Arnhem - Black Tuesday

Arnhem - Black Tuesday
With Al Murray
Part of our Arnhem Week series
• Arnhem Week
More Operation Market Garden and Arnhem content on WW2TV
• Operation Market Garde...
More Airborne Forces content on WW2TV
• Airborne Forces
Also part of our 80th Anniversary Series
• 80th Anniversary Special
Al Murray has always been obsessed by this legendary battle, and in Arnhem: Black Tuesday he showcases all of his knowledge, interpretation and enthusiasm to bear to tell the story of one of history’s great heroic failures differently for the first time. The Battle of Arnhem is one of the best-known stories in British military history: a daring but doomed attempt to secure a vital bridgehead across the Rhine in order to end the war before Christmas 1944. It is always written about, with the benefit of unerring 20/20 hindsight, as being destined to fail, but the men who fought there, men of military legend, didn't know that that was to be their fate.
Tuesday 19 September 1944 was the terrible day which became known as Black Tuesday. From just after 1200 hours while plans were being made to seize the initiative and optimism reigned, to the following midnight, when Arnhem was burning and the Allied fortunes looked very different, a mere twenty-four hours changed the course of the war.
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[@therealuncleowen2588]

The Dutch gratitude for the Allied effort at Market Garden is one of the most heartwarming aspects of WW2 history. I say that without irony. The fact that they can say thanks guys, you did your best and we're grateful that you tried, is just amazing.

[@PaulDear-jb2bu]

Just yesterday my daughter asked me what I wanted for my birthday in November, my answer was Al's book. I really enjoyed this Paul. Many thanks.

[@ackers36]

“My first marriage” 😂😂😂😂

[@ThisWeekintheItalianCampaign]

The final comment about the extraordinary generosity of the Dutch people is very telling. There is a tradition of placing the photos of those buried on cemeteries in the Netherlands that involves all generations. Amazingly, Dutch volunteers worked to ensure that hundreds of graves in CWGC cemeteries in Sicily had photo portraits placed on them to mark the 80th anniversary of Husky. God Bless the people of the Netherlands!

[@THEOUTCASTSCREATIVE]

'My first marriage....' with you there Al

[@peterbrown1208]

Gotta love All and the way he knows his stuff. I think the only way to judges OMG is by realizing the ground gained led to more advances. I guess the movie title is probably the best conclusion.

[@cameronsimpson-ld8nk]

I loved this episode....gripping

[@markrunnalls7215]

Absolutely totally brill Paul ,Mr Al Murry deserves an OBE /MBE ..

[@ianprice9563]

I really like Al Murray for all kinds of reasons, but I am truly thankful that we don’t dish out state awards for a pleasing performance on KZbin - or for writing a good book!

[@davidlavigne207]

When watching the reply of Al and Woody's fantastic discussion, I was impressed with the objective viewpoint that Mr. Murray had about the mistakes made during the operation. Clearly there were mistakes made from the initial planning, but also by the American and British Divisional Commanders. I've always thought that the initial drop zones for ALL of the first lift were much to far from the objectives. General Brereton, and his staff overestimated the effect of the German Flak defenses IMHO. This was likely due to the heavy losses they incurred during Overlord. I think that with the huge advantage of tactical air that was available on the 17th could suppressed the FLAK defenses long enough to allow the drops and glider landings to succeed with an acceptable risk. Everyone likes to point out the drop zones of the 1st Airborne on the 17th, but the 101st and 82nd drop zones weren't all that close as well. This was the ultimate reason for the failure for it allowed the Germans time, which is the most valuable commodity in a battle. Great points made by both guest and host shall have me thinking about MG for some time.

[@kevinfrank5527]

Good analysis. I'm going to play devils advocate on a couple things. I would argue that the assessment of the danger of FLAK was fairly accurate including the level of suppression caused by tactical air. Keep in mind that this is the first major daylight operation. You can look to Varsity and the FLAK casualties incurred in that operation. However, I would argue that the error with regard to FLAK is an unwillingness to risk the possible casualties. In Varsity, the operation was able to succeed in spite of the heavy FLAK. Perhaps this falls largely on Brereton as an Air Force guy who sees the transports as vulnerable assets to be protected versus a more airborne attitude ( Gavin, Taylor) who would be more willing to accept certain risks. The other point would be the drop zone locations. I would argue that the drop zones were properly selected based on the current experience and doctrine. Drop zones were (especially in a multi-lift operation) meant to be held for the duration of airborne operations. Also, they needed to be large and as free from impediments (buildings, water, power wires, etc) as possible. As such the drop zones were - by doctrine at least - correctly chosen. However, an argument can still be made for force distribution decisions made by the division commanders based on those drop zones. The most obvious being Gavin and the 82nd decision to focus on securing his drop zone versus seizing the Nijmegen bridges (the main mission objective).

[@davidlavigne207]

@@kevinfrank5527 Your reply is very thoughtful and well spoken. I believe that when planning the operation it might have occurred to someone that if the knowledge of the enemy was uncertain, and the reinforcement schedule and resupply required drops and glider landings over three days, than the plan should have been modified or the operation called off. The whole thing was just so much wishful thinking which resulted in costly defeat. I do believe that although no one had foreknowledge of the dispositions of the German Army in the Netherlands, there was enough to beg the question: What if there are more units than we know of, and is there armor involved? I think that the aggressiveness of the Airborne Divisions was such that they put too much pressure on themselves, and so ignored Sun Tsu's words of wisdom to "Know thy self, know thine enemy, and in a thousand battles thou shall know victory." I realize that may sound a bit trite, or overblown, but it does ring true. Thank you again for your considerate reply.

[@cherylbell1253]

That was brilliant! Thank you Paul & Al! Definitely another book to add to my TBR.

[@MordorsMadness]

Very high praise from Paul, enough of a recommendation for me to pick up a copy. Gutted i missed the live. Great content as always.

[@surfacingcom]

You mean Al's response wasn't "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!" Love your work, Al, standing up or sitting down.

[@garyaugust1953]

Al's obsession with MG shines through. As always, his attention to the detail, the people involved, and the terrain they had to endure and undertake is just top-notch. I'll always take your glowing recommendation Woody and order a copy of the book today. Great show, mutual respect, which is always nice to see.

[@kevingetz9262]

Absolutely great discussion and timed beautifully as I’m on Arnhem for the 80th. Great see content regarding the Woods and 4th Brigade. Really looking forward to reading Black Tuesday. Tip of the cap to you both.

[@JakeCole1453]

Hi Paul, great chat with Al. He's some man for one man when it comes to Arnhem. Really enjoying all the Market Garden stuff you're doing this week. I hope the other Al with surname of Gorithm who works on this platform hasn't been playing up. It deserves a wide audience.

[@WW2TV]

Glad you enjoyed it Jake, I have seen a small spike in views this week, but it's been a crap summer. It's Patreon that keeps me afloat

[@davidduffy5944]

Ah lads, this was a brilliant discussion, I never thought of details such as what weapon was better in each environment, Al was excellent

[@WW2TV]

Glad you liked to mate

[@jasonmussett2129]

Very interesting, great talk. Other factors Market Garden was launched was too outflank the Seigfried Line from the North due to the Allied advance stalling due to supply issues, also to overrun any remaining V-1 sites. Some believe Arnhem was a vanity project which should never have been attempted, as a historian, I do. Nevertheless I enjoyed this one. Nice one Woody, Mr Murray. Lest we forget.

[@andymoody8363]

Absolutely brillaint, Louis'e book present is all wrapped and ready!

[@mikemerritt1443]

Fantastic presentation by Al. Gives a whole new propestic of the battle.

[@andrewthorpe2539]

I just twigged that Al has a dennison draped over his chair. Great conversation, fascinating to hear the engineers experience.

[@KevG1962]

Another brilliant episode, thank you woody and AL

[@liamponsonby1862]

Love the story of the padre in 3 para. A very much similar thing happened in Afghanistan 2011/2012.

[@timbrown1481]

Great presentation. Dissecting a single day from this colossal operation.

[@stuartburbridge8091]

Just catching up - finished the book a couple of hours ago, an absolute tour de force which explained the battle to me in a completely unique way, a must-read - promote it to the top of your book pile!

[@dominicsoave5090]

I’m catching up too

[@Caratacus1]

IMHO Al is spot on to focus on what the situation looked like to SHAEF when OMG got the green light. The Germans looked beaten, and recent historical evidence backed that up. For several weeks the Allies looked like they can do no wrong. Victory disease affected every Army at some point. German, Russian, Japanese, Allied. All of them, and it's entirely understandable. Also agree that it could easily have worked. 1AB exceeded their brief in terms of staying power but it was lost at Nijmegen. Thanks Woody and Al.

[@mongolike513]

I have just finished reading Chester Wilmot’s ‘Struggle for Europe’. Market Garden was the perfect storm when Model and Student had their HQs within 5 miles of Nijmegen ! Para radios had wrong crystals while one channel that they had working was being overpowered by a radio station broadcasting at another part of the front, so they could not contact RAF or their artillery . Add to that the late starts to the attack and the distance from the target they were dropped at. I have read Al’s book “Command” and it was very good with each chapter revealing information about particular characters and also a relatively obscure aspect of WW2 itself. Do yourself a favour.

[@PaulDear-jb2bu]

@@mongolike513 I'm reading that book atm.

[@dominicsoave5090]

Very humbling

[@nickdanger3802]

Being in an important position did not stop Montgomery from rubbishing Eisenhower when Eisenhower was president.

[@WW2TV]

And yet they remained friends

[@maikelvane5185]

Nice conversation. Arnhem week is a blast. Learninng a lot new things. Thanks guys. Will put the book to my wishlist.

[@kevinw59tab]

i got the audio of black Tuesday it really opened up that one day thanks Al

[@TonyLS9A]

Another truly amazing, dynamic and informative discussion. Al is a ball of energy, packed with knowledge. Bravo, Paul. And yep, another book for my sagging shelves.

[@martinpower2439]

Great episode and of course very timely

[@jamesdalyhistory]

Bang on that Al's book is up there with Middlebrook and Kershaw. What I love is that it's a completely new interpretation of something that we thought that we knew all about.

[@WW2TV]

I'm glad we agree

[@jsfbr]

Stored in my Audible's wish list for buying with my next credit!

[@jbjones1957]

Great sales pitch, I just bought the book

[@StevenParker-zs8jx]

Excellent episode! Thanks Al and Woody!

[@NOTBOBROBERTS]

Hadn't heard of this book and thanks to you guys, I'm now $49 Canadian dollars poorer when I should be focusing on my upcoming tour of Verdun and The Somme. I've visited Arnhem/Oosterbeek 3 times and my next visit I plan to do this walk.

[@WW2TV]

It's a cracker of a book

[@marchuvfulz]

Thank you, excellent discussion.

[@scorcher67]

Going to have to buy the book now . A real element of a forlorn hope with the efforts to relieve Frost at the bridge . Tragic loss of good men but on reflection I agree with Al it was probably worth a go.

[@Digmen1]

I always thought that they should have gone one bridge at a time. Have the paras ready to go for the next bridge. And wait until the road is open and running

[@nickdanger3802]

"By the time the German opposition had solidified on D+1, with mortars, light flak and armoured vehicles, there was really no chance of relieving Frost at the bridge, even with communications at their best." page 51 Canadian Military History Volume 16 Issue 1 Article 4 2007 Airborne Communications in Operation Market Garden David Bennett

[@gl2773]

Not just Al. I still have the report I wrote about Arnhem 46 years ago for a school project.

[@HGmusiclist]

Nice show, Al is great and really enthusiastic. The Dutch names, yes, we can practise some in October Paul 🤪

[@dmeadeirl]

Top notch conversation. Ordering Al's book right now!

[@WW2TV]

It's brilliant

[@guyhancox4246]

Bloody hell, ww2tv had disappeared from my feed completely. I am going to have to remind myself to keep coming back.... Keep up the good work Woody.

[@WW2TV]

Thank you Guy

[@PalleRasmussen]

Brilliant, sorry I had to leave for my GoMore lift. After I left, Louise Provan asked; "​​Im guessing oil etc, must have started to be a major concern to Germany by then. When they said "space" did they mean resources too?" That was the meaning of space from the start, basically WW2 was a fight for the same thing Putolini wants today- Ukraine (Timothy Snyder makes that point) with its resources of all kinds. And for oil, the most important startegic resource in WW2. Before he went off the rails, TIK linked to a good lecture about the struggle for oil in WW2 by some unknown Ph.D. which is well worth a watch. That fellow posits that the powers that became superpowers were the ones with the most oil.

[@timaitchison7348]

Just one interesting conversation. Let's have more please.

[@iancarr8682]

Re: Hackett - brilliance and common sense are not good bedmates sometimes.

[@jjflash30]

Great discussion! Thanks. 👍

[@bruceday6799]

2 helluva presentations today sir.

[@tomtruax6775]

Another interesting and enlightening presentation.

[@buonafortuna8928]

Really great stuff Paul. Was as new and insightful as yesterday's - and I thought I knew OMG. I've had the book for 3 days but I'm determined to save it for my trip to England tomorrow.

[@philipmoores5202]

Thank you I will look forward to it.

[@terrywoodham8419]

Brilliant just so interesting 👍

[@KeithHathaway-ju9cy]

Paul, that was amazing great job

[@Pseudonym-aka-alias]

Just took delivery of Black Tuesday….can’t wait to get into it……not literally☝️

[@steveb5341]

Great vid Woody looking forward to getting Al’s book 👏🏻🪖

[@johnlucas8479]

excellent presentation, keep up the good work

[@jumpmastermp21]

Great show

[@Digmen1]

Al, you wont be able to put a lid on it, as there are 6 other days to do!

[@THEOUTCASTSCREATIVE]

Book ordered!!!

[@jasonmussett2129]

I think one reason why the Germans reacted so quickly was due to the availability of not only the Waffen SS guys but also they could draught in troops from all over Holland, also German supply lines were much shorter then the Allies. Also, the notion that all the Germans had were old men and kids seemed to blind Allied thinking. Another example of hubris.

[@joeblow9657]

I didn't know a pub land lord could know so much about the Battle of Arnhem.

[@WW2TV]

He is a staggeringly good military historian too

[@gavinsimnett7606]

Really enjoyed this. You mentioned a chaplain who picked up a pistol can you tell me how I can find out more about him please? I belong to a reenactment group Men of Arnhem and I am a chaplain in that.

[@WW2TV]

The full story is in Black Tuesday, which is a MUST HAVE

[@gavinsimnett7606]

Thanks

[@russellchapman4167]

Brlliant stuff guys

[@WW2TV]

Thanks Derm

[@KavanOBrien]

My uncle was in that battle at Arnhem , staff sergeant paras , he told me why it went wrong , so if you don’t mention the radio in your assessment then you haven’t got the whole story.

[@WW2TV]

Why do you think radios are not mentioned in the book, because they absolutely are?

[@KavanOBrien]

@@WW2TV sorry I was referring to the video, I haven’t read the book ,I remember my uncle telling me about the battle and the radio being one of the main issues, he was shot and taken prisoner of war when many were dropped over the German lines , obviously sat nav wasn’t available then ,

[@WW2TV]

In an hour-long chat we cannot get to all the aspects of the 460 page book

[@KavanOBrien]

@@WW2TV Fair comment , still have his medal from that battle, take care.

[@WW2TV]

You too - thanks. Which Battalion was your Uncle with?

[@MegaRebel100]

minuut 45 gents , i felt the wrong , Monty ( de guingand ) monty was making a paiting forget gents .. The plan too mutch fot the army , goals too fat a way , never looked at the ground conditones , streetfighting and Monty make the mistake too ignore are repports ove rthe germans , hy ignored them the result is you both talking about and at last Wesel has a railroad too Nijmgen so germans could fast travel from there too the front .. I all I a dutchman say less bridge and too move up till nijmgen and stop there ( with the 3 korps ) taht plan has worked , looking back ...

[@stevenpeiper5538]

This guy is no more a historian than I am an astronaut

[@WW2TV]

Absolutely incorrect. A) he literally graduated from Oxford University in modern history and B) His book on Arnhem is outstanding. Did you even listen to this video, his knowledge on the battle is up there with the best

[@stevenpeiper5538]

@@WW2TV keep taking the medication

[@WW2TV]

What is incorrect with what I said? and as I asked, have you read the book and did you watch the video?

[@stevenpeiper5538]

The point I’m making is that serious historians don’t hawk their “product” around just about every podcast, you tube channel and tv show you can think of. Also , the title of his own podcast is crassly disrespectful to victims of Gestapo interrogation in my view.

[@WW2TV]

Historians absolutely have to appear on podcasts etc. Ben MacIntyre, James Dimbleby etc they all have to do the rounds, it's part of the process now. As for the title of the podcast, that's an opinion others hold, and I see why some don't like it, but that doesn't make Al "not" a historian, which was your first point

[@mikeryan7468]

I cannot stand al Murray. He takes the piss out of working class people. What an insult.

[@WW2TV]

So, why watch and make a comment then?

[@mikeryan7468]

@WW2TV so if someone dislikes content or is personally offended by someone, don't comment. Is that the kind of channel you want? Al Murray is offensive to a lot of people. Keep one's comments to yourself. I understand now. 'He's great everyone'

[@WW2TV]

He doesn't take the piss out of working class people, the Landlord is an exaggerated character like Alf Garnett. But that aside, he was on the channel as a military historian not as a comedian

[@mikeryan7468]

Ok fair enough. I appreciate the reply.

[@WW2TV]

No worries, and whatever you think of his comedy, I've met a fair few celebs and although some are arseholes, Al is a really lovely bloke. He's very hardworking and does a huge amount to push WWII history

[@BrianMarcus-nz7cs]

Fresh n honest , no comment bud i wernt there , gott mitt uns , 👍🧭🤺