Would These Indie Heroes Survive Cult of the Lamb? Part 4

[@rougarabid]

Crawlin’ back to the CotL well... Discord - discord.gg/atyzDTceyx

[@pengukiaba8157]

Uh oh I think you made another hollow knight situation… here we go again… you think you can handle it again

[@Dumbgames_Studios]

3:42 damn, there gos my plans for adding flumpty into the cult of the lamb

[@Yoru-cake]

You should do The Lamb vs. More popular characters such as Ultrakill like V1 because don't get me wrong,I may love Lambert but all of these characters seem really weak so I just wanna see how well be fairs against more godlike beings.

[@Ethan03887]

What about glitchtale the animation story that shows that the main characters can be very strong depending on the au that it is and go watch undertale vs touhou 👌

[@erikcat2.036]

Frisk, lamb and goat all use they/them

[@andrewdarby8843]

Things to note with Frisk: 1) cult of the lamb is a video game, just not aware of it. Therefore, removing Frisk's abilities is a bit disingenuous (and makes the conversation less interesting when I think this is an otherwise interesting idea) 2) six human souls have already been killed by Asgore before the fame starts. Humans are powerful in thus world, but monsters can and do win. I think humans in this world are scaled up rather than monsters scaled down. 3) Frisk destroys the human world as well as the monster world during reset timelines. Therefore, even if we believe monsters are weak, Frisk still scales to genociding humans. 4) Undertale is not a 'video game' inside its own logic. Chara (you, the player) is a character within the game who was the first human to ever come to the underground. Deleting data is the way Chara interprets the world, not the logic of the world itself. Other characters see what you're doing for what it is in the world, resetting time. Effectively, Chara is a character with time and soul manipulation powers. However, they don't have the power to erase myltiverses. Frisk is just the human who Chara possesses and puppets around. During a pacifist run, they are both on the same page. During genocide, they are in conflict and Chara takes control (and starts to flex their power). So, I actually agree with you that Frisk does really badly if they don't have Chara, but that seems like it's nerfing the character for no reason, like taking a character whose power comes from a magic sword and going 'yeah, bur without the sword, they just die'. Note: Chara is the fan name for the player due to an Easter egg in undertale suggesting that's the first human's canon name. In practice, their name is the player's name.

[@BlaxkSun]

Reading the first bullet point just antis everything else. These videos and vs have never been put the video game mechanics in this video game and see how it gels. It’s put this character in this world, only one that’s different is DOOM invading someone else’s world.

[@zettovii1367]

​@@BlaxkSun Problem, @Rouga Rabid used the entire game argument to dismiss canon powers on Undertale. If it's gonna be like that, then it goes both ways or no way at all.

[@Ieam0309]

​@@BlaxkSun the problem is that they are not video game mechanics. This is akin to arguing someone from a litRPG fantasy book loses their video game powers because they are game mechanics. SAVE and LOAD and RESET are powers granted by DETERMINATION, an intristic part of the human soul which can allow the spuls to persist after death, warp time, and even refuse death. This fact is used in most of the game's ending (the villain uses this power against you, there are monsters with DETERMINATION that are immortal, the moral message is what someone with time travel powers is morally bound to do, etc.)

[@blacksheep6415]

Never played undertale myself but I’ve heard and seen gameplay and whenever you quicksave and make other decisions to save certain people the characters in game call you out for it because they themselves know it’s a game. You’re letting your personal head canon blind you since anyone can watch a few minutes of undertale game footage and find out 80% of what you are saying isn’t 100% accurate

[@zettovii1367]

@@blacksheep6415 Dont recall a moment where they straight up say it's a game. Could you specify?

[@ganeju2_879]

The game never says that monsters are weak, undertale's humans are just strong. They survived a lot that regular children aren't really known for surviving

[@Power-kn6fk]

yes it does, read the book in the librarby

[@rougarabid]

Yes they do. It literally says more than once that all the monsters SOULs in the game combined can’t overpower a single human SOUL. Not Frisk specifically but ANY human SOUL.

[@ganeju2_879]

Yeah all humans are just that much stronger than monsters in UT. Doesn't mean that they're weak just that humans are strong. Again frisk is just a child and has shown feats children don't do ususually.

[@chongwillson972]

@@rougarabid given that apparently 7 random human souls can make a magical barrier that can just be immune to high tech and superhuman strength I don't know how to value a human soul in undertale, since with seven of them a monster can take control of the world.

[@MIAMIPOLICEFILES]

@@rougarabid that does not correlate to physical strength, monsters are not physically weak undyne can suplex a boulder apparently. a human soul just contains more power than any monster soul could. which is why a human soul can live when the human is dead and the monsters souls shatter immediately

[@lukethe_idiot]

alright, so, this is gonna be a long one, because JESUS CHRIST that's a lot of misconceptions about undertale lore. first and foremost: i don't see why people say that Frisk can destroy multiverses or universes or timelines or whatever the fuck. that's just... not true. not even in genocide. _Chara_ destroys the _world, _*_at most._* sure, one could argue that Chara destroys the timeline, but at that point Frisk is unable to do anything to stop them, and it's safe to say that even if we include Chara in Frisk's power, destroying timelines and/or worlds is a Chara thing at a point where they stop collaborating with Frisk. so Frisk is _wholly unable_ to do that. second of all: no, it's _not_ a video game within a video game. it's a world where video game mechanics are very real to the people in the world. my proof? _Flowey._ just _Flowey._ i mean, he is explicity stated at one point in the game to have had access to saving and loading, as he had the most DETERMINATION (which is a word i shall be writing in all caps from this point forward). when Frisk falls to the underground, however, Flowey _loses_ that ability. not because Frisk is the player, but because Frisk has more DETERMINATION than Flowey. if i'm right, Flowey even points out Frisk's unusual amount of DETERMINATION, which - if you've played true pacifist - you'll remember is a _physical substance_ in undertale's world that allows humans - or whoever has it, for that matter - to persist after death to some degree. hell, during the Asriel fight, it's stated that Frisk can't access their save file, which actually tracks considering that during said fight, Asriel has not just six human SOULs absorbed, but the SOULs of all of monsterkind, thus making _Asriel_ the one with the most DETERMINATION. now, you could argue that "oh, monsters can't have DETERMINATION, so they MUST be pretty weak," the only reason monsters can't have DETERMINATION (or at least, not nearly as much as humans) without the use of a human SOUL is because they don't have enough physical matter for that. another thing that is _explicitly stated_ ingame, i believe. don't ask me where though, i haven't played in over a year and i don't feel like digging through literally all of the game's dialogue. and another thing: Sans doesn't quite... _remember_ saves. i mean, yeah, sure, every character remembers stuff that _technically_ hasn't happened yet to _some_ degree, due to the saves, but... well, it goes without saying that just because Sans is more aware of stuff like that and seemingly knows more about the time travel shenanigans, doesn't mean he remembers stuff that hasn't even happened yet (from his perspective) more than anyone else. he might, but it's never really confirmed and i have my doubts it ever will be. now, onto another one of your bigger misconceptions: monsters are _NOT_ weak. not even close. it would be more accurate to say that monster _SOULs_ are weak, but even _that_ would be wrong. monster SOULs are just different from human SOULs, not weaker. sure, it would take all of monsterkind to "equal the power of a human SOUL", but that's more SOUL power than flat-out strength. in all actuality, monsters are a lot stronger than humans in terms of feats. i mean, if Undyne isn't enough to tell you that, just look at Asgore's _stats._ the only reason he doesn't deal as much damage as his ATK stat would imply is because he doesn't really... _want_ to fight. personally, i'd say monster SOULs have the tradeoff of losing SOUL power in exchange for more access to magic, while human SOULs have the vice versa: less magic, but more SOUL power. and saying that humans don't have magic is bullshit, that is a phrase that's contradicted _multiple times_ in the game, _INCLUDING THE INTRO._ so, my synopsis is: humans have magic, just not nearly as much as monsters do. now, what is Frisk's _actual_ strength? well, that depends on which route you're doing. neutral excluded, because let's face it, neutral route Frisk is fuckin dogshit in terms of any means of strength, physical or otherwise. all neutral route Frisk has is the saves, which gets negated by someone having more DETERMINATION than them anyway (as shown with the omega Flowey fight), so it's not even that great. let's start with genocide route Frisk, since that one's the most straight-forward. able to oneshot any monster by that point, but that's debatable since Sans has 1 max hp, and Asgore was probably sparing Frisk when they killed him. killing a monster that's sparing you _always_ results in an instakill. pacifist route Frisk is... complicated. it's hard to say whether their greatest feat during pacifist really matters, because it's not really shown if they keep the ability to do it after the Asriel fight. the feat in question? defying death. no, like, literally just refusing to die. getting fucking murdered and then coming back. getting hit by a hyperbeam and defying the world's logic to be at less than 1 HP but more than 0 HP. more specifically, according to my notes here... 00.0000000001 HP out of 20. something that, quite obviously, shouldn't be possible. the only issue with that is... the Asriel fight is the last fight in the game. henceforth, it's never shown if Frisk is still able to defy death like that. i'd say that, yes, they probably are, but not... _all_ the time. i like to believe they're more able to than having to fight a LITERAL GOD in order to do it, but that's just speculation, so i digress. also, yeah, Frisk fought a literal god, or at the very least, someone with power on par with a god. this someone in question is, of course, Asriel Dreemur, god of hyperdeath (for an hour at most, before losing all six human SOULs (prolly by reviving the dead humans, that's a pretty popular theory) and giving all of monsterkind their SOULs back). all this to say... Frisk's survival chances are a 'maybe' at best, no matter the route. sure, they can time travel, _maybe_ defy death, and i'd argue they can at the very least _resist_ anything that affects their SOUL, but other than that, they're still a fucking _child._ they have the strength of a fucking _child._ they have the durability of a fucking _child._ they have the speed of a fucking _child._ if a cultist dropkicked them hard enough, they'd probably _die_ on the fucking spot. you probably won't see this comment, but yknow, felt like i should specify a few things. P.S.: Frisk is technically genderless. you can assign a gender to them if you want since they're not explicitly non-binary, and they _are_ sorta a blank slate character, but i just wanted to let you know that much.

[@lukethe_idiot]

i can't believe i just spent 20 total minutes writing about _undertale lore._

[@Ieam0309]

@@lukethe_idiot @lukethe_idiot A few things. For one, rather than a matter of strength, I think the 'destroying multiverses' logic goes as follows- Save and load, as well as resets, leave memories in Monsters. Deja Vu for most, downright knowledge for Flowey. But, a 'True Resrt' is the complete remaking of the world. All memories are lost, by every party. Some argue this is achieved by literally discarding the timeline and making a new one- since Chara forces a True Reset im Genocide by destroying the world and remaking it, and based on flavor text for deltarune about save files (if you select a save file to erase, ypu are warned with 'then it will be destroyed', and then click no on the confirmation option, you are told 'then it was spared'). This is pretty much for the Player controlling the red spul, though. For the determination thing- Apphys' True Lab notes explain monster vodies lack the physicality to take large amounts of determination, and will melt if overdosed. The same thing happens to Undyne if you don't motivate her enough and kill her- she melts as she refuses to die for a few turns. As for Monsters... they ARE physically more powerful than humans, but it is explicit they become weaker against humans, due to their semi-tangible bodies being weak to emotions. If they are sparing you, their defense drops- but regardless of that, it is stated that murderous intent lets you ignore their defenses too. This is likely reflected in an unarmored undyne taking 1 damage no matter what in the date because you lacked the will to hurt her, and the fact that Frisk cannot even lift the branch Sans breaks when they can hurt Undyne at level 1, who is able to destroy a fricking bridge.

[@lukethe_idiot]

@@Ieam0309 technically, a true reset is just deleting the save yourself, as opposed to Chara destroying the world and then using your SOUL as a ransom to recreate the world bc at least then you still have your SOUL, but i digress Frisk, themselves, are still unable to destroy anything like a timeline or even a world, even at their most powerful in genocide. as you yourself just said, that was _Chara._ and i don't think i need to remind you what happens when you say 'no deal'. Chara was going to do it either way. they weren't asking if _you_ would do it. they were, in layman's terms, asking if you wanted to go about it the easy way or the hard way. it's at a point where Chara stops collaborating with Frisk. and i'd argue that, even if character A lends their power to character B in some way, if character A only ever does something in situations where they're not collaborating with character B and character A is consistent in doing so, you cannot incorporate that into character B's power. henceforth, no, Frisk cannot do that. just a quick reminder that we're talking about Frisk, not the player. also, i'd leave deltarune save logic _FAR_ away from undertale save logic. clearly they work differently, as there's never any moments of 'character has deja vu about a thing that technically hasn't happened yet'. or, at least, there hasn't been up to this point, to my knowledge. as for the determination thing: that's what i meant by monsters not being about to have nearly as much DETERMINATION as humans, due to their lack of physical matter. Undyne clearly has _some_ level of DETERMINATION, but not enough to affect her physically. unless she reaches 0 HP, of course. now, i should reclarify about the SOULs: yes, monster SOULs are weaker on their own than human SOULs. even a boss monster's SOUL can't be without a body for nearly as long as a human SOUL. and yes, monsters take more damage when someone has murderous intent. but it's not that a monster's defense _drops_ when they're sparing you - they _instantly die_ when attacked while sparing you, _no matter their health._ henceforth, it can easily be stated that Asgore, in offering you some tea at the end of genocide, was sparing you... not that it really mattered. also, the 'can't break the branch, Undyne breaks the bridge' argument doesn't really work. Sans breaks the branch. _Sans_ breaks the branch. *_Sans_* - with his 1 HP, 1 ATK, and 1 DEF - breaks the branch. and Undyne uses a *_spear_* to break the bridge. but that last statement doesn't even matter because Undyne literally suplexes boulders for the sole reason of 'because she can'. Frisk - no matter how you look at it - has the strength of a _child._ sure, a child that can beat the fuck out of all of monsterkind with next to no consequences, but still a _child._ the 'beating up monsterkind' thing stems more from the fact that they're human. Frisk's survival chances in the lands of the old faith are still a 'maybe' at best.

[@Ieam0309]

@@lukethe_idiot I don't think 'Frisk themselves' is a relevant statement. Frisk is a non-actor. The red soul they use, just like Kris', SAVEs with the name the player choses and not their own. We have no idea what Frisk can or cannot do. Even ignoring Deltarune (which I disagree with, the game outright aknowledges YOU are the same person as the one in Undertale, letting you directly reference Undertale stuff like Alphys and Undyne or Sans and Toriel without Kris having any idea, with the characters aknowledging how weird that is), Undertale already sets up the player as the one in control (Pacifist, Flowey asks you, using the player name, to let Frisk live their life- many assume he is talking to Chara, but if you do Pacifist first then Chara has yet to be given your soul's ownership). As for monster durability, eh? It's both, really. The game mechanic is that you always kill them if they are sparing you, but that is because their bodies' vudurability dtopping the morere they don't wanna fight, it's not an on off switch. >Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us. But they will never know the joy of expressing themselves through magic. >Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... Be cruel enough, and you should be able to kill any monster in one hit even if it is not sparing you.

[@lukethe_idiot]

@@Ieam0309 let's say you're right about Frisk not being the player, despite being essentially a blank slate character, or perhaps just above one. that would mean Frisk doesn't have access to the saves, the death-defying, or anything else. that immediately drops Frisk down from 'maybe at best' in terms of survival chances to just being dead. i'm not even kidding. without all this time shenanigans and death defying, Frisk is _just_ a child. do _you_ think a child can survive fighting a cultist in the lands of the old faith? no? then you don't think Frisk, using your own logic, can survive the lands of the old faith. now, let's say you're _wrong_ about Frisk not being the player, since the whole names thing is a fakeout and in all actuality, you're naming Chara. you're not naming the player, or yourself, you're naming _Chara._ Their chances still end up being the same. 'Maybe' at best. and the Flowey moments... hard to say. is there even one after pacifist/true pacifist? if so, are you reciting it correctly? are you just gaslighting me? i have no fucking clue because, as i said before, i will not being digging through every line of dialogue just to find the one you're talking about. some of the Flowey moments are kinda ass for theory crafting, though. as for deltarune... i never said to sever deltarune itself, i said to sever its *_save_* system. not because i don't like it or anything or because i want to be a contrarian, but because it's so obviously _different._ you have multiple files for one, which you _could_ say is in undertale since we see Flowey using multiple files. alright. that's fair. but my biggest point there was that no characters in deltarune get deja vu from loading saves. it just... doesn't happen. not even once. you never even tried to _say_ anything with or against this point. as for the monster durability one, let's just agree to disagree. that one's not going to go anywhere but in a circle, at this rate.

[@MIAMIPOLICEFILES]

I heavily disagree on your takes with undertale Undertale is NOT a digital realm, saving and loading is explained through determination, one trait a human soul can have. Its referred to as saving and loading because that is just the name for it, determination is what causes frisk to be able to save and load.

[@Zekual513]

And sans constantly breaking the fourth wall?

[@Ieam0309]

@@Zekual513 Deadpool does that, I guess Thanos is now fictional? Beside, Sans never actually aknowledges the fourth wall. He in-fact treats it very seriously. The player is referred to as an unknown temporal anomaly. Save and load as a 'special power' that should come with responsibilities, with an in-universe source and otger users of this power. Even stuff like him never giving you a chance to attack is actually achieved by him teleporting you away from the attack button- he could achieve what he claims he will by just teleporting you back when you try to attack him, waiting for you to get bored of it. Toby was a bit particular about that. Undertale is a meta game, but nobody in it ever treats it any less seriously than reality. Sans is depressed because he knows all timelines will end, Flowey went mad with power thanks to SAVE and LOAD, Asgore aknowledges that he killed you before and lilely experienced the same with ither humans. This is continued in Deltarune, where you have three save files (each with minor differences, implying they are outrught timelines) with flavor text that recontextualizes your interaction with them as if you were a god creating and destroying worlds, and the characters recognize and realize someone other than Kris is speaking into their mind when you give them commands, such as Snowgrave Noelle saying 'I can still hear them' if Kris goes down in battle but you keep giving directions to her.

[@Zekual513]

@@Ieam0309 I feel like even if you take the saving a loading through determination route, they still wouldn’t be able to physically do anything, they’re still just a child against much stronger people with magic wielding abilities. They’d just end up dying over and over again until they gave up and let themselves actually die

[@ranmoses2553]

@@Zekual513 Frisk isn't just a child just look at some of their feats: Survived undyne's oven destroying her house. Survived falling to the underground. Dodges lightining bolts and meteors (if you take Napstablook line about light to be true they might even be faster then light) navigated Hotland with no problem, where its hot enough to instantly evaporate water Dream so hard that the dream becames real. Hope so hard that it Reduces any incoming damage temporarily. Can undo their own death even without resets Outruning the hyper goner (something that eat time and space)

[@Zekual513]

@@ranmoses2553 almost all of these are endurance feats, that doesn’t change the fact that they have basically zero strength feats

[@Rocket3830]

Something I think could happen with the gunmancer is that he could make a chaos bullet, it’s a long shot but if the gunmancer can make bullets, then he can invent new ones, just throwing the theory out there.

[@cdesigner9178]

There's no concrete evidence of this being a possibility (and I doubt that the Gunmancer would actively make a bullet of the very thing they swore to stop), but I REALLY like this way of thinking.

[@Robot_972]

A lot of people have already been ranting in the comments, but yeah the Undertale section was atrocious Frisk is not the player. They are two explicitly different people. Some people in the comments are saying the player is Chara, but that’s not true either. They just share names. Undertale is a real verse. They’re self-aware of the game mechanics, but they still exist as a physical world. Monsters are not weak. Monsters stats can just fluctuate based on their emotions, making them incredibly vulnerable if they’re scared or caught off guard. Humans are just that fucking powerful. That is the entire point of the game

[@rougarabid]

I didn’t say Frisk was the player. Prove it because the game literally says otherwise. It would take every monster in the verse to overcome 1 human is a line said several times in the game. So yes, they are weak.

[@Robot_972]

⁠@@rougarabidWhen you say it takes every monster soul to match one human soul, are you talking about Photoshop Flowey and Asriel? Because Flowey also had the 6 other human souls in those forms. Not to mention the, you know, war that occured prior to the events of the game? If a single human could overpower all of monster kind in a time where humans lack magic, then in a time where humans HAD magic, there would be no war. Hell, look at literally any time a player dies in Undertale. Sure doesn’t take every single monster in existence fighting at once to beat the player. And no, the world is not a game in-verse. While it has game-like mechanics in how the world functions, it is explicitly a real world. Deltarune makes this very clear in that the player is being virtually connected to these worlds

[@HyperDash47]

​@@Robot_972 The game DOES state that all monster souls equals one human souls and that not a single human was slain in the war, but ALSO humans had *magic*. Who says monsters are super fuckin weak? The game doesn't say they're weak, it says that they are *weaker* than humans which considering we don't have magic irl, and determination BUFFS monsters that leads me to believe that humans are just stupid strong vs irl humans.

[@Robot_972]

@@HyperDash47 To equal a human soul's determination, sure. But humans are provably not immeasurable stronger than every monster combined. Again, Frisk dies a LOT in Undertale. To the point it's literally a repeated joke in the Sans fight.

[@HyperDash47]

@@Robot_972 also I got that wrong, it said not a single soul was taken, which means they could've killed some, but not fast enough and within the vicinity to grab it before it broke. Also still implied they got washed, but either way still were agreeing on the same point, monsters aren't weak, just weaker than humans

[@cult_of_22]

There's a 90% chance that gunmancer tries to kill leshy because leshy is a chaos God

[@cult_of_22]

"Oh hey what's that tree guy over there?" "Leshy the Bishop of chaos" *loads order bullets* "CHAOS YOU SAY?!"

[@MelonBoi]

@@cult_of_22 *gunmancer pulls out sniper rifle* „better keep track of your head mate, gonna turn it into colored rain“ *tf2 sniper theme plays*

[@Bobjoepickle-g7p]

man I love how every single one of the comments that present an argument for why frisk would be fine rouga doesn’t respond or just says no and then for the others they ask for an argument

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

Ok silly

[@Magrijack]

His argument was in the video.

[@ponbaron8843]

Really good clarification on the soul shenanigans with Undertale humans. That said no, Frisk solos most indie games, more than just erasing them but manipulating fate inside of the fictional realities by the sheer fact that they are an avatar of us, the real humans. The line between fiction and reality blurs with such characters because they are tied to us canonically and act as avatars of real people inside of the fictional INFINITELY lesser realities. Besides being a proxy creature of a being so far far far more complex and powerful humans in Undertale have a loophole of becoming insanely strong which is the combination of a monster and a human soul as seen with Frisk/Chara's stats growing exponentionally each time after they kill a monster and absorb their souls. If there is a chance that cult of the lamb characters can be classified as soul-having monsters then it is a gg, if not then it is a very long and hard battle for Frisk but who should still win in the end cause their determination rewrites fate which means that all Frisk needs to do is keep going even if their oponent is billions of times more powerful. The game reset question is more difficult but knowing lore implications and just how it functions in the grand scheme of the UT universe, I think it is not out of question that Frisk can tap into this omniversal force that rewrites fate, at least fate for video game characters. I think that because we as people are canonical characters in the UT reality and we observe (and in this case interact with) all that is fictional to us, all video game media included, we act as a tie-in between the UT and the TCOTL realities so this mechanic is most probably shared between and effects all fictional to us game media.

[@zarks-heroes]

Admit it your just a cult of the lamb glazer bro

[@kirme8446]

Exactly bro always seems to find an excuse why a character wouldn’t be able to beat the lamb some are valid some aren’t

[@PaulMaldonado-dj4yg]

Elaborate on how he's glazing

[@RandomShtick2]

Well, today I learned there's a game where ya play as a wizard with a gun.

[@Peter-6233]

Pretty sure the Load/Reset is a unique thing to Chara/Frisk as it’s stated when frisk fell down they took the ability to save and load from Flowey… Also bro picked a fight with the most volatile fanbase

[@rougarabid]

Let them come…

[@zarks-heroes]

@@rougarabidthen you will be absolutely wrecked bro

[@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384]

@@zarks-heroesNah he understands the game better than the rest of you wankers.

[@jacobgems]

Other humans can also save and load btw

[@simona7069]

Correct me if im wrong but i dont think undertale is a game within a game i think its a world with game mechanics in the lore bc yeah for them "timelines" are just save files so i would atlest give frisk their ability to have a save point also frisk soul refusing to die against the equivelent to a god is a pretty strong feat

[@Furious_champion]

The sad part is that genocide frisk would do less damage, as monsters in undertale take more damage when you want to hurt them.

[@Andre-c6z]

Yes you are correct Undertale is not a game within a game, its a world that acknowledges that it is a videogame and breaks the 4th wall. No one says that marvel is a comicbook inside a comic book and thus infinitely weaker than any other franchise because Deadpool and Gwenpool break the 4th wall and know that they are inside a comic book.

[@simona7069]

@@Andre-c6z just thought it was easier to say game within a game instead of a game that constantly brings up game elements and sometimes breaks the 4th wall

[@simona7069]

@@Andre-c6z also the marvel comics of gwen pool are canonicaly a comic book within a comic book since shes reading a marvel comic book inside a marvel comic book

[@dhark0n332]

Frisk would be forever stuck unless they just... Reset spam, because they can't even beat the basic guy in cotl, it is very sad​@@Furious_champion

[@dragonturtle2703]

To be fair, that might just be down to how one looks at it. After all, Deadpool says that his universe is a comic book, and the SCP Foundation has some small degree of meta awareness.

[@rougarabid]

It’s not just awareness the world actually operates that way.

[@dragonturtle2703]

@@rougarabid I haven’t played the game, so I’ll take your word on that I guess.

[@CuppaLLX]

Tech Deadpool is on the lower end of things unless he goes full red box he has awareness, but can’t really manipulate it. Gwen and she hulk can manipulate the world and have been seen to jump into the gutters or jump between panels, which is something Deadpool cannot do.

[@dragonturtle2703]

@@CuppaLLX that was more about if being canonically a work of fiction diminishes feats within the thing.

[@zettovii1367]

​@@dragonturtle2703 Everything is fiction though. Only difference is that some stories kinda takes advantage of that in their story telling, while others dont. Undertale is in a way the former, because the story plays around with the idea that the stuff you normally do in RPGs are sorta acknowledged within the story itself.... But the world is never said to be a game actually. It's more like the player is a Gwen Pool like character taking control over an in-universe human, and the other chars can kinda grasp the symptoms of what's happening. But within the setting, they don't treat themselves as fiction, much how the Avengers dont.

[@jamesskaine4877]

So for frisk are we ignoring the endgame stuff, such as Sans explaining how this IS their world, and that Asrael would by definition be at minimum 7x more powerful than frisk due to the 7 souls thing, and then frisk beat it

[@rougarabid]

I never said it wasn’t there world. It’s just not a real world. This comment doesn’t make sense you can’t say Asrael is 7 times stronger than Frisk AND Frisk beat it. Clearly Asrael wasn’t 7 times stronger then.

[@conormgh4232]

@@rougarabid kinda does make sense, frisk "talked" asriel out of killing them, frisk never threw a single punch nad even if they did, it would do literally nothing.

[@7259Also]

@jamesskaine4877 Frisk did not beat Asriel, they just sorta survived him long enough for him to stop attacking

[@zettovii1367]

​@@7259Also He didnt just survive Asriel, he convinced him to stop fighting. Frisk pretty much wasnt trying to fight him, but resolve the problem peacefully.

[@zettovii1367]

​​@@rougarabid Frisk beat Asriel in terms of determination, not really in a fight. Technically Asriel killed Frisk over and over and over again during that whole encounter, and he can do it pretty much instantly. Thing though is that due to Frisk's power of determination, he was effectively immortal (he literally refused to die) , and could Talk no Jutsu the monster god into stopping the violence. Edit: Along with freeing the other souls Asriel had absorbed, by reaching into each of them spiritually.

[@seanwuzhere12]

I don’t agree with the Frisk take. I think you’re taking it too literally. It would be like saying marvel characters are so much weaker compared to everything because Deadpool and She Hulk know they’re in a comic and constantly say it and ask the writers to do things to help them out. 4th Wall awareness doesn’t make characters weak.

[@rougarabid]

No this goes beyond a meta awareness. The rules of the universe and how it works are actually that of a video game. The Save System is literally stated to be how the player brings Frisk back to life, the timelines are directly stated to be save files, etc. Marvel doesn’t do that.

[@seanwuzhere12]

@@rougarabid yeah but several games do that, another example being guacamelee but it’s because it’s self aware. Not even every character in both those games know they’re in a game tho, it’s only certain characters which is why I used the marvel example. Deadpool and She Hulk know they’re in a comic book, zatana from DC as well, they have all asked the writers for support or the readers because they know that the writers/readers have all the power just like how certain characters know the player has power over the game. I personally don’t feel it’s fair to scale frisk that way because I feel it’s taking it too literally and essentially nerfing the character but I’m not going to say you’re wrong for your view on it, I just don’t agree.

[@Ieam0309]

​@@rougarabidYes, but all of these mechanics are taken seripusly and aknowledged as laws of reality. Saving and loading isn't just the power of the player- whoever has most determination gets to do it, and Flowey steals this power from you at the climax. This is like arguint LitRPG fantasy books are video game worlds in a story.

[@zettovii1367]

@@seanwuzhere12 It kinda also beats the point of this challenge imo, because it doesn't not only bring the character at their best, but makes them weaker than default. Who is even interested in stuff like that? If Frisk is getting washed, then at least have the character get washed with their usual set of abilities, if you are not going to bother giving them end game stuff like the rest of the challengers. I'd say.

[@zettovii1367]

@@rougarabid Also question, how would you deal with Fantasy characters that got an RPG-like system for their supernatural abilities? Will you also just ignore 90% of the stuff they can do because it's "game mechanics" and only have them join these challenges in a nerfed state?

[@TheOneGuy1111]

Shantae does not turn into Nega-Shantae by being exposed to dark magic. The first iteration of Nega-Shantae was her magical half becoming dark through enslavement to Risky, and the second iteration happened through a machine Risky specifically designed to turn good things evil. In fact, (spoiler) twice in the series she's purified dark magic, purifying her own lost magic by collecting it in Pirate's Curse, and purifying the entire genie realm using the Mimic's magical polarizer in Half-Genie Hero. This is not to say she wouldn't end up becoming Nega-Shantae in this scenario, but it would take more than just being exposed to dark magic.

[@errorcringyname4044]

My two nitpicks on the undertale bit is you assume undertale humans equal our humans. Thats like saying dragon ball characters are human level because krillin can fight them. I'm not gonna dispute any of the other nitpicks on power scaling there. The other bit is that saving and loading are time manipulation. It just happens to share a name with game mechanics. (I still love your videos though. Just trying to bring a different perspective thats hopefully more reasonable than other undertale fan responses.)

[@bottyuup6885]

Honestly, Frisk making it past any real big hitters is impressive as hell, seeing as at the end of the day, he's just a kid.

[@kenrock7227]

7:22 just gonna ignore the fact 4 other humans have died there and the fact humans believed monsters to be a threat to start a war over

[@hollowthevoid1946]

I'm curious if Sonic the Hedgehog, BASE FORM ONLY, could win. No chaos emeralds, just his own little stash of rings and speed. Technically speaking, Sonic did start out as an Indie title.

[@Power-kn6fk]

Base Sonic is comfortably universal or above

[@opadrip]

Use Classic Sonic to make things more interesting.

[@Lego_sun_wukong]

Are we talking about Archie sonic, the game sonic or the movie sonic?

[@Power-kn6fk]

@@opadrip Pretty sure Classic Sonic still has mftl speeds from Sonic CD. He's too broken to even consider putting in CoTL

[@nisansparow3390]

@@hollowthevoid1946 the best way to go about this is to not use classic or modern Sonic, both are universal and confirmed to have infinite speed at this point thanks to generations. That's not even me bringing up Sonic CD where it's confirmed that the gameplay mechanics of time travel "future" and "past" are not actually gameplay mechanics but either an ability or his speed.

[@yoriavila4308]

This is...the first and only time I've ever heard someone interpret Frisk in this way (and it's admittedly...really bad). Let's see how you wiggle out of this one with a game that's been analyzed to death for a lot longer than Hollow Knight.

[@rougarabid]

So far people have just been responding like you. Saying I’m wrong but refusing to give arguments as to how, so I haven’t had to wiggle out of anything.

[@yoriavila4308]

@@rougarabid I'm not a debater, and frankly I don't have the time right now (I'm on a train and I saw you on my recommendation some time ago). If you want me to dip my toes then you're gonna have to wait a bit or wait for someone who's more versed in Undertale to comment.

[@jaydencrooks5064]

​@@rougarabida lot of comments you respond to reply to you do you read the replies if so then that's cool

[@Demiourge_Official]

@@rougarabid read the replies you've been getting. And respond to them. We can get a nice debate going on in this comment section where we might both learn something.

[@toad-Mosaic]

@@rougarabid as hundreds of my brothers and sisters have said: U N D E R T A L E I S N O T A G A M E W I T H I N A G A M E I T J U S T H A S P O W E R S T H A T A R E I N T E R P R E T E D B Y T H E G A M E A S V I D E O G A M E M E C A N I C S

[@Yahng1109]

I love these type of videos, keep up the good work 👍

[@luizbiel2317]

Leshy: *breathes* Gunmancer: and I took that personally

[@neglic4118]

i just dont agree with the take that monsters are weaker than a human child, it wouldnt exactly have been a war and would have taken 7 of the strongest magicians to make the barrier, thing is will and willpower in the undertale universe is an extremely important concept, with enough willpower/determination frisk can beat any monster or human, the thing is that frisk is infused with our determination to do something, cuz if u dont have enough willpower to beat an enemy you will simply stop playing, but i also agree that chara is one of the only 2 canonical universe destroyer, stated to literaly destroy the universe at the end of a genocide route using the power of the souls, so human souls are more powerfull than monster souls, but monsters can inately use the power of their souls, while humans can, that power is magic in undertale, its also the reason why every monster has different attacks, also every game universe is digital, i mean they cant exactly break the 4th wall, so its not fair to say their universe is inherintly weaker

[@neglic4118]

frisk cant reset the universe, player can

[@neglic4118]

ok, its not a fair arguement at ALL to put frisk in a universe when frisk is literaly just a shell for the players feelings and emotions, our determination is frisks determination, with enough will you can canonicaly tank/resist/kill anything, in pacifist run frisk tanks a blast that could destroy an entire world, and with enough will he can move even when a being with the power equvilant or larger than god tries to restrain him

[@Wisdombird]

Oh baby! The Cult episodes were what got me watching this beautiful man to begin with. Anyways, SURVIVAL CHALLENGE 14 OF TYPING OUT “fictional monster hunters vs the wacky horrifying shit in Monster Hunter” I’m committed even though I don’t really care if I never see this happen

[@bojidarvladev4890]

You mean Geralt of Rivia vs Astalos

[@Wisdombird]

I just really want to see how Geralt would've overcome the tougher monsters instead of him just fighting one of his old friends, the leshen, in the crossover lmao

[@vincentlorenz4480]

I'm so sorry but I don't agree with the undertale one The world isn't a video game It just has video game logic Yes some characters Reset But the character named flowery Had that ability Over the course of his Story He slowly saw the World As a video game And frisk wouldn't lose their reset abilities It's connected to who has the most determination That's how reset works Other people had it before frisk Like I said before flowery ( I used Text To speech Please be nice) Also, if it ia frisk that's doing a Genocide run They kill something and then they get stronger from love Then they level up Eventually they will be stronger Then most Things I don't know about the strongest Things in This world ( And yes, leveling up is a thing in this world.Flowery and sans talk about it) Also frisk wouldn't be alone chara is connected to their soul in the video game So they would be Here true reset doesn't destroy the world It just resets everyone's memories to 0 ( Kinda) It's the Genocide ending where that Happens Though that only happens because of chara

[@mastermalice4705]

Undertale isn't just a digital game, its more like us using a screen to interact with a different world. Also, it isn't Frisk messing with files, its them manipulating actual timelines, they call them things like save files, but that's very heavily implied to just be a convenient simplification to make it more easily understood. And its not really that monsters are weak, they are, but the humans in undertale are not at all like your typical human, all humans in undertale are incredibly powerful being that can manipulate time and do many things we can't, its heavily implied the only reason the other children lost to Asgore just because they eventually gave up, after he killed them a bunch of times. Its actually straight up shown that monsters are much more powerful than any irl human.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

They don't actually call them save files; just SAVEs. Which is most likely an acronym for something because that's how Underale handles anything that in ALL CAPS.

[@Ranwit809]

Your right, but you aren’t. yes it is a game within a game. but if that’s true then the cotl universe isn’t fighting frisk from undertale they’re fighting frisk from the game inside of undertale. which hey just might be a indie game as well

[@Ranwit809]

And another thing you said that frisks determination power would still go to the cotl universe. which mean they would be immortal because in fight against Asriel dremur frisk can’t die because they’re to determined. which means if frisk really hates lambs they would be to determined to die.

[@jacobgamboa6707]

Everyone in the comments: Undertale blah blah, screw u he's got determination blah blah Me thinking of Shantae: .............🤤🤤

[@chongwillson972]

11:45 I am sorry but the player is simply not confirmed to be cannon to undertale, there wouldn't be such an argument for and against if it was. people even more of this problem with deltarune, though even there "the player is in the game" is still just a theory even though people still treat it cannon weirdly.

[@rougarabid]

Yes he is. They literally describe the SAVE System as being a way the Player can bring Frisk back. There are even times when characters like Flowey speak directly to the player.

[@chongwillson972]

@@rougarabid the save system which flowery uses a bunch, the same thing the past human soul's had, did the player was there too?

[@N3XU5-t5k]

Flowey on the true pacifist ending even use the words "You, the player"

[@yspy_1801]

@@rougarabid This save system was a power that flowey had before... It's not something controlled by a player, it's a power given by the Determination Soul

[@zettovii1367]

​​@@rougarabid It easily could just be meta stuff though. Within the story of Undertale, you are in a world with real people with souls. The characters themselves may use terms like SAVE, LV and EXP... But they never actually say that their world is a game within the story. Just treated as other things, like Level of Violence or Execution Points. Anyhow, considering that the point of this challenge is to see how the guest characters would do at their best in the host world... Dont you think it's a massive cop-out to just dismiss the vast majority of a character's arsenal, without really even going into how they'd interact with the peeps of the host world?

[@Broken-Banana]

God I wish I could use determination to go back in time and save this man from having to interact with undertale fans

[@motmot_is_watching]

Video Idea: Could these si-fi protagonist survive in the world of Cyberpunk 2077?

[@unitfifty-five7372]

More so the cyberpunk universe/table top Has alot more stuff from ACPA , and other source books to get info on 😮

[@Lobotomy_Paitent]

You should put Deltarune in the next “who can survive COTL” video because Kris (your character) canonically can save and reload because it’s shown that Kris already had a save file when you save for the first time. They aren’t as strong as in-universe Frisk though.

[@MoSoda]

Frisk i feel would be the same type of contender as the gunmancer, with just different tricks. The key point in that tho is that the power of determination also includes in it the power to save and load. One of the characters, Flowey, has determination due to a freak experiment, and in such HAD the ability to save and load to frick around the people of the underground. I say HAD cus apparently if someone more determined, like frisk, comes into the picture the privilegy is just given away. Though flowey still reacts and observes whenever the player/frisk go back and do something else cayse they didnt like the outcome. This is wwhy Flowey got the mentality of "Kill or be killed". With that in mind i feel that Frisk would be a mostly neutral being with the ability to go back to a specific point back in time they choose, and only that point till they make a new one forwards. I say neutral cus from the pilgrim comic and the official ones we see that not all creatures are a)outward hostile and b)even aligned to the main forces like the old faith or lamb. Maybe they will go from place to place, a person to person to either help them with menial tasks for food and shelter. Sort of like the pilgrim comic story! Plus their determination and ability to save/load will give them some lee way to probe the creatures of the lands of the old faith to understand and deal with them better! Atleast thats my two cents if i dont type out the whole Lv and Exp thing. Great video tho!

[@arkhamcreed4326]

Pretty sure that Shantae and Wilson from Don't Starve will live long and productive lives...as members of Lamb's cult. Both have basically no defense against indoctrination, and both are too wildly useful to be sacrifices. Wilson is getting one of those necklaces that make you never need to sleep and will be put to work 24/7, while Shantae is...look, the fact that the polyamorous trait exists in Cult of the Lamb means that harems are expected if not encouraged, and Shantae already has the uniform. Those two have "disciple" written all over them, so at least they'll have status among the other brainwashed cultists.

[@CheddahSlammer]

Aren't you ignoring cult of the Lamb in the case of Frisk, its a game just like Undertale, just because the characters in that game aren't aware of it doesn't make it any less of a game world. For example you take away powers that Frisk has because the player uses them, but the Lamb works the same way. Both characters literally need a player to walk them around and use their abilities, but you Nerf Frisk because the abilities the player allows him to use are beyond broken which would break the match up. Honestly the match up shouldn't be a thing. Your trying to equalize it, but if you equalize both game, both character won't literally work with out a player playing them.

[@ntdb0ss]

For gunmancer, it sounds like the order bullet should be able to fight the corruption in cult of the lamb. It literally degrades the bishop followers into crazed zombie like fenatics. If the bullet is so specifically anti caos it shouldn't be able to fix a broken tv, so it seems to me that the order bullet is more like restoration.

[@ntdb0ss]

Hold up.... by this logic if it hits lamb enough times it would undo his godhood.

[@rougarabid]

It’s shown capable of fixing the Shattered which is the Earth broken into billions of pieces on top of destroying Chaos.

[@RedX03]

Honestly you might be the only one to explain the one flaw of undertale power scaling properly so kudos to you however there is just one thing I’m curious about. We see in the final fight that frisk just flat out has the ability to refuse death. Granted it’s been awhile so I could be missing something.

[@rougarabid]

No he does which is why I said there are dozens of ways he can die that aren’t by regular death means. Being banished to a hell dimension or turned into a bug being 2 examples I brought up.

[@RedX03]

@@rougarabid oh lol I guess I missed that, thanks for explaining have a nice day

[@zettovii1367]

@@rougarabid Dont think transforming Frisk into another animal would necessarily rob their powers though, cause they are bond to Frisk's soul, not the body, and Frisk has a level of soul resistance where not even a godlike being who can steal the souls of everobody else effortlessly on top of warping space and time, - can ever affect Frisk's soul.

[@patryk7071]

Bro transmoge works so frisk isnt human soul also change with power of transmoge ​he will not be human in soul or in body@@zettovii1367

[@Ieam0309]

@@rougarabid neither of those stops them from going back in time though?

[@adomskishortinski9130]

while i don't think frisk themselves has the ability to erase the universe. mostly due to that only being an option when making a deal with the "devil" (chara). they can at least reset and save mostly due to the fact that flowey can. the evidence for this is shown in the genocide run when flowey tells you about how he can through determination but was unable to after frisk fell. as for the strength of monsters it isn't entirely clear but is at least implied they are stronger then your average real life human being shown picking up and throwing massive objects (the ice blocks the one wolf man in snowdin throws into the river showing this isn't uncommon for monsters to have large amount of strength and undine casually suplexing boulders even if the size of the bolder isn't specified) and at least wall to building level destruction feats (toriel was going to destroy the exit to the ruins and undine destroys a part of a bridge granted it isnt shown how much of it). however i still think they get capped at really anyone who has mind manipulation mostly do from what i know they can't resist it. also i think the main reason that it says 1 human can kill every monster is mostly due to the humans in this universe having some form of save and reset. granted thats mostly implied through conversations with asgore and him not being very surprised about you telling them that they had killed frisk before and with sans mostly through him outright guessing the number of times he's killed you showing that this isnt unknown to the both of them. asgore most likely being told the same before by other the other human children and sans having some sort of device that shows "timelines" (saves and resets). sorry if this was a bit disorganized

[@NABIL-uk4zz]

i mean followy could save the game while not using the player soo i think that mean its normal for frisk to do that too with out need of the player

[@schuylernuckolls5191]

7:10 no human in the history of undertale/deltarune has absorbed a monster soul, they only theorized that they could absorb a BOSS monster soul ie: asgores soul

[@stickman207]

"I don't just bring universe destroyers on this list" The Terrarian: But actually when it comes to Frisk; they're not universe destroyers, but they do fairly outscale most if not all of CotL 1. It's never acknoweldged that they are actually in a video game. Theirs a lot of meta story telling, and they continue to use the terms "SAVE" and "RESET" but they believe the whole world real. The closest you get is Flowey talking to you post game, but even then it's fairly implied YOU are Frisk, or atleast the red soul. Further, if the player was the only being aware/capable of doing so, explain Flowey. There's no universe between us and Undertale. 2. Humans are much stronger then the monsters, but Frisk does stand out as exceptionally strong, if all Undertale Humans were as strong as Frisk, Asgore could've never captured the 6 human souls. We also see Toriel scale to minimum Wall level (Destroying the exit to the ruins) and Undyne scaling to Low Small Building (Destroying the bridge). 3. When it comes to File Manipulation and Save data that the characters can affect in the real world (i.e Chara permanently being stuck in your files), it's treated as high reality manipulation, and in Undertale's case, screwing with timelines. Frisk does have these hax. 4. Frisk does resist Soul destruction, we see them do so at the end of True Pacifist, they literally piece their soul back together. Granted, Frisk's only AP is *maybe* destroying the Undertale verse, which could mean Mountain level at a lowball and Universal at the biggest wank possible. And they have 0 speed feats.

[@mystrenula3911]

The best speed feat for Frisk is that he can dodge a lightning attack

[@zettovii1367]

@@stickman207 Frisk never destroys anything as he goes pacifist the whole way through. In fact, their AP is at the absolute weakest unit of 1... Although it seems capable of ignoring enemy durability somehow, if you count the Photoshop Flowey fight. Chara on the other hand, now that entity erases entire worlds... But it seems conditional because they never do so freely.

[@stickman207]

​@@zettovii1367 Frisk is implied to be the one who destroys the world; "Let us destroy this meaningless world and move on to the next." And also, it seems Frisk is at their strongest at the end of geno and not pacifists. In the Photoshop Flowey fight, it's neutral, the game doesn't check your LOVE before the fight, so it guesses.

[@zettovii1367]

@@stickman207 Except Chara the demon doesn't seem to talk to Frisk, but the player directly. And they only destroy the world when getting access to all 6 human souls.

[@stickman207]

@@zettovii1367 1. Frisk and the player are heavily implied to be the same being; namely with Deltarune drawing the line between Kris and the player to contrast it 2. They don't get acsess to the 6 human souls, only a monster can absorb human souls, and the last monsters who could (Flowey and Asgore) are killed.

[@Hayloskien]

Not knocking your logic, but after 4 videos, I've got to ask. Do you see no chance that someone would take and use one of the crowns?

[@CorporalCargopants1749]

The undertale fandom NEEDED that kick in the balls, thank you for being brave enough to say it Rouga

[@shardinhand1243]

crazy thing is that the devs of cult of the lamb like doing cross overs with other well known games adding theyre characters or items to cult of the lamb so its vuagly possible in some future update for us to see shantae in cult of the lamb..., and boy did this not go how i thought it was gonna go, i basicly called shantae a low level reality warper or matter manipulator using that city restoring feat, but the man makes afair point, its a one of thing thats never used again and anything the devs abandon, the fans have to consider decanonized for better or worse, and yeah without that feat shantaes power drops pretty hard. also big thanks to whoever got rouga to cheak out shantae fun character great games... a little on the easy side but still fun.

[@Iamaperson-f3r]

17:58 ... I mean... It's not completely out of the question.

[@GreenRobber-hq4ik]

I need to see Peppino Spaghetti show up in one of these (also maybe a Gustavo and Brick mention, maybe even The Noise because of the Noise Update)

[@akramirez]

Bro out here writing Undertale fanfiction

[@justagundam]

Imagine one of the most powerful beings in the Indie game space being a furry.

[@dalwaydalway5085]

With what I’m seeing in these comments are saying like cult of the lamb is a video game so removing frisk’s powers doesn’t make sense which I can understand but eventually frisk will just give up like what the other humans have done. You can see that other human could reset but gave up cause when you die to asgore and act it says you tell asgore that he has killed you multiple time ne nods sadly which proves my point

[@MrPikaGammer]

Considering you like doing Indie Game Challenges here might a decent one, Hotline Miami.

[@GunthersLoyalSoldier1307]

Ha! Take that, Undertale fandom!

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

The TikTok scalers in shambles

[@The-Soul-C0llector]

As long Frisk has enough determination he can always come back and Asrael is literally called the God of Death

[@schuylernuckolls5191]

8:05 btw the need 7 to break barrier, literally 6 humans have died before hand, and they (monsters) found that determination can make one more powerful, not their souls, its just the type of magic is way to powerful for them to naturally overcome the issue they face in game

[@erikcat2.036]

No undertale ingame is a living, breathing world. Save load and reset are gained through DETERMINATION. the human souls have DETERMINATION the monster spuls don't. Also frisk uses they/them as well do the goat and the lamb.

[@shaunhayes4614]

12:04 Another thing to say that frisk should have saved and load Is flowery had save and load and he isn't connected to the player. This proves, this is in universe concept.

[@WadetheBadger]

Am I the only one gonna call hypocrisy on out delightful host here? Frisk literally LITERALLY beats a God in his game. In a universe where Seven human souls matches the power of the PLAYER. So, Frisk can and has fought a DEATH GOD. So, is Frisk gonna beat Lamb and/or Goat...probably not. But, Rouga was intentionally doing the exact thing he claimed the UT fans were doing, but in the opposite direction. Also, I for the life of me cannot figure out where in UT it ever calls their universe a digital one. I literally reread the whole transcribed script of the game. It is never claimed to be digital. The PLAYER is in fact claimed to be a being over the game, but the universe is not viewed as any less real for it. So, hard cap on that one. If you just don't like and don't want UT to win, I'd rather you just admit it, then make up crap for no reason.

[@ahmedash5707]

Well welcome to the club I'm also very angry about the old hk one

[@Churroseaten]

Frisk may have won against Asriel but it wasn’t from strength or powers (except for extremely high pain tolerance). They just reached into his memories and reminded him of his past (mainly due to Asriel thinking Frisk was Chara). During the entire fight, Frisk can do no damage to him. So while they won it was only because of a mixup.

[@turtleburger5]

Well, that is the nature of an interpretive game like undertale. Frisk the character never really pulls off most of the higher feats in the game, they never defeat Omega flowey, rather they awaken the souls in Omega Flowey against them. They never defeat asriel and in fact are completely incapable of dealing damage to them, again they awaken the souls inside them and cause Asrael to feel. The greatest durability feats frisk has is having A soul as durable as SIX souls are aggressive. As for the genocide feats, again Chara is the one that's responsible for that. That being said, the greatest offensive feats that Frisk has is, PHYSICALLY cutting undying (in full plate armor) clean in half, and doing an unspecified amount of damage to Mettaton NEO (a Fullmetal robot), that was at the very least, the bare minimum to make them explode. People definitely overscale how strong the world of undertale is, but on that note He definitely did UNDERscale it.

[@Nvbo_]

I disagree but I ain’t gonna write an essay because I don’t care enough. but i care enough to share my opinion

[@NicholasChaney-d5v]

I’m sorry, why do you care?

[@IBZogTheGreat]

As much as it’s not implied you and I know that cotl is as much as a game as ut, it goes down to if the lamb or frisk has more determination, and considering the lamb has no implied extra determination other than him being the main character that would be frisk, then it wouldn’t be the lamb controlling the save files it would be frisk

[@goofygoof9907]

You know at first I was wondering how Shantae would work with the whole wife thing considering she is much larger and not really animal, before I remembered her transformations which could make anything work.

[@Immrfennel]

The fact that frisk can save is explained in universe not as a game mechanic but as in universe power flowey could save and load and the player isn’t playing as him The game of undertale could be interpreted in two different ways one is in universe and one is out of it The game mechanics of Undertale are explained in universe so throughly that even the narration is explained by an almost confirmed theory Of course the narration is in the game for the players sake but it is explained in universe That being said it’s implied in out of game content that saving and loading can’t only be done in the underground:(

[@Immrfennel]

So in the end frisk still wouldn’t have their powers of saving and loading but because of a different reason

[@Immrfennel]

Flowey doesn’t speak to the player he speaks to chara because he thinks that the human that fell down is chara In the meta narrative he speaks to the player but in universe he speaks to chara

[@Immrfennel]

The game’s developer made sure that every thing that could be taken as meta (the player, saving and loading, breaking the fourth wall,) Could be explained in universe It’s one of the coolest facts about undertale

[@zemufinman1639]

9:18 Yeah and the player sitting on the couch also controls every action the lamb does as well because hes in a video game

[@thefluffyassimp5558]

This video is so big chungus awesome sussy supreme but have you gone for the other endings to undertale? just asking for a friend?

[@chillspace7195]

Bro why you so fixated on the hole shantae slave thing?😂

[@SephirothMurphy]

In the game the Graveyard Keeper can respawn and is a real thing the game state because the goblin in the game gets mad you have that skill of redirection

[@chisito6]

guys since rougara bird didnt do if he would survive i will,first frisk its just a kid he would pass pretty much unoticed by the cults and others, he would defintly keep his head low and whit their ability to talk his way out of problems, he would be able to resist a loong time if he stay in his own little spot, if we take out the load and save soo frisk isnt invincible, he would still be a little superior than the other cirtters,cue to his determination to keep going, and that he can gain XP from killing enemies if nesecary,he would managed to become stronger,but when it comes to 1v1ing main characters like the bishops and the lamb he would be quite literally a human version of the lamb,undertale is very complicated,alternate timelines,meta powers,and more, it will heavily depend on the route,soo any other sugestions are welcome,its would be pretty cool.

[@antiheartless45]

I am an undertale fan and i wasn't mad because i saw this coming a mile away from the thumbnail and i agree with what you said honestly wished you had someone else more interesting in place of frisk the undertale verse isn't strong enough for this challenge.

[@rougarabid]

There’s 4 parts to this video and counting. It was just a matter of time before I got to him.

[@antiheartless45]

@rougarabid yep I know but I love these videos I love seeing and learning about who would survive keep it up dude.

[@AnonymousNameHere]

Rouga, I love you and your content bro. I’m so glad I found your channel a while back. I have enjoyed every second of your videos. Thank you

[@Nerqie]

bro the whole frisk section made no sense ik people are alr gonns flood in to let you know youre wrong about it. it felt like you were just pulling shit out your ass for that section

[@rougarabid]

That’s not an argument.

[@thealternatives2898]

as an Undertale fanatic..he was mostly correct on everything

[@Nerqie]

@@rougarabid wasn't supposed to be

[@asuraofwrath]

@@rougarabid i have yet to see you respond to any comments giving you actual arguments which there are quite a few that go in depth

[@ashtongiertz8728]

​@@thealternatives2898no, he was wrong about how determination works. It doesn't affect physical stats (except possibly durability given how Frisk falls from high places twice without being injured.) there are no mechanics in Undertale for increasing physical stats besides what weapon you use. Leveling up only works on monsters because of how their mostly-magic bodies reacts to killing intent.

[@thethundernado6670]

You are definitely misunderstanding the humans in Undertale. They are far stronger than real life humans. Like the strength difference between us and Undertale humans are not even close. So putting the Undertale monsters behind human level is not just wrong, it’s stupid.

[@rougarabid]

A human (the player) is literally controlling Frisk as his puppet interacting with the world and is spoken of as a godlike being throughout the story so no they are not stronger. They are considerably weaker.

[@thethundernado6670]

@@rougarabidwhat? How does controlling someone’s actions affect their AP?

[@iamspringtrap223]

Counterpoint on Undertale: The SAVE file exists within the Soul. Is it a weak argument? Yes, we have no proof of that. But it's still counterargument I wanted to put out

[@Ungoonda]

Where is respect for peppino and Gentleman Theodore Noise

[@topherclay6131]

Oh wow I missed this one. I needed a distraction from my team letting me down.

[@notatheory875]

AND HE DEFEATED THE GOD OF Fing DESTRUCTION

[@nisansparow3390]

(5:15) yes they are in a game... however to assume that this game is just that, therefore doesn't have any of these powers is kind of disingenuous... It's like saying characters from Star wars can't break out again jutsu from Naruto because they don't have chakra... It's a logical fallacy. Do we look at marvel comics and say they're a comic book within a comic book because Deadpool can break the fourth wall? Like what does that even mean? In the world of undertale everything is real to everyone in the game, therefore we must treat it as so. Also I played the game and I never really saw anyone refer to the game as well as a game other than flowey or Toby himself but people forget that this is a forth wall breaking game... Let's give off an example: Dragon Ball super heroes (I think that's what it's called), everything in that game is actually a game within a game. You get to play as beat who is a card player inside game, dragon Ball characters like Goku are all cards pieces... But beat enters such a world he ends up being one of the most powerful characters in the game. Scalers place this as dimensional tearing, which actually explains a lot considering that there are dragon Ball characters so powerful that they end up in the real world in said game. The point I'm making is... You can't say frisk can't use this ability just because you say it's a game mechanic, because we get multiple accounts of characters actively supporting that this is time manipulation. just because the monsters are said to be weaker humans doesn't mean that the humans in their world are as equal as humans in our world. This is a logical fallacy... A better way to have this as a somewhat survival challenge is by choosing which frisk we're using here, and what level they are at. Cuz depending on which route the player takes they either get a true reset, erase everything or neither. Enable to do any of these things certain thresholds must be met, enable you to erase everything you have to kill every monster because that's the only way to reach to level 20. By the end of the pacifist route you gain abilities that you're never shown in game earlier on. The neutral route doesn't necessarily do any of these, you still fight flowey who himself is quite on OP his own. But it still wouldn't be much of a survival challenge at this point would it, but still if this is a one-sided match I'd rather it be honest than make something look weaker than it actually is.

[@Andre-c6z]

Someone gets it.

[@Zekual513]

Awww shit, here we go again

[@notatheory875]

BUT ALSO THEY ARE NOT IN A VIDEO GAME IN CANON AS IN CANON SAVING AND RESETTING ARE JUST NAMES OF THE ABILITIES

[@philipsgrignoli7866]

Thank you so much for covering Shantae in this series and being so complimentary about her and her games. I think you hit the nail on the head with most of your coverage. For speed feats her dodging multiple lightning bolts at a time probably should have been mentioned as a more consistent indicator than afterimages. You are absolutely correct that the wish granting is an outlier that occurred because she has such an abundance of magic at that time in that story. The only thing that might be a factor but not a significant one is that when she beats Nega-Shantae, the only part left of her is her light magic and she isn't corrupted anymore in the slightest. This does not suggest she can't be again of course but it does imply it would not recur easily in her story. I also do feel that rather than fight the entire Cult universe she would try to figure out how to get back home and take as many creatures not indoctrinated in cults as she could with her, but that's just my opinion. Fantastic video as always.

[@JRsomeone]

I think you just opened a can of worms with undertale I think it’s more complicated then that

[@kenrock7227]

Frisk has the power of reseting them selfs as well we play as frisk thats why we have the power not the other way around. If you want proof flowey had the ability as well despite the player. And even ignoring that frisk still has multiverse level durability and soul hax resistance due to asriel full power not being able to kill or take there soul. Cult of lamb is galaxy level if pushed hard enough

[@dragonturtle2703]

Not sure if these would fit, but they are indi games IIRC: Factorio Mindustry Cosmoneer Rimworld (guess just transplant a colony or something) Oxygen Not Included (again, guess a whole colony).

[@Hunter-pv5vm]

I am very curious to find out how far rain world characters would get since they are used to being in an unfair environment

[@Martyke]

​@rougarabid they say all of monster soul equal to one human soul and if we say monster are weak in their universe there are monster can control fire like asgore and some of them have soul manipulation like sans also we can't say human were weak in the opening we saw a human having a fire spear and they seal the monster so magic is a element that both can use

[@jakbluhd]

I always thought Frisk/Chara was like Neo from The Matrix, someone who became so powerful in the digital world they gained power in the real one.

[@christopher8663]

This might just be because I'm confused, but when fighting omega flowey, flowey steals the save file, and frisk can revive themselves through their determination. Or am I just stating a game mechanic???

[@Valburn3586]

If you have not yet, play IN STARS AND TIME. Its an amazing indie game with great story, characters and has one if not the greatest depictions of time loops.

[@kingmagikarp97]

I wonder if flowey himself would do good in cult of the lamb?

[@omereltayeb7711]

I mean bro basicly became a god of fkn hyper death🤷‍♂️

[@thedarknessinthelight9824]

You've missed a few things within the story of Undertale since you've said you were so focused on that part. You ignored the fact that Asgore was able to overpower and kill 6 humans prior to meeting Frisk, which implies THERE IS a difference in strength between human-souls. You ignored the abilities that Frisk gained in True Pacifist, where Frisk is able to refuse death against the God of Hyper-Death Asriel, who had absorbed not only ALL of the monster souls, but also 6 HUMAN SOULS along with them to fight Frisk (basically when they're the most determined). There's also the fact that Genocidal Frisk deals more damage to you the more they want to kill you and if they're allowed to start off with their strongest equipment, then they should be able to deal with enough low-tier enemies and mini-bosses to atleast stand up against the 4 pillars and his food that'll not only help keep him satiated when in combat with the famine entity, but also heal damage dealt to him (same for both versions), not mentioning Chara, who'd act as a secondary attacker incase Frisk misses any strikes. There's also the fact that with True Pacifist comes Frisk's ability to "SAVE" people (not talking about files), which would allow him to resonate with those he befriended or has a connection with that'd allow him to help revert those corrupted or under mind-control to return to their senses. This also allows him to face attacks that should eviscerate him head on and stand ten-toes, as seen with Asriel's all-out attack. He'd still most likely lose to the giant mountain or The Lamb/Goat, but he's not dying to a basic bitch, since he isn't a basic bitch either.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

The genocide strength thing wouldn't apply in CotL because it works due to monsters in Undertale being mostly made of magic.

[@thedarknessinthelight9824]

@@ashtongiertz8728 Hmmm?

[@ashtongiertz8728]

@@thedarknessinthelight9824 in Undertale, it is established that LV is about mindset, not physical strength. It increases damage because monsters are made of magic and vulnerable to negative emotions. In CotL, everyone's flesh and bone, not magic.

[@thedarknessinthelight9824]

@@ashtongiertz8728 LV is about Mindset, sure, but it's not just that. Physical attributes are also adjusted aswell (like your HP and def) along with your damage. Weapons used also deal differing amounts of damage regardless of LV, with the sole exceptions being fights that are orchestrated to be one-shots. And monsters aren't just made up of Magic since they all are capable of bleeding physical blood. And it's not just their body that Frisk is attacking anyway, but their soul.

[@scribbleslol1566]

Undertale isn't an actual game in the plot, but it's more like the player is a being ALLOWED to nearly completely possess some kid in a mountain by some godlike being not even REMOTELY as strong as the lamb. And with frisk by them self, the BEST thing we know about them, is they're kinda a dick.

[@FearlessGamer27]

Idk, wish Frisk was given more of a fighting chance. Like it felt like saying a character like Deadpool wouldn’t be strong because he is canonically a comic book character that isn’t technically real. Other than that tho, great video like always!

[@smartieking-gw1qv]

i mean like also stated by the game that only the person with the most determination in the underground can do save , reset, and loading

[@shaunhayes4614]

10:13 What about when he refused? During the god of Hyper death fight, he died and he literally just refused to die.

[@MaxmaPikachu]

hear me out, frisk and the lamb are in a stalemate because they both have resets, frisk won't die because of there determination and the lamb is controlled by the player and video game logic not allowing the lamb to die because he is the protagonist, it's been conformed by the game that determination is the reason they can reset, not the world being a game, proven by flowey who used to have resets because of determination but lost it when frisk got in the underground because frisk had more determination

[@rougarabid]

I never argued that determination wasn’t the power that allowed him to reset. That’s not relevant to the world being a game.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

​@@rougarabidit's never explicitly stated that Undertale is a game in-universe. It's more of a "how would reality work if these game mechanics were real?" Like how all those Isekai animes have some game system but Undertale actually explores the implications of such mechanics existing. They never mention game files (SAVEs are not called files but treated as a property determined souls have) and game mechanics are treated like forces of reality; basically saving in loading in Undertale is treated the same way quantum entanglement and relativity are in our world.

[@Teaspoon621]

But it’s not canon that Undertale is a video game. You can "Save" and "Load", but it’s still the real world.

[@darryllmaybe3881]

You know... Minecraft at least STARTED as an indie project, and powerscalling Steve always turns out either hilariously underpowered, or hilariously overpowered. I'd be curious to see you do one for survival mode Steve and then one for Creative/cheats enabled Steve. Personally, I think Survival mode Steve would at least be capable of taking out some lower tier and maybe even some medium tier cultists, but would be most likely to just build an underground base and hide out on the island, however Creative mode Steve might be able to completely wipe the Cult of the Lamb verse because of a few things. The main one is the /kill command, quite simply, very few things on the island can counter it, but what about the Lamb himself? He's kind of immortal and can come back to life indefinitely. Well, if we consider Steve himself to be an immortal entity seeing as he can respawn as many times as needed, then even if he can't kill the lamb, then we know he's capable of banishing immortal entities from his dimension with how he can ban other players, or "Steves" with the /ban command. If that seems a bit far fetched to you, then there is one other way I can think of for him to defeat or at least trap the lamb, one that Steve himself is susceptible to: A command block with the /kill command set to repeating and does not need redstone. Basically, even if you can come back after death, you just immediately die again, there's not much even the lamb can do, but I'm curious as to what you think. I think survival Steve definitely stands a better chance if you consider his respawn mechanic to be a part of his skillset, but I wouldn't blame you if you only counted that as a Creative mode power.

[@cosmictheorist6091]

I think the gravedigger would make a deal with The Lamb to revive his wife.

[@opadrip]

While Touhou is really popular, I'd still count Reimu as an indie hero that could be interesting to talk about in this series.

[@TwigTheDeer3117]

I’ve been waiting for this video thanks for doing Shante and Frisk. The only this I disagree with is Frisk/Chara, For starters undertale is not a digital realm, and saving and loading is explained though there determination but Saving and reloading isn’t really a ability of the player it’s just a trait of determination and the proof is Flowey in the genocide run because he used to have that ability himself. Also are you not going to mention chara at all? Because you could consider that a more powerful form of Frisk once they beat the genocide run, I say powerful form because at the end of the genocide run Chara uses frisk as a new host to destroy my timelines and au’s and its cannon to the game if Frisk goes on that pathway so why not mention it? And also have you forgotten about the immortality Hax? Types 1 and 7 for their SOUL; A human's SOUL can exist even after death and can exist for incredible amounts of time, the 6 Human SOULS are a good example of this when they were fighting Omega/Photoshop Flowey. Chara might stand more of a chance if we put them into this world after undertale’s genocide run because like I said frisk is a host for chara after loosing both their body and soul after dying while having their soul combined with Asriel's, Chara is just a nonexistent being who needs to possess hosts such as Frisk in order to interact with the world again. Who’s to say if Frisk’s body died couldn’t chara just find a new host that’s compatible for them. In total Chara has killed 97 Monsters while Frisk has killed 117 Monsters to get to the end of the game so I’d say if anyone on the island of cult of the lamb did the same thing chara would become compatible with that person and want to use them as a new host until the process repeats over and over again. To be fair if frisks body was destroyed chara could go into one of the bishops of the old fath and gain that body for themselves AFTER the lamb has killed them and indoctrinated them into there cult because in cult of the lamb the body is left behind until the recent update were the lamb can return them back and upgrade them. That’s my only argument against this and I want to know your thoughts.

[@PaisiosOfGOAOA]

I would love to see you talk about Caleb from Blood 1997 how he would do in the cult of the Lamb. I think he would do pretty good

[@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384]

He’s got a lot of pretty toys… just hope that guns can match the strength of the average cultist… but if it’s Blood 2 Caleb? Oh he’s doing damn good.