Transmission Companies are Afraid to Show You This! So I Found One That Will!

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Today Jared takes a trip and gets a behind the scenes look at what makes a Torque Converter work. Learn more about what makes a torque converter stall, and what exactly stall means! Do you has a suggestion for another behind the scenes look at a factory or part? Comment that below!
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[@mattbrown5511]

A giant "Thank you" to Boss Hog for showing you around and educating us all. Thank you, Jared, for doing all the hard work to bring us this information.

[@christianmeeks4430]

I used to work at LuK Clutch (now Schaeffler Automotive) would like you all to know, that copper stuff is copper brazing paste and a completely common practice in torque converter production. Every single clutch, pump, and impeller produced there had the vanes brazed with copper brazing paste. Lastly, when they put in the 6th production line dedicated to 10R80 and 10R60 torque converter production, we hit 1000 pieces produced in the covers section in 8 hours.

[@JCWren]

Torque converters are still magic.

[@NickTaylorRickPowers]

Fluid magic

[@Rekuzan]

Black Magic!

[@DrFiero]

@@Rekuzan Red magic. If it's black magic, the magic has already burnt up. :D

[@Rekuzan]

@@DrFiero Yeah man, there ya go!!! 🤣🤣🤣 Although I think Clarkson referred to it as black, not quite realizing what he was saying!!!

[@OttawaOldFart]

Pretty well LOL

[@williamstamper442]

As an ATI customer for years, i remember about 20 years ago, 2004ish, that same company was pushing a converter cutting and welding machine. "Start your own business or build upon the business you have" The product was not terribly expensive for what it was and did, i believe $150k or less, cnc controlled with a user friendly interface "anybody" could use. Even a flush process was part of this unit, making it a complete tool from start to finish for any trans shop for sure. Also beneficial to certain race car shops. The guy who got that unit just for his home garage was very serious in his program. I actually wanted to get aboard on this unit but the money just wasn't there. Can you imagine the possibilites of this machine however, if you are a serious drag racer? The no prep scene could be yours locally once you learned to build a converter for each individual application to get down a poor surface with 4 digit horsepower! Your car is completely different from the guy or gal next to you...but what if i can make you a unit that works perfect for your application? If so then id be the man and wouldn't be poor right now. A cnc mill and a trained operator could whip up endless stators to dial your combo in and that ATI machine could have put it together. Did i mention the equipment also had capability to static and dynamically balace the unit? I dont think the resolution was that high but better than your average rebuild shop which don't balance a "rebuilt" converter at all. A cnc machine to make stators for custom converters could also help develop impeller wheels for your favorite turbo charger too... Dang i should have went with this and pushed myself back then in 2004. Id be sitting pretty right now. Id have been the "magic converter doctor"! Oh well, its healthy to dream, even about the past, as long as its positive.

[@Bidmores]

this is an awesome reflection but it makes me really curious exactly how the complex process of building case specific converters could be learned efficiently. It seems like so many darn variables.

[@djmips]

That was really nice of Boss Hog to let you come and bug them for our pleasure. Thanks Boss Hog!

[@garymartin9806]

I worked for DACCO torque converters for 21 years and probably built 100,000 of these

[@cdoublejj]

hell yeah man!!!!

[@baims8367]

What the best stall speed for 3000 circle track car 232 / 232 @50 108 LSA 3:73 rear gear car ?

[@patrickwarden2933]

what brand do you recommend for 6l80? these look well made

[@user-lw7mw1cj5k]

I still love watching "How it's Made". Thanks for the gear head version. Torque converters have always been that "Black Art Magic" thing. Seeing the internals was interesting. Thanks.

[@dan725]

Man thanks for digging up these highly-knowledgeable guys like this dude from Boss Hog to effortlessly teach us the inner-workings of these Torque Converters! This was insanely educational; and also he’s so good repping his company on the several improvements they’ve made over OEM. Beautiful pieces of engineering and American manufacturing on display here! Great video! Thanks Jared!

[@markbrown-us4xe]

Flash backs of working at HydraMatic for 32 years. The press that stamped the shell would shake the building in assembly 3/4 mile away. Willow Run Michigan. Now I know why the Engineer's were so stressed. Great content and Thanks.

[@mistermoonshadow9188]

When I was a kid, my parents had a '62 Buick Invicta. My mom loved that car! Smoothest experience ever---because there were no gears! It had DYNAFLOW, which was a variable vane torque converter. Big V8 engine that just smoothly moved forward with no "shifts" as speed increased. It was "slow" to accelerate, but mom was fine with that!. (I was too young to know how Reverse worked. ) I don't know how the vanes were varied.

[@n.mcneil4066]

Buick could have used the 4 speed Hydra matic in their cars but they declined. They didn"t want all of those shifts. The Dynaflo was equipped with drive, low, & reverse but no upshifts. It"s operation was so smooth that it could be equated wit CVT transmission.

[@haircut2015]

Are you sure No gears ???

[@jimrobin98]

the torque convertor is one amazing piece of hydraulic "coupler". Just to think of all the abuse it takes and still works is amazing!

[@arniebriscoe2978]

I have been using the Boss Hogg convertors since back in the mid 70's. Back then "affordable and quality" stall convertors were hard to find. I don't know how many Boss Hogg convertors I installed in customer cars, but can honestly say I never had a failure, great product.

[@tylerkeller4281]

Just went over this at school it took the teachers day 2 days to explain and I was lost and now I understand them after this video

[@NickTaylorRickPowers]

You'll find some people don't know exactly what they're teaching you well enough to break it down into understandable pieces or analogies

[@____MC____]

It helps to start off with a camshaft thats meant for the vehicle (not a car cam in a heavy truck). Its a crapshoot even for the converter manufacturers to get one to make your combo work. I found that out the hard way.

[@ryurc3033]

Ah yes, the magic slippy jelly doughnut of automatic transmission motivator.

[@davebarron5939]

This hits home, I learned how important the "stall" is to your specific application. Long story, OEM stall, lots of LS power, too light a car, and I had all I could do to hold the car sitting at stop lights (standing on brake). Went to a 2,500 stall, and boom! PERFECT, and car is a rocket!

[@russelljacob7955]

The talk about 'cannot just put in a torque converter' I think back to when I did temp work for a tow company. They had just gotten a new transmission into a truck. Put in one with a bit higher stall. That transmission under any load became only good for boiling trans fluid.

[@russelljacob7955]

@georgesanford3719 Yup, it was. Not my truck. All Automatics have a stall speed. Is how a torque convertor works. Issue is they put in one not suited for the job on an overhaul.

[@braxtonnelson5375]

I'm sure I speak for a lot of others when I thank you for throwing a little "learnin'" our way. I've understood the basics of a torque converter for many years, but nothing beats actually seeing what is going on inside one! Maybe you can expand upon your teaching to explain and show us how other automotive parts and systems work, and why they go bad. You'd be surprised to see how many folks don't understand how a starter drive/bendix works, or an alternator, or even a simple relay. Thanks for taking us along!

[@jontnoneya3404]

AWESOME! I absolutely LOVE to geek out on stuff and get really fired up to learn things I don't know. Cars have always been a big black box to me but as I learn a little, I feel like I'm pulling back the veil and seeing that so many different aspects of them make sense. BUT Torque Converters and Transmissions.....still confusing and crazy complicated to my brain. At least right now. NONE Of those fins make any sense to me but they will. Thanks for all the indepth info. LOVE seeing these types of vids. AND You were a better version of "How it works"!!! Well done!!

[@razerbrosdynamics3917]

Torque converters with lock up have existed since the 50s at least. Packard had lockup in 1st and 2nd, making a 2 speed appear to be a 4 speed. there may be more, but thats the specific one I know of

[@matthewbenson5913]

Dude. Let the man talk for crying out loud

[@thekidd8169]

A lot of people don’t know how to ask a question and keep your mouth shut until the person has finished or starts to circle. Easy work.

[@IANHANDS]

Whoa . Fella

[@IANHANDS]

​@thekidd8169 How did you become so perfect . Just asking like

[@haircut2015]

Yes let him talk as he knows what he is doing and you do not...

[@chublez]

​@@IANHANDSdon't need to be a firefighter to spot smoke.

[@died4us590]

When i was a kid living in the country, there were only three channel's lol. We didn't have a lot to fight over. Now, i watch car related media, history , and other stuff about how thing's work or are made. I don't watch tv or go to movie's, don't know what went wrong with the kinda stuff they make now. I turn 53 this month, and growing up it was a lot of free child labor, but it was labor that taught me a lot. G-d bless.

[@nate_d376]

Yeah, not many choices back in the early 80s. But I only had 1 kid brother, so being the oldest, I got to choose, and he had to hold the antenna! Lol

[@squiggyg.8415]

We used to live in the city, and we only had three channels

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

One channel.

[@morganweast4228]

Like the song says 57 channels and nothing on.

[@joshrepik]

Don’t be afraid to say god when you’re spreading love

[@jdmmurray1023]

Excellent job, really enjoyed that! I was wondering if you’ve ever heard of a torque brake it works like a torque converter except your driveshaft goes through the middle and one half is bolted to the frame the other half a spline to your driveshaft and you have a lever that introduced oil into it and it slows you down using the same principle as these torque converter‘s, they used to use them on old quarry trucks with the cooling system of their own, just something you might wanna look into. Thanks again great show!

[@davebrown9725]

Thanks to all at Boss Hog for this great field trip. Seeing the internal parts, how they work together, and details like lock up and stall speed differences on the parts was incredibly good. I can't wait to see Johnny Rev back on the road, and I am eager to see more of these inside component field trips.

[@robertborgeson1821]

Wow. What are great video. Torque converters are still a mystery to me but at least now I can pretend to understand how they work when I talk with my friends.. about to go check boss hog out right now for my 4Le. Never heard of them before but after seeing inside their shop and the high quality work they do I'm much more comfortable with them than anyone else.

[@motomuso]

It's pretty amazing how early in auto history the automatic transmission came about. Those pioneers of automotive engineering were no dummies.

[@seanbatiz6620]

I’ve predominantly serviced/repaired/rebuilt manual trans but have on occasion, done same with a/t’s.. was myself. although schooled up & practical learnt in shop settings, long perplexed of exactly what all was going on inside of a good ol’ torque conv… until working on a friends ‘49 Buick Super w/Dynaflow.. studied up on that trans & its inner-workings, it began to make much more since.. several years after that, after having acquired my first ‘55 Buick Super w/Twin Turbo “Variable Pitch” Dynaflow, 5 some-odd years before, found myself in need of digging thru my trans, which, for anyone knowledgable of Dyna’s, has a torque conv you can fully disassemble (not welded together). 1955 was the first year Buick introduced their “Variable Pitch” torque conv… truly a work of engineering art, going thru one of those in your hands! Made the whole hydraulic concept so much more understandable, being able to physically inspect & marvel at each component segment within. This all said, I’m wondering now, after watching thru this video, having an A.D.D. tangent thought at some point during, of what could possibly be gained or lost, advantage/disadvantage, of a modern TC having its pump cover NOT fixed to the flywheel… having this carry thru an outer planetary gear arrangement or the like, with control of said system done electronically? Granted, such an arrangement would/could vastly complicate the “goings-on” inside the bell housing, potentially requiring that zone to become fully sealed up but.. what if?

[@tonyc223]

Was looking for thru my bolt collection just last week for some body bolts and came across some 3/8 and 5/16 nc bolts painted green. I remember them from trade school in 1978 when we took apart a bunch of Buick Dynaflow trans,that the school junked.

[@seanbatiz6620]

@@tonyc223 It is crazy to flashback to them school projects of condemned cars donated, how yesterdays junk, later becomes gold! I’ve been seeking to find at least one of them class “cut-aways” of an old Dynaflow & an old 322 Fireball Nailhead! Always thought that’d be cool to have on display, juxtaposed adjacent to one of my ‘55 Buicks at a local classic car show… even thought of how cool those cut-aways wud be if mounted into a simi-restored rolling 55 Buick chassis w/various literature/ad copies, framed & posted along each component, giving spectators a visual representation of what everything is

[@YZFoFittie]

Seems like you guys missed a big chunk by getting sidetracked. No explanation of the purpose of the one way bearing, nor what actually happens when stall speed is reached, etc.

[@Lifeistooshort67]

Perfect! I always enjoyed how it's made. It's like looking behind the curtain at a magic show. This is especially true at a professional torque converter facility. How about double adjustable coilover shocks?

[@KingKeson]

Always a great day when Jared uploads! I can’t wait to see where this series goes! I’m all about the behind the scenes! Jared you are appreciated for all the knowledge you share and the positive attitude and passion you show while doing it! Keep up the Grind!

[@rexkean]

Thanks for the info about the "Magic Ring"! Always wondered how they worked

[@fredstarr9690]

Hey Jared, great video! I love to see the inner workings of stuff like that. I have a good one for you to do next if you can. I have the Holley terminator X on my 59 corvette resto mod. It has a ls2 and a Tremec 5 speed. I installed the terminator X on my car and it works great but I have no idea how it does what it does? It should be pretty easy for you and Holley to explain how it all works.... maybe not. I would love to see a video of you at Holley, see what you can do thanks buddy love the channel.

[@kickasspowdercoating]

Loved the episode it’s neat to see the insides of them after having replaced hundreds of them ! And the spline tool so cool never thought it was done like that 👀

[@michaelmonday418]

When I hear someone say, I think I burnt up my torque converter. What goes bad in them, or what causes it to fail?

[@EJWORX]

I love it. Keep them coming. Super educational for the city slickers that don't have wrenching spaces :-).

[@carlsing1190]

I’m hoping you can go to Callahan Auto Parts and check the specs on the Roto Gurter

[@anthoneyking6572]

Thank You Jarred I have been a Mec For 50 Years and Never Seen Inside a Converter was Really Interesting thank you So Much

[@79tazman]

I know in racing you can get converters that are bolted together instead of welded and you can open them up to change the stator or sprag you can also use dump valves on your trans to redirect fluid. Say you have a real tight converter you can use your dumps to redirect fluid from going to the converter to the pan instead to make your converter looser than what it would be if all the fluid was going to the converter. Racing has taught me so much about automatic transmissions and how they work it is a amazing process.

[@ijbolton1985]

I've seen transmission tear down videos but the valve body for automatic transmissions have been crazy n how they work. Can you make a video on the valve body and how it moves fluid to change gears?! Thanks for making the great content!

[@ericsfishingadventures4433]

I've always wanted to learn a simple breakdown of a torture converter, this was perfect! And magic!

[@genericsomething]

I love factory tours, and I hope you make many more videos like this. I hope more manufacturers are open to you visiting, like Boss Hog.

[@MrTheHillfolk]

Torque converter function can be mimicked with 2 fans. Power one up,and place the other in front of it while its running. The unpowered one is what drives the trans.

[@edwincolon7782]

Those internal tubines are artwork. On my list of vendors for sure.

[@UCm0i6w5lBlRthCtZEoj99tg]

I'm only a few minutes in but I hope Jared gets his own how it's made style jingle 🤣 I loved the same TV shows growing up too

[@woopyass]

Thanks for making this happen, It was great to see someone explain things in a way that understandable.

[@pebrede]

Great video, was hoping to hear how much torque multiplication the various stator angles give, maybe part of his secret squirrel sauce. Looking forward to the series, keep at it. Take care n play safe.

[@stephencooper5040]

A big thank you to Nelson and Boss Hog for this lesson.

[@starkyslp16]

Clear as mud. I'm sticking with "magic" 😂

[@MarkK01]

My dream would be to win the lottery, retire and just go from place to place to see how things are manufactured, I was and still am a huge fan of the TV show How is it Made and other shows like it. Thank you for sharing how a torque converter is made and the different functions of it.

[@danielgarrett1155]

Great video. I'm always looking to understand more of the voodoo going on in the automatics. I think cams should be next. They are very dependent on the combination as a whole. I could use a little more understanding on how to select a cam for a given combination. There are a lot of videos about selecting cams, but maybe you could put a little different perspective on it than what we have seen out there already. Js

[@joshm3342]

This was like a virtual, adult field trip. Thanks!

[@dylanromine4101]

The pump click is actually the last click

[@georgeferlazzo7936]

Hello again, Jared and Crew Thank you for another Great Video 👍 I learned quite a bit. Again thank you 👍

[@mwqs1]

Excellent deep dive video. I love learning about this stuff😊

[@TheQuestionableGarage]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@johnguilfoyle3073]

A Torque Converter connects the spinny bits in the engine to the spinny bits in the Automatic Transmission.

[@twodogsyyc6729]

We had OTA over the air TV. Good rabbit ear antennas got you 3 channels or 1 channel if you had crap ones with aluminum foil on them. Luv the vid Jared

[@ronsilva516]

That was interesting to see the guts of a torque converter how they work and application 👍😎

[@bgee461]

When i was rebuilding my odyssey transmission, i cut open the torque converter for this exact reason. It was still magic so that was that.

[@bensabelhaus7288]

Very cool. Planning to visit Precision torque converter in Iowa? I did a short stint with them warehousing out here in WA and they are probably the nicest people you will meet. If you do, say hi! Ben

[@oneninerniner3427]

Precision is a pretty good company. I've used their stock replacement converters on my stock daily driver trans rebuilds and have had some custom high performance & race converters built by them as well .

[@PowerSportsQuebec]

This is sooooo cool! ive replaced torque converters and all and I know what they do but seeing how they are made and the detailed of the tech is really nice.

[@KRich408]

I've always called what you call a clutch cover a pressure plate, and you forgot the Throw out bearing and fork. Manuel also has a pilot bearing that an automatic doesn't need.. I don't know about today but in the past if an engine was factory fit with an automatic the pilot bearing was not installed in the crank shaft, some engines the crank wasn't even drilled for it. I've done many Auto to manual swaps having to install a pilot bearing, a few were not done because the engine needed a crankshaft swap. Or engine swap.

[@GallagherKeith]

This is a great series that you should continue. It would be great to see how this stuff comes to us. Shocks/pistons/alternators/MSD box/etc.

[@russwaegelin2134]

Thanks for the look “behind the curtain”! I love understanding “the magic”!!

[@SerbanCMusca-ut8ny]

Me before watching this explanation on torque converters: "It's just magic" Me after watching this explanation on torque converters: "Oh I see, it's dark magic"

[@zAvAvAz]

Yesh! Great job.

[@greatbull67]

Thanks for this one. I like to know the how and why of things also

[@ezelucky7013]

I love Jerry's videos he does explain a lot of the car relation he reconfirms what I already know and I do learn a lot more awesome videos I'll give him a 1000 stars

[@windward2818]

Owning a Miller Welder myself, I guess I am a little confused by statements made in the video. The Miller XMT 350 CC/CV shown welding the TC in the video, as a base model, does not have pulsed spray arc transfer welding (Pulsed MIG as described by Miller), it is however, a very good MIG welder for steel, and in the video they have it dialed in for a low penetrating structural weld without much splatter using the welding turntable. The Miller XMT 350 MPa supports Pulsed MIG and is more expensive than the XMT 350 CC/CV base model shown in the video. So just to be clear, for the application I don't think you really need the Pulsed MIG feature. A dialed in MIG with a turntable and holding jig will work just fine for a top down level fillet weld. After the final weld and broach do you need to final balance the torque converter when at speed without fluid? I think if all the parts are neutral balanced and the final weld also balanced then the assembly should be neutral balanced without the need for a final balance test. However, I was really expecting to see a balance check after manufacture.

[@gags730]

'Modern Marvels' was the best TV show ever when it came to things we use and how it's made. They had a few narrators, but the best one who did a bulk of the shows was Max Raphael. Max was his stage name, his real name was Lloyd Michael Sherr

[@dan725]

I wonder if additive manufacturing would drastically improve TC’s. Without worrying about awkward welding angles and CNC tool paths, I wonder if one can eke out even more efficiencies with more efficient designs without worrying about toolpaths.

[@groermaik]

Like Captain Picard says, "Make it so."

[@russelljacob7955]

Jared: Headers and exhaust. Show that. How many people have you met that think bigger pipes and equal length headers are all there is to it and then end up with a giant noisemaker slower than a camry.

[@chriscollins550]

Just adding bigger wheels and tyres will also do that. Also, throw out your speed reading.

[@wayneneher6362]

Seatbelts!! Racing harnesses! Not just the assembly of the belts, but the manufacture of all the parts, from the bolts to the webbing. Do the history of restraints, from the earliest to our latest.

[@Juliansa537]

Can’t wait to see more coverage of the IH truck!

[@briandale5645]

The best sh!t in a minute . Thank you for taking me to converter school I will save this 😊.

[@immanutt4442]

Thank you for sharing this turourial

[@JTLaser1]

Ya know… I watch a lot of videos about Astro physics. I invented and patented a new kind of laser optics for use with X-rays. I am TOTALLY baffled by this conversation! Very interesting, but not a single thing I’ll be able to talk to my “car guy” brother! 😂

[@davidroberts6594]

I wished he would just let the boss talk without interrupting, boss is trying to explain

[@joshrootz8355]

More videos just like this!!!!! Love this

[@A2J_Tim]

rotating mass absolutely effects HP on the dyno, I have a video proving this with a balance shaft delete on a 4 cylinder car, then a light weight flywheel again picked up hp.

[@kennethcarmack8031]

Heck I'm from Muscle Shoals,AL. Never heard of Boss Hog torque converters. Just PTC, which is 1 of the best in the country.

[@justinwise6950]

Brings back memories of my auto transmission course! Still cool to watch!

[@adamlesandrini312]

No, it's actually Toyoda. They only charmed it because they were worried how it would sound in English

[@jerrywilcox9890]

Not what they call them in the US

[@jerrywilcox9890]

Ya Toyota sounds way better

[@NamesGolden]

would have gave you a free place to stay if I knew you were in my town. didn't even know there was another torque converter shop here other than ptc

[@davegallagher5121]

Ford says the most complicated part of it's machine is the automatic transmission... good stuff !!

[@carlsmith2826]

I’m so glad I ran across your channel

[@vaibhavdlv]

Amazing to see the innards of a torque convertor. thanks a lot!!

[@djmyth84]

I am so happy you made this video. I always had manual,so this answered so many question for me

[@mikekozi-lester3887]

Hi Jared nice video 📹 and workmanship!!!

[@chrislongbeard]

Hit up the guys at Kooks Headers. They did a tour for a bunch of guys in the club shortly before they went to NC.

[@roninthedestroyer8958]

I live in race car city [Mooresville, NC] where kooks is and other companies.

[@ericdolan2130]

25:27: "Not going as much into the metal"...That is not correct. Spray arc has far more penetration than that of Short Circuit or Globular Transfer. Great video overall.

[@AnthonyRBlacker]

Would you call 'spray arc' welding "sparc" welding? Ha. Ha. edit: I do the (did) the same Jared.. I'm a FAN of learning. I was lucky enough to have had a tv by 10, wow.. 1988 my parents were cool as hell.. we were poor but they got me a television back in the day well anyway, yeah man educational tv was ALL i ever watched. Still do the same today with KZbin.. : )

[@79tazman]

I know one thing about Muscle Shoals, AL and that is here was a cool recording studio there located at 3614 Jackson Highway that made so much awesome music Like Lynyrd Skynyrd's first album that was unreleased and they even sang about that studio in Sweet Home Alabama when they sing about Muscle Shoals has got the swampers And they've been known to pick a song or two Lord, they get me off so much They pick me up when I'm feelin' blue, now, how 'bout you? and they have done so many other awesome artists and awesome music. I just had to toss my two cents in about Muscle Shoals and now they make Converers too.

[@thomasthompson2084]

A lot of good information for high rpm and drag race guys but I'd like to see more for us big block lower rpm 4x4 guys who need it for climbing or towing

[@latamoutreach2328]

That was so much information!

[@bobsmmrs8712]

Very interesting! I’ve been curious how BMW is hoping to use torque converters to replace dual clutch.

[@Enjoymentboy]

Wait!!! Hold on!!! All these years I've thought that the factory trapped magic elves and locked one inside the converter, and occasionally a gremlin would be caught by mistake and that explains why a converter would just fail for no reason at the worst possible moment. You're telling my my high school shop teacher LIED to me and just either didn't know how they worked or didn't want to go through the trouble of explaining it? Man...now I don't know what to believe.

[@benrasmussen9878]

thanks, very informative

[@sirenda926]

Hey Jarod, great video explaination. something that I have always wondered about and so well explained

[@mickstermouseter7059]

I wish I understood everything that was said in this video. It's very interesting, but I would love to understand it. I was a jet mechanic in the USAF in the early 1970's so I understand stators and how they work, but I just don't understand how these things work. You can send a great torque converter for my 2012 Dodge Caravan 3.6L so it works the best that is possible.

[@avelord6135]

If I remember correctly, Clarckson was asked if he knew how a supercharger worked and his answer was "wichcraft" 😀

[@erikthie2253]

Torque converters sometimes fail. Based on the information you gave today, can you tell us the failure points?