Marching Into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus

Marching Into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus
With Waitman Wade Beorn
Holocaust content on WW2TV
• The Holocaust
More Third Reich content on WW2TV
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Today we look at the following:
1) POWs
2) Holocaust
3) Treatment of civilians
4) "anti-partisan" war
Waitman Wade Beorn is a Holocaust historian who studies the Holocaust in Eastern Europe. He is currently a Senior Lecturer in History at Northumbria University in Newcastle, UK. Previously, he served as the Louis and Frances Blumkin Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at the University of Nebraska-Omaha. From 2015-2016, he was the executive director of the Virginia Holocaust Museum in Richmond, Va.
www.waitmanwbe...
Waitman's previous show:
10 Facts about the Holocaust everyone should know • 10 Facts about the Hol...
Marching into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus by Waitman Wade Beorn
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The Holocaust in Eastern Europe: At the Epicenter of the Final Solution by Professor Waitman Wade Beorn
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[@jeffbraaton4096]

This presentation by Waitman Wade Beorn is another reason why History Studies of SWW are still relevant. For me, I didn't know anything about the Holocaust in Belarus and this is a very hard show to watch, but very necessary. I was completely engaged. Waitman's has done some very good research in a former Soviet country, which is hard and he was able to speak with survivors primary sources are key to these kind of studies. I look forward to his next presentation. Thank you Paul and Waitman

[@WW2TV]

It's worth watching Waitman's first appearance kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6TKqpalYrx3ZtE

[@jeffbraaton4096]

I'll check it out. Thank you Paul

[@frankmiller95]

Check out "Come And See."

[@philbosworth3789]

Waitman has provided another great presentation; The dark side of war, but an integral part of what was going on.

[@alistairclarke6726]

Such a delicate subject, and you guys handled it with the dignity yet thoroughness it requires. I liked how yourself and others pointed out that we are not responsible for what our ancestors did.

[@brbear54]

The scariest movie that I have ever seen has been the 1984 Wannsee Conference. Just some guys sitting in a room, playing with a dog, eating cake and chatting up the secretary, oh and planning out the Final Solution and whole sale genocide." Hey. I found a way to make the trains profitable!" True evil does not have horns. It is a bureaucrat trying to please the boss. And carried out by some one who looks like the kid who used to deliver your newspaper. Think about it. Enough people puffing away on the same crazy pipe, get power and put a uniform on the kid who just took your order at McDonald's and it can happen again. With that. Good night and pleasant dreams.

[@lastburning]

Watch Come and See.

[@ernstwiltmann6]

Thank you so much for going deeper into the Subject, as I requested a few month ago. Even learned a few more things through your guest. You are doing a Great Service to Humanity, for bringing up this almost unknown topic in the West.

[@spankflaps1365]

This has helped to explain the German’s “thinking” for the hell that is shown in “Come and see”. I’ve recently been listening to Philip Ittner, who mentions the WW2 massacres in Belarus and Ukraine.

[@donaldkepple4927]

I have come and see on blu ray great movie but shows the brutality of the dirlewanger brigade total barbaerity

[@provjaro]

Fascinating show of such a terrifying subject. Incredible research.

[@gregorydotreppe1970]

Thank you for this very important episode. A historian that might be worthwhile inviting on WW2TV is Edith Sheffer who has written on the Nazi eugenic efforts in Vienna as they relate to the Aktion T4 program.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks for the suggestion

[@ernstwiltmann6]

I also recommend Andrey Martianov. Learned about him through an interview by the Canadian Journalist Eva K Bartlett in 2022.

[@lllordllloyd]

Great presentation. As an Australian so many of these questions and themes apply strongly to our own early (and some not so early) colonial history. Wew all need to step outside ourselves when discussing how evil occurs, how it affects history, how it is excused and how we generally really want to avoid and forget it. I'm pretty new to the channel and am enjoying everything. Greetings from Arras.

[@expo7112]

Ya you pretty much got the crappiest people from Europe😂

[@bobbyl6972]

Brilliant and important work/shows! Keep up the good work Woody!

[@damageincorporated8558]

Descendants of these people have never forgotten what happened but to see it put on screen brings it into reality again, all of the people in the west that never cared cannot understand the feeling 👍, Really good video, thank you both, Great last sentiment from the guy with hair, there are good people everywhere and everything is dynamic at all times,, even then, it's something that is important now

[@pritbuttar4338]

An important, harrowing and informative presentation.

[@carolancarey992]

thank you for dedicating your education and intelligence to share this topic. That is what war is, the elimination of humanity

[@WW2TV]

Thank you Carolan

[@robertoneill2502]

Powerful discussion, Waitman needs to come back

[@mightymuzrub]

Another great episode

[@step4024]

Whitman has explained a very horrific aspect of the war in the East. He's been another great guest Paul and hope he can return frequently, as this subject needs highlighting frequently to educate people of what happened and what the German's are capable of doing. Not just Himmler, the S.S , but their army, who have in the past tried to distance themselves from these evil, wicked, disgusting policies. You Paul, tell it all, say it all and don't hesitate to include aspects of World war 2, that some people, shall we say, often prefer to overlook and not tackle and remind people of what Germany is capable of.

[@jonathanmarsh5955]

Thank you, Waitman and Paul, for that harrowing presentation. As you both point out, there is so much about the Holocaust, and the associated behaviours of the perpetrators, that needs to be clearly and irrefutably stated. We must have the facts, the evidence and the analyses in order to learn from them. Otherwise, we waste our time as Historians. As I've got older I have found that I have to take breaks from researching, or even updating the Historiography concerning, the Holocaust. I'm not as mentally resilient as I once thought I was, which is probably no bad thing. Keep up the good work.

[@Kernmayr]

Excellent presentation - this subject doesn't get the attention it deserves, because like Mr. Beorn said, people would rather discuss their favorite tank or aircraft rather than emotionally fraught topics like this. I've read the case study he wrote for West Point cadets in cooperation with the USHMM ("Ordinary Soldiers: A Study in Ethics, Law, and Leadership") and it drives the point home even more forcefully in a manner that makes a significant emotional impact upon cadets.

[@ernstwiltmann6]

My Grandfather was working for General Reinhard Gehlens Intel outfit "Fremde Heere Ost", often leading "Hiwi" Batallions against Belorussian Partisans. There were no quarters given, nor any expected. Eventually Elem Klimov's movie "Come and See" opened my eyes, how that looked like. That movie is available on KZbin in dubbed and subbed versions. Because my Grandfather did not tell me anything. As a kid, I was wondering that nice and kind Uncle's in American, British and Canadian Uniforms often visited Opa. Only to find out in 1998, when Mom passed away, that Opa was part of Operation Paperclip.

[@sheilahall9814]

I love what he says at the very end about how it wasn't brainwashing. People did recognize and knew it was wrong. His point about slavery and the Civil War was also spot on my non expert opinion. I think that saying it was "brainwashing" or "common" often becomes a way of excusing the behavior of perpatrators. I love listening to him. He is engaging when he speaks.

[@marks_sparks1]

Great show. Had to watch this later as I knewcit would be hard hitting. Some sobering statistics provided by Waitman. Wehrmacht operational planning goes lockstep with Nazi extermination policy into the USSR. Our regular viewer Pat M asked in the livechat; why did the Wehrmacht units report clearly Jewish mass murders as partisans only, if their superiors would've been happy to see Jewish populations reduced?? I can only surmise that as part of Operation Barbarossa planning, an unofficial unspoken order was passed down through the Wehrmacht ranks and units to deliberately not report Jewish killings. Professor Robert van Pelt said in a documentary film "Rise & Fall of Fred Leuchter" that the first practitioners of H'caust denial were the Nazis themselves by use of coded, obscure banal terms in the encrypted messages and written orders they used in day to day operations. They were denying to themselves they were performing this extermination. He said this in the context of Operation Rheinhardt and other death camps. But it's not a mental stretch to say that the Wehrmacht got a similar hint to say nothing sinister and therefore it built up a self-sustaining lie that they were "clean" when they wrote home to their families in Germany or in later years when sitting down with the grandchild on their lap. Using terms like "anti-partisan" and later "anti-bandit" in official orders just covered a multitude of sins for all involved. Post war, the second generation of H'caust deniers will point to these lack of smoking guns in correspondence to try muddy the waters regarding the actual truth what happened in the east.

[@elizabethcanavan3755]

Soviet prisoners were in a double jeopardy,considered traitors by their own side,and brutally treated by the Nazis.The 'liberated 'prisoners then entered a new hell,in which the soviets sent the 'common' soldiers 'to the Gulags and tortured and shot the officers.The bitter irony was that the majority of the soviet soldiers who ended up in Nazi captivity was the result of Joe Stalin's bungling.

[@frederickwiddowson]

It is productions like this that underscore the urgency and necessity of the fight against Hitlerism as well as Imperial Japan and both of their allies. After seeing these shows when I watch Masters of the Air or Band of Brothers or The Pacific again my guts will be churning over their crusades. There is a sense of desperation as well as a "work to be done".

[@bikesnippets]

Harrowing..... but outstanding.

[@mathewkelly9968]

27:45 the Australians in Australia , we don't get off free on this account either .

[@timbrown1481]

I applaud your ability to talk about the nasty dark side of the German Army and other murderers of innocent civilians. This is a tough subject to deal with. That you both for treating this subject with dignity and giving the dead a voice.

[@jimplummer4879]

History, whether good or bad, has to be studied and understood, not swept under the rug.

[@ernstwiltmann6]

Hiwi anti Partisan force's consisted of ROA, Police Batallions, and Ukrainian SS units. Our Canadian Paliament celebratet the SS Man Yaroslav Hunka from the 4th SS Division Galicia with 2 standing ovations, just in September of last year, as a Ukrainian War Hero.

[@SiTheSly]

Brutal and very dark. An excellent look back at history. You are doing a first class job of education. OK, I will be honest. I love your shows, but some are so weird that I do not watch them. However that said, I admire your passion to explore or should I say give voice to someone who has studied the effects of socks in WWII. Take care and love to your beautiful wife.

[@WW2TV]

Ah well, I'm trying to not just do the same stories covered elsewhere

[@untermunchkin4380]

I assume that Yad Vashem historian Yaron Pasher would respectfully disagree with your guest's assertion that the logistics of the Nazis murdering the Jews of Europe had minimal effect on the Wehrmacht's conduct of the war on the Eastern Front. This is the first paragraph of the Amazon promotion of Dr. Pahser's 2015 book, "Holocaust versus Wehrmacht: How Hitler's 'Final Solution Undermined the German War Effort": "In 1941, as Nazi Germany began its disastrous campaign against the Soviet Union, Hitler's other campaign, to exterminate European Jewry, was also commencing in earnest. What began with organized executions carried out by the Einsatzgruppen evolved into systematic genocide, reaching its frenzied final moments just as the Wehrmacht was meeting defeat on the military front. These campaigns-and Germany's failure-were inextricably linked, Yaron Pasher tells us in Holocaust versus Wehrmacht. Pasher argues, in fact, that the major share of the logistical problems faced by the Wehrmacht during World War II stemmed from Hitler's obsession with securing the resources-especially from the Reichsbahn railway-needed to implement the "Final Solution." To a degree never fully recognized or understood, Hitler's anti-Semitic ideology was his war's undoing." Pasher's book caused an uproar of criticism from some mainstream Holocaust writers because, as I see it, one implication of the book is that Hitler and his German collaborators needlessly sacrificed the lives of young German soldiers to murder Jewish mothers and their babies, among other Jews. I speculate that it reignited for these writers the memory of the controversy stirred by Goldhagen's book, "Hitler's Willing Executioners" in which Goldhagen claimed, as I interpret him, that Germans murdered Jews because... they liked murdering Jews. Pasher's critics go deep into the records of the Reichsbann railway to show quantitatively just how little of its resources were used to transport Jews to their slavery (euphemistically referred to as "forced labor"), torture, and asphyxiation. I haven't read Pasher's book so I am agnostic whether his critics or he has the stronger case. The criticism is laughable nonetheless; for if I were a Wehrmacht warrior starving to death for lack of rations or freezing to death for lack of boots and socks, I would be really pissed if Hitler spent even one Deutschmark on murdering Jews instead of provisioning his soldiers. Hitler's murdering of the Jews may not have cost him the war, but it certainly did not help him win it unless the objective of the war was to murder nearly all the Jews of Europe: he won that war hands down.

[@waitmanwb]

I never heard of this book until today. Admittedly, I hadn't read it butI went and looked at some of the reviews and found this book has been sharply critiqued by such eminent scholars as Peter Hayes. From his review, for example: "Wolfgang Scheffler’s studies prepared in the 1960s and 1970s established that Germany needed a mere 2,000 trains to move approximately 3,000,000 Jews to camps between 1942 and 1944: roughly two transports a day. Raul Hilberg quotes a former railroad official as saying that the Reichsbahn operated 20,000 trains per day during that period.2" Hayes also writes, "How does Pasher call these consensuses into question? Partly by overlooking much of the secondary literature." This is damning criticism in a scholarly review article. Other scholars had similar reactions. This would have been mine as well. In the grand scheme of things, the numbers simply don't bear out his argument.

[@untermunchkin4380]

@@waitmanwb Hayes has a dog in the fight. He claimed in Why? that the transportation of the Jews had minimal effect on the Wehrmacht's conduct of the war. I don't know how to break this to you; scholars don't review other scholars' written work in Amazon comments. It's done in journals. Accordingly, Hayes's criticism can and should be disregarded as hysterical. But you are right----other scholars, who also have dogs in the fight, have criticized the book in journals-----and I highlighted that fact in my post. Pasher may have bitten off more than he could chew. I don't care a whit; for even if the transportation of Jews to their murder, torture, or enslavement did not materially affect the outcome of any Nazi operation, the fact remains that Wehrmacht soldiers freezing in Stalingrad or being chewed up in Belarus during Bagration just had to wonder why Hitler and his generals were spending even a dime on murdering Jews when that coin could have been better spent on provisioning him. Western historians just cannot believe that their Nazi landsmen were so bloodthirsty in waging the War against the Jews. That's why they brutalized Goldhagen so badly.

[@asafb1984]

For hitler killing the Jews was major part of the war. The cost for germany was not considerd so the impact on logistic was not relevent for the nazies.

[@chrislondo2683]

I wonder if any of the Red Army soldiers from the Belarusian villages and only to discover when they came back were burned down?

[@frankmiller95]

There seems what appears to be a frequent mischaracterization of the German Heer in these episodes as the Wehrmacht. To be fair, l made the same (mis)characterization myself until recently.

[@WW2TV]

Yes, but I think that it's an acceptable shorthsnd. Heer, although more correct as a term, seems not to be understood by many

[@frankmiller95]

@@WW2TV Thanks for your response. Just recently came across your channel and as a lifelong student of 19th and 20th century military history, like it very much. Excellent work.

[@frankmiller95]

@@WW2TV No question. Until recently, l too thought it meant German Army.

[@Deathtroopers09]

Keep in mind people would sell others out if they thought that maybe it will spare themselves and their family

[@54tisfaction]

Regarding the comparison of "Lebensraum", Colonialism and "Manifest destiny", it makes me wonder in what degree the idea of Overpopulation figures in these ideologies... Besides the popularity of Eugenics and "population control" during this era, there was also the World Population Conference that took place in Geneva in 1927 that shows the prevalence of the notion that the population of the world was growing exponentially, but the availability of arable land was limited and finite in the end - Thus actual farmland would in the future force conflicts between nations unable to feed their booming populations (this idea is basically disproven today, but I remember it being an issue of debate still in the 80-90's, and featured in movies like "Soylent Green"). Was the idea of Lebensraum also fueled by the idea of Germany becoming too "crowded" in a near future?

[@WW2TV]

Overpopulation came into the reason to an extent, but ideology was the driving force I think

[@54tisfaction]

@@WW2TV Yes, but was Overpopulation part of the Nazi ideology? For example, the idea of Eugenics was condemned after the war as Pseudoscience, but the idea of Overpopulation lived on. It is as if that flawed idea was given a pass...

[@carmenlear1349]

Kaiser Wilhelm supported "living space" in Namibia during early 1900's. Germans rounded up tribes defending their need to exist also. Genocide, concentration camps, starvation & forced enslavement to San & Herrero plus other ppl in Namibia. It's a lesson the Nazis perfected against all undesirables so they could expand. Hitler is no genius. His plans doomed him to only 12 of a third reich.

[@JasonSmith-pe5py]

Very interesting show....though depressing. Its just so awful for these countries like Belarus-to get stuck in the paths of 2 of the most brutal regimes in history. These people litterally couldnt win. Whether occupied by Stalin or Hitler-they got screwed by fate either way. Obviously certain groups had a better chance under 1 or the other. As bad as Stalin was-obviously any Jew is gonna at least have a chance for life under the USSR-as repressive as it was. They had no chance to live under the NAZIs. But how many of these poor people had multiple family members murdered by both sides of brutal occupiers. And when 1 ruled their land-ya couldnt really say no to the brutal occupiers-but as soon as the opposite side took your town-you could be labeled a colaborator simply cuz you survived the other sides occupation,& didnt fight them to the death. The "Holocaust by bullrts" is greatly overshadowed by the death camps-though far more died by bullets. But even more overshadowed-are attrocities commited by the Soviets on these people. Some during WW2-but far more before,& after. And yes they were part of the USSR-but certainly not by choice. Amazing,& flat out unfair-that so many innocents fate comes down to random luck where you were born. Its why-as imperfect as America-or the West is-I make sure my kids realize how lucky we are-simply that we were born when we were born,& where we were born. Alot of it just boils down to simple geography. My ancestors came to America just before WW1 from Italy,& Germany.Had they stayed in Italy or Germany...or moved to Belarus/Ukraine/Poland-none of us may have ever even been born. And obviously there are countless other places we could list. It really doesnt get worse than say being born in Cambodia in the mid to late 70s for example-whenever the Khmer Rhouge arguably made the NAZIs,Imperial Japanese,& Soviets almost look humane by comparison...(ok slight exageration there-but you get my point. Im sure they murdered more on scale-if you factor in the small population they ruled compared to those other more well known brutal regimes. So much so-that the Vietnamese communists couldnt even believe-or put up with their level of inhumanity...that,& they got tired of the weaker Cambodian army killing their people,& launching unprovoked attacks accross their border into Vietnam) And in the case of Belarus-they still are under the thumb of a brutal dictator today...& still are a puppet of an evil Russian regime-granted a paper tiger version of what they dealt with under the NAZIs or communists. But even today-the paper tiger Russian millitary is still very good at terrorizing,& murdering unarmed civilians. They just arent near as capable against opposing armies-as the Wehmarcht,& USSR Red Army were. But for a Belarussian citizen in 2023...their WW2 really never ended....to this day. Obviously they arent being attacked like Ukraine-but still live under a brutal regime bound to Russia. For those peoples sake-the best thing for them amazingly enough-would probably be if Wagner/Belarus/Russia are foolish enough to invade Poland. After Poland wiped the floor with them-thats probably the Belarussians best shot to be liberated from their awful govt,& being under Russias thumb.

[@georgegordon6630]

Not sure if you are mistaking the Wehrmacht or the SS

[@WW2TV]

???? Not at all, this was all about the Wehrmacht. The myth of the atrocities only being committted by the SS is probably the main focus of Waitman's work

[@mathewkelly9968]

Dude if you're looking for a celebration of the SS you're on the wrong KZbin channel .

[@sulevisydanmaa9981]

@@WW2TV Excuse, but you must be meaning DAS HEER ??? Kriegsmarine nor Luftwaffe didn t shoot anyone in the neck or the back .... ! ! ! ....

[@WW2TV]

@@sulevisydanmaa9981 No, sorry you are very wrong. Read Birds of Prey by Philip Blood. There were dedicated Luftwaffe killing groups in Poland and beyond. All branches of the Third Reich were culpable on some level. So please take your Nazi apologising elsewhere

[@sulevisydanmaa9981]

@@WW2TV NEVER heard of the dude nor the claim. The name sounds totally ridiculous (aff)ront. Probably sources, 2. Ask someone w AUTHORITY such as Mr. Beevor. Your own hot language also reveals an odd, biased-suspected stance, far from neutral. GET THE PROPER SOURCES SPREAD OUT BEFORE DECLARING UNSUBSTANTIATED GENERALIZATIONS based on outlaw-quasi-researched, never-publicly verified fantasy revelations. REPEAT : get a statement from BEEVOR, GLANTZ or of similar cal people. Btw, what have you published ? Got a degree or just a wild card (blanche) ....? Collided w yr energetic ch bout a month ago. Mostly reasonable work, but cool it rite now ...& never call me a n-a again, couldn t be further from truth. Not gonna discuss this a word more. PS. CONTACT STEVE BIRDSALL, AUSTRALIA like I said on Kenney s ops. Out.

[@donaldkepple4927]

Defiance is a great movie and awesome book

[@donaldkepple4927]

Very awesome movie and outstanding book

[@donaldkepple4927]

I have come and see on Blu ray outstanding movie that puts you right in the middle of what's going but also frightening the ss in the movie is the derlwanger brigade