Would you take your car to this shop?

[@goodtimejohnny8972]

The technician shortage is caused by the industry. In a nutshell the technician pays for his own tools, certifications, health care, etc. Most get paid on a flat rate system. Example 6 hr to replace exhaust manifolds on a Ford mustang, takes you 11 hrs to do it, technician still only gets 6. This is why so many start their own business or leave the industry all together. For example a UPS driver. The company gives you everything. Tools to do the task at hand, fully paid healthcare, and an hourly wage that you can live off of. Construction workers are another good example. If a construction company hires me they don't expect me to buy a jackhammer to bust up a sidewalk. I show up to work, they give me the jackhammer and tell me to bust the old sidewalk up. These examples are different business to business and state to state. I'm just telling you why so many have said the hell with it I'm doing something else. As far as the other statement in that post, the writer of that post is saying stick to what is profitable like the oil changes and brake jobs and turn away anything else that will take too much time to complete. Back to the flat rate, diagnostic time for many DTCs is only 1 hr. I can tell you from experience as a tech and consumer that almost never is the case. I can also tell you that customers don't understand why their vehicle takes so long to repair, especially when you give them a quote from a computer software program and it takes much longer.

[@randomCHELdad]

But them C level dealership execs still getting 6 figure bonuses

[@MrDejast]

Works the other way too, when I was a tech at Audi the chain tensioner gaskets paid 10.6 hours . I could do them in 2 because of a tool I designed, they refused to pay me the correct time. So I quit the industry.

[@DavidPruitt]

As a DIYer and a car owner I've dropped shops for this attitude. I'll pay for a good diag and proper work. One shop I went to the owner was complaining how cars where so hard to work on and people didn't want to get work done, etc. Got my truck back and he said it needed a tune-up. Turned out the spark plug wire was off. Shop also put together a driveshaft wrong. He isn't broke because diag and programming doesn't pay, he's broke because he can't do the basics.

[@Autotech213]

I’m a tech and but as long as the shop is doing good with what they do I see no problem with it. Just hopefully they have a shop they can refer the bigger jobs or diag work too.

[@scotts4125]

I'm a mobile automotive locksmith and we run 80-150 calls per week. Back in the day I carried almost every ignition cylinder, keying kits etc etc. You name it we did it. Now we are so busy with lockouts and lost keys we don't even make duplicates. It also isn't cost effective for the customer to pay us a service call for a spare. I tell them to drive the car to a brick and mortar locksmith. I turn more work away than many places get. I guess you could say we just do gravy work but we don't have time to do the other stuff. We hardly pull locks for codes. We pay NASTF or a code broker. There are plenty of slow guys in my field who take jobs they have no idea what they are doing. Spend 3 days trying to program a key for $100. We get them going for 3x that but in an hour. It is what it is. We also use OEM fobs and keys provide a warranty. We do good work make a profit and have almost zero callbacks.

[@YaksAttack]

My father was a flatrate auto mechanic for over 40 years, now hes semi retired teaching at a vocational school. Hes worked for private shops, dealerships, and owned his own shop for ~10 years. The long and short that he gave me was that every year, the workload increased while the pay decreased. Hes bought 100s of thousands of dollars worth of tools in the past 4 decades out of his own pocket, and hes got decades of experience and knowledge to back him up, but he gets screwed every step of the way. Whether its the service writer feeding the younger (and cheaper) tech, or the parts guy selling a used item instead of letting him rebuild the one on the car, or flashing a computer that pays 0.2 hours but takes 45 minutes to complete, he was getting screwed. He said in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, he made good money. Ever since 2008-2012ish its been all downhill, and hes burned out, and now he just wants to enjoy his life. He teaches part time, and goes hiking and camping and kayaking and fishing multiple times per week. Obviously thats only because he paid his house off and all his children moved out, but still.

[@nuklhed6]

Boutique auto shop focusing on gravy work.

[@tommussington8330]

Well put if there is stuff in the cup holders we won't work on it model 😁

[@msilver9157]

I agree but maybe it’s time to do exactly that. Some customers will be loyal they practically drag others to your shop. If your shop is large enough to do it all then by all means go ahead and grab all you can. But yes in different places in this country you can’t find technicians for all types of repair. The training is to costly for many young guys just starting out. They buy the top of the line box’s and tools without the training. And now add EV repair in the next 5-10 years who knows what they should do

[@JOMaMa..]

Dazzle with brilliance or baffle with bullshit

[@rcworks9762]

What are the pushing? Oil change and detail? I did heavy line when I started. Most shops do not want to invest in a tech or techs. I spent my time in a shop that would send me to any training I wanted and it made me money. A lot of guys want to show up for 8 hours get paid and go home and forget about the job. Those guys were doing me a favor. I was getting the work they could not do. A funny thing. I was in the shop in Orange County California that got our ASC Automotive Service Council up and running. We would help each other on tech repairs. I never had another shop's tech that could fix what I had issues with. One was a Ford ZX2 with a P0301 code. The car ran perfect, it was like new on the 5-gas analyzer. I moved plugs wires and coils and it didn't change. Sent it to Ford as California makes the factory responsible for emissions for the first 10 years. They had it for 3 days and it came back only to reset the code. We sent it back to Ford, they had it a month. It came back "fixed". I went to the dealer where I knew their lead tech and asked what the problem was. He said he didn't know. Ford sent an engineering team to look at it. They "fixed" it and never said what they did. The ECM was the same it always had. I figure they reprogrammed the miss detection loose to get around it. That car had one other strange thing... The temp sensor developed a hole in it. I figured it for a defect, changed it, cleared the code and sent it back out with the owner. 6 months later it was back with a hole in the sensor. I took a hard look at it and found the connector on the harness was wired backwards. I corrected that and it fixed the electrolysis issue.

[@katservices]

As a business owner (single bay shop and mobile) i do turn down heavy line work on a regular basis, but thats because its just me. I do electrical diag to an extent ( I can't program modules at this time) I went on my own due to dealership life and all the crap that goes with it (useless upsales, garbage pay, taking advantage of out of town college kids and their parents concern for kids safety, and the list can go on and on). I do it to make a good living for my family and also to have freedom to pick and choose my jobs in order to stream line and maximize my time and profits. I cant disagree with what this owner is saying, but I can't completely agree with it either. What im saying is that it sounds like the owner is tired of turn over employees and bogging down his shop, but if the techs are well compensated then it shouldn't be an issue to begin with. The pay structure is the biggest problem in our industry. The best analogy ive heard is the comparison between cars and people. Cars constantly change and Dr.s have had the same model for thousands of years and patients dont get to hagle on price of diagnostics. With the complexity of auto's today maybe we should start mandating a basics of auto technology in schools like we do for human health. Just my thoughts.

[@emiko1975]

Totally agree. The pay structure hasn't kept up with the rest of the different industries that pay way more for people with less skills than is required of technicians.

[@psychodad1961]

It's the usual sell a battery and alternator when it was just a corroded ground connection. And don't fix the actual problem.

[@marklester161]

What I think is that this is a prime example as to what is wrong with our society today. We wonder why we are being outperformed by multiple other countries any more. Our forefathers w are rolling over in their graves at this. It’s disgusting. “Take the easy way out so you can make more money”. That isn’t the answer! /rant Keith, not that you need to hear this from a stranger, but please keep the course that you’ve set for you and your company. I am merely a shadetree mechanic (who ironically works in the medical field and is an owner/op of a semi truck … it’s a long story). I watch you because I hope to learn a thing or two about diagnosing but more importantly I watch because I have the utmost respect for your work process and ethic. You deserve every accolade that comes your way.

[@grahamwarrington4133]

Here in Canada with so much salt used on roads in winter electronics in vehicles have a lot of problems. I take my vehicles to a hole in the wall mechanic. He has an apprentice working with him . I advised the young fella to concentrate on vehicle electronics. The rest will come. You have to think outside the box when it comes to electronics. Experience is very important in troubleshooting!! A single corroded wire can kill a vehicle. The good old days when there were no electronics , just the coil and points are gone. Everything is controlled by a module of some type. Everything is interconnected. L1 has the idea! Years ago I knew it would be a world of modules and here it is . L1 has the the knowledge and tools to make it work!! South Main Auto has the right ideas also. He thinks outside the box and uses logic when working in his shop. Electronics is fascinating! I worked in the mobile radio industry for 50 years. You have to keep up with technology. My motto has always been " If man made it I can fix it "

[@Arthur-sz7uf]

Diagnosis is a must on every shop..! How are you going to know what's wrong without a Diagnosis..? However, heavy line is more debating since you need special tools for every different engine nowadays, and most customers scream when you tell them it's a 16 hour job plus 3k in parts, and if something changes, the customer is unhappy, and so are you..! Big jobs can bring big problems.

[@rhkips]

If a shop doesn't do diagnostics, how can they do anything? A customer brings a vehicle in with a concern, and what? You just draw a random job from a hat? "Focus on retention first." Yes, absolutely. If I have more work than my techs can handle, the techs I have don't have much experience, and there's a shortage of experienced techs available to hire, guess what? I'm going to be honest with my customers, turn away work beyond the scope of my shop, and focus on training the techs I have, and making sure they have the best dang work environment anyone could ask for. I want to pay you well now, so I can work with you in the future.

[@ferrumignis]

_"If a shop doesn't do diagnostics, how can they do anything?"_ They've got their parts canons loaded and ready to fire, simultaneously removing money from the customer whilst (probably) not fixing the problem.

[@mike3133f]

Customer here,It doesn’t make much sense. Clearly it identifies the skills gap shops are facing but then leaves out anything on how to close it . Instead they just focus on wrenching (just parts replacement maybe). There has to be a middle ground to close the skills gap.. Cars are only getting more complicated with electronics there is no way to avoid it.

[@danielk4014]

This also means the shop does not pay their techs well. They will eventually run out of work. They will push away alot of customers because they refuse diag and heavy line. They will be forced to hard sell items that in actuality can wait to be addressed on a customer's vehicle.

[@kirkhamandy]

I am a vehicle owner, not in the trade. I look for (and expect to pay for) a diagnosis first. Then (99% of the time) ask for it to be fixed (and expect to pay for the fix). Otherwise, how the hell do you know if your car has actually been fixed?

[@eurowerx4267]

At this shop all you’ll ever be is a parts changer!! There’s no future but a broke down body!! The money is in the ability to diagnose! Forget heavy duty work!!

[@dp1mat33]

I guess they want focus on the gravy work. More power to them. Personally I kind like some of the challenging stuff it gives me some satisfaction. As far as heavy line we do what we are capable of doing. Personally if I was a customer I would rather take my whip to who can fix it front to back.

[@koffibanan3099]

As a car owner I'd like the profits of the shop owners to skyrocket, obviously.

[@thk7513]

Most car owners would disagree with you. We are, in their minds, still grease monkey's.

[@koffibanan3099]

@@thk7513 Hey, I was being sarcastic. I definitely don't see mechanics as grease monkeys and do most of my own work anyway. I've got no problem with a shop owner turning a decent profit, but "skyrocketting", that usually means something fishy is going on. In this advert it means; no investment whatsoever in education, not even trying to help people with slightly more complex car problems, purely focusing on gravy work and expecting the techs to perform those jobs like robots; quick and efficient. How this strategy would help with "retention", I don't know. Maybe the skyrocketing profits can be used to give them an above-average salary? I somehow doubt it.

[@raypoole2394]

First of all, whoever wrote that needs to work on their communication skills. The post was written with a wide brush. There are some good points to the post but no context. In my humble opinion, a good shop will hire skilled techs and pay well enough to keep those techs. Then hire unskilled techs with focus on training them to advance their skill level. With a good work environment and a chance for advancement, many tech will stay and be productive. To keep the customer happy and returning is simple. Do the job correctly and honestly at a reasonable price. Lastly, management needs to be on the same level as their techs. If they don't understand the process how can they make informed decisions. Forgive the rant from an old man.

[@Google_Is_Evil]

Maybe the communication style it was written in works exactly right for the target audience. Don't underestimate the power of stupidity. African Prince style email scam is successful because the target audience will still fall for it.

[@raypoole2394]

@@Google_Is_Evil Not my call Mate. My comments were based on face value. What I saw in the post was broad statements with little to no context. I've seen things like this many time in my 40+ years in my field of work. I get these at least once a month. Someone claiming to know how to make me a better manager of my time and resources. In your opinion this is a scam? I suppose technically you could me correct in the sense that the person is trying to sell you shoes without knowing your shoe size. One size does not fit all. :)

[@HotRod-wv4vm]

I would rather have a shop that is knowledgeable. If a shop is just going after the easy jobs mentioned above you might as well take it to a street mechanic that you sometimes find hanging out in Autozone 😅

[@sageflat3734]

Turn your shop into Jiffy Lube. Oil changes and brake jobs. There is absolutely no competition in that market so you should do just fine...

[@ferrumignis]

That is pretty much the vibe that this stupid post was giving me. If everyone took this advice then no-one would be doing diagnostics so everyone from the non-diagnostic shops to the customer would be screwed.

[@ws2664]

Mister Goodtimejohnny said it best, I got out of the business cause there is no money in it any more but customers don't know that and they have no idea what a shop owner has to pay to keep the doors open. The last place I worked at our labor rate was the cheapest in town which means I didn't make much, he owned the building free in clear it was only me and him so he didn't have to pay work mans comp I had t shirts I had wash myself on weekends no uniform service. Customers don't know that and they would come in and complain about how expensive the shop up road was. What they didn't know was that I had worked at one time I would lay in to them and let them know what his monthly expenses were. They were sky high, customers don't know that, our shop was dump compared to his and he had some benefits and he would spend a ton of money on equipment, advertising, uniforms and so on, my old boss didn't spend a dime on anything so a customer doesn't really know how good a shop is or how knowledgeable the tech is till they go there.

[@elcheapo5302]

I don't use shops unless it's something I simply don't have time to do. In that rare case, I expect to use ONE shop to do EVERYTHING. If they can't, or simply WON'T, I'll find one that does. None of this driving all over town nonsense to various shops to get different things fixed.

[@scotts4125]

People do that for doctors. Would you go to regular mechanic for a transmission issue? I wouldn't. My wife is also a dermatologist so I am a bit biased lol. You have no idea how many non dermatologists misdiagnose skin issues. Seems like an easy thing but it's not. They give patients meds that actually make it worse. There are specialists out there for a reason.

[@elcheapo5302]

@@scotts4125 I do 99% of my own work, but if I didn't or couldn't, I still wouldn't use a "regular mechanic". What's the point? Any shop can do tires, brakes, suspension...but if they can't or won't do diagnostics, why not just go to the shop that does that in the first place for everything? Just like doctors, find a competent shop you like and trust, and build a relationship with them.

[@29chevbolenschannel40]

The line "stop doing diagnosis" is a strange statement to me. Part of a basic repair is first diagnosing the problem I would think unless the vehicle is there for a scheduled maintenance item such as having the engine oil changed. Any vehicle arriving at a shop that has a problem requires a diagnosis to determine where the fault lies and what is necessary to repair the problem safely so the owner gets the best bang for their buck - whether it is an engine miss, a noise, a leak, etc. If a shop does not want to invest the time required to determine the problem correctly and provide some sort of estimate as to what the repair might cost then why would a vehicle owner entrust the shop with the vehicle? Worked in auto parts for about 38 years (retired now) and one of the things I observed during that time period was good automotive technicians and good parts people were hard to come by and very seldom properly compensated wage wise for the value they brought to the industry and shop/store owners. The knowledge required to properly understand a vehicle system and how it operates is required by both the technician and auto parts person so that all the parts necessary so the system can function properly are considered during restoration of a system failure must be learned as it is not something that people are born with. Learning requires a willing student, a good teacher with hands on experience and other factors but without the first two it will be a very difficult journey on the road to a successful education and without proper compensation both the student and the teacher may be forced to seek more profitable and rewarding careers in other occupations. If a shop does not want to do diagnostic work on todays vehicles then what will it be focusing on - oil changes and tune ups? Not sure how that will lead to increased profits given the trend by auto manufacturers to make vehicles that are designed to require minimum maintenance.

[@mrblonde2013]

The facebook(?) Message is incoherent and jumbled. It sounds like it is aimed at flat rate shops that are completely profit orientated. "Screw the customer, screw the techs, to hell with quality work, suck as much $$$ out of this business as possible so in 5 years i can sell up and retire to the Bahamas with a big boat."

[@1MiketheMechanic]

Stick with the brakes/suspension type work and build the company with technicians to do those jobs then build out from there if you can find or train the technicians to do it. It's a simple plan to build your business without getting caught up in all the crazy stuff that doesn't make the most margins and requires the highest paid technicians.

[@bigfoot9445]

Parts cannon being primed without meaningful diag.

[@handedplayable2005]

As a car owner, this concerns me because I *want* the components in my car to actually be diagnosed by people at the shop I bring my car to, and I *want* these issues to be addressed by someone who is eager to learn more, and not just focus on “the basics”. They don’t have to be perfect… nobody is. But I really think that this mentality of “stop doing diagnosis” serves nobody except maybe vehicle manufacturers, who would love to “repair” (i.e. replace) components in someone’s car for three times the actual cost. My point is that I think encouraging mechanics to accept a level of mediocrity in their work is doing them, and the clients they serve a severe disservice. If there are components that “nobody knows how to repair”, we need to complain loud and clear that they need to be repairable, and we need to be teaching mechanics how to do it.

[@bryana7163]

shops should leave the diags to the people that know how to do them, not mess around and take money for bad diags. There should be more specialty shops.

[@Google_Is_Evil]

To be fair, if a shop is upfront about this and are offering quality oil and brake changes at a competitive rate, I might not hold it against them as a vehicle owner. As a method of "retaining technicians" I think it will not work. Once they master the simple stuff, technicians will want to advance in their trade and make more money per hour. To do so, they will need to be comp proficient in the more complex jobs, which they will not be able to do in a We-lube-it style service station. in my opinion and experience, the thing stopping technicians from staying in the field is the fact that they have trouble advancing, making higher wages and the lack of challenge in their work. Once you have done 1000 brake jobs, you really don't want to do 10K more until you retire, especially if you will make the same money the 19 year old kid makes that only started three months ago. I myself never started as a mechanic, I only do complex diagnosis and repairs and only as a hobby and occasional side job, mostly for the challenge. I do the same type of work in IT and wages are a lot higher there.

[@arlo4051]

An abundance of technicians isn't going to solve the problem. The auto industry has priced it's self out of the market. They have made them so much more complicated any little problem disables the whole vehicle. People are barely scraping by and trying to buy a new auto is out of the question let alone trying to afford to get a used one fixed.

[@anthony-i1k8c]

Just as a vehicle owner only. Not a tech or a business owner. I think that method stinks. The work will be there. Intense diagnostic work will exist. So that method is leaving vehicle owners with paying more in the end at guesses, not test. Flooding the capable techs until they get frustrated and quit. I'm not sure what the solution is. To get this level of tech will probably cost more. But owners don't want to pay more. Maybe have a pay scale on the customer side for the shop to say "hey, this is going to require some advanced level diagnosis and will cost more". I think the bonus to the customer is if the shop can guarantee the fix is correct. "This level of diagnosis will cost more than standard but we do guarantee our work. It's a correct diagnosis or you don't pay". That might not be the right way but there's got to be a way to meet the workload because it's driving the demand. Not lower the workforce quality and leave customers out to dry.

[@scottnusser6232]

Been a shop owner and pretty much one man band the whole time. House, shop all my toys, retirement all paid for. Got a 820 credit score, does it sound like I need some smart ass to teach me how to do it?😂 Started my business 1985, fresh out of the Navy Hard work, late nights.the love of a good women(my late wife) got me here! Quiting,not an option! Sorry to say but todays young men are soft, weak, want instant standing, gratification without earning it. "Tools cost too much, I don't get paid enough, wah,wah,wah😢" I quit. Hey boys news flash, life is hard and unfair sometimes. Not everyone gets a trophy! I'm old now and will need a successor, some one willing to learn! NO PHONE at work, that criteria ends most candidates from jump. No good father figures, no good real men. Anybody don't like my position, too bad, needs sayin. Old boomer out❤

[@gerald4535]

As a Millennial, jumping into a shop with no money is not going to work. I have to buy my tools. If I can't easily afford rent, I can't afford thousands of dollars in tools. Yes, that comes with time but many don't have to slack to make it work. That's unfortunately the reality now. Next, having no phones is just a recipe for disaster. If I have a kid and they get sick at school/have to go the ER, I need to know about it. You can have a no phones on the floor policy but the no phones period is ridiculous.

[@calholli]

I'm not smart enough to know what he's saying. lol.. What is "heavy line work"?? So is he basically saying, just stick to brake jobs and oil changes and avoid the rest? That's all I'm getting from it. I don't see how you can have any kind of "retention" without diagnosing and fixing people's cars. I'm lost. lol

[@JOMaMa..]

More like navigating thru a dense fog of gypsy middlemen scouring for “food left on thy table”

[@danielk4014]

Heavy line example: cylinder head, engine, or transmission replacement.

[@TonyGingrich]

I take that to be someone trying to be a "voice" in the industry, but isn't quite where they think they are or hope to be. The reason: they emphasize retention whilst prescribing a lower level of customer service. Those are mutually exclusive; anyone in any industry would know better. The poster is not trying to service an audience. They are trying to service themselves. There's just no way this advice can be followed.

[@Mr2004MCSS]

It doesn't sound good to me. Sounds like they only want the jobs that are easy. With all of the electronics on vehicles these days, advanced diagnostics is necessary, but I get why they might not want to do it since it can be time consuming, and most techs are probably not getting paid well to do that kind of job and probably don't have the training to do it well anyway.

[@samcripes3046]

I feel tech was overwhelming. Now they want to label us a Specialist. I will be always a mechanic. There always needs a person turning a wrench.

[@richardcranium5839]

well if you are just hanging parts you will obsolete yourself. more and more you hang a part you need to code, calibrate, or somehow otherwise adjust the part electronically to the unit. if you cant diagnose then how you gunna do that??? what if it wont take? did you just hang a part unnecessarily because the old part couldnt communicate? as far as retention unless you can make it meaningful and gainful employment your techs aint gunna stay. there's too much demand out there. todays skillset is much different than even 10 years ago probably even 5 yrs ago.

[@rodvan-zeller6360]

The best way to make money with diagnostic work is with a you tube channel.

[@xj31]

Just cherry pick the good work. What could possibly go wrong?

[@clems6989]

It's not just this industry either. In all the trades this is the case. The next generation doesn't want to work learn or get dirty. They want to play video games for a living...Sad state of our society...

[@jasonladzenski497]

As a shop owner, I do the work but limit it as much as possible because of lack of technicians.

[@calholli]

You do what work? and you limit what? I have no idea what you're trying to say

[@JOMaMa..]

That makes no sense

[@jasonladzenski497]

Did you watch the video? Heavy line work and electrical diagnostics.

[@preston963]

I'm not in yankyland fortunately (no offense) & I'm a mechanic & electronics tech of 40yrs so I have less than no problems with diag & program but we do have mechanical businesses (your term shops) here & they give us genuine ones a bad name which make my new customers sus.... be honest upfront, give a reasonable guesstimation on price & do a good job.... people will work with you if you work with them.