WOTM: Is Alex O'Connor Gaslighting Us?

Would Alex O'Connor really love for Christianity to be true?
For ad-free videos, become a patron at...
/ mrdeity
For one-time donations...
venmo.com/Brian...
or simply @BrianKeithDalton on the Venmo app
paypal.me/MrDeity
Or use the tip jar on my channel page:
/ misterdeity
Other links...
www.skeptic.com

[@misterdeity]

This is NOT... I repeat... this is NOT another video about Alex O'Connor's interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Rather, it's about his constant public declarations regarding his desire to be a Christian, and for Christianity to be true... as he did in fact once again state in his interview with Ayaan. But I swear in Hitchens' Holy name, this video is NOT about that interview. I promise!!!

[@AmberAmber]

Yeah - im sick of how his fans dogpile on Pro Equality Atheists. TY Brainy Brian!!! ★ALSO★ Please Brian - IF you will/can? Would you please kindly address EMs accelerationist rcist rhetoric? I have receipts which indicate hes hoping the world Burns with DT & expects it will under DT - he said he's rich enough to wait it out & then will repop earth as "White adam". TY either way - I'm contacting all those with a platform & especially those who i deeply respect - who also have a platform. Cos if his motives arent called out? He may achieve at least the 1st part💔

[@misterdeity]

​@@AmberAmber I can't afford to do any more political stuff for a while, either financially or emotionally. I always take a big financial hit, but this time I'm emotionally out of gas as well. Hope you'll understand. #selfcare

[@tracewallace23]

Maybe, 🤔 Alex was just trying to get laid #ChristianVixen 🤷🏻‍♂️😏

[@richardbruning]

@@misterdeitypolitics? Politics?! We don’t need no steekin politics! Spare yourself, Bri.

[@jonc4403]

@@misterdeity I heard that. I've been avoiding the news for months now, every time I fail to do that it gets worse.

[@tabularasa0606]

I think it's just a debate tactic, to not scare of his opponents, Just to get rid of the "You hate god" narrative.

[@chinkasuyaro8983]

I have a feeling your partly right ;)- A desire to be able to have less contentious conversations with more notable opponents might have subconsciously softened his rhetoric when it comes to debating Xtians. Hopefully it's not fully intentional. That would be pretty sleazy.

[@valtokic7393]

I hope this is true.

[@rubif5797]

I think he is honest, but won't be convinced any time soon. That is my guess.

[@idesel]

But saying he would love for it to be true is a bridge 93 billion lightyears too far. It's dishonest if he doesn't mean it. One of the reasons we think Christianity isn't true it because of the very nature of its claims, there are really horrible ones, if Alex means he want all this to be true I'm more than confused.

[@dennisdavis6943]

He has specifically stated that he is trying to be a non-resistant non-believer to show that he is serious and to get around the "God won't reveal himself to someone who doesn't want him" argument.

[@ms.nettimusic6429]

In line with other comments, I'm grateful to you for pointing this out. I've been deeply disappointed by many of O'Connor's recent comments and expressed sentiments regarding Christianity, "wokeness" and cancel culture.

[@SupremeScientist]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Ever since he rebranded his channel and started interviewing more theists, it's gotten weird. Watching Alex O’Connor slowly warm up to theism is like watching a hardcore vegan start asking ‘What if I just smelled the bacon?’ 😂😂

[@_S0me__0ne]

Perhaps what he wants is secular Christianity. Unitarian Universalism?

[@PurpleRhymesWithOrange]

Are you aware of the irony there since he had been a long time vegan but has to eat meat to maintain his health?

[@someguy2249]

​@@PurpleRhymesWithOrange it was more about making his diet more convenient with the amount he travels.

[@mikean7074]

Funny things starts to happen when you stop eating Corpses. Eventually, your gut microbiome in your body adjusts wanting that stuff and eventually it gets to the point where most meat smells gross, last time I smelled bacon it made me gag

[@mikean7074]

​@@PurpleRhymesWithOrange He actually wasn't a vegan all that long, maybe a year. Also, he didn't start eating me again for his health, he never saw advice from people who have been doing this is a hell of a lot longer than him and could have shown him where he was going wrong. He started eating meat again because he wanted to. Literally nobody needs to eat meat for health reasons.

[@OldNewsIsGoodNews]

2:20-ish - I mean ... he's also the *him* of the New Testament. I do tend to get tired of people being like "But look at the Old Testament, though!" when Jeezy-boy was not only more than willing to endorse the nastier ideas of the Tanakh (and hint: got some of his nicer ideas from there, too), but *also* really got into the Hell idea (very much a New Testament thing); talked about how he came not in peace but with a sword; and loved to prattle on about setting family members against each other. All of those are *not* from the "Jewy" parts of the Christian books, but rather from the Christian originals.

[@misterdeity]

Great points!!! ❤

[@LM-jz9vh]

Exactly. *Why Jesus?* Jesus has been held in high regard by Christians and non-Christians alike. Regardless of whether he existed in history, or whether he was divine, many have asserted that the New Testament Christ character was the highest example of moral living. Many believe that his teachings, if truly understood and followed, would make this a better world. Is this true? Does Jesus merit the widespread adoration he has received? Let’s look at what he said and did. *Was Jesus Peaceable And Compassionate?* The birth of Jesus was heralded with “Peace on Earth,” yet Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36) “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:27. In a parable, but spoken of favorably.) The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition was based on the words of Jesus: “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6) Jesus looked at his critics “with anger” (Mark 3:5), and attacked merchants with a whip (John 2:15). He showed his respect for life by drowning innocent animals (Matthew 8:32). He refused to heal a sick child until he was pressured by the mother (Matthew 15:22-28). The most revealing aspect of his character was his promotion of eternal torment. “The Son of man [Jesus himself] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42) “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” (Mark 9:43) **Is this nice? Is it exemplary to make your point with threats of violence? Is hell a kind, peaceful idea?** *Did Jesus Promote “Family Values”?* “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) “I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36) When one of his disciples requested time off for his father’s funeral, Jesus rebuked him: “Let the dead bury their dead.” (Matthew 8:22) Jesus never used the word “family.” He never married or fathered children. To his own mother, he said, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” (John 2:4) *What Were His Views On Equality And Social Justice?* Jesus encouraged the beating of slaves: “And that servant [slave], which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luke 12:47) He never denounced servitude, incorporating the master-slave relationship into many of his parables. He did nothing to alleviate poverty. Rather than sell some expensive ointment to help the poor, Jesus wasted it on himself, saying, “Ye have the poor with you always.” (Mark 14:3-7) No women were chosen as disciples or invited to the Last Supper. *What Moral Advice Did Jesus Give?* “There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matthew 19:12) Some believers, including church father Origen, took this verse literally and castrated themselves. Even metaphorically, this advice is in poor taste. If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context). Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32) Don’t plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34) Don’t save money. (Matthew 6:19-20) Don’t become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25) Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33) Don’t work to obtain food. (John 6:27) Don’t have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28) Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11) Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16) Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26) If someone steals from you, don’t try to get it back. (Luke 6:30) If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39) If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40) If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41) If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42) Is this wise? Is this what you would teach your children? *Was Jesus Reliable?* Jesus told his disciples that they would not die before his second coming: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). “Behold, I come quickly.” (Revelation 3:11) It’s been 2,000 years, and believers are still waiting for his “quick” return. He mistakenly claimed that the mustard seed is “the least of all seeds” (Matt. 13:32), and that salt could “lose its savour” (Matthew 5:13). Jesus said that whoever calls somebody a “fool” shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22), yet he called people “fools” himself (Matthew 23:17). Regarding his own truthfulness, Jesus gave two conflicting opinions: “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31), and “Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true” (John 8:14). *Was Jesus A Good Example?* He irrationally cursed a fig tree for being fruitless out of season (Matthew 21:18-19, and Mark 11:13-14). He broke the law by stealing corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23), and he encouraged his disciples to take a horse without asking permission (Matthew 21). The “humble” Jesus said that he was “greater than the temple” (Matt 12:6), “greater than Jonah” (Matthew 12:41), and “greater than Solomon” (Matthew 12:42). He appeared to suffer from a dictator’s “paranoia” when he said, “He that is not with me is against me” (Matthew 12:30). Why Jesus? Although other verses can be cited that portray Jesus in a different light, they do not erase the disturbing side of his character. The conflicting passages, however, prove that the New Testament is contradictory. The “Golden Rule” had been said many times by earlier religious leaders. (Confucius: “Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you.”) “Turn the other cheek” encourages victims to invite further violence. “Love thy neighbor” applied only to fellow believers. (Neither the Jews nor Jesus showed much love to foreign religions). A few of the Beatitudes (“Blessed are the peacemakers”) are acceptable, but they are all conditions of future reward, not based on respect for human life or values. *On the whole, Jesus said little that was worthwhile. He introduced nothing new to ethics (except hell). He instituted no social programs. Being “omniscient,” he could have shared some useful science or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of such things (as if his character were merely the invention of writers stuck in the first century).*

[@Trotoloko]

Not only that, but J-boy was all about "You'll see how I will come back and kill all those motherfoockers!" "But what did they do, Jesus?" "NOT OBEYING ME!!!!!"

[@GameTimeWhy]

Yeah I've brought that up about hell too. It didn't exist until jesus created it.

[@ApPersonaNonGrata]

I just posted a clip for this conversation; on my "Community" tab. It's a very short clip from Christopher Hitchens. I called it "Why we should not trust Alex O'Connor".

[@JoeBorrello]

Maybe he wants the idea of seeing loved ones in the afterlife to be true. It is compelling. The rest of christianity sucks. But of course, the more you WANT something to be true the more skeptical you should be.

[@ZER0--]

The thing about wanting to see your loved ones is that they might not want to see you. Not in a bad way, but they've probably moved on. Maybe a new family and friends.

[@toastcrunch9387]

But he knows that canonically they're supposed to be suffering forever. If you had to pick and choose theologies, why would you *want* this particular one to be true when there's others that don't condemn you just for existing? It just doesn't make any sense unless you're already predisposed to particular ideas unfairly, at which point the judgement is effectively moot.

[@SapientCephalopod]

My mother is a devout Christian, as was my father. My mother remarried a Christian minister who's devout wife had also passed. Heaven is going to be awkward unless there is some sort of divine swingers club going on up there.

[@SlyPearTree]

Seeing loved one in the afterlife is only compelling if there is an afterlife, if one stop existing then one can't miss their loved ones.

[@juanausensi499]

@@SlyPearTree Also, everybody that gets to heaven is 100% perfectly happy, so it's not possible to miss a beloved one, or care if that beloved love is roasting in hell

[@BCole-bj4lv]

Great "call out". He should answer this one. I was a Christian and the only thing I miss is the comradery and friendships. We'd have bowling and pizza night, sometimes a game night and if you moved or needed a hand, church friends would gladly help. That was nice. I have no "group" anymore.

[@TheRealBrit]

@@BCole-bj4lv my recommendation is look for a board game/ttrpg group near you and join. Or start one yourself if none are around/open.

[@andrewstrongman305]

That's on you though. Real-world friends are harder to come by, but do your best to look after them and they will do their best to look after you in turn. Consider that your Christian 'friends' were what Aussies call 'Fair Weather Friends' - not real friends. Look around, there are most likely bowling teams who have little/no interest in religion, but they probably love 'bowling and pizza' or game nights, etc. If you are fortunate enough to live in a place with various ethnic restaurants, organise your work/social/sporting group to visit them. One week it might be pizza, the next, Chinese, Thai, Mexican, etc, etc. You don't have to be the Life of the Party, just interested and active.

[@johnferry7778]

@@andrewstrongman305 👆What he said.

[@jonnawyatt]

Comradery and friendships with people who kicked you out of their group because you realised that the man-made being who is violent, spiteful and hateful, doesn't exist. Sad.

[@crankycascadian]

I look forward to Alex's answer.

[@Limited_Light]

You and several others.

[@mads5000]

Ohhh daim, he is about to convert to Christianity, Ayaan has showed him the way and the light🙏⛪

[@whatcanisay555]

he wouldn't. i was even surprised he made a vid on Wes huff and his word-by-word claim. his channel has outgrown the atheist circle (if you get me). now he have to cater to the needs and desires of believer audience. the conversation wis Ayan shows the growth of his non-atheism viewership.

[@ProfessorPinkle]

​@@whatcanisay555He just isn't an edgey atheist. Some of us grow out of our teenage years.

[@bibaolaitan5189]

Me too. Somebody else has subtely accused him of this.

[@brianmorgan7703]

What I want to know is why did Alex treat Ayaan with kid gloves, never challenging her on anything? Yet he skewered Dinesh on a pike and roasted him alive for good measure. He gave no ground to him, yet with Ayaan he gave ground like Russians fighting Napoleon

[@matthewgagnon9426]

Skewering Dinesh D'souza is always morally correct.

[@MetaphorUB]

@@brianmorgan7703 To be clear, I agree I think he missed an opportunity to push her harder on her conversion, which we all agree looks pretty dodgy, but there is very much a difference between attending a forum to debate an opponent and inviting someone on to your own show for a conversation. I’m willing to cut him a bit of slack for the latter. It can be hard to get valuable access if you’re known for publicly destroying guests on your show. But yes, I too would have appreciated more pushback in that interview.

[@richardbruning]

@@MetaphorUBwell, put. If he’s sees the show in a different light than public debates, fine. Plus, she looked like she could get blown over by a stiff wind.

[@brianmorgan7703]

@MetaphorUB I wasn't expecting him to wreck her like he did Dinesh, but he never even tried to challenge her. It was more softball interview than conversation though. She was playing tennis without a net and he only lobbed it back.

[@MetaphorUB]

@ Yeah, I mean, that’s fair.

[@trevorlambert4226]

It is indeed perplexing. When someone says they wish Christianity was true, normally we can assume they mean just the positive bits, because that's what's emphasized in the mainstream. But as you say, Alex should be aware of the full implications of such a wish.

[@rathraven1313]

Alex never did understand context.

[@Professor_Pink]

Moronic claim. Alex is completely aware of those ideas in the Bible. He has criticized theists and pointed them out. But that isn't the only Christianity. There are plenty of more moral versions. Stop strawmanning Christianity and deciding there is only one form of it and it's the worst form.

[@Poly_atheist]

@@Professor_Pink what he said

[@nietzschescodes]

Alex is an atheist, as he was a vegan...

[@Grim_Beard]

Christianity being true would be utterly horrifying. I find it hard to believe that Alex would actually 'love' for it to be true.

[@misterdeity]

We are on the same page! ❤

[@johngavin1175]

I dont believe him at all. But why would he say such a thing?

[@qlddave]

I'm just wondering how after 18 years you manage to look younger. It's a miracle!

[@AConnorDN38416]

I think he says that because he’s afraid of death. But Im personally not convinced that heaven wouldn’t actually be a fate far worse than death if it were to exist. An eternity of worshiping at the omnipresent feet of some being that is petty enough to desire my worship sounds pretty horrific.

[@5678efgh3]

Why does he want Christianity in particular to be true... why not other religions? Seems that it's another Richard Dawkins "cultural Christian" thing

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

"I wish I could believe" is like saying "I wish I was ignorant enough for bliss."😂

[@Kohout33]

@@Purpleturtlehurtler Yes, and I'm not sure it is a dishonest confession. Whether we like it or not, Christianity was designed to be appealing, to alleviate the anxiety of life, our primal fears, etc.

[@nicolasandre9886]

Saying you'd be happy if christianity was true is something I would expect to hear from anyone who hasn't really spent time to think about what it implies. Or a doubting christian of course.

[@golach420]

Alex is too vanilla. You can't tell which side he is on sometimes. He lets the apologists off with way too much.

[@misterdeity]

And sometimes he destroys them. #Dinesh. That’s why I want this clarification.

[@juanausensi499]

He's a practitioner of the soft jutsu. Sometimes is the right approach.

[@AlexanderNunn-g1r]

On his podcast or in that style of conversation, he shows great respect and patience. You can make the argument he shouldn't, but he wouldn't be touted by people like Sean McDowell as some poster boy. That would lose him exposure to many Christians. Can you imagine what apologists will have to deal with when Alex dies an atheist despite all this? He is living that bit he speaks about non resistant belief. So if he doesn't find God in his life, he's been forsaken. In a debate format he spanks people while remaining calm and seen as the better man for it. I try to copy him in interactions and can for a time, but I inevitably just get pissed off. Is that from religious trauma or am I just not as wise?

[@riffhammeron]

In his recent interview with Rain Wilson, he said, "We know Jesus existed and we know he died on the cross." We don't, Alex.

[@sergiosatelite467]

I always thought Alex used that as a preemptively disarming strategy: if I say I’d love for Christianity to be true, you can’t acuse me of rejecting it out of rebellion. So, let’s concentrate on why I think it’s false. But maybe I’m being too guilty of Davidsonian charity?

[@jimbakes2782]

I completely agree. But in addition, wouldn't it actually be a relief if all the tragic and horrible nonsense that happens was actually worth it because there's some kind of perfect afterlife?

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

What's Davidsonian charity? I looked it up. It puts me in mind of Lee's Elucidation. A finite number of words must be made to represent an infinite number of things and possibilities. Indeed, a finite number of words is being used to represent an infinite number of things and possibilities. Language Habits in Human Affairs, Irving J. Lee, 1942.

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

​@@jimbakes2782 "...perfect afterlife"---or hell.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@jimbakes2782 No, because if you enjoy a perfect afterlife knowing people are suffering, it is automatically not perfect. And if you don't know, that makes the person creating that afterlife a monster, and you are just a prisoner in a gilded cage.

[@jimbakes2782]

@littlebitofhope1489 I think you're right in principle. Though people on this planet who are born into incredibly privileged situations seem not to let the fact that others are suffering bother them too much.

[@5678efgh3]

I've known that o'Connor had his perception of theism all wrong from the moment I heard him say that if he's convinced that the Christian god exists he will "worship" him... how does that make any sense considering all the messed up things he's supposedly done in the bible? Just because something exists doesn't mean to worship it He's been going down the warming up to theism path for years now.

[@naughtalot]

I tried following alex a while back, but he only ever seems to collaborate with right wingers, and I've seen how that story ends.

[@brodie2711]

Can you even imagine Alex turning to the dark side because like many of us atheists he's read much of the old and new testament and he's found it wanting.

[@kellydalstok8900]

With the ex-catholics, which is what Alex is, I’ve seen over the years, their religion is rooted very deeply. The mere sight of a saint’s statue made one exclaim: that was my mother’s favourite saint! Her mother was named after the saint and that’s why it felt special to her, not because is a particularly special saint, but my former friend acted as though she still really believed in saints. The worship of saints seems to have been adopted straight from ancient Rome’s multiple saints tradition. Catholicism is polytheism pretending to be monotheism.

[@toastcrunch9387]

@@kellydalstok8900 to be fair, it's still all polytheism, in some sense. At least, it started that way before the trimming of outside ideas and the readjustment of internal ones. The earlier sects and even judaism made reference/implicated other gods, you were just supposed to worship this specific one the most, but eventually yahweh was morphed and flanderized into what we're more familiar with today.

[@Trotoloko]

​@@kellydalstok8900Catholics are masters at propaganda and indoctrination to a point Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses feel like complete noobs. Which they are. Once you monopolize emotions and art, you can literally do whatever you please with society, and even mascarade as "secular" festivities. This is why I advocate for more pre-Christian imaginery. Also, his video calling "bad anti-theist propaganda" from the Soviet Era is a complete bullshit. You don't need to be socialist to see the Soviets were right about religion.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@toastcrunch9387 How can it be polytheism when they have ONE god? I mean they divide that god into three parts, but it's still only one god. Just because they say Jesus and god are two different beings, but one god......where is the issue with that? One and three are the same thing, right???? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[@toastcrunch9387]

@ I don't even know where they get 3 of the beings of the "trinity", since two of them seem to be the same thing, and then there's jesus, and no matter how you contextualize his position, it sucks.

[@waitWAID]

I'd love to hear Alex addressing this. I've seen him present himself as a non-resistant non-believer, and while the Christianity part is highly conflictive with morality, I think he goes into his point with an implicit agreement/acceptance with his interlocutors that their religious believes and experiences are wonderful and perfect, and that he'd love that to be true, but he has to accept reality instead.

[@dustystarr2297]

I'm actually really glad you called this out because I'm in the same boat as you in regards to this.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Yes, Alex has given me a creep vibe for a while now.

[@dustystarr2297]

@@littlebitofhope1489 I wouldn't say anything "creepy" I just want clarity as to what he means by the statement.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@dustystarr2297 I think it's the change I find creepy. It just seems manipulative and not quite honest.

[@garethbeare8741]

Alex nowadays wishes to beat the dead horse for some reason. Fair enough. I don't find myself wishing for implausible entities to exist myself, Alex.

[@valtokic7393]

I have become worried at his lack of science interviews and content. His position of non-resistant non-belief is very effective at probing the dialogue with believers. However, this position is seeming more and more tenuous as the years go by. Support science content and he'll do more of it!

[@whatwouldjudydo_]

Yes he also said religion is good for society , which totally floored me ..

[@HarryNicNicholas]

it's useful, i wouldn't call it good.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

It's certainly parasitized the place that regular community gatherings and belonging have in our social networks

[@jonovens7974]

@@HarryNicNicholas it is only useful for those running the con, harmful to everyone else.

[@susanwjoh0re735]

we definitely do not need your religion.

[@MrWyzdum]

It helped get us our first dictator

[@benwil6048]

I also don’t understand what’s up with his “I want god to be true”; you want this immoral selfish, …, monster to actually exist? Are you insane?

[@rathraven1313]

God is better than letting failed humans to run things.

[@andymoshi]

It's funny, as Alex O'Conner clearly knows about the evolution and origins of the bible's concepts, and of many theological ideas and deities. No one should want the mainstream Christian viewpoint and cosmology as believed to be true, it is absolutely horrific!

[@Anglomachian]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard him explain why he’d like it to be true. I’d be interested in hearing what he means

[@goldenalt3166]

I suspect that he, like Christians, thinks that Christianity is better than it looks in the Bible.

[@nietzschescodes]

Probably because he wants his degree to mean something...

[@TheQuantumWave]

I don't understand how anybody who has ever read the Bible could want it to be true. It's god is horrible. On the other hand, there's no quicker route to wealth, best-selling books, and sold-out speaking engagements than to be a "hardcore" atheist turned theist.

[@charliekowittmusic]

I have walked a similar path to Alex, so I can shed some light on this issue. I went through my anti-theist phase. I’m still an atheist. It’s simple: We all know there are Christians who do walk the walk, follow Jesus’ teachings, and use church as a vehicle for community and love. Spending time around these people will change your perspective. This happens with any group or ideology you judge from afar.

[@markhackett2302]

That would be fine, Alex can decide to play the game as he likes. But there is no option that he can rationally take that makes his platforming Aayan at all positive. At best he can be neutral, but many of the possible explanations paint him in a terrible light. Think of this: that was where Alex jumped the shark. Then think back to the genesis of that meme. Happy Days wasn't always at "jump the shark" and then one day it jumped that shark.

[@charliekowittmusic]

@ Idk I think Alex just has conversations with people he thinks are interesting/worth talking to. I understand that his platform used to be about promoting atheism. But he has clearly matured past that. He strikes me as somebody who lives to indulge his curiosity. That’s why I’ve followed him for so many years. Again, I’m an atheist. But I don’t really see atheism as anything to promote. It isn’t an ideology or philosophy in and of itself. I’m somewhat interested in opposing religious malice. Mega churches, extremists, cults, oppressive theocracies, etc. But what new thing can be said or debated about these things?

[@misterdeity]

I hope you understand how far remove that is from, “I’d love for Christianity to be true.” Those believers following Jesus, are probably equally rejecting the Jesus of scripture. They are cherry picking. If that’s what Alex wants to be true, then let him be clear about it. Otherwise, it looks like he’s longing for a genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic monster, who has created a place of eternal torment for sentient beings. That’s some pretty sick shit!

[@charliekowittmusic]

@@misterdeity Respectfully, I think you’d have to be the one cherry picking from Alex’s years of work to think that’s even a remote possibility. Alex studied theology. That means he views the Torah and the Christian Bible for what they are: Man-made attempts at relaying history, ethics, governance, story-telling, messianic myths, etc. It’s entirely possible to separate Jesus the Christ (or a vague, loving God) from the testaments, conceptually. I think that’s a fairer interpretation which lines up with his lived experience. “I wish there was a loving God ordering the universe and caring personally about me” is how I heard it.

[@markhackett2302]

@@charliekowittmusic No, it only requires "cherry picking" what Alex actually said recently. If Alex didn't mean that, then how do you know what he did?

[@Notalloldpeople]

He’s on record many times saying he wishes he could believe. I’ve been disappointed at some of his weak interviews when he lets people wander around without bringing them back to the points. His ‘interviews’ with WLG are particularly disastrous when he appears starstruck and doesn’t hold his feet to the fire.

[@markhackett2302]

"He wishes he could believe"? But he said in the clip "I want Christianity to be true", not "I want to believe (something else)".

[@Never-mind1960]

Alex may not be seeing the writing on the wall, but the money in the bank; quackery is enormously profitable. For example; That is why almost all free talk radio hosts parrot Faux News talking points. Not because they are being paid to do it now, but because they want a job at Faux because the pay is insanely high. This problem permeates all fields; promoting quackery is far more likely to make you wealthy than debunking said quackery.

[@whoviating]

I don't think it's that complicated or subtle: I believe he's referring to "Christianity" as presented by proponents - to the claims of it being a religion of compassion, love, and mercy - not to the historical reality of actual doctrine.

[@misterdeity]

But you understand that he knows better, right? You know how fierce he’s been in the face of excusegists.

[@whoviating]

​@@misterdeity Oh, I expect so. It's just that I can imagine him thinking "It'd be great if that idyllic dream of peace, love, and cooperation they claim they represent was true. I could sign onto that. It's not true, of course; it's a self-deluding fantasy and it always was, but still, it'd be nice if it was something real."

[@findsharon]

Of all the religions, he would like Christianity to be true? Ick. We can find a better deity than that. How about Dionysus?

[@mailill]

Hmmm, I think I want a Goddess if I must have a deity. Someone motherly, loving and kind - not sure who's the best. Kannon/Guanyin/Tara, perhaps? Maybe the Hindus are onto something when they let people choose freely from a million gods and goddesses?

[@INTPWill]

I've said things like this before. I wish Christianity were true because it its followers so much peace of mind. I'd love that peace of mind too, but I also care about what is true. For me, it's a specific desire for that peace of mind and maybe the community. Not a desire for specific and deplorable events to have taken place or be excused.

[@markhackett2302]

Ah, so you wish for Hell for people who are black or yellow or not christian, yes? Because, and lets not forget it, that was what Christianity was, and still is for a depressingly numerous proportion of christians.

[@MrWyzdum]

I don't love what Alex does or admire him. And when he announces his inevitable flip to irrationality, I'm not gonna be there.

[@PeteOtton]

About a year or two back, I noticed a subtle underpinning to him I couldn't quite put my finger on it but I've been watching for him to join (for want of a better term) the dark side. There are some religious people who at least talk the talk of helping humanity, Bishop Budde, Rev Ed Trevors, Fred Rodgers (sadly the late). Even the Pope seems to be mostly paying lipservice to helping the poor and oppressed, though if he really wanted to help he has the financial backing of an organization that probably rivals even the human Muskrat that bought the US Presidency.

[@AntiCitizenX]

Something about Alex has always rubbed me the wrong way, and I think you summarize it pretty well around 2:00. The dude has two degrees in theology and philosophy from Oxford. I cannot imagine a more spoiled, entitled, and privileged existence than to spend that much effort in college, just to major in two utterly useless fields, then make a living out of "respectfully" interviewing Christian fascists. It reeks of the kind of person who looks smart on paper, yet never had to work a day in his life at an actual real-world job. I could be biased, but every time I try to watch the guy I just can't finish.

[@huguesdepayens807]

None of the people he's interviewed were fascists. You don't know what fascism is.

[@misterdeity]

@@huguesdepayens807In all fairness, Christianity is fascism. So at most, you could say the previous comment was redundant. 😉

[@huguesdepayens807]

@@misterdeity That makes no sense. The chariteristics of fascism are nationalism, socialism, and irredentism. How does that apply to Christianity? How can someone he facist if they put Christianity or jesus above the nation and its people?

[@markhackett2302]

@@huguesdepayens807 "The chariteristics of fascism are nationalism, socialism, and irredentism" Well, talking of something that makes no sense. Sure, Jesus in several areas would be a "long haired hippy" but go look at Prosperity Preachers or what is the Christian Nationalist in the USA. The characteristics of facism isn't socialism, this is why among the first residents of the German Concentration camps were socialists.

[@Grim_Beard]

@@huguesdepayens807 Below is a list of the 14 characteristics of fascism, as described by Umberto Eco. Which of them do you think _doesn't_ apply to Christianity? 1) The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.” 2) The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.” 3) The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.” 4) Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.” 5) Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.” 6) Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.” 7) The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.” 8) The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” 9) Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.” 10) Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.” 11) Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.” 12) Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.” 13) Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.” 14) Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

[@walshmt84]

It seems clearly to be a debate tactic to me. Start from a position of agreement, or in this case "I'd like to agree with you." Christians hold their beliefs because of what feels good about their religion. They fear death, so the promise of an afterlife feels good. They believe they are broken and sinful (because of the religions belief), so believing they can be forgiven feels good. I think we can all see the bits about Christianity that make people feel good. Alex saying, "I'd love to be a Christian," to me, appears to just acknowledge that. It's like saying, "Look I can see how Christianity could make you feel good, I'd love to feel good too." And that puts you on an equal footing with your interlocutor. And then you can say, "but here's all the reasons why I can't be." It's just a way to bring up objections without attacking the individual. It's a good tactic and doesn't mean Alex wants the god of the bible to be true.

[@markhackett2302]

That wasn't Christianity, then, but Alex said it was.

[@sohu86x]

100% he will convert.

[@cthellis]

“Recent Christian con….vert”😝

[@Jcs57]

Actually I wouldn’t be at all surprised if down the road we see her take a shot a Buddhism. I don’t think she’s looking for answers as much as she appears to be looking for help.

[@gerritvalkering1068]

I always thought it to mean that the modern Christian idea of an all loving go who truly is interested in you and wants what's best for you and has the power to make it happen, would be wonderful. I'd love for that to be true. However: 1: That god is incompatible with scripture 2: That god is incompatible with other (usually) Christian ideas that aren't directly related to scripture 3: Even assuming the scriptures and other people's interpretations are just wrong, that god doesn't seem to exist. And unlike some people but, I assume, like Alex, I need something more than just wanting it to be true

[@keisukekun86]

Given that Alex has truly immersed himself in Christian culture (how else are you gonna get those degrees lol), I have to imagine that when he says "I wish Christianity were true" what he means is he wishes that the version of Christianity held by most Christians is true. That is, the version where there's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god who loves you and wants to have a relationship with you, and really that's it - just a simple wish for divine reassurance and the sense of comfort and peace that provides. I don't think Alex ever WILL become a Christian however, as he's intensely aware of all the things (in the Bible and otherwise) that preclude that being true.

[@misterdeity]

Then that’s what he should say, right? Clarity in one’s speech is a noble virtue.

[@Kohout33]

I think he's just lightly trolling the fundamentalcases and their sad co-dependency on the myth of Big Daddy & Son taking care of us so we don't have to do our own thinking.

[@iwilldi]

In a sad way Alex is truthfull. He is stuck with christianity, but cannot agree. So either he quits his counter apologetics and finds a new job or hobby or he becomes a christian. So he is saying that he is too strong to be defeated and yet too weak to walk away and do something else.

[@Kohout33]

@@iwilldi can you please explain the "stuck with christianity"? As in, like, how we are all stuck with it? Or are you saying he is hopelessly obsessed and has OCD - Obsessive Christianity Disorder?

[@HeirOfNothingInParticular]

@@Kohout33 It’s what he’s educated in.

[@tonybanks1035]

not everyone shares your insecurities

[@iwilldi]

@@Kohout33 You know, i have a certain conception of evangelising atheists. It's not how i want to spend my life. So yes OCD may describe it well.

[@asapjolz]

As with any KZbinr worth their commercial salt, Alex simply wants to walk that fuzzy line of clicks from both sides of the aisle. Dishonest from an ideological perspective, but a solid monetizing move. If confronted, he can easily weasel to either side... and the 'con'versations get longer shelf-life.

[@misterdeity]

Or maybe he’s still just a very young guy trying to figure out how the game works(?). #charity ❤

[@asapjolz]

You think so? I feel he's been in the game long enough to have production team meetings on channel-sustainability where they strategized the sh*t out of their next 3-year plan. Monetizing a brand is indeed a commercial 'game' and age of the mascot has got very little to do with its success.

[@thequantumshade1556]

I think it’s obvious that he means he wishes there was someway for him to discover and enlightenment beyond his current comprehension. It makes all of the immoral things he can’t currently accept things that he can feel good about accepting. He wishes he didn’t feel bad about anything ever like Christians, who are constantly living in their denial reality. He wishes that he could know with absolute certainty that all of his decisions are going to work out right regardless of how unsure he may be because he can just put his trust in God. He wishes that the magic the Christians claim to have keeping them on course Was able to operate in his life, and a part of that would be giving him mystical answers to all the questions you’ve currently asked. He wishes that he could believe in the promises of the Bible without feeling like they’re obviously untrue because of the contradictions that you’re talking about. It’s an internal critique to the max.

[@markhackett2302]

Well that is DEFINITELY not Christianity, then, so explain why he said it was?

[@nicholasfiala6205]

I believe when Alex says things like this, it is an expression of his position as a non-resistant non-believer. What he is likely expressing is that, while he may or may not like the actions that God has taken, knowing it is true would be some comfort in the way of filling a number of knowledge gaps that we're currently facing, as well as knowing expectations for how he should behave in order to avoid supernatural wrath.

[@djfrank68]

Maybe I'm wrong. (I usually am). But when I hear Alex repeat that, it sounds to me like he is just trying to preempt "you just want to sin" or "you have an anti supernatural bias" or whatever. Kinda like an attempt at meeting them halfway for the sake of the conversation.

[@markgordon5266]

For some odd reason I'm reminded of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense during the war in Iraq. I remember watching the press conference when it aired, and could only marvel at the Machiavellian and Orwellian genius of Rumsfeld's response to a question: "There are things we know we know, things we know we don't know, and things we don't know we don't know." I remember laughing out loud at his verbal tap dance, not realizing how much more Orwellian things would become in the present day under the Dumpster administration.

[@markgordon5266]

"Love your enemies, and btw, I'm coming back with a sword."

[@misterdeity]

The documentary on him by Errol Morris is called “The Unknown Known”!

[@dietwald]

Rumsfeld was right about that, though. He just pretended to know what he didn't know.

[@markgordon5266]

@@dietwald It's the Orwellian aspect of that whole process that made me laugh, including the combination of doublespeak and doublethink.

[@dietwald]

@markgordon5266 sure. Rumsfeld is a great example of someone using their indisputable intellectual prowess for purely malignant purposes.

[@vocal1603]

He means he would love the idea eternal life and having a loving god. Just like any other human he probably does not like the idea of non-existence. He of course does not like the rest of the BS that comes along with Christianity. He has also explained his position of religion in society is like how people feel about politics.

[@misterdeity]

That’s why I’d like some clarification. There’s a part of me that wants to live forever too, even though I know that’s silly and perhaps even horrifying. But I never want Christianity to be true. I will never stop opposing genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic assholes!

[@kevindavis5966]

While his word choices may seem counter to his stated beliefs, I believe he's attempting to soften his persona to that of a reluctant, intellectual atheist rather than an antitheist. In this way, he can potentially broaden his interview base to include more mainstream theists, who will see him as someone they might be able to reason with in a public forum, such as they can. As an interviewer tactic, I understand it, but I can see were it certainly could be off-putting to anti-theists. I don't believe we're in danger of seeing another Ayaan-like reversal in Alex.

[@misterdeity]

If you watch his debate with Dinesh, you’ll see that he can go full on anti-theist in a heartbeat! And he’s really good at it. It’s one of the reasons I’m asking the question of this video.

[@InigoMontoya-]

If one cherry picks the religion, as many do; ignoring the thin-skinned, reactionary, murderous, incestuous, psychopathic, narcissistic, genocidal, dishonest, unpleasant features of the god, and looking only at the love thy neighbor, feed the poor, heal the sick, peace, love, and walk streets of gold with everyone you love in the end parts; it IS an attractive system. Unfortunately, the way it was established doesn’t allow for the separation.

[@misterdeity]

N or is that Christianity.

[@MetaphorUB]

There are versions of Christianity that I would welcome if true, but Frank Turek’s version? Dinesh D’Souza’s version? JD Vance’s version? No, thank you. I’m good.

[@misterdeity]

Elaborate?

[@MetaphorUB]

@ Well, there are versions of Christianity that are more inclusive and seem to pay more than lip service to the actual message of Jesus, much of which appeals to me, even as an atheist. If God really did create the universe and does love us, all of us, and Hell was a misunderstanding, or improper later edition. If there was a life after death, not the commercial Christian image of perpetually playing golf in white Polo shirts, but one where we felt safe, and loved, and unbound by the concern of figuring out how to spend the next several million years. Yeah, I’d be lying if I said that it holds no appeal to know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that everything was going to be okay for my children, wife, family, friends, countrymen, and, well, everyone, regardless of the how hard and bright this life is, no matter how ignominious our passage through it. I might, for instance, be okay with Randall Rauser’s conception of god, but that’s not what Christianity promises anymore for the most part, and even if it did, I have no reason to believe it’s true. But a *truly* loving god and what that might represent? I can’t deny I have felt a longing in my heart for such things. I’m just not sure they’re compatible with the human condition. I hope I’ve done a decent job of explaining how I feel. It can be hard to put into words in ways that make sense. I’m still an atheist until something convinces me otherwise, though, so I’d rather pour my love and energy into the one life - and the people I love - that I *know* I get, than spend time pining for things that I wish were otherwise.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

I find it extremely immoral for a god or for anyone else to force people or any other types of life form into the type of existence where they suffer so badly that they hate existing and that's why I'm an antinatalist /extinctionist.

[@matthewnitz8367]

​@@MetaphorUBI think you did a good job explaining it, I made my own attempt in a comment as well. I think coming to this recognition is actually key to fighting the truly harmful types of Christianity. To be able to honestly say to a fundamentalist "I wish Christianity were true" I think tends to be extremely disarming and unexpected to them, that's not the script they are programmed to expect. Then you can follow that up by being completely honest about how the commands to commit genocide in the Old testament are incompatible with a good God, and hell is a vile abomination of an idea that couldn't possibly exist if a caring being created the universe. Then if they say you obviously don't actually want to be a Christian, you can repeat you'd love for Christianity to be true, but they are presenting a mockery of a good God and even if Christianity were true it is pretty obvious their version of the Christian God doesn't exist. It's hard to get a fundamentalist to understand that they have a personal philosophical framework they've built God around, and parts of that framework could absolutely be false even if Jesus existed as God incarnate and God loves everyone. But if anything is going to shake them out of their self satisfied smugness that they know the true God and are privy to his exact desires and thoughts in a way 99.999% of the world will never comprehend, I think it would be something like this approach.

[@MetaphorUB]

@ Thanks for the reply. I completely agree with your comment as well.

[@Trabunkle]

He's open to the possibility! You're not! It's so obvious! Written on an Atheist Tombstone: All dressed up and nowhere to go!

[@markhackett2302]

He's open to the possibility of WHAT? Because he's either wishing for the evil narcissist to exist and you are praising him for it, or he's wishing for a good god, but that isn't Christianity. Their god is the one in the bible.

[@misterdeity]

It’s not a matter of possibility. I don’t understand why anyone would want to be ruled over by a genocidal monster who hates women, LGBTQ+ folks, etc… and created beings He knows will end up spending all eternity suffering immeasurably. Why would anyone want that to be true?

[@Trabunkle]

@@misterdeity Anger clouds your vision and judgement! You should follow the Bushido path! It will bring you peace and enlightenment!

[@Trabunkle]

@Are those the only options? Does Alex has the right to choose? Based on what you think? You have a narrowed vision, try expanding it!

[@sproid]

1. Is a great communication tactic to prevent defensiveness and keep the conversation going. 2. If an all good God and heaven exist, it is reasonable & natural to desire well-being. 2.1 its doesn't have to be the Christian God, but whichever the other debater belief is as long as is all good. 2.2. Assuming all the negative is stuff have a good explanation or excuse. Like the Abrahamic religions being based on a kernel of truth but their scriptures just being man made and not divine.

[@misterdeity]

But is it true that he would love Christianity (as is) to be true?

[@sproid]

@misterdeity I guess we'll have to wait for his response. But as the philosopher that he is, I'm think the response will be somehow a 'yes and no'.

[@ProfessorPinkle]

​@@misterdeity The problem is you think there is ONE Christianity of the fire and brimstone, where Alex, while cognizant of that, recognizes many brands and is probably referring to the nice and forgiving and loving one. See the difference when you don't strawman what you critically engage with?

[@philosophyforum4668]

If Christianity is true, you can acquire eternal life in paradise. Why wouldn't anyone want that to be true?

[@pandstar]

I think everyone who has ever said this, has never really thought what an eternity actually means. Especially how it is described in he Bible, endlessly praising Yahweh for eternity.

[@philosophyforum4668]

​@@pandstar If people don't want to live forever, why is everyone always trying to avoid death? Why are we trying to find a cure for cancer? Is not death our biggest problem? So you prefer to live a little while instead of for eternity in paradise? I think it's you who haven't thought about what eternity means. Praising Yahweh will certainly be a part of it. Yahweh is the one offering us eternal life. But you have a warped view of eternity if you think that's all there is too it. For one thing it will be a kingdom. We will be doing all the wonderful things in life but will not have the worldly turmoil.

[@marquisdemoo1792]

You should remember that Alex is from the UK where the dominant Christian religion is Anglicanism. The Anglican church is fairly broad in beliefs but essentially it focuses on the teachings of Christ and the Old Testament is seen more as apocryphal than literal (Never understood why you might call yourself Christian if you focus so much on the OT). It is why creationism never took a hold here and why unlike the Catholic Church we don't subscribe to Devils, Angels and Saints as sorts of demi gods. I would even suggest that the concept of Hell per se is not supported by the Anglican church, at least not as an actual entity, just a state of mind. Thus we have a Church that gives solace to those unable to accept the realities of our mortality by suggesting we live on in eternal happiness after our deaths, and a community church that provides a centre for comforting birth, marriage and death rituals and a code of conduct based on the golden rule. We have even had Bishops who stated they did not believe in a god or that Jesus was a homosexual. So like Alex I too would love to believe, but cosy as this Church is, it is still based on a lie.

[@brianchojnowski5989]

Alex has said he is a “non resistant non believer” so with Christianity, I think that would mean he is seeking Christ the way it’s been prescribed in the Bible or traditions. I’m not sure if he’s doing the same with other religions or just Christianity because of his interest in the NT and such. From what I understand, he has yet to “find”

[@misterdeity]

Why would anyone want to find that monster? He clearly knows he’s a monster. Watch the debate with Dinesh.

[@brianchojnowski5989]

@@misterdeity I've watched that Dinesh debate a few times when I want to feel good! I don't know why Alex would want to find the god of Abraham, but in claiming to be a non-resistant, non-believer, he can cut slightly into arguments from personal experience...

[@idesel]

Alex would love for hell to be true?

[@seraphonica]

While I think it's important to build a bridge to believers, I typically prefer to say something like "if I believed in your god, I'd be behaving totally differently. I wouldn't be living any less 'sinful' a life though, I'd just be apologizing more often, I guess."

[@milohilltop3691]

I wouldn't say he's gaslighting. I think he's being straightforward with his questions and preference for a world where people would eventually get love and justice. Unfortunately, I think he's entertaining illogical wishes a bit too much, neglecting the good of the real and the present.

[@misterdeity]

Love and justice are the antithesis of Christianity! He knows that.

[@iamtheoceanr]

I think his point is that if all the believers are actually going to a perfect place in the sky to be with all of our loved ones with no more pain and suffering who wouldn't want that? He's likely trying to head off the tired argument that, "you just don't want a God to exist". This is my intuition as its something I have said to believers, "I wish there was a heaven". At no point do Alex or myself say, "I wish there was slavery, human sacrifices, and the rape condoned by god".

[@misterdeity]

No. But Alex is specific. I always say, "I'd love for there to be a truly loving Being looking out for us." But the evidence (this fu¢&ing mess!!!) is so completely contrary, I can't believe it. If Alex said, "I wish there were a heaven and a loving god" that would be one thing. But Alex knows his Christianity, and still say, "I'l love it if Christianity were true." Which is why my questions are pertinent.

[@matthewgagnon9426]

That's not what the Bible says about Heaven, though. What if when we die we all get as much candy as we want, and we have all our loved ones, and there's Taco Tuesday and Pizza Parties, and everyone has their own gigantic mega-theater that makes Imax screens look like a Nokia Brick phone? Don't we all want that? Heaven in the Bible is portrayed as a place where you sing hymns to God forever and ever, by the way. That's it. Why would I want that?

[@blahblingo7605]

​@@matthewgagnon9426well, the bible says "heaven", not _your heaven_ lol.

[@juanausensi499]

@@matthewgagnon9426 Christianity (and Judaism) started as a comfort belief for the oppressed. If you are having a miserable life, the simple prospect of not suffering any more can mean a lot.

[@_S0me__0ne]

I think many people want to believe, want to believe there's something more than 'this'; coming into existence, realizing we exist, and then utterly ceasing to exist. Something more than themselves, something more than can be proven. There's something many people find meaningful in a community of believers and all the ceremony and traditions and beliefs that comes with it. That's not me, but, maybe it's what Alex is getting at?

[@guywilletts2804]

It's obvious. Alex believes that it would be lovely if Christianity were true. But it is such a solly idea, that it can't be. Simple as that. No real mystery. No cause for premature celebration that a foremost thinker is about to join your team.

[@misterdeity]

But it’s not just silly. It’s horrific! As he showed in his debate with Dinesh.

[@Gaston-Melchiori]

I don't think Alex is been literal when he says "i would love to be christian". He is saying it meaning more like "i would Like if a deity existed, i would accept it if their morals are good and i have anought evidence", in my opinion. The amount of sarcasn in this video is incredible. But i think you know what the atheist position means... Alex does not think your god is real, and the existence of jesus is also debated, let alone any of the miracles he supoosedly did. So saying "he knows jesus died for our sins" is like me saying "you know Mohammed divided the moon in two".

[@markhackett2302]

Then he should have said the latter, not the former. We could accept a layman getting it wrong, but Alex is supposed to be a philosopher, not merely a way to move a moustache around.

[@Gaston-Melchiori]

@markhackett2302 or maybe he was talking about the "ideal god of the bible", the one that most people think about when talking about God. Not the actual god of the bible Yahweh, who is completely different from what people would think their god is. Or maybe its easier than that, Maybe he ment that "i would love to believe what is true". Wich is what most skeptics would say.

[@dustinmorton942]

Best way to grift. Alex sniffed the incredible wealth available if he will just convert and champion the tribal war-god of abraham. He will become their new golden boy.

[@Andy.Smurphy]

Alex also believes that we have evidence for Jesus!!!! I liked him but this turned me right off ...

[@adamtokay]

I think his answer would be something along the lines: If Mr Jesus is God it would mean that there is a afterlife and that would be an existentialist jackpot, the comforting idea that there is a meaning to all of this. It would also mean that all the horrible the things you listed would automatically be somehow justified, even if we cannot understand how from our perspective. Christianity being "true" implies that.

[@Khiswow]

I'm not Alex, and I don't pretend to speak for him, but I think that, when he says he'd love for God to exist, and Christianity to be true, he refers to the all loving, all powerful God to be true. Just like, some of us would like magic or mythical creatures like dragons to exist. I for example, sometimes refer to my gardian angel working hard when bad situations finally resolves themselves in a more favorable way than expected or a last minute event save my day, even if I know it's just luck and angels don't exist. I'd love it could be true, but it isn't and that's not a bad thing either, because It forces me to stay cautious and not relying on and external and invisible force / entity as an excuse while being careless.

[@misterdeity]

But Alex knows that’s not the God of Christianity. That’s my point in this video.

[@Archanox]

Well the big problem why I don't think it would be good for God to exist, is that there are too many mutually exclusive interpretations. I also don't really know what Alex pictures when he thinks of god.

[@Jarb2104]

I am personally in the same boat as Alex, but in regards to any God, if there is one out there, I would really love to know about said God, in the most basic form, simply out of curiosity, but also to know if that God is actually our creator, if they want something from us, if they need something from us, etc.

[@IrishWhiskeyisLife]

He recently did a 25 Christian’s vs 1 atheist jubilee debate. It was like watching Bruce Lee take down 25 gangsters. He was amazing to watch.

[@nsbd90now]

Dude... anyone with basic education on the topics can "Bruce Lee" lame Christians.

[@IrishWhiskeyisLife]

@@nsbd90now bull crap. Alex is impressive. How dare you dismiss the great ALEX. 😜

[@jayrobinson24]

I certainly wish people using the word "Christian" would define their understanding of the term. My assumption is that Alex is speaking of a type of generic Christianity that emphasizes divine goodness: "God is love, evil (somehow) isn't His fault, Jesus was wise, the Bible is largely mythology, Heaven is real, Hell is an invention." It's a reading of the texts that attempts to reconcile those ancient legends with actual facts we know about the world-so it discards the obviously ridiculous or malevolent as such, and doesn't feel compelled to defend or syncretize those things. In this view, Christianity's offer is a short brutish life in exchange for an eternal, ecstatic existence-it's a great deal! (though we should certainly ask why God decided to charge a cover to get in).

[@nsbd90now]

Alex O'Connor barely has a college-level education on the topics he tries to pontificate about. His "debates" are sophomoric.

[@convinceme6676]

he has degrees in philosophy and theology from Oxford university. What are you talking about?

[@nsbd90now]

@convinceme6676 I have graduate degrees in the topic. Alex doesn't even define terms when he "debates". College-level seminars are more on top of things than what he does. This is all cheap... along the lines of Sam Harris and friends.

[@convinceme6676]

@ graduate degrees in philosophy and theology? and please don’t say they are from Liberty College.

[@nsbd90now]

@convinceme6676 Ha ha! Not Liberty... Bob Jones'!

[@Sköldpadda-77]

Why would anyone want Christianity to be true? Hindus, Romans, and Greeks have much cooler gods.

[@markhackett2302]

Thing is he probably didn't mean Christian, he meant "some other religion, with a god I would like to exist, I would like to exist". Circular as it is, it is still not Christianity, because Christianity can be determined from those other religions by them having a different god. So either Alex was wrong because he didn't MEAN "Christianity" when he said it, or he's bad because he wants the violent narcissist that Christianity worships.

[@tomhenninger4153]

YOU ARE SO WRONG! Alex O'Connor is amazing. He is looking for truth. You are the one being gaslighted about God and the whole jesus thing. Alex says he wants to become a Christian but he knows the Bible is horrible. Stop using his name to get clicks.

[@misterdeity]

“Alex says he wants to become a Christian, but knows the Bible is horrible.” Isn’t that exactly what I said in this video? Those two statements do not align. I’m seeking clarification, not clicks.

[@ChristyAbbey]

Alex. Gosh. It'd be nice if he didn't agree with Christian/Ben Shapiro-esque transphobes and make sure he says that to them every interview or debate. So... I have no doubt he'd love to believe other irrational things.

[@Andrew_O]

I would wager a "no". I can understand the appeal of the proposition that one could live on in some way eternally rewarded and that perhaps once passing on to that next stage he'll get answers he never got in life. Now I wouldn't assume this is a really "active" yearning", but on a raw intellectual level there is some appeal, though not enough to show any signs of the kind of bias believers exhibit. In summary, not gas-lighting, and pretty benign. This is nothing more than an "It'd be nice for something awesome after and to actually have someone looking out for me" .... even as he tears down the foundations of the faulty epistemology of others...

[@darthvirgin7157]

i think the ‘STACHE is clouding his LOGIC CIRCUITs.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

I could sort of understand wanting Christianity to be true... without the genocide and Hell and yada yada yada. I had an online argument with an apologist. He offered a thought experiment... what if you knew it was true... but forget all the negative stuff in the Bible. (something along those lines.) He didn't seem to understand why that wouldn't work.

[@misterdeity]

I guess what Alex should say is, “I would love for Christianity to be true if it weren’t Christianity.”

[@ProfessorPinkle]

​@@misterdeityThere is no one Christianity. and you as an atheist certainly don't get to decide what it is. This is the problem with your adolescent remarks. Alex is one third your age and he is twice as mature.

[@markhackett2302]

@@ProfessorPinkle "There is no one Christianity." That would mean, necessarily, that all monotheism is wrong, especially Christianity. Yet you only berate atheists, never christians. Why? Because you are a partisan hack, nothing more.

[@ChopperChad]

I think Alex is just saying he wish a loving all power god existed with whom we could have a relationship and seek guidance. But he doesn’t because of all the horrors, errors, inconsistencies, politics, and so forth in the Bible of that god. That’s all.

[@misterdeity]

Then he should say THAT!

[@markhackett2302]

The BIIIIIIG problem with that is that isn't Christianity. If Alex had said "I wish there was a loving god", then fine, but he didn't, he said "I wish that Christianity was true". He doesn't get to pick ONLY what he wants to be true from that smorgasbord of The Bible and then claim ONLY THAT which he wants to be true he wants to be true, because when phrased correctly it is patently clear that this is a circular argument, and, as a philosopher from Oxford (Chris Hitchens' brother is also from Oxford), Alex should know that and avoid it. He didn't.

[@deadinmydreams]

I believe it was the Dinesh debate, but i could be wrong. Alex was asked the question if he has faith in anything. He said yes. I'd love to hear his answer is and what he means by faith.

[@SapientCephalopod]

I also love Alex, but I share your confusion on this topic and one other. Alex claims to be a "Moral Emotivist", and this meta-ethical view does seem to be a valid rationale to describe the human "moral sense". However, this view does not really explain anything unless you unpack WHY we have the moral emotions we have. This relates to biology and more importantly the environment (society) we were raised in. I am still waiting for Alex to disect that side of his stance. If you are raised by canibals, "Boo Murder" gets replaced with "Yeah Dinner". WHY ALEX? Why would that be the case? And more importantly, which of these moral emotions should we cultivate. Why is "yeah dinner" an inferior moral emotion to "boo murder"? Stating that you believe morality is nothing more than emotions is lazy. "Boo Murder" hits the nail on the head while explaining and justifying nothing. Hopefully, you can goad Alex into expounding on his stance.

[@Nathouuuutheone]

The why is hidden in the "emotion" part. Those emotions are the source. And there is none we should or shouldn't promote, at least not as a blanket convention. There is no "should" without an explicit goal. What is "good" is only good specifically for, say, people, an individual, a system, an idea... Yay dinner is perfectly good if your only goal is to maximize your survival at all cost and you think eating humans is your best option. Effectively no other humans will go along with that, though, because that goes against their best interests and particularly because it triggers learned and instinctual emotions, the causes of which are up to evolution. None of those things will give you the answer you seek because the answer does not exist. There is no should. There is only is and could. Boo murder is a convention. One most of us are willing to break under specific conditions (and would even break against our own will if we got scared enough or misinformed or whatever). Is it a convention I expect people to support? Yes. For the same reason I expect my own brain to not want to destroy itself. Because it's for the best interests of me and my attachments. I don't think being hung up on "why" in a world of emotionless cause and effect is a position from which one can call moral emotivists "lazy". If anything, there's laziness in not working through your own bias of "morality has to be a magical thing distinct from the rest of reality, we can't ever make it fit within deterministic physics and those who try to are lazy".

[@SapientCephalopod]

@@Nathouuuutheone I don't disagree with anything you have said for the most part. How we feel about things is a product of our upbringing in a specific society. Some societies have better quality of life and we would do well to figure out what it is that they feel if we want to improve our own. However, I am still waiting for Alex O'Connor to part his lips and expound in a similar manner. Without some exposition, someone might get the wrong idea about "me feels" as a justification for bad behavior.

[@kjones9744]

I can kind of understand wanting some aspects of your former religion to be true; I am a fellow Formon (former Mormon), and there are aspects of the religion that I wish were true, such as parts of the plan of salvation, just not the spiritual paradise and prison part, then the three different kingdoms are kind of f'ed up, and the three separate tiers of the celestial kingdom as well. Oh, and the spiritual polygamy that goes on there as well, that's more than a little f'ed up. Wow, I don't think I've given the plan of salvation much thought after leaving the church and, damn, is it really f'ed up!! Guess the only thing that it had going for it was seeing your loved ones in some kind of paradisiacal afterlife is the only thing going for it and it's not like that is only promised by the LSD, I mean, LDS church.

[@mizotter]

Speaking of LSD...I just recently discovered the entheogens explanation for Joe + crew's early visions! I'm enjoying learning about it! It's a trip!

[@BigHairyCrank]

There's no such things as ghosts.

[@nektu5435]

I think money and rich friends are enough to convert a lot of our favorite KZbin atheists. It makes sense. You clearly want attention if you’re making KZbin videos and putting yourself on camera. Most people absolutely are corruptible but if the opportunity never comes then they (mistakenly) think it’s because they can’t be corrupted. Most of us just need the chance and with the right incentives will do the complete opposite of what we claim. It takes a lot to know how and why it’s important to live on your principles and to actually follow through when it matters most.

[@UncleKennysPlace]

I think Alex was tired of preaching to the choir, and changed his tactics. Also, I have an atheist friend who wants it to be true so he can meet up with his dead mother, old friends, etc. He couldn't believe it when I told him I didn't want to live forever.

[@janmillerstopmotion]

Alex misunderstood "thou shalt be stoned".

[@laurajarrell6187]

Mr. Deity, Brian, wow, you put it purrrrfectly, daahling! I've been subbed to Alex since he was 17! Then, and and for a couple years after, he spoke often of, and more like, Hitch. Considering his youth, anyway. But, Dawkins, Hitch, Sam Harris and Dennet, the 4 Horsemen, were still what I was feasting on. Even after Hitch was gone. His friends, (Swish!) called Alex the 'Altar Boy', and he had been one! Later though, I did see his respect for some of his teachers, even while debating one. But as he changed from 'Cosmic Skeptic' to his Alex O'Conner podcast, he did seem more and more, to talk as if he, maybe missed the 'pomp and circumstance' of the church? Though, how he could, I don't know. Especially as anti- monarch / royals, guy. I wonder if he sees the 'belief' and contentment it gives,(that all will be explained, fixed, blah, blah) in some professors he admires, wishes for that. It is easier than knowing the horrific suffering we cause constantly to animals. Ugh, I don't know. Maybe he says that 'I wish I belirved' crap, just so they'll take his criticism seriously. But I'm glad you're the one questioning. You can do it with kindness, care and if needed, the best wry sarcasm and biting wit around! I guess I can only hope he matures past that. 👍💙💝💙💖💙🥰✌

[@misterdeity]

I hope he responds! Thanks always for the kind words. It's always good to see you here. ♥

[@ziploc2000]

I lost respect for Alex when I saw him interviewing Richard Swinburne. Swinburne was going on about cutting someone's brain in half and putting half the brain into 2 other bodies to see if they'd have the same personality, or some such shit. Alex just let him drone on, with a goofy smile on his face. Setting aside the ethical considerations, Since we can't actually do this experiment, we can predict any result with equal validity.

[@SapientCephalopod]

I don't have data, but based on anecdotes and my own deconversion. Every theist goes through a "Hitch" (angry athiest) phase when you realize that you have been gaslit your entire life, and that you were too dumb to catch on sooner.

[@charliekowittmusic]

@@SapientCephalopod This exactly. The OP said they hope Alex matures past this. But Alex has already matured past the OP. This world is filled with people who hate a thing so much, they let themselves be defined by opposition to that thing. Religion isn’t bad or good. It’s a tool. Like all tools, it can be used for either.

[@SapientCephalopod]

If Religion is a tool (and I agree that it is), then it is a pre-OSHA tool. Like a fabric loom without guards that regullarly dismembered children laborers in the 1800. By analogy, any "guards" you would put on religion would impede its ability to function without retooling the whole machine. Better to adopt a modern machine (Secular Humanism) that comes with safety systems already in place.

[@iseriver3982]

I wonder if its a grift because he seems to be angling for the Christian conservative audience

[@Anom990]

In his interview with Ruslan he also said Biblical slavery was different to chattel slavery

[@keith6706]

He made the same statement in an interview with Dan McClellan, which Dan very politely (and in my view far too gently) pushed back on, and then, despite being corrected on the issue, went on to then assert it was true as if he didn't hear a thing Dan said.

[@sohu86x]

That's good and all, but Dan is a LDS.​@@keith6706

[@theelephantintheroom8016]

I couldn't get past the first page of the bible. I couldn't reckon with the order of creation and god working his magic in the dark and then creating light. TA-DA!

[@markhackett2302]

To be Or not to be. What was the question?

[@robpalmer1387]

Well, the Mirror Universe Spock had a mustache and lived his life in support of the evil Terran Empire. So now I’m thinking there’s a connection, and if Alex grows a beard as well, he will go fully to the dark side. (Yes, I know I just did a franchise mash up there.)

[@bobvee1694]

This is distressing to ponder, but there may be a veer to the right in an attempt to monetize his YT and debate skill clout. I am sure that with his knowledge and skill Alex could easily make lucid arguments in favor of religiosity and make plenty of dough in the conservative and right wing ecosphere where there seems to be more money to be made. This was certainly the motive of, say, Russell Brand, and perhaps Ayaan as well. That Christianity pays better is not (to me) a good reason to lie or obfuscate, but plenty of people do it.

[@williamestes629]

If he was to follow up with Tell me why it's true and tell me why it's good.

[@suelingsusu1339]

In as far as the aphorism "Ignorance is bliss" goes, I think that is what Alex means by him wishing he could be a Christian.

[@SapientCephalopod]

I think of the Cypher character in the Matrix. Who cares if the t-bone steak is real? And a convincing mouthful of juicy steak beats a bowl of gruel every time. Alex, step away from the Blue Pill. Step away from the pill. Seriously, we will get you a real steak, my treat.

[@rathraven1313]

Ignorance is bliss works for atheist, too. They wished there was no proof for God yet life keeps slapping them in the face.

[@markhackett2302]

Except what Alex wants is not Christianity, it is something he is made up, common among Christians, but also among non-Christian theists too, and he's CALLING Christianity, when it ain't.

[@aNicerPlace]

I think Alex is playing the long game - to side with & then deconvert unsuspecting Xians😉