Arnhem’s Ashes: How Op Market Garden sparked the Op Veritable planning disaster

[@russellchapman4167]

high quality stuff, thanks chaps

[@FlytheW11216]

Excellent presentation with detailed maps that made it easy to follow along!

[@rich_john]

Fantastic

[@iant2215]

Brilliant talk learnt lots, well worth a watch. Can't wait for Dermots book.

[@merdiolu]

I have read Denis Whitaker's "Rhineland , The Battle for Germany" and Peter Allen's "One More River" Both provide great insights to British and Canadian operations is Lower Rhine in 1945 winter and spring

[@MagisterMagnificum]

I can't keep watching this channel, my wallet is empty and my bookshelf is full. It was a good run!

[@WW2TV]

Well and keep this a secret - you don't have to buy the books! lol

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

The Churchills were the only tanks able to be used successfully in areas of the Reichswald forest, during Operation Veritable, with Shermans bogging down in the mud.

[@nickdanger3802]

Churchill and Sherman tanks (Tank trials) kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqTIgGWcZbx6esk

[@KrisV385]

Love these shows when the presenter brings the maps! Thanks Woody learned something new again!

[@robertoneill2502]

Another brilliant presentation

[@merdiolu]

Great one. But I think "disaster" is a little bit strong word here. Last time I checked both operations Veritable and supporting operation Grenade were success , maybe longer and more extended and more laborous than planned but eventually it inflicted over 94.000 casaulties and pretty much decimated First Gerrman Parachute Army , breached five defensive lines over a terrain that was hard to fight , crisscrossed streams , canals , muddy ground and woody terrain that was also flooded. RAF Bomber Commands making overbombing sorties on Goch and Kleve , bad weather , delay of launching Operation Grenade due to First US Army (Bradley's command) inability to secure Roer dams , despite all these factors , they prevailed without respite after almost four weeks of constant offensive fighting. When I hear "disaster" , slow" , "plodding" , "overcautious" , "too much material set piece" etc usually from US history narrative sources , I have no idea what they are talking about. British and Canadian armies in 21st Army Group were not US armies , their strenths and weaknesses were different. Unlike US , their manpower reserves was almost run out. There was a shortage of infantry among their divisions till 1945. The sector they were fighting was most fortified and geographically tough sectors of entire Rhine front and most reinforced by Germans due to close proximity to Ruhr industrial basin. So yes , under these conditions and bad weather , it made sense for a methodical advance with systematic application of firepower after a big build up. There was no easy fast solutions under these conditions when terrain was muddy so overflanking or crisscrossing by armor were not mostly possible and frontal advance was only option against strongly frontified and deeply deployed enemy defences and both British and Canadian armies were drilled exactly for that kind of set piece battles. So slow or set piece or overuse of material ? According to whom or what ? According to First , Third and Ninth US Armies that could not even advance even a friction it during 1944 autumn and winter only to be caught suprised at Ardennes ? Then only could pass West Wall due to diversion of German resources to Lower Rhine in February 1945 to stall Monty's 21st Army Group or Eastern Front to defend Reich Frontiers against Vistula-Oder Offensive in January 1945 and whatever reserves German Army Group B to defend Rhineland , deplated after Battle of Bulge or according to US Navy and Marine Corps advance , material and especially firepower deployment during this era against strategically controversial objectives like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in Pacific Theater and neverthless suffering extreme casaulties ?

[@Na808Koa]

In the words of Wallace & Grommet "Cracking show" Dermot and Woody, filled in a big gap in my knowledge of what happened after the Battle of the Bulge.

[@KevinJones-yh2jb]

Really enjoyed Dermot’s presentation, fantastic maps, logistics.This was an operation I had never really heard much about, I’ve learnt so much. Another book to buy, many thanks Dermot and Woody, a masterclass presentation thank you

[@HotRodMolina]

I wasn't in the sidebar today, but I was still listening in my car. I'm watching again now.

[@charliebarnes6225]

Nice one Derm !

[@ruudww2]

Great presentation, thanks!

[@davidlavigne207]

I always enjoy Dermot's presentations and this one was a humdinger. The points I gathered were 1. The intelligence was almost made to fit the expectations of the planners. 2. The lack of patrolling reminded me of the same problem that the 6th SS Panzer Army had which led to serious underestimating of the capability of the American forces facing them on the Northern shoulder in the Ardennes. 3. Expecting to move 30 Corps through the 15th Division's breakthrough, and some of the Canadian's units along the limited road network in late winter in the Netherlands was another example of wishful thinking. 4. The huge artillery bombardment gave away the intention of the attack early on, as well as created obstacles to mobility. Perhaps they might have taken the example of General Von Manteuffel in the Bulge who had ordered many patrols to identify the exact locations of enemy units, and who also got permission to limit his initial artillery bombardment to be short and accurate based upon his patrol intelligence. This was why the 5th Panzer Army was more successful in getting across the Our river and moving west early on. St. Vith was the only fly in the ointment, as I have learned from Greg Fontenot's "Loss and Redemption at St. Vith." I look forward to reading Dermot's book. Please pardon my wordy reply, but this was an interesting subject for me as I haven't known much about Veritable before.

[@johnlucas8479]

An excellent presentation Woody by Dermot

[@nigelmortimer4884]

On the must buy book list...exceptional

[@EnigmaCodeCrusher]

Great presentation 🎉

[@richardbennett1856]

My uncle said the British had M7s, but left them over the Rhine until they were unable to support the tanks. They used Priests as stationary artillery and troop carrers. Not what they were great at.(Mobility)

[@davemac1197]

Thought this would be about GATWICK rather than VERITABLE, so it was interesting to see the idea had a couple of other iterations in between and more invoved evolution. I recall reading that Horrocks wanted to go west for the (rail) bridge at Rhenen, when Arnhem appeared to be too far, and was denied permission for some unstated reason. Seems this was because Montgomery was already thinking of Wesel instead. Excellent presentation. Thanks guys.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@davemac1197 Hello dave, so whats your thoughts on Veritable overall, it certainly became quite clumsy didn't it, do you think there was room for improvement?

[@davemac1197]

@@Bullet-Tooth-Tony- Hi Tony. Haven't studied VERITABLE in detail except for research into maps and defences of the Reichswald, trying to find details dating back to MARKET GARDEN as distinct from the 1945 battle. The Reichswald sector of the Westwall in September 1944 was no more than trenches and dugouts in the forest between a few bunkers on the northern and southern fringes, with just a couple of battalions in the area. It was really the northern end of the line terminating at the polder area on the south bank of the Rhine. The 84.Infanterie-Division (remnants) were in the Venlo area and moved up to north of Kleve after the 82nd Airborne landed. Their Artillerie-Regiment (AR 184) was being rebuilt from a collection centre (auffanglager) of artillery troops gathered from units shattered in Normandy at the psychiatric hospital in Wolfheze, right in the middle of the British 1st Airborne landing zones. Montgomery called an official end to GARDEN on 7 October and had the Arnhem bridge bombed and the US Airborne on the 'island' to free up British units for GATWICK, but as you heard here, GATWICK got postponed by higher priorities on the left flank until it eventually came back resurrected as VERITABLE in February. Lots of connections, but quite a bit of time elapsed from MARKET GARDEN to VERITABLE, so my interest here is peripheral. The maps looked very familiar!

[@bananabrooks3836]

East midlands accent, maps and highlights: good. 👍

[@scorcher67]

Fascinating and just too much dam mud in the end .

[@Chiller11]

Excellent presentation. This book will definitely be on my list. As a Canadian I’ve recently become more aware and interested in regional British accents. What accent does Dermot Rooney have? I ask out of ignorance ant interest.

[@patrickwilliams6567]

I’m going to have to focus more on 21st Army Group, I tend to spend more time on USA stuff because, chauvinism I guess. Still, given the mud, straight up flooding and lack of logistical transport network, wasn’t the Canadian “3 or more weeks” vision more realistic from the start? Could the mobile forces have gotten some rest and been ready to go to town crossing the river in the spring when conditions improved. Mark me as team broad front. I don’t think a couple of bridges were going to suffice.

[@Colonel_Blimp]

In the old days armies went into winter quarters. We are much smarter today.

[@matt291]

Great presentation but the chirping in the background is intolerable!

[@WW2TV]

What chirping? I didn't hear anything, and no-one said anything in the comments when we were live

[@Chiller11]

I went back and listened to the episode again. The only distracting noise I heard was the constant ringing of my tinnitus.

[@WW2TV]

I think the issue must have been at Matt's end, I listened again and could not hear any extraneous sound

[@matt291]

​@@WW2TV31:59 I listened on two devices. It's there in the background. It sounds like a fan with a bad bearing. Most people lose high frequency hearing as they get older.😂 It's still a good presentation!

[@WW2TV]

@@matt291 So I downloaded the audio directly from Streamyard and analysed it, and I couldn't see anything at all at a high frequency. In previous cases like this, more than one person notice, so I am baffled by this