSouthernPirate Ironic indeed

[@michaelwolf8690]

Yeah but TSR wrote them long after black people had been kidnapped from Africa and enslaved in other countries. So black skinned, curly haired, slave elves was pretty vulgar.

[@zionthedragon8866]

FYI, nordic is germanic, and shetland lore is lore of nordic invaders who conquered that land from the beaker and later their mixed descendents, the picts. I count shetland as nordic culture lands.

[@dans2946]

Seemed like there were so many in Drizzt's family that could have turned out better if not for their society like his one sister, his father, and Jarlaxle.

[@TheGrilljon]

Honestly half of Bregan D'aerthe could fall into the as well.

[@toxiccandy7888]

Guess I will just keep running my 5e games in 2nd Ed Toril.

[@Ragitsu]

3e/3.5e is as late as I am willing to use.

[@petersturmey4868]

There have always been Drow that don't follow the spider queen and some have lived on the surface.

[@doomsday2703]

Apparently WotC can’t be bothered to check the lore on their property 😂

[@youcantbeatk7006]

@@doomsday2703 Sounds like Disney to me.

[@doomsday2703]

@@youcantbeatk7006 Ikr?

[@Joje1981]

@peter sturmey sure but weren’t they called dark elves? Not drow specifically

[@justarandomgal2683]

@@Joje1981 No. they are surface dwelling drow.

[@CJToole]

I was under the impression there were always some Drow that "escaped" and didn't worship Lolth...was I in a fever dream?

[@atomicash2475]

Their has been, but now their whole sub divisions that have always been their that no one knows about until now

[@diversezebra6754]

No...but yes. Nudy moon goddess made an effort to save any that she could with redemption and willingly followed the Drow into exile. But results of her effort are scarcely heard.

[@enso8379]

I think the emphasis needs to on "some" and not escaped. They want to change it so playing a drow isn't a auto death sentence to walk down the streets of waterdeep. If you have the marks of lolth though... By having larger regional groups it gives you more backstory than I escaped. You could be a local guildsman like every other race and still be a drow without the you are evil stigma.

[@mileseximius]

@@enso8379 and that's trash It is sacrificing lore that could have been developed upon to produce a natural result identical to the one proposed. If they'd gone with more drow over time going topside and joining nude sword girl cult, then that could have provided a whole population of them to work with. If they'd gone with some rebellion of stone sort out another, it could go portly, but even then, it would make sense given the hellish conditions they live in. Just making a population up that's definitely always been there whose existence would have been revealed during the Spell Plague and who presumably would have at least been noticed by now if they've existed for millennia just leaves hooked in the lore, devalues Drizzt and other good drow and their hardships, and further tried Eilistraee into irrelevance in the lore. This solution to "but PC drow might get the racism at them" is trash, not only because it's unnecessary, it could have been done far more elegantly and with greater integration with past lore, and it is just riddled with logistical issues that would need to be handwaved. It's lazy work by lazy schmucks who don't care about lore, and saying it's good because it since X minor inconvenience just encourages them to continue to ruin the setting and give people more reason to just pretend the franchise stopped existing after it made 4e.

[@WereScrib]

The largest drow city literally is a place Lolth doesn't exist. (Llurth Dreir), there were cities where Kiransalee or Vhaeraun totally usurped Llolth, and even implied that most drow only 'pretend' to worship Llolth. (But betrayal is part of her domain, so she encourages people to betray her but be afraid of the consequences)

[@snobgoblinDK]

I would have preferred a more organic transition away from the Lolth focused drow, like splinter groups or houses breaking away. Also, the concepts of snow and swamp drow doesn’t really excite me.

[@lenorevanalstine1219]

also if they have always been in those areas and never fell how the hell are they even drow their just regular even sub race if they havent fallen it dosnt really make much sense lore wise but they they will probably change all of it knowing them

[@mudpound]

It’s funny because swamp and snow drow were already ideas my friends and I had and used in world building. Like, they’re just drow who don’t live underground in places with lots of shade/darkness. Nuff said.

[@marcuskylemarcuskyle222]

Wait until next extension and the Soy Drow.

[@TequilaMockingbrd]

Can't wait to see them tackle devils and demons next -"You thought Devils and Demons were all evil..now learn the real truth"

[@31TeV]

Yeah, it's interesting how people have problems with there being 'inherently monstrous/evil races', but not 'inherently monstrous/evil creatures' such as fiends. Where do they draw that distinction?

[@masonvanzandt7799]

I think its gonna be cool when we explore the devils and demons who are disguising themselves as shopkeeps and tavern owners because they have left their home planes and therefore lost part of their demonic/devilish essence.

[@artur_pc]

@@31TeV IMHO the Humanoid tag.

[@31TeV]

@@artur_pc That sounds about right. Although that does feel somewhat arbitrary when there are plenty of humanoid looking/shaped creatures that are evil monstrosities, fiends, etc. So I'm still not quite sure why it's ok for those creatures to be inherently evil, but not humanoids.

[@artur_pc]

@@31TeV that's just my own "head canon" (and how I do in my own homebrews). An erynies looks like a humanoid, but it is a fiend which is always evil. So a humanoid by definition would not be inherently good or evil. Sure, other creatures might have similar free will (except for celestials and fiends, of course), but these are not the rule. So, still kind of arbitrary, but it's a cool explanation for the meaning of the Humanoid tag I think.

[@hotramen5952]

imagine trying to retcon your largest crossover success, and ignoring eiliesraee existing while you do it.

[@thedragonknight3600]

I mean I'm obviously not gonna be the only one saying this, I'm not even the first to say it, but just saying 'Hey, these are random drow who never followed Lolth lookie lookie' Diminishes the lore of the Drow quiet a bit. I feel like this is a change for the crowd who believe evil races are a bad thing who have been very vocal as of late, so their response is 'Well the evil ones are just the ones that people have known! There have always been good drow just everyone is stupid!' And that really detracts from what they had going on. They don't even need to work that hard to change it, just rewrite it as "Elistree in recent years has been growing stronger, he call to the surface embolden many Drow to rise to their old home on the surface and create their own cities." Like boom. I just fixed your lore WotC, you're welcome pay me a trillion dollars.

[@affsteak3530]

You could even say it was something Elistrae did after temporarily absorbing Vhaeraun's portfolio. All drow resentful of Lloth society suddenly feel a surge of hope and an overwhelming urge to get to the surface through any means necessary. Later, Elistraee and Vhaeraun are separated again, but both have a bunch of new worshippers on the surface.

[@Envy4you]

I feel I should warn you that they don't pay a trillion dollars even to the people that write the official lore, heck they don't even pay them a hundred thousand a year, and for a lot of them is hard to even reach the 30/40.000 yearly. Sorry D:

[@override367]

Eilistraee doesn't even exist anymore, these drow probably don't even worship a god because the writers are WOTC are HACKS now

[@jean-sebastienleduc1484]

@@override367 I don't remember where I read it, but she was reborn after a cosmic glitch...

[@deamongimli]

@@override367 Eilistraee re-emerged in the sundering, she is very much still active in 5e. At least that was the case before now... starting to wonder what's happened to her since the start of 5e.

[@vicnedel02]

So let me get this straight. The good drow have either been playing hide and seek for a million years and no-one knew about them, or people in the north and south knew but that info somwhow never reached Drizzd. In his 2 centuries of living on the surface no-one bothered to tell him?

[@asskicker4000]

Mary Sue Driz'zit just never being told about their existence would be hilarious.

[@vicnedel02]

It would be kinda silly if Drizzd came to one of those secret societies and found out that they are also rotten to the core but in their own unique way.

[@thesonofdormammu5475]

Maybe the wanted to meet him at first but they got as sick of him as the rest of us and are now hiding from him? Probably because of his whiny journal entries between each part of his books.

[@benjaminr8961]

I think there are references to the drow that follow a dance god.

[@nerdyhexel307]

Ah, so the J. K. Rowling Method of "this is how it is/has always been despite me not writing it that way originally".

[@MandalorSkyrd]

Indeed

[@greglong7170]

Not really because WotC is releasing books to support this. They are developing the lore, not changing the lore. Rowling changed her lore and then never bothered to add it to any books at all. WotC has basically given a preview of upcoming material and told you the framing. Lots of stories, especially in the realm of fantasy, involve the discovery of previously unknown locations and people. It's a staple of fantasy writing for the heroes to discover some kind of previously unknown culture. Rowling is just getting on Twitter and saying "this is how I always wanted it" and that isn't the same as the author of a story adding these new elements to the world in a story and then framing it as something that had always been there but unknown because no one ever traveled there.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@greglong7170 They're doing both (as far as we can say). Yes there's adding two new "Drow" enclaves and cultures, but from what it looks like they changing already existing lore with the now renamed "Udadrow", such as them being a splinter group, no mention whatsoever of any city beside Menzoberrazan (which is neither first nor the biggest nor most powerfull Drow city). Also, not saying it *will* be the case, but sometimes you can retcon things by simply adding stuff, when it recontextualise past events.

[@greglong7170]

@@MandalorSkyrd No they aren't. You're ignoring the fact that WotC is releasing new materail that features this info. You're trying to act like the act of previewing story content is the same as simply changing your setting via tweets and it's not. What Rowling does is says things like "X character is gay" but then NEVER supports it in her writing. WotC is making these changes, and yes saying that some of these things have always been there, but they aren't acting like Rowling because we found out this information via information meant to drum up buzz for upcoming products. WotC is supporting these changes with additional novels and possibly even campaign books. We know for a fact that lots of this stuff will get covered in an upcoming novel written by Salvatore. Which means this isn't the JK Rowling method of "this is how it is/has always been despite me not writing it that way originally" because WotC is showing it in their writing and products, something Rowling does not do. You just haven't had the chance to read it yet. In order for the two to be the same you pretty much have to ignore the fact that we know this information as a function of marketing for an upcoming book. Developing your lore via new books is not the same thing as getting on Twitter and changing your lore but not otherwise supporting it in the products you make. These changes are going to be featured in products WotC is making. If this is just like Rowling then pretty much any changes to the lore or any new information WotC releases is like that. It would also mean that pretty much anytime someone gave you teaser information about an upcoming book they were acting like Rowling. It would mean that movie and tv trailers are acting like Rowling. Are you going to seriously claim that a movie trailer or a tv show trailer is the same thing as what Rowling does? Because if you aren't going to make that argument then you can't make the same argument about this. These are changes being made to the setting that we will learn more about when Salvatore's new book drop. These are not changes we know about because WotC got on Twitter and then left it at that.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@greglong7170 Hold your horses, mate. I never said they're doing a J.K. Rowling and retcon stuff via tweet or one sentence during an interview. They're doing it by the book and all that. I'm just saying that from what's been said officially (i.e. the dragon+ article) they're not just adding stuff, they're going to change stuff as well.

[@thomasjones4570]

Yeah no. I am taking a hard pass on a LOT of this "new" D&D nonsense these last few years. They are completely wrecking things that did not need even the slightest changes and so far, my twitch followers are loving the old school and say they are sticking to either 2.5 or 3.0 rules and lore.

[@Christian_Bagger]

It’s like terraforming something timeless to appease a certain group of people in the present for quick brownie points in expense of good quality writing and handicap future prospects.

[@zionthedragon8866]

I hate what they did to sapphire, and probably all gem dragon, lore (they didn't change they still followed sardior like tiamat to chromatics thankfully) as they they are essentially blobs of gem colored dragons in the vague shape of a dragon, with a over emphasis on psionics.

[@robertfalse9063]

Agreed. I like the core 5e rules, but the material they are producing is lame. My game aims for an old school feel. In short, *Human Fighters* welcome.

[@the_wanderer8898]

I'm still hardcore into 3 and 3.5. There is so much material out there for it that it is truly customizable and easy to build and play however you want. From a DM perspective, there is literally a chart or table for anything I need to reference.

[@marcuskylemarcuskyle222]

They lost me with their BS lore at 4.0 start, killing everyone then when 4.0 sunk resurrected as new characters. I turned my back on them( lore wise) and never went back.

[@patrickbuckley7259]

One: Dark Sun was the First D&D setting with an ongoing Meta-Plot, it is not a stagnant setting. Two: There where already good Drow, they have cool lore, and awesome patron goddess the whole works. This is stupid. Instead of moving the Drow's story forward and having a new Drow civilization come into being, they are retconning the past. This is hack writing of the highest order. There was this amazing set up to have this culture of wondering Chaotic Good nomads who are trying to shirk off the stigma of their kin, all while acting as some of the most noble and good hearted warriors in the battle against Lolth and other forces of evil & tyranny. Give em a bit of Gypsy/Hippy vibe. All you would have to say is Eilistraee's teachings and following have become so prevalent, and so many Drow have fled the Underdark, that now they are forming their own society, possibly as numerous as their subterranean cousins. I mean it was kind of inevitable, so long as they did not kill Eilistraee off that something like this would happen. Plus Drow have that Chr Bonus, so I could see them living as merchants and entertainers. You would not even need to remove the Sunlight sensitivity, literally just say they live a nocturnal lifestyle (ok this is starting to sound like a Fantasy race from my setting... starting to see where that idea might have came from...) hell the name Starlight Elves would be a cool name for these guys. There where also the Shadow Elves, but then they had them all get turned back into normal Elves, which was dumb as hell too...

[@jennaherman3859]

actually they did kill her off as she was about to kill her mother, then her and her brother died, fast forward past the spell plague event and corellon resurrected them both. and took eilistraee back into the seldarine proper and thus granted her followers the same reincarnation vision of the elven reverie rather than lolths darkness filled visions. but she has been back long enough to have rebuilt her still faithful (in fact i believe selune kept granting eilistraee's followers spells, in the hopes her friend would eventually return). i have a campaign idea where i have a small community of good aligned eilistraee followers living in a small valley west of Cormyr in 3.5. bsically it exists on the surface above the drow city of wizards if i remember right.

[@BreadDestroyer]

I don't mind drow who can choose between good and evil. I mind that WotC keeps giving Eilistraee the shaft.

[@nicolaezenoaga9756]

I know right? It was right there for them to use and they didn't!

[@thfkmnIII]

Highkey the new ppl at Wizards of the Woke seem to be gender studies graduates who dont respect the lore at all

[@MrDemonWorm]

@@thfkmnIII So...many...buzzwords...!

[@Sylentmana]

I mean, don’t we all want to give the naked goddess our own shaft?

[@Sylentmana]

@@MrDemonWorm he has a point though.

[@VengefulJarl]

And all the while just completely ignoring eilistraee and any good she did.

[@WereScrib]

and ignoring almost all existing Drow lore. Southern drow were already culturally different, as Llurth Dreir was the 'city Lolth didn't exist in'--they followed ol slimelord and were probably more hyper-violent. And there was the lore that 'more than half the drow follow Vhaeraun or Eilistraee, but believe they are the only one' and uh, the Menzoberranzan boxed se in 2e detailing that most drow are more of an 'oppressed mass' rather than universally evil.

[@VengefulJarl]

@@WereScrib better said than i could have. Thank you.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Feel like R.A Salvador’s never liked Eilistrae..

[@VengefulJarl]

@@oliviawilliams6204 i highly agree. For years I've felt like Drizzt should have followed her instead of Mileki.

[@LordSathar]

Wizards doesn't care about your nostalgic memories of playing their game, trying to hold onto those makes a gatekeeper and prolly a bad person!

[@natekite7532]

I definitely never had a problem with the drow as written, and I didn't see the lack of good drow as a problem to solve... I know there are lots of people that have a problem with the drow (either because it's an evil society, because of the racial aspect of it, or both), but I've always been ok with them. I just hope the new drow don't feel forced, and I really hope the drow stay mostly evil. IMO they should stay the scourge of the underdark. Also what the hell why is Eilistraee being left out of this

[@catoblepasomega]

Feels like an almost complete rewrite of drow lore and the history surrounding them, throwing out pretty much everything not written directly by Salvatore and centered around Menzoberranzan. Decades of established culture and religion. Cities and nations out the window to accommodate this new vision. Seems pretty forced to me.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

@@erad3035 That's pretty dramatic. I think lazy writing (there's always been plenty of that in DnD) and writing for a larger audience are two very separate things. This just feels like more classic lazy DnD writing. Just more "add another society instead of fleshing out the ones you have" which they've been doing for absolutely ever and why DnD has a billion arbitrary and redundant humanoid-ish creatures that serve a single dumb purpose.

[@tehtayziez]

@@erad3035 Lol wut. Chill out, it's very clearly just Wizards lazily using any and all homebrew ideas to make money regardless of lore. People since the dawn of dnd have always been saying "I wish I could play a (insert class/race/etc) but have it the way I want". Also kinda ironic your first reaction to some cash grabby 'DLC' bait is "ITS THE GODDAM' RETARD SJW'S" that's some tin-foil hat, nutty red-pilled conspiracy theory shit.

[@joemamajoastar8708]

@@NateSpinney then leave if it's being ruined

[@MandalorSkyrd]

Personally, although I understand why some would prefer having some races as "good" and others as "evil", I think for most races it's stupid to limit them to a specific alignment. In my opinion Drow are evil because they way their society makes them, and not because it's their nature. So I'm all far letting people know that it's possible to have traditionally "evil" races be not "evil". *BUT* you can't just say 'those are just a little tiny splinter group, most are good actually', you have to put in the work. I'm tire of having people being "good all along" and only being "evil" because they're corrupt or something

[@classicalteacher]

A corrected quote from WotC. "You thought we couldn't screw up the Forgotten Realms any more than we had.... You were wrong."

[@troffle]

I have altered the Realms. Pray I don't alter them further.

[@classicalteacher]

@@troffle hahahahahjsjHaha!

[@jamesdoble7580]

Our group Have not liked any of the changes They have made, So we play 2nd Edition and only change Thac0. We will be keeping our Drow, Drowish. :D

[@andrewtomlinson5237]

Haven;t played anything other than 2E for about 35 years now. In the late 80's our group changed Drow to be Albino (from living in caves...) and made them insular and reluctant to deal with outsiders rather than "Evil".

[@wanderdragon1075]

WotC really gonna drop Eilistraee like that?

[@wanderdragon1075]

@PenitentDeadMan308 T if that were the case...you’d think that they’d have said as much. I’m less worried about her being retconned out, and more that she’ll be ignored. Again. Like she is by basically every DM who screeches about how Drow should be all evil.

[@catoblepasomega]

@@wanderdragon1075 New lore was written by Salvatore who has a history of avoiding writing about the other members of the Dark Seldarine and other drow cities besides Menzo. That doesn't bode well.

[@DaDunge]

@@wanderdragon1075 They barely said anything about anything about these new types of Drow.

[@thfkmnIII]

Highkey the new ppl at Wizards of the Woke seem to be gender studies graduates who dont respect the lore at all

[@DaDunge]

@@thfkmnIII As opposed to the people who changed the lore with 4th edition or those who changes it with 3.5? Or 3rd ed or 2nd ed or with AD&D? The fact that you have a problem with it this time says more about you than about them.

[@claykeeton1331]

i dont understand this tbh. i have played with Drow for over 30 years. Drow were never 100% evil. Lolths bunch are pretty bent...but what about the ones that follow Ellistrae? and there are several other Drow gods other than Lolth that have large followings and other cities in the UD. Lolth just gets the most attention. this is just another instance of WotC throwing the baby out with the bath water. players like me want new content, not old content that we know and understand retconned

[@elilevinger5981]

what the difference between what WotC did and saying - ''Around this mountain there something you didn't know before''

[@Machiroable]

@@elilevinger5981 What's point of the dark elf now? Might as well retcon all of them into chaotic neutral moon elfs at this point. The whole point of Lolth is that she's the major god of the drow, just like Zeus to ancient Greece, to change so she's now just a local cult god is like slap in the face of the whole lore, because how much of the drow(and whole elf society) society works in relation to their gods and religion.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I figured it was the ruling demon queen spider that kind of angled them toward being evil. That checks out.

[@jand.4737]

This is not retconned because it already existed about 8 or 10 years before 5e was a thing. It only didn't get repeated in 5e books.

[@milanivkovic1680]

@@jand.4737 Lolth was just a cult goddess before? Damn. I believe you think about Elistrae, and if so, why not push that part of the story?

[@Natsirt666]

There are also the Drow who left Guallidurth under the guidance of Vhaeraun, and travelled to Ultoksamrin.

[@Natsirt666]

My boi Vhaeraun doesn't get enough Drow love IMO.

[@affsteak3530]

Vhaeraun only exists so evil drow on the surface have a God to worship. He's portrayed as a patsy of Lloth or a one dimensional villain and it sucks. 😒

[@Natsirt666]

@@affsteak3530 In my game he's an emancipator. Deliberately fucking with Llolth's reign. Almost a 'double-agent' of sorts. He's cool IMO.

[@TheBayzent]

@@Natsirt666 True, I've had several campaigns in the Dalelands with Vhaerunites trying to recreate Cormanthor, allying with the Fey'ri, while fighting against Zhentil Keep and the Battledale and those were some of the best campaigns we've enjoyed lately.

[@Natsirt666]

@@TheBayzent sounds epic dude!

[@TenchiBushi]

Elistrae is a Drow Goddess (chaotic good alignment).

[@ddillard143]

Didn't they get the name Drow After Lloth's betrayal? So how do these other dark elves have this name also?

[@abellator7560]

plus wernt they bound by the mythal forcing them into the underdark thus negating the other "drow" surface cities

[@Vospader21]

I really wish they would develop Eilistraee some more.

[@Christian_Bagger]

Yea, something about drows on the surface starting a cult intending to make it more legitimate and that can ultimately leads to either a transition or gateway for those in the under dark, there is a lot of great things... this just feels like, being out of touch with the material and taking the easy way out.

[@rainbowslushy223]

I like the redemption arch, it is a big part of my character motivation.

[@Dark-Lord-Of-The-Sith]

So the character that actually made the Drow popular because he was unique is no longer unique? As long as I run games the bulk of the Drow will be following Lolth. Evil elves that have an agenda as a culture. They care about themselves, mold nature to their liking, are vegetarian, and see all humanoid life as worthless. Those are the elves that are a true force. That is why Drow have always been my favorite.

[@override367]

I mean, the nobility, the families vying for the ruling council anyway, and they do all of this at the detriment of their own happiness. They make it quite clear there are other "good" drow, Drizzt is unique that he had the courage to run away and managed to survive being a direct enemy of the city of spiders. There are many more Drow who have escaped and live on the surface (usually presumed dead on a raid), some of them pull an Omniman and have a crisis of faith and kill someone to prove to themselves they are "good drow" and flee back into the underdark. Some are killed by surfacers for how they look. There are entire communities of Drow who have made new lives on the surface, and always have been in the books. Not that I expect any of the current crop of wizard's of the coast employees to have read any of the books

[@videogollumer]

Okay, Two things. 1) Lolth is a spider goddess, and spiders are far from herbivorous; 2) How would they get fruits and vegetables? They live deep within the Underdark; they get no sunlight, which plants need to grow! They'd have to live off of fungi to be vegetarian.

[@Dark-Lord-Of-The-Sith]

@@videogollumer as per Drow of the Underdatk, they eat moss and different types of fungi.

[@Eladdan]

I don't really understand the change, myself. Drow players always had the choice of not being evil and there's always been a good Drow god to choose since AD&D. Hell, one of my first characters in AD&D was an evil Drow tracking down her sister who'd answered the call of said good god. This idea that you somehow don't have a choice is factually incorrect. First they made Variant Humanoid in Tasha's, now we're getting Drow subraces... as if to say Drow aren't themselves an elven subrace. It all stinks of politics and agendas.

[@Edge024]

The fact that the new "mark of Lolth" is a white face tattoo is pretty sad.

[@Kosmtheandric]

@@seppa193 hey seppa haven't looked into ravenloft but what did they destroy in ravenloft then?

[@phoneguy8369]

@@seppa193 Sorry you don't get your super racist romani clones in strahd anymore :( cry more about it

[@Arcahnslight]

@@phoneguy8369 Found the brainwashed woke cultist. Imagine going through life dissecting everything in the hopes of finding something to scream "racism" at so you can feel better about yourself. Get an actual hobby and stop ruining this one. You might actually learn to enjoy life instead of pleasuring yourself to the latest virtue signaling hysteria.

[@MrDemonWorm]

@@seppa193 Totally normal and sane thing to call that...

[@LailokenScathach]

I'm old school, so we made up our lore for our campaigns building on what had already been established. D&D is not a game that should be "micro-managed" or filled with minutiae. D&D is in your imagination.

[@nanafrempong4309]

incredibly disappointed that WotC didn't just update Aelistraee lore. Or build on lore that already exists and take the initiative to expand on Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and other drow in that vane. Rather than adding what looks like shallow attempts at diversity tbh. I even would have accepted a Lolth and Mab fey drow mash up. Since Lolth is part of the unseelie court but man. Honestly makes me a little triggered.

[@scimerio1117]

Wizards of the Coast is really forcing my hand.... into closing my wallet.

[@NefariousKoel]

Plenty other great stuff out there, away from WotC nonsense. Hopefully Wizard's buffoonery will introduce more players to such alternatives.

[@ryanadkins4840]

Nothing is sacred, apparently

[@nathanmorgan3647]

That's what happens when you surrender to the cult of soy.

[@michaelwolf8690]

Lots is sacred, this really needs not to be for your own mental health.

[@magonus195]

All that is sacred must be equalized. Blend yourself with us, into the great diversity smoothie, that all cultures and stories must become.

[@MrYac-ie8ie]

@@magonus195 not all, just the European ones. otherwise you're culturally appropriating.

[@zujujjj]

@@michaelwolf8690 8

[@TimPonjican]

I don't even think these retcons are bad, they're just lazy. It's always been here, you just never heard of it is literally the lamest explanation for anything.

[@asskicker4000]

It's like doing an "umm ackchually" on a decade of lore with something pulled out of your ass.

[@BlackLotus30]

@@asskicker4000 A fun way would have been that during the sundering or whaever it's called they crossed over like the dragonborn did and when Abeir and Toril separated again they where left in the underdark as their permanant residence, them fearful of the surface world and the rest of the underdark decided to stay isolated.

[@Dereliction2]

Lazy is bad.

[@GnarledStaff]

I sort of disagree. "they were always here and you never heard of them" is a good way to fill in holes in the lore. But for it to be done well you need a reason no one heard of the new thing, or preferably, something that we have heard of that can be twisted into a misperception. Example: using Hitlers love for the occult as the premise for the existence of Hellboy in the movie. Implementation: perhaps the new drow still killed outsiders but didn't take slaves so the stories of their existence would be attributed to the other drow. That said, it does sound like their implementation is going to be lazy and that they are not going to merge them into the lore very well.

[@kashinkenobi3009]

So I’m with evolving the story and the races etc. I think their book wording is off on how the race as a whole is “evil” but instead of just shoving in lore and saying it was there you just had no idea is lazy. I feel like it could have been a whole story/campaign book where a civil war happened that separated the drown into these three groups at the end of the book. Over all I’ve noticed WOTC getting real lazy in their writing and books recently. It’s very sad to see

[@kashinkenobi3009]

@@youcantbeatk7006 I can’t say, it would be a fun twist to play with but generally no. But with those two those are labeled “fiend” and “celestial” not “humanoid” they are creatures who are made and bound to certain planes of existence. Take zariel for instance. She was a lawful good (I think) celestial who after watching and fighting in the blood war ended up a switching up to lawful evil and becoming a devil and ruler of avernus. She then in the book “decent into avernus” can be redeemed or defeated by the party. There are a lot they can play with and a lot they can do, they just need to stop being lazy IMO. No humanoid race as a whole is evil. Make a drow civil war, introduce metallic kobolds, open the portal to the realm where the orca originally came from and give us more diversity of orcs, etc. just give us a good story about it and not just say “well it’s always been here you just didn’t know”

[@youcantbeatk7006]

@@kashinkenobi3009 If this makes you get it drow are to elves in every way what devils are to angels.

[@kashinkenobi3009]

@@youcantbeatk7006 plus now that they introducing new drow civilizations with different cultures and different lifestyles in different terrains they could basically make them sub races to sub races. Why would drow that live in the Forrest and not underground (at least how they described it) bleed when in sunlight? Do the drow elves in to cold have frost resistance if they’ve been there no long and if not why? Etc. if this was the route they wanted to take they still should have come out with a book marking drow it’s own race with sub races.

[@youcantbeatk7006]

@@kashinkenobi3009 I'm not reading all that.

[@cocaloca5402]

this whole thing is supremely inelegant . I'd have preferred an Event (maybe accompanied by a module) where the actions of Drow heroes lead to the foundation of new Drow nations, and the hypothetical module could have included some big intrigue involving forces of the underdark and the surface opposng the foundation of the new Drow nations as they are too attached to the past and their old grudges. Also a great opportunity to feature Drizz't and Eilistraee in a more prominent role. This just kinda goes "good drow always existed ya dummy, they just stayed hidden from literally everyone and ignored the rest of the world forever (which somehow makes them "good" ?) including persecuted Drow worshippers of Eilistraee who have struggled to escape their fate in the underdark only to be persecuted by surface dwellers and "Udadrow". But then even still you can tell the "bad" drow form the good because their skin is marked by Lolth ? Okay sure you are no longer prejudiced because of their dark skin but you can still tell they are evil from their skin markings. somehow it feels we took 1 step forward and 2 steps back

[@tylerpatti9038]

isn't the reason that the drow are the drow because they followed Lolth into the Underdark?

[@whiskeyhound]

I can see why you'd make the mistake of believing that, seeing as how it was printed in a book published 3 years ago, but that's clearly non-canon because there's no way that a tyrannical goddess would just forget about other groups of drow.

[@elilevinger5981]

there were Dark Elf before there were drow forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_elf

[@override367]

Yes, worshipping Lolth and seeking "Sanctuary" in Menzobaranzan (that's what the city's name means in the old language of the dark elves) is literally what makes them Drow. They have had biological changes from living there for so long: Women are larger, red eyes (usually), superior darkvision, sunlight sensitivity, Darkness, Faerie Fire, Levitation (among nobles), Detect Magic (among nobles) as innate magical abilities. Any drow that did not descend with these dark elves should not have any of these things, but I would bet a months pay the new writers don't know or care about any of that lore, they have a corporate mandate to make GOOD DROW, and since these people think drow are black people, they went for Wakanda as the answer, and why not two at twice the price

[@jadencore]

"Now you can tell which Drow are evil because of their markings, so no more racism!" Pretty much sums up the changes.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

It seems that marking are specific to individuals in great favor with Lolth. Still kinda dumb, but at least that's that

[@gowankommando]

Gotta wear your 'pieces of flair'

[@AmoniaLS]

Not really a fan of the changes, I was hoping they would explore non-noble drow and some of the fear in society they have towards the Goddess and the nobility. Different cities that aren't the same as Menzo, some groups that breached onto the surface and slowly adapted to the sunlight. Turning them into straight-up cultists is weird, and making the favor with Lloth lost so obvious in the form of a marking.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

"It is believed that in the years following Lolth’s schism, some of the drow elves who *remained aboveground* followed their moral compasses north, vanishing from history behind curtains of snow, aurora, and illusion." It's even worse, those "Drow" never went to the Underdark it seemed. They just so happen to look like Drow and bear the some name because

[@zephyrstrife4668]

Well, it's a good thing that, as a DM, the drow can be whatever the hell I want them to be.

[@dawnmarionette]

i’m glad everyone else seems to agree that eilistraee should have been the centerpiece of this development. i’ve been reading as much about her as i can for months now since the darksong knights are the major active faction in my campaign, & there’s really rich lore behind eilistraee & her followers. i don’t mind the new drow groups as long as it doesn’t write eilistraee off entirely or minimize her importance. if they give her attention along with the new ideas, i’ll be fine with it. it will be frustrating if they sideline her in order to make the udadrow appear to be more straight up cultists “compared to the good ones”

[@psiphyre]

Why do the two 'new' drow enclaves -- starlight & greenshadow elves -- sound like they've been swiped from _The Dragon Prince_ franchise?

[@bartonbrevis3831]

One story group has better writing?

[@NoConsequenc3]

because you think dark skinned elves in a forest is somehow unique and special

[@yarnpenguin]

I'm just so happy to see other people mentioning my good lady Eilistraee *wipes away a tear*

[@demi191]

💃🎶

[@toufexisk]

I'm thinking this either lazy and sloppy or political correctness on another level. There are better ways to do this, like Elistraee. New types of Drow and their cities wouldn't exist without her if we kept the lore as is. But perhaps that is the point. Perhaps the point is "we are changing our lore" because they want it to be clear that they CHANNGED something. Perhaps simple additions or adaptations wouldn't be enough for some people even though the result is the same because the word "change" would be missing. Generally I disagree with this direction. I mean sure I'm making small drow communities out of the underdark too, but without changing the lore and with outside help mostly from Elistraee.

[@cataniculescu]

It clearly is a preemptive PR PC thing, unless people started jumping on them for surface-level problematic stuff and I didn't see it yet.

[@cowpercoles1194]

It's "doing the work" to push CRT into the hobby.

[@menes7252]

I agree Elistraee would be a better Avenue instead of just saying “ oh yeah these guys are here but have don’t nothing for the past X about if elven generations”

[@MandalorSkyrd]

I'd say it's probably a bit of both lazy writing and political correctness fucking shit up

[@truevenom97]

I think its just, hey we have a lot of new people and upcoming products. Existing lore is probably too intimidating , lets retcon what we have to be more easy to latch on too. Let's make things as generic as possible for a new beginning

[@kaemonbonet4931]

I remember hearing some of the messed up things the elves did to the drow and the rest of the world and I really wanted there to be a thing about that becoming common knowledge. Like a whole campaign about finding all this secret knowledge and what would the players do with it.

[@silver4831]

Nobody would care. These are wars from literally thousands of years ago.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

@@silver4831bet you're fun at parties

[@Moctipotili1]

If these are the changes WotC are going to do to the Forgotten Realms, they will lose more of a fan base than gain. The idea of adding or changing ancient lore is something I can get behind if done well. Unfortunately, the direction WotC appears to be heading concerning the Drow lowers them in my eyes. Even before Salvatore's novels, the drow were a society to fear and hardly ever comprehend.

[@krispalermo8133]

City of the Drow box set during AD&D2e, .. Drow society is lord over by Lolth priestess, and noble house structure is built around mage/ fighter, rogue/fighters and such where they Charm and dominate ogres to serve as armor tanks. It was reported that more than a few house noble fighter & priestess would cannibalize goblins after killing them with their bare hands. Along with taking bets on how long a koblot or goblin will last being strangle with a choke cord by their grade school age children. They were raised as murders. They look on all other beings as sacrifices to their goddess Lolth, playthings, and food. First rule of their society, praise Lolth. Second rule, look after one's self. Third rule, Improve your house and personal station in life, by any mean able. 25 years ago, I was playing a game where my bard ran into a group of Drow, being played by another group of players. There was this one guy that just didn't like me at the game shop, that will always try to kill or screw over my PC. That guy, " You are playing your Drow priestess all wrong, Lolth follower wouldn't waste a healing spell on a human. Or other Drow will not work with a human in a friendly manner." First guy playing a Drow, " First thing his bard did when .. walking .. into our Drow ambush, he said hello and begin to bribe each of our PC's." Second Drow PC played by a woman, " Then his bard made a good effort in proving he is worth more alive serving us than being dead."

[@thisjust10]

I really don't think so. More people play d&d than ever and the fan base is more progressive and more diverse than ever. A lot of people think it's important to change the problematic aspects of the lore and I agree. Will some people be upset and either ignore the changes or drop from the hobby? It is probable but I think a whole lot more people will be happy about them and people who were previously uncomfortable with stuff surrounding drow will hopefully feel more comfortable in the game world, and in the hobby in general.

[@Moctipotili1]

@@thisjust10 what problematic aspects of the lore are you talking about?

[@troffle]

​@@thisjust10 because continuity, a whole universe created in 1967 and in-world congruent sensible progression of history doesn't matter as long as the majority of the fans will still cough up cash for those money-grubbing bastards at Hasbro and Wizards Of The Coast. And it's rubbish to consider those things "problematic aspects". Choice for the NPCs, what a load of rubbish. They were controlled by a goddess. What are you going to say next, there were conscientious objectors in the Blood War? Pirates along the Sword Coast were Disney-style pirates and never stole things because piracy is bad? Asmodeus liked puppies and in fact founded the Avernus Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals? Racial adjustments to species are silly and should be applied at will, so yeah even though elves are 1.4 to 1.7m and no heavier than about 70kg with a BMI from 19 to 24, YEAH LET'S MAKE THEM POWERED MUSCLEHOUSES? I get not wanting to dredge up horrible history like fake-scientific justifications for falsely claiming that different human ethnic groups had sub-par intelligence. But throwing everything in the completely opposite direction is just as bad, just as stupid and stands to be overthrown itself in decades to come. "Problematic lore" is a load of rubbish. It's one of the more consistent, better structured fictional worlds. The new generation of "social revolutionaries" make me feel ashamed to admit publicly that I'm politically left-wing, because I don't want to admit I'm associated with such rampant blatant dishonest stupidity.

[@JonathanSirico]

WotC is going to mess up their juicy lore and make the really interesting stuff from years ago null and void.

[@anoneamose4866]

This is why sometimes we just utterly reject WotC’s changes and rulings as we run games. Because we want our games to be interesting and make sense.

[@DaDunge]

To be fair D&D lore is a mess already. This is just par for the course.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@DaDunge sure, but they didn't have to make it more so ;)

[@DaDunge]

@@MandalorSkyrd Lore evolves, it is the nature of things.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@DaDunge Sure, but that doesn't mean every change is good. (although yes, it's a very subjective thing)

[@10lightshow]

What’s next? Mind flayers are just misunderstood foreigners with an unusual diet? 😂😂😂

[@Edge024]

And you'll gain XP for having a tea party with Beholders.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

Demons just have anger issues and Devils are control freaks ;)

[@lux551]

I make my own homebrew universes so I dont have to care about what WotC does to their story. As a writer, retcons annoy me because it's lazy writing

[@vvinterwulf]

This is what i have just decided to do. It will be a lot of work but at least i am no more Hostage to their capitalist shenanigans to sell more books.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

For my part I'll just homebrew the Forgotten Realms to where it makes somewhat sense. Homebrew universe is cool by damn so much work x)

[@WOranos]

Retcons are the kind of thing you expect to see when talented writers are traded in for talentless activists.

[@andpoo7759]

@@MandalorSkyrd play 5e in a 3.5 world my dude

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@andpoo7759 I can also play 5E in 5E world pre Drow change ;)

[@nxn9172]

Ehhhh. This is stupid. I really liked the Drizzt books when I was young. It's like they're just trying to make Drow more politically correct or some bullshit like that.

[@thorsforge2905]

Reread the book Evermeet and it leaves the option for these additions to "drow" lore. The Dark Elves had a different name other than Drow before Lolth was cast down. (it's been a long time since I read the book) In any case there were vast cities of Dark Elves across Faerun who were exceptionally powerful in their magic. It stands to reason that whether Lolth claimed "all dark elves" or not. They didn't actually all have to follow her.

[@kentonbaird1723]

What will offend, tomorrow? What will be changed, tomorrow?

[@Ragitsu]

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

[@DaDunge]

9:17 But Drow on the surface in the north makes no sense. The arctic has months of constant sunlight and the reflection of the sun in the white snow can destroy the eyes of humans, who are diurnal creatures, and Drow are not only nocturnal but extremely light sensitive to begin with.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

We shall see if those "Drow" still have light sensibility and 120 ft darkvision. If they don't at least that's that. But if they do... that makes no sense given that those features come from living in the Underdark and so far, it seems those 2 new "Drow" societies never went under.

[@DaDunge]

@@MandalorSkyrd I don't know maybe they hibernate through the summer?

[@override367]

The idea that there cannot be such a thing as an evil society because its problematic is lunacy to me. Drow Society is about as evil as Ancient Rome, but the wokescolds have got us to the point where we can't have any fictional societies with rough edges, because if you have fictional villains who practice slavery, it must mean you endorse slavery. If you have villains who are religious extremists, it means you are a religious extremist. Christ, D&D 6e is just going to be one homogenous world with no disagreements and the only enemies will be mindless constructs, because anything else will piss off someone

[@krispalermo8133]

Aztec empire, Rome was not know for human heart ripping sacrifices.

[@thesonofdormammu5475]

I'm guessing the enemies will be Karens and the patriarchy. Oh, and global warming and capitalism.

[@alexmcclay8152]

Honestly, this pissed me off, a lot. They are completely undermining all the lore by other authors like Ed Greenwood, Eric Boyd, Julia Martin, Elain Cunningham, Brain R James, and any others that I've missed. Fucking christ WoTC. I would have been completely fine if they would make 10% of the Drow. But reducing Lolth to a cult? fucking christ

[@slyfer60]

Cult=95% of the Drow population.

[@tribaltalker1608]

I was reminded of the description of humans in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Mostly harmless". So WotC seem to be changing the Drow description from "Harmful" to "Mostly harmful". Thanks for the video! It was well paced, interesting and contained stuff I didn't know. Excellent.

[@jkl1110]

personally fine with normal drow as we know them but knowing more about the other drow is cool. I prefer if it isn't a lot of them though.

[@michaelpeace8128]

They will probably make it so that way the good Drow Will be the majority while the bad ones are in the minority.

[@jkl1110]

@@michaelpeace8128 I personally hope not. Now if they have them be a rising force due to drizzt collecting the ones who have escaped, I can get behind that. Otherwise it just defeats the whole point that makes him special

[@subzero9113]

At first glance before reading the content it sounds strange concerning Jungle and Arctic Drow. Just because the Old Narrative didnt allow for offshoots that made sense. We already have Regular Arctic and Jungle Elves so its a bizarre idea. I will withhold any judgement until I read it though. I know a LOT of My Crowd are not and thats Ok too everybody is entitles to Their Own opinion. Some folks say its a cash grab and that the Other Drow of the Underdark need more material thats true too I guess.

[@michaelpeace8128]

@@jkl1110 actually that sounds pretty cool! But… can’t say for sure.

[@jkl1110]

@@subzero9113 I can see both sides but I have a more even view. For me I think complexity is great and variation is great but just like "oh yeah it was always a big thing" is super lame. Like with orcs, instead of retconning everything just go into it like they did with many arrows. Tribal cultures can be interesting, look at elder scrolls or real life. So i guess i prefer expansion not retcon

[@beatleblev]

Everyone wants to leave their mark. I'm not into it, but there are some who like the properties they love to reflect their politics and cultural views. D&D is just responding to this. I don't play 5th ed regularly anyway (only with my nephew) so none of these changes affect me or my games. I will say that there have been good drow since their inception. They are rare, but anomalies do occur in the chaos that the Spider Queen prefers. The first depicted good Drow is Nilonim, who you meet in a cage waiting his turn to be Lolth's next meal. The final line that describes him is: "He has a slight but terrible tendency towards good deeds." Drow societies don't have good Drow the way Iran doesn't have gay people. Because, they kill them when they find them. Drizz't was special in that he was good and survived not just because he was good. I certainly don't want WotC to retcon Lolth. She has been a staple of Chaos and Evil for decades. The retcon seems unnecessary to me and more about creators wanting to add to someone else's work rather than create their own world that reflect their own cultural and political aesthetics.

[@Hey-Its-Dingo]

Lolth is still very much evil and a vile goddess. You gotta remember, she STILL enslaved an entire region of Drow population, this doesn't change any of that. It just further highlights what was already there.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

@@Hey-Its-Dingo Indeed, but if only the people of Menzoberranzan worship Lolth, then she got a big downgrade in the Deity hierarchy

[@MandalorSkyrd]

I agree. But I think it's more than just "wanting to leave a trace" that sorta the problem, it's that they seem to do it in the most lazy way possible

[@Arvaniz]

Great. Wizards is making all these changes to all the settings, so that people "Aren't judged by the color of their skin, or their appearance overall"... and now they come with the idea of drow with the mark of "It's alright to kill me". Great job of treating the players like 5-year olds.

[@andyenglish4303]

Political and social justice issues have been part of D&D for decades, ever since the game evolved away from simple dungeon crawls into a storytelling medium. You can't have an entire race of dark skinned people whose default setting is 'evil' in a product that became popular in 1980s America and make it *not* political; even if there was no racist intent, that doesn't mean there was no harm. Hell, literal neonazis haved used Orc stat penalties as a model for how they explain intelligent black people. The fact is that D&D's popularity surge over the past 7 years has just brought attention to things that were always in the game, and since WOTC and Hasbro want money from as many people as possible they're going to put in at least some small effort to change those things. Acting like the company is taking away your toys when they're in fact just adding new elements to a story--elements you're free to ignore--is in fact quite childish. It's saying your own comfort with the story that existed before now is more important than any psychological harm those aspects may have caused inadvertently with the notion that dark skin is a sign of evil.

[@override367]

@@andyenglish4303 Neonazis use descriptors that are also descriptors for orcs, I'm unaware of neonazis using "wealthy, well educated, Machiavellian, powerful, beautiful, artistic, deceitful" as their descriptors for any group of minorities The lore is already full of good drow you dingbat, the only reason they're making new ones instead of strengthening and embolding the existing ones is because they are hacks that haven't read the lore. They were put in there to correct the dire message that short, pointy eared, red eyed, coal colored people arent' evil

[@redwolf344]

@@andyenglish4303 I feel like you are only focused on the look of the people not the lore. The drow aren't evil because they have dark skin they're evil because the majority worships an evil deity. Saying that a society can't be evil just because of the race of people is ignorant. It's not the race of the drow that causes the hatred it's the fact that most of them worship Lloth. If we look at the lore good drow have been killed for being good. So most of the drow society would be evil. The fact that the lore already states there are good drow make the point of an "entire race of dark skinned people are default evil" redundant. Being hyper-fixated on the skin color of the drow will make you over look the actual lore of them. There are drow that worship good deities and are good.

[@andyenglish4303]

@@redwolf344 I know all of that that, but it isn't immediately apparent from the lore you'll find in 5E player books and monster manuals--most of the lore you're referring to is from previous editions and from the novels. To the average newbie, the drow are a race of dark skinned people with an evil society and those two details are fundamentally tied together. The nuance is something you have to dig for. The retcons here don't erase that nuance in Menzo society, but they add a very broad-strokes and visible alternative option that makes the contrast between evil drow as a society and evil drow as a race much more stark. Whether these new drow societies are worth a damn, though... well we'll see.

[@redwolf344]

@@andyenglish4303 I've always thought that the contrast was pretty obvious. In the players hand book it literally says that they were banished for following an evil deity and gives lore on Drizzt saying that he is a model for the drow who want to turn away from there evil society. It's right on page 24. So it's pretty obvious that good drow have always existed and have been even helped people. So reconning the lore to do something that's already been done is pretty pointless.

[@JuriusDoctor]

That's some BS right there. The more they've taken this from the hands of Ed, the more I dislike the Forgotten Realms WotC has been creating. Starting with the Spellplague.

[@magicscot]

For the most part, I think I actually like it. I’ve always gone with the concept that for the most part, evil races were evil because of their societies and deities. I’m not surprised that there are other hidden drow besides Eilistraee worshipers. I'd like to see more fleshed out for Eilistraee, but I like this ... except for the visible Mark of Lloth.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

Personally I've just always had small colonies of peaceful drow (not many but afew). The reason is I like to encourage my players to think before killing an enemy so I don't have any humaniods be universally evil. I've even had peaceful gnolls who managed to severed their connect from their demon lord and live a peaceful (but painful) existence.

[@MandalorSkyrd]

I'd say, with some explanation why they aren't like the others (especially for the Gnolls, damn) it can easily work, and in my opinion it's a nice touch.

[@thesonofdormammu5475]

I tried doing that but my players accused me of just trying to get the first shot. So I stopped. Upon further reflection, I decided that packs/villages of good aligned "evil" creatures doesn't really work. EVENTUALLY someone is going to find that group or village and kill them. And not just the humans/dwarves/elves, you would also have to worry about orcs/goblins and especially other gnolls.

[@patrickdees5256]

I mean Eilistraee already exists, so we already know good drow exist. The marking part makes the most sense but I'm indifferent to the new drow given to us.

[@silver4831]

But the PC idiots who are making these changes don't. It's literally people with no interest in the game making changes for political reasons...

[@patrickdees5256]

@@silver4831 which is annoying! I mean oh my goodness. The whole point of the drow is, evil aligned drows are the Majority, and good aligned drows are the Minority.

[@riftie7681]

I hate what has become of forgotten realms, the only novels we have is Salvatores (who I do think is awesome) but he wont move beyond his companions and let them die and now they are retconning the drow lore just to be even more like drizzt. Its a shame.

[@scruffypuppet8633]

Moonshae books are good! And i know its not forgotten realms but... god I want a dragonlance revival or movie or game... Raistlin has been forgotten about for far too long!

[@michaelwolf8690]

Is it? If Salvatore couldn't write a relatable character within the lore of the Drow then maybe that signals some real issues that needed to be addressed in the lore.

[@scruffypuppet8633]

Read azure bonds, its fucking amazing, Dragonbait and alias are some of the coolest D&D heroes in the entirety of forgotten realms.

[@jondw]

5:12 if there were physical markings based on your favor with lolth it would make the claim that the one who lost favor is usually the last to know seem abit... odd

[@herbreisig553]

Easy solution to the Frankenstein's monster of Faerun: play in Eberron!

[@Ragitsu]

Or, you know, use old _Forgotten Realms_ material; there's plenty of old gold.

[@MedievalFantasyTV]

I prefer to play on a world of my own creation, so WOTC can never truly mess up the lore.

[@cameronpearce5943]

So knowing what little I know at the moment, I love the idea that maybe Eilistraee has been building these communities of free Drow since their defection to Lolth. She is the spider queen's daughter after all, and I'd love it if she was using her powers of scheming for good. Like, not even just one community of free Drow, but two that are isolated from eachother so that if one falls then the other will still be safe.

[@nicolaezenoaga9756]

Fingers crossed that that's going to happen in the end!

[@override367]

That makes absolutely no sense, there's an Eilistraee enclave in the field ward of Waterdeep, they don't hide from the world. They've probably invented new gods, or made the new drow Atheists because nobody can wrap their minds around the idea of a fictional universe where gods are real anymore. Nobody at Wizards reads or cares about the lore anymore

[@evanwhite5704]

I love that idea

[@MandalorSkyrd]

From what I understood of the Dragon+ article, it seems to other "Drow" elves never ever served Lolth (for that matter it seems they never went in the Underdark), they just so happen to also be called "Drow". I supposed they just thought that Drow = Dark Elves, Drow were also called Dark Elves before the all Lolth thing so all Dark Elves are Drow

[@Malvisk]

Facial markings, subraces of drow are both new lore.

[@MaleusMaleficarum]

... yeah.. great.. mark the Drow it is ok to kill on sight.. with white tattoos. How long did that take to come up with?

[@elilevinger5981]

@@MaleusMaleficarum the white tattoos looks like a cruel joke as you cant see them on your self very easy and its help your enemy's to find you in the dark

[@joemamajoastar8708]

@@elilevinger5981 that's a pretty cool idea actually

[@silver4831]

@@MaleusMaleficarum "Lets make a secret group away from the other drow! Oh I know lets put clear marks on ourselves to make us stand out." derp.

[@aaronsummers2292]

I am more sceptical... The poem wasn't lore acurate (however it was amazing), and poor drizzt has escaped the underdark twice, why does he have to go back?.. I could probably swallow this pill if they bring in the other Drow pantheon ( Veron, Eilistraee, and Ghaunaduar).

[@splayedoutcat3153]

To be completely honest, I'm not a fan of this change. It makes Eilistraee sacrificing her position on the elven pantheon to save the Drow from Lolth's iron grip seem pointless. They could have expanded on her lore instead and it would have fit into the story of the Forgotten Realms much better than the way they went about it.

[@bobalmond8257]

There has been this redemption cycle for drow. In the books. The Daughter of the Drow is about lady drow that tries to free herself from Lloth. Also series War of the Drow has several factions of Drow. The premise in the series is that Lloth is doing a reset and many folks try to profit from her absence. Both these sets of books mention Eilistraee a GOOD drow goddess and her followers. They war books mention sects of male Drow clerics of gods. First I ever heard of any others too.

[@zoltanwolfe1260]

Not entirely sure I like it. I feel like I need to hear more. If Eilistraee is involved it might be cool.

[@zoltanwolfe1260]

@@erad3035 ah yes, someone so insecure in themselves that they feel panicked when a their favorite game changes. Why do you care if a imaginary elf can be from more than one place in an imaginary world.

[@zincfellow]

@@erad3035 who cares where the changes come from? It will make the game more enjoyable for some people when those people include those changes. It shouldn’t affect the people who DON’T like those changes, since they don’t have to incorporate them into their worlds. I’m unaware of any WotC officers that will patrol game tables to ensure everyone is playing with the same rules and cannon. It shouldn’t be a problem for anyone.

[@upstatebrian3726]

They are going off the rails.. There is so much more to the Realms than just the Drow and by chasing the all holy dollar we are going to watch what makes the Realms great.. diminished. It's depth and diversity. It all goes back to the novels.. More than just the campaign guides and player handbooks ect. It is and always was the novels that spoke the various wonderful aspects of The Forgotten Realms that we all love.. Into existence.

[@cowpercoles1194]

It's become hip to dunk on Gary Gygax recently as a "patriarchal racist white male" for Woke points. He invented the Drow in his Greyhawk campaign world, then they were ported into the FR. Naturally the sensitivity readers WOTC hired are claiming that because a "racist sexist" invented them, they must be racist and sexist, and therefore must be changed to "purify" them.

[@BlackLotus30]

Meh, i'll have to see on this so far I am not fond of it because it cheapen the few good Drow that escaped the Underdark. I don't think this lead to 6ed because there is no need for 6ed yet. 5e is their most successfull edition so far and i don't think they want to rock the boat. I do wish we would get beyond 20 lvl adventure with prestige class tought.

[@DaDunge]

I disagree this means people can play Drow who aren't Drizzt clones.

[@vvinterwulf]

@@DaDunge every race is converging to be the same, wotc is step by step removing diversity from the game, meaning everything feels the same.

[@DaDunge]

@@vvinterwulf Except no diversity has been removed. The Drow as they were still exist. They just have some cousin civilisations now. That's adding not removing.

[@vvinterwulf]

@@DaDunge i am talking here about the trend. Tasha's, this, the thing with orcs, so on. I am not against adding stuff and i am no grognar that treats this as sacred. Hell i am a black kid from 3rd world country. But it's obvious how they are making slowly removing diversity making everything just the same. Like classes in 4e. All classes were healers, tanks, dps.

[@DaDunge]

@@vvinterwulf I would say the classes are less diverse now. Now everyone is trying to DPS and every class is basiclaly judged on how well it DPSs. Don't know what who you are have to do with anything but thanks for sharing. And I don't see any trend in reducing diversity. In fact all they are doing is exploring faction they previously haven't. Whoch adds rather than removes to the fabric of their universe. Consider another franchise who made a similar change. the change from Warcraft 2 to warcraft 3. Are you seriously arguing you think that diversity was reduced by giving the orcs shamanistic roots and an ongoing struggle between these two aspects of their culture?

[@franksteele2262]

Bauldur's Gate 2 example of quest of the Silver Dragon one drow had Ellistre goddess secretly not loth and confesses to the protagonist then "hides in the shadows" hoping to eventially see the moon of his true goddess.

[@Clonetrooper8983]

The entire reason Drow are Drow is because they were corrupted. Saying that they are uncorrupted drow is like that time the Ice King said he was a widower cause he is single, thats not how that works and is stupid.

[@troffle]

I can't remember the last time I ever wished so strongly that KZbin had heart/love reacts.