Would Osgiliath Have Still Fallen if BOROMIR Was There? | Lord of the Rings Lore

[@johnc2631]

I would also add that Denethor would have given more support to Osgiliath if the defenses were under Boromir vs Faramir.

[@jprocha1570]

With or without Boromir, Osgiliath was destined to fall.

[@ericsetter3783]

Facts...plus all the witch king had to do is to kill him. Which he could get to him easily. Couldn't run from him he has a winged beast couldn't kill him cause he cant be beat by men. Which is what any smart person would do cut the head of the snake off first if you can.

[@fabinret1239]

@@ericsetter3783 maybe. but i like my odds better with Boromir there, his sword gleaming in the gloom and the horn of Gondor blowing

[@SecretPaints]

@@ericsetter3783 the couldn’t be killed by man thing is nonsense. It was the special dagger that merry stabbed the witch king with that allowed eowyn to kill him. Literally anyone on the battlefield could’ve killed him at that point

[@ericsetter3783]

@@SecretPaints He wounded him but didn't kill him. His dagger also disintegrated after he did so. He wasn't able to take the final blow. So it was true also he is a Hobbit not a normal man. He was killed by a woman.

[@P_Petkov]

I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king.

[@shereemcclelland2186]

One of the best scenes in the movies. Very moving as he said goodbye to his king. He knew who the ranger from the north really was.

[@emankcin1701]

When the long standing captain of your football club retires

[@user-je3sk8cj6g]

That's his best line. He calls Aragorn "brother", equalizing him to his own brother Faramir, which is the person he loves most in the world. Then he calls Aragorn "my Captain", relinquishing his own title to Aragorn. And finally "my King", placing Aragorn above Boromir's own father.

[@briansheets3996]

Yes. Sauron wanted it too much. The orc forces were overwhelming. Plus with the Easterling Pirates arriving by boat...

[@HPugwash]

Easterling pirates?

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@HPugwash He meant Corsairs and Easterlings.

[@daveowens271]

It may have delayed the inevitable, but Osgiliath was going to fall. Boromir, in my opinion, gets more hate than he deserves. Both he and Denethor II were just not strong enough to fight Sauron. They did a great job for a long time, though.

[@palious13]

I think those who think Boromir could hold Osgiliath forget a few important details. First, the Nazgul. Seeing a beacon of hope holding the line, the Witch-King would have probably attacked Boromir personally. There's no way Boromir stood a chance against a Nazgul, let alonbe the Witch-King. At that point, the whole of Gondor would know that the enemy had defeated their greatest hero. A lot has been said of morale, and that would devastate Gondorian morale. Or, the second thing, the Witch-King was also a brilliant strategist. And seeing thhat the Gondor forces intended to hold Osgiliath, would have moved another army to cross the river elsewhere and cut off the army in Osgiliath. Thereby deestroying the main army, and capturing/killing Boromir. The same devastating loss of morale would crush Gondor much sooner.

[@jerryspiegelberg8721]

Now You have me curious about Faramir's role.... Would He have gone to Rivendell ? How would Faramir's presence in the Fellowship compare to what We know 🤔

[@j.l.howlett6843]

We already know how he refused to take the ring so probably would be better fit to fellowship

[@calebseliga3827]

Fellowship may not have broke so early. Also may have kept them from getting separated and maybe if they kept moving tan into Theodred prior to Saruman’s Uruk Hai thrashing them and then made it to Rohan together…what could’ve been.

[@TheTableOfDurin]

But then again, the ring would have probably gone to Minas Tirith instead of to Mordor and maybe the quest would have eventually failed, for Frodo does not find a way to enter, since he wouldn't met Gollum, who shows him the secret passage of Cirith Ungol, since Frodo would stay with the fellowship

[@calebseliga3827]

@@TheTableOfDurin it definitely wouldn’t have made it to Mina’s tirith with Faramir already having strength to deny it when he had the opportunity and knowing how his father would’ve been. The fellowship wouldn’t have broke off until after Helms Deep when Faramir would be obligated to return home

[@TheTableOfDurin]

@calebseliga3827 but Boromir was the final reason why Frodo departed from the fellowship and went further alone (with Sam), but I'm not so sure that he would have thought at some point I'm going further alone, even after Helm's deep, although there is another question, would they even have joined the men of Rohan in their battle? Since their pace would be much slower then originally written down, since they probably wouldn't hunt a pack of Uruk-Hai

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Great video! I think you made a wonderful argument and I think you made the correct predictions. As for strategy, I think Boromir will use a combination of the three.

[@Tolkienosaurus]

I think if Sauron found such a strong resistance at Ogiliath he would just make his troops croos at Cair Andros.

[@bookman7409]

While I haven't scanned every comment, I haven't seen anything about a couple of points. Firstly, in your timeline, Boromir wouldn't have time to do much of anything with Rohan, and he was suspicious of Galadriel in the original. He'd never contact Lorien of his own accord. But more importantly, Faramir goes to Rivendell, joins the Fellowship, and resists temptation, so let's say the quest proceeds as depicted, up until Cair Andros. It was the biggest fork in the road in the story. Frodo, while being uneasy still, would never have come to sit on the seat of Amon Hen. Aragorn had planned to head for Minas Tirith, and Frodo might've been willing to go along, but that would have brought the Ring straight to Denethor, but also to Boromir. His lust for the Ring would've been far greater from defending Osigiliath for so long. The Ringbearer would've been betrayed, regardless of anything Faramir might attempt. Without Boromir's fall (and repentance), the Fellowship would have failed, because the desperate Frodo and tenacious Sam would've never associated themselves with Gollum, so no successful secret entry through Cirith Ungol into Mordor. It's the difference between just barely possible to impossible, and that makes all the difference in the Arda. (That's what I get for loving alternate history books, too, a habit of really thinking about the ripple effect)

[@jamess7576]

Men of the West dives into this on his own video on this topic and is similar to your take. I find myself in more agreement with this general view.

[@darbyelliott2890]

I bet Gandalf intended Faramir take the trip to Rivendell. That would have provided Boramir as stated.

[@TheMeleeNuke]

I have always wandered what would have happen if Farimir had gone instead.

[@metakarukenshi]

given that he figured out what Isildurs bane was so fast, he would have been a much better fit for the Fellowship, and after Gandalf fell, Faramir and Aragorn may have been able to achieve far more, the Fellowship may have stayed together and not been broken.

[@TheMeleeNuke]

@@metakarukenshi True, but then they would have never gone to Rohan

[@metakarukenshi]

@@TheMeleeNuke exactly, which means merry and pippin werent there to rouse the ents. so Gandalf would have to rouse the ents and defend Rohan alone.

[@TheMeleeNuke]

@@metakarukenshi Yes, so really, even though Faramir should have gone, in the long run it was for the better that he did not.

[@TexasTimeLord]

There is NO WAY Denethor would have allowed Boromir to leave Gondor because of a dream (!) during this crisis situation, UNLESS Denethor knew about the Ring and hoped Boromir would find it and bring it back to Gondor.

[@MrsMacLover]

Denethor didn't know at that point. How could he? Gandalf was only sure after reading about it in the archives, THEN returning to the Shire an throwing The Ring into a fire.

[@metakarukenshi]

but Denethor also loved Boromir far more. so if Boromir said he was going, Denethor was too kind to Boromir to say no.

[@TexasTimeLord]

He had one of the Palantir and may have learned about it since Sauron also knew. ​@MrsMacLover

[@TexasTimeLord]

He loved him more so would not want him sent away. He would send the son he cared less about on such a dangerous journeys @metakarukenshi

[@metakarukenshi]

@@TexasTimeLord but if you unreasonably love one child more than the other child you arent gonna tell the child you love more No you cant do that I need you here. you let that child do whatever they request.

[@caselleknoxiv589]

Faramir would have gone instead and wouldn't be tempted by the ring and Denethor wouldn't have succumb to madness, he withstood Sauron when he looked in the Palantir. The breaking of the Fellowship would not have happened.

[@Joe-h4i1939]

Denethor would have not been grieving and might be more focused on what was going on with the battle against the souron

[@FutureMythology]

From start to finish, this video is just awesome. I highly recommend it!

[@Relics_of_Arda]

Great video!

[@Michael-ji3gw]

Interesting thought experiment, but Tolkien wanted Osgiliath to fall, so it would have fallen regardless.

[@Dinoslay]

11:37 That right there could have helped him survive longer against the Uruks at Amon Hen. But as it is, in the Peter Jackson film at least, he left his shield carelessly behind to gather some firewood.

[@dr.redacted7077]

I always like the sorta "what if" stuff people come up with for LOTR lore. Tolkien even seemed to talk about it at times if I recall.

[@FlowMichael]

Denethor-ass question

[@philipphammer3474]

Although I do think that the presence of Boromir would have been beneficial for the defense of Osgiliath, I don't think that he could have done much more than a little stiffer defense inflicting more losses to Mordor and a coordinated retreat (at best). Osgiliath was simply overrun. Even holding it for a few more days would have had not much immediate impact on a call to reinforcements, as all potential allies were jusy defending themselves. Maybe Rohan or Gondors firfdoms cpuld have mustered a few thousand men more, they would still be outnumbered, only less agregious. Also, by the time the Rohirrim arrive, there was already an army across Cair Andros. Osgiliath would have been outflanked in any case. In short, I do think that Boromir's presence would have been beneficial, but not pivotal in any major way, as Faramir is also a very capable commander and the even more capable Boromir would not have made a fifference large enough to overcome the numbers they were facing.

[@joened4613]

Fate of Osgiliath was sealed from the begining of the war! Boromir's presence wouldn't have made any difference!

[@Marcus-ki1en]

To put it simply, it would only have delayed the inevitable. Consider that while Boromir held Osgiliath, Rohan is not summoned. When the Harad troops arrived, they may have crossed the river down stream and surrounded the city leveling it by siege. Maybe Sauron sends more troops at the city and less going north.

[@Raknalangel95]

The most important after effect of Boromir remaining in Gondor would've been Denethor's own inner conflict against the Palantir and the despair he faced before the siege of Minas Tirith. I do believe that Faramir would've been sent to Rivendell in his stead, especially since he was the first to receive those visions. With that in mind, it's possible and even likely that the fellowship would've been spared the conflict and loss of Boromir and even it's breaking. Faramir and Aragorn along with those few who chose to journey to Gondor in aid of the war would've been better welcomed by Boromir as Faramir vouched for the returning king. But that's speculation.

[@jimspetdragons3737]

I think Faramir did the best as could be done at Osgiliath and Boromir would not have done any better even w/ triple the man power. It was a fool's errand vs the overmatching enemy forces. Staying in Gondor would have gone better than it did. Perhaps not trying to save Osgiliath would have been the right call.

[@TheXxcreonxx]

I agree with the sentiment of his inspiring leadership but I think it very much worth noting the Witch-King has a strong history with bringing about the downfall of such heroes. All of that good that Boromir could've accomplished for the morale of Gondor, the soldiers and Denethor could be undone by a terrible and grim defeat at the hands of the Witch King. He would not be a hard target to locate and can't imagine he and his soldiers could stand against the nazgul determined to destroy him.

[@Otsego]

This would likely have been devastating for the fellowship. Frodo leaves the party because of Boromir giving into the ring. This might have them stay together which would leave Saruman in control of Rohan. No aid would have come. Also the Ents would never enter the war. That would leave Saruman exactly where he wants to be and ready to launch his own offensive.

[@adrisan6296]

Had Boromir stayed to defend Osgoliath and everything else in the fellowship played out exactly as it did (Faramir dies in his stead), he would've taken the ring from Frodo and all would've been lost. Things happened exactly as Eru Illuvatar intended and designed in the song of the Ainur, many ages before.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

You're right, under the leadership of Boromir, he will delayed the Mordor armies long enough for the Rohirrim to arrived.

[@jamess7576]

In the books Faramir has the presence to help the men near him deal with the power of the Nazgul. Keyword near him. (Gandalf and Imrahil also have that presence) Boromir would face the same problem Faramir did. The men near him would have courage, but Boromir could only be in one place at a given time. Osgiliath still falls.

[@headtrips1]

Best channel

[@jubjub13483]

I think he would have helped massively and helped boost the morale. However it would have fallen eventually, but it would of delayed everything for Sauron

[@fabinret1239]

I dont know if he would have saved osgillath but if anyone's presence at the city would change the tide it would have been him, I think that if Boromir would have sent a personal call for aid from Rohan and informed them the city would fall without aid then they would of came, especially if the receiver was Eomoer he speaks very highly of Boromir in the books and was surprised to hear he was slain by orcs.

[@Speedie1962]

Boromir was flashier but Faramir was not only a scholar but also a great warrior, he was one that the Numenorian blood ran true.

[@paulbrickler]

So, if they had sent Faramir to Rivendell, as was apparently the original design of Ulmo, the story might have been very different. Who would have defended Merry and Pippin against the orcs of Isengard? Who would have let Frodo pass at the sacred pool of Henneth Annuin? Would Faramir and Eowyn ever have met, let alone married? If Boromir lived, which brother would have been made Prince of Ithilien?

[@roboslug7582]

What Boromir would have done is order 50,000 Impossible Burgers, remove the labels, and leave them in the middle of Osgiliath. Then, he'd pretend to retreat, but actually hide in the outskirts of the city. When the orcs crossed the river, they'd see the burgers, and celebrate that meat was back on the menu. And when they ate them, thinking they were regular burgers, they would be magically transformed into vegans, suffering -2d6 to Strength and Constitution, and -3d6 to Intelligence. And as soon as they succumbed to their weakened stupor, Boromir would launch a major attack, wiping them all out. Honestly, half of them wouldn't even fight back because, on becoming vegan, the orcs would also have to roll a d6, and on an odd number, they would also become pacifists. The Nazgul would be a bit more tricky to deal with, but not impossible. It would take a bit of setup, though. A few weeks before the battle, Boromir would have to place an ad in the classified section of the Osgiliath Times, for a night shift manager at a call center. The Nazgul, upon seeing the ad, would be immediately driven to apply because of their insatiable will to dominate all life. Then, the night before the battle, Boromir would call them up and ask them all in for an interview, at their Gundabad office. Naturally, when they all showed up to the same place, they would get angry that they were competing for the same job, and start fighting each other. With the Nazgul thus distracted, and the orcs weakened and pacified, Osgiliath would be easily saved and Boromir could commence his full-scale assault on Mordor. Too bad Faramir lacked that strategic vision.

[@hansauer5021]

By delaying the battle of the black gate, Frodos succes chances drops significantly because Mordor is still full of orcs. Sauron would act with more caution, so the ring can not be destroyed.

[@headtrips1]

He would have put Gondor in a better position to fight at the battle of Pelenor fields, but his attendance alone wouldn’t have changed the fact That Gondor was incredibly outnumbered to Mordor.

[@TarMody]

I don't think Boromir can prevent the fall of Osgiliath, but I think he can at most delay its fall.

[@seawanderer8532]

Don't forget that boromir drove off the troll in moria. If he wasn't there, what would have happened to the fellowship?

[@dmr6640]

The fellowship would not have broken if Faramir was traded with Boromir. Denethor may have chosen who went where because of what was shown to him in the palantir.

[@Kobra6510]

Well.....this answers the question of "Where was Gondor went the west wall fell?" They were trying to defend Osgiliath.

[@Rj-pw7zs]

Osgiliath wasn't very defense able. He'd have tried, perhaps even managed to hold it for longer but ultimately it would have fallen.

[@TheForcesWrath]

Please Tagg the music you used in the video its really good, I'd like to use it for reading ✊🏿

[@ritvikpandey8806]

Denethor wouldn't have lost his mind either, and would capably keep fighting Sauron in the Palantir

[@garyoneill5648]

Boromir falling at Osgiliath may have also had an adverse effect? dying horribly (like being eaten by a nazgûl or beheaded by Gothmog [unlikely] ) infront of the men, moral would have been stripped with little/no hope to rekindle. however even this would have saved the wasted men Denethor ii sent to there doom.....

[@DBat-sp1tp]

If Boromir had stayed and everything played out the same with the Fellowship particularly Frodo, Sam and Gollum being caught I don’t think Boromir would’ve been able to let them leave like Faramir. He would have taken the ring.

[@RyanControl]

I don't think there's any real evidence for Boromir being a more capable captain than Faramir, beyond perhaps the biases of Denethor who is NOT a reliable judge of anything by this point. Also, Gondor getting Rohan to commit early on to their war would have just left them even more vulnerable to attack from Isengard. Likewise, the elves of Lothlorien had good reason for not sending troops to fight in Minas Tirith (or Helms Deep, for that matter). They needed every elf the could get to face the threat of Dul Guldor and (potentially) Moria. In the end, the Free Peoples were never going to win through power and force of arms. Only in the the rejection of power through destroying the One Ring was there hope.

[@ciaranbrk]

Osgiliath would’ve fallen anyway due to the overwhelming numbers. Boromir May even have retreated sooner than Fermier who laid a very decent ambush. The Nazgûl where at the attack as well there was no holding Osgiliath against those numbers.

[@alanmike6883]

The orc's were simply TOO Many. They could afford losses Gondor couldn't take even with Extra resources. Plus if needed the witch king could've done what saruman did to theodred. Make boromir a target to be taken out even if it was a entire company assigned to do it with one mission. Mirk the son of the steward

[@giorgikobalava7430]

Most likely yes. Osgiliath wasn't lost because Faramir wasn't skilled enough, it was lost because Faramir and his men were overwhelmed and overrun by the sheer numbers of Orcs. What whould have Boromir done ? magically increased their numbers and decreased those of the enemy's ? I don't think so...

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Warning, this is long! Boromir could have gone to Rivendell and then straight back to Gondor. Then he would have his answers and could have been at Osgiliath during the attack. Boromir could only have effected his own people as Grima would not let any aid go to Gondor as he would not send any to the Fords of Isen! Faramir was forced to retreat because the orcs had made boats to cross the river so Faramir was being attacked from in front and behind! Yes, I agree he would have made a difference, but it would not be a great difference at Osgiliath. His difference would be in the attack on the city itself. Denethor would not try and kill Faramir, so Gandalf could deal with the Witch-King, thus saving Theoden and preventing Eowyn and Merry from their injuries. Whilst Gandalf was dealing with the Witch-King and Imrahil aiding the Rohirrim, Boromir would keep Mordor's forces out of Minas Tirith, or at least not let them reach the second level. Aragorn would arrive and turn the tide of battle and win the battle and Boromir would see Aragorn as a successful captain and how he is a worthy leader and after he would see his humility and his respect for the Stewards when Aragorn would refuse to enter the city. He would see Aragorn's healing abilities as the true king and would see his mercy when Aragorn let the weak of heart go and give them another task. After the fall of Sauron Boromir would convince his father to give Aragorn the throne of Gondor, saying he'd seen a true and worthy king in Aragorn and as his heir asked he would, but Denethor would vanish in the night, never to be seen again. This would be his punishment to Boromir for betraying his duty, forcing Boromir to be Steward and thus no longer a soldier!

[@futuresonex]

I don't think Boromir's presence would have made much of a difference. Faramir may have been more of a scholar, but he was also an expert warrior and captain. He would have used the same tactics, strategies, and defenses as his brother. Boromir being there would have helped, but it would have ended exactly the same way. They were too badly outnumbered.

[@LUPINEMAXX]

Question might be...would Faramir have lived where Boromir would have died?!? Faramir was not tempted in the same way Boromir was - therefore not trying to take the ring and being separated from the rest of the fellowship during the orc assault thereby not being killed.

[@giano427]

Boromir wouldn't have let Osgiliath fall... but father, he was there and I was here by your side? Exactly! what kind of brother are you, staying here with me instead of being out there. Get your butt over there and take it back and while you're there tell you brother to stop and get milk on his way back.

[@pkthunder7008]

Boromir isn't about to overcome the 9. He doesnt have the tools to do so.

[@waynespratt-bg7ij]

I would like to know what would happen if the brothers of switched places

[@jeffreygao3956]

Probably. Even Boromir would wet his pants when facing Nazgûl.

[@jubjub13483]

No chance, they inspired fear and Boromir was fearless so wouldn't have affected him

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@jubjub13483 So...Boromir dies taking out dozens of orcs and Uruk-hai but is somehow able to beat all nine Nazgul at once? Doubt it.

[@jubjub13483]

@@jeffreygao3956 lol I never said would take out 9 at once. In the books the main weapon of the Nazgul was fear and if Boromir was there he would have stood his ground. He even tried to take on the Balrog

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@jubjub13483 Which just proves that he’s terrible at judging his own power level.

[@calebseliga3827]

So what your saying is Faramir should’ve went👌🏼

[@hagbardceline7118]

This is a lot of inspiring the hearts of his men stuff and very little material analysis. Faramir demonstrated a pretty good degree of strategy in asymmetric warfare. Boromir was never show to have any strategic strength at all.

[@nathanaelheil2818]

Please! Borimir would've led a counterattack and left Mordor in ruins.

[@frogmand.142]

Nah, a strong defense is only useful if your opponent chooses to attack it. Sauron was the opponent. Sauron would have used Boromir's strength against him. Just like the One Ring eventually did.

[@davect01]

Yup, it still would have fallen. Mordor just had too many troops. You are giving Boromir too much credit, sure he could have held off Mordor a bit longer but it was a loosing fight.

[@morgoth173]

Video 299

[@dhruvdave6960]

Not in the realm of realistic. Apologies... But I think you are putting too much credit to Boromir's capabilities without the evidence and a lot of what ifs without justification!.

[@ianshaw1486]

Also doing Faramir a disservice, for while more scholarly than Boromir, he was no less a leader and warrior. He speaks of Faramir indirectly much as Denethor did, if more tactfully

[@Honeyless-Badger]

Faramir is a noob commander. Boromir could defend Osgiliath.

[@philipphammer3474]

Denethor?

[@Honeyless-Badger]

@@philipphammer3474 Using palantir made him crazy. But before, he was a very good steward and did his best to defend Gondor.

[@philipphammer3474]

@@Honeyless-Badger I know I jokingly was assuming you were Denethor, calling Faramir a noob and stating Boromir could defend Osgiliath ;)

[@Honeyless-Badger]

@@philipphammer3474 Denethor was right about him. Faramir is such a disgrace, if i will have a son like him in the future, i would dump in a trash can, or i would put drug in his pocket and call the police.