There are a few times I saw Zee starring at that box like it wronged him
@timothyyoung31937 ай бұрын
The irony of three grown adults who make a living discussing games about wizards, robots, aliens and the like, sitting down to discuss the finer points of a boardgame about dragons and coming to the conclusion that said game is too nerdy because it takes its subject matter too seriously is just too rich. Sorry guys.... I love you, love your show, been a fan since the early days, but.... I mean, are you listening to what you're saying?? Lol😂
@juanpablopagan97637 ай бұрын
Well said!
@c.w.20007 ай бұрын
I see your point, and I do think Zee was too harsh on nerds because to many other people he is also that group. However, my takeaway was the gripe was that there were detailed “facts” about the dragons as if they were real like the birds in Wingspan. As I think Zee said, that is odd for a non-role playing game, and it is a lot of work and cost for something that doesn’t really mean much to the gameplay in this game. So, if there is a nerd hierarchy, or at least distinction, I can see that difference.
@tehbige737 ай бұрын
@@c.w.2000 Its just a different type of nerdiness. Fantasy field guides and bestiaries have been around for a long time as well as additional info about characters in board games. Some people really appreciate fluff and its extremely hypocritical to bash on something like that in what is already a nerdy hobby. It would be one thing if Zee just said it wasn't to his taste, Marvel games are the same for a lot of people currently and can be actively off putting, but he showed actual vitriol toward not only the idea of the field guide but the people who might enjoy it. I normally like to hear Zee's opinion but this wasn't a good look for him.
@lastburning7 ай бұрын
You're not listening to what they're saying. "This is not an RPG. I don't need that!" The facts are not interesting and it's a light card game. In an RPG, bestiary facts are important to gameplay.
@Szurumbur7 ай бұрын
Yeah, I think their point is not that the dragons are nerdy. It's that a booklet with facts about real birds and "facts" about dragons are two very different things. And that the second treats audience like people who dress up in dragon costumes for a board game. Let me illustrate by using Tom-speak: - The House Sparrow can swim when it needs to for survival. While the longevity record for a House Sparrow is over 13 years old, the survival rate for the young of each year is less than 25%. - The Flubaka Dragon eats a ton of Strutulla fruits a day. He often fights with Plaplapla Dragon, because Tullius wyrm uses Katchalla pheromones to make it aggressive. The second one is just gibberish that is absolutely meaningless. It might be cool for a RPG, but the effort writing all those random things should be spent in other areas that are actually relevant to the board game.
@TheBraveExalted6 ай бұрын
The dragon lore book, as a life long nerd, is genuinely one of my favorite additions to this game. It’s something they absolutely didn’t need to do; but speaks volumes that they put in that extra bit of effort to make the dragons feel real and fleshed out, like they’re a part of a living world and not just some fantastical beast from a fairy tale.
@VoidVerification7 ай бұрын
Considering how much of a sourpuss Zee was on the theme of the game and still giving it an 8 speaks volumes for me how good this game seems to be mechanically. I love dragons, I loved Wingspan. Instant buy for me.
@kevinmace7 ай бұрын
He’s just playing a character he created. He doesn’t believe what he says.
@KissellMissileАй бұрын
@@kevinmacethat's cynical
@windbane697 ай бұрын
Does Zee wear a cultist robe when playing Death May Die? Im still baffled at the nerd bashing.
@MsGinahidesout6 ай бұрын
Yeah.i suddenly felt like I was back in school being made fun of 😢
@windbane697 ай бұрын
Very strange to me bashing people who like dragons at the end. Very unwelcoming statement. My wife and I love dragons, but we dont have to dress up to play the game. And whats wrong with being nerdy about dragons, anyway?
@darrenkisgen31487 ай бұрын
I didn’t think Zee was bashing people who like dragons. I love dragons and was not bothered at all by their comments. The point is, the “lore” booklet seemed wasteful and out of place in a game like this. Makes sense. And I too am not wild about the dragon art. At least 20 other games I own with dragons that I would recommend for someone who loves dragons.
@JasperHayward7 ай бұрын
He's just joking around
@windbane697 ай бұрын
@@JasperHayward he definitely does not sound or look like he's joking
@pokefrosch6177 ай бұрын
Are u guys jetlagged? Or did you record this a 4am? The vibe is really unusual in this review.
@12345678abracadabra7 ай бұрын
Sometimes a bad game just sucks the life out of you.
@Julian_t_x7 ай бұрын
Pretty sure they filmed this right after the DT Cruise. Those convention type events are hella exhausting, especially if you're the organizers
@JulietMcArthur7 ай бұрын
@@12345678abracadabra agreed, but they liked this game?
@KyussTheWalkingWorm5 ай бұрын
@@12345678abracadabra Yeah, the game they gave an average rating of 8/10 in spite of all their complaints sure seems to have impacted them 🙄
@lajeit7 ай бұрын
Camilla didn't get the memo about the beige hat
@Ribbit-mx1sd7 ай бұрын
Can't believe they spent the first 7 minutes just bashing the art and the extra lorebook 😂The art in this game is GORGEOUS! Rambling on and on about how the art doesn't work for you and you can't quite figure out why... just say you don't like the style and move on lol. I knew the review was going to be good when the first complaint was about having cardboard resources... like every other game in existence
@nickbekaert70364 ай бұрын
The art is💩
@curtislinden92977 ай бұрын
I enjoyed this review - it was honest and everybody let each other have their opinions on theme and marketing strategy, while objectively reviewing the game mechanics. Kudos to Tom for taking it in stride when he clearly disagreed, as well to Camilla and Zee for not holding back at all
@nerdyjawsh7 ай бұрын
Jamey mentioned that dinospan was almost what they picked. Maybe you guys would of liked that theme better, lol I know I would have. However, I love dragons as well and am super stoked for this! I do believe dinosaurs would have gone over better. They are real so you can still give facts about them, and it would not feel weird. Also, wingspan did so well because so many non-gamers bought it because of the theme. You don't have to be a "nerd" to like birds. That would be the same with dinosaurs, everyone likes dinosaurs not just nerds.
@Naru-Maki7 ай бұрын
Dinospan would have made much more sense and definitely would have catered to more fans. Maybe a possible "kids" version future theme like they did with 'my lil everdel', 'dragomino', 'my first Carcassonne ' etc. Especially for non-heavy gamers who like the idea of this engine building game it's trying to give.
@CresentSoul7 ай бұрын
Oh that sounds so much better! It would’ve have way more variety. Prob would sell more too. That’s a shame 😢
@CresentSoul7 ай бұрын
Also lot of birds are derived from dinosaurs. Would make more sense 🦖
@draco9497 ай бұрын
I love dragons, but not this fey-esque feel to the game
7 ай бұрын
I hope they still make a dino version, maybe a kid friendly version. My kids would go crazy for it
@Why-Ron752 ай бұрын
21:02 - Tom: "I'll play with you.." That was a really cute comment 🥰
@JaredB0017 ай бұрын
I’m in my 40’s and I am 100% in support of embracing more dorkish, childish and nerdy stuff in the world. I do not take offence to being called a dorky nerd or childish.
@dallastexas56537 ай бұрын
Whatever need.
@go_golden7 ай бұрын
what a nerd
@elqord.11187 ай бұрын
Good for you
@bradjohnston88257 ай бұрын
Im 55 and I loved the nostalgia of the dragon book. I get what the reviewers are saying, though, but I disagree with much about aesthetics that they criticized. This is everything I could want and expect from a) a Stonemier game b) a game about dragons.
@KissellMissileАй бұрын
Did you read the dragon guide though?
@letsgojojoshow7 ай бұрын
The aesthetic and the short descriptions have the vibe of the sort of dragon figurines and sculptures that you'll find in collectable shops.
@capnclockwork3987 ай бұрын
Maybe Zee would dress up and give it a 10 if it was Marvelspan 😂 complete with a book of lore about made up facts and events. One nerd's dragon is another nerd's Spiderman.
@juanpablopagan97637 ай бұрын
You are so on point. The Hipocrisy is real 😂
@memoman887 ай бұрын
@@juanpablopagan9763 It isn't hypocrisy to like one theme and not another.
@juanpablopagan97637 ай бұрын
@memoman88 Oh so when Zee is bashing people for the lore and made up facts about dragons isn't it the same with marvel lore in comics and in movies or other made up IP's in the hobby??? It is ALL fictional so the same could be said about it too. So yes, it is indeed hypocritical bashing the theme for that. And believe me I like Zee, matter a fact he's my favorite in the DT but on this I disagree.
@draheim907 ай бұрын
@@juanpablopagan9763I think the distinction is that for Wyrmspan they essentially developed their own lore by designing entirely novel dragons, names, and facts sort of like a Wyrmspan universe, which seems to he what’s irking Zee. Whereas Marvel games coming out today aren’t reinventing superheroes or creating their own universe but rather are utilizing decades-old source material. That said, still strongly prefer this theme to Marvel.
@juanpablopagan97637 ай бұрын
@draheim90 Again, the same argument. It is fictional material. Just because Marvel's material is decades old does not make it not fictional. What your saying is that if Wyrmspan's lore was decades old he wouldn't be bashing it? Come on now... Again, Zee is my favorite, but his argument makes no sense 😅
@jakekoninsky56817 ай бұрын
Maybe if I actually got to play this I'd have a different opinion, but personally I prefer having the food and the dice system in Wingspan. As a solo game I would understand why it's inferior, but when playing with other people I feel like the dice generates some of the most interaction and strategy regarding resources. The luck of the birdfeeder can influence what cards you play or what actions you play and when, and even adds a little bit of a push your luck element at times. This adds more variety between games and makes you have to be more adaptive to different situations, which I find very appealing. I played a game with some friends where everyone needed fish and we were not getting any from the dice, which added a lot of humor and frustration (in a good way) to the game. This made me steer course while others kept trying to get said fish, which ended up helping me since they were stuck fighting for fish.
@Scidad23archery7 ай бұрын
Hey, Zee….we are nerdy and dorky. You too buddy. One of us. One of us.
@Thanos888885 ай бұрын
I have played Wingspan a few times (I don't own it) and when I saw a dragon themed version coming, I had to order it. My copy of Wyrmspan arrived this week and I got it to the table yesterday on a 2 player game. I really like the theme and how it treats dragons like and draconologist would in regards to research, etc. The bird theme of Wingspan is neat, it just doesn't really do it for me. I much prefer the gameplay and mechanics of Wyrmspan over Wingspan and I'm glad I waited to pick this one up instead of Wingspan. I can't wait to get this to a group game night. I give Wyrmspan a 9.0 grade.
@danielwoodruff97917 ай бұрын
Usually love these reviews. This one was awkward and off putting. Weird shade being thrown. One guy basically saying “people who like dragons suck and I don’t want to play with them”. Nerds are your audience!
@FoolishFishBooks7 ай бұрын
Zee's "aaah" of perfectly pulled off straight-faced sarcastic pretend realisation at the beginning (x2) just fully made my day 😂 Thank you sir 👏👏👏
@Tanks.With.Teeth.Malloy7 ай бұрын
So...the comment about the book at around 12 mins in is when I stopped watching. The point of the book is to provide theme and immersion for people who want that. In wignspan there were facts about birds on the cards. Some people complained about it and it was decided for this game to have a book with that info. This meant that more info can be put on the cards, and more info can be done about the dragons in the book. Like...Zees comments about being "nerdy" and being in a basement was super off putting...i was not expecting it and to be honest it kind of hurt...I am a nerd and I am damn proud of it. Zee sounds like the jocks at my highscool who made fun of me playing DnD or MTG. Which really sucks...like...really sucks. I will continue to be "lame" and "dorky" and be proud of it.
@TheDarktater7 ай бұрын
Huh. I still haven't played it but I think this might be the prettiest game I have ever seen.
@ScytheNoire7 ай бұрын
Don't own Wingspan, so getting Wyrmspan. Like they took out the dice and added a bit more crunch.
@draheim907 ай бұрын
Pretty much, it’s like they took Wingspan and gave it a dose of Euro-y resource conversion and track advancement.
@RickKoeppen7 ай бұрын
To sum it up for me, if it was the other way around and Wyrmspan came out first, I wouldn't feel the need to check out Wingspan. "Fantasy" is infinitely more interesting to me than factual birds. Eliminating the bird feeder randomness and actually getting the opportunity to gain MORE actions instead of losing them as the game goes on seals the deal for me. Many more interesting abilities also than simply tuck, lay an egg, cache a food, and those tedious in between player actions. Wyrmspan wins hands down.
@davidbronstein20407 ай бұрын
Wingspan was great for me to get people involved in ornithology and conservation activities in my city. Wyrmspan, alternatively has no real world impact.
@RickKoeppen7 ай бұрын
@@davidbronstein2040 No argument from me, but I don't mind when my games are just games.
@runraggedrhino7 ай бұрын
I don't really think anyone would have dressed up to play this, but now that Zee has said it, I very much hope people do at the next Dice Tower retreat and get him to teach the game! (plus get him to explain the background on what each dragon type eats) 😂
@jessewieman69557 ай бұрын
I agree that the birds and the interesting bird facts was a big selling point for me to live wingspan. I do not care for the fantasy theme I wish it was sea creatures or woodland animals or insects or something. That would have been super cool. The game is missing that accidental Learning
@The_Wampy7 ай бұрын
I didn't even think of that! I would've loved Wingspan with different animals/mechanics. Now dragons feels like such a weak theme.
@NadiaVenClose5 ай бұрын
Maybe that’ll be their next game- random animals.
@soopermateys7 ай бұрын
The graphic design on the boards 100% looks like a prototype and not the final version.
@fafum12727 ай бұрын
I like both themes a lot. Admittedly I thought the bird theme was refreshing (before the explosion of more nature themed games). If they came out at the same time I'm not sure which I'd get. I do like the relevance of the bird facts on the cards. Although I do like and appreciate the work that was done to add some silly background to the dragons. Wingspan came out first and I have several expansions. So I really can't justify getting this one as well. Thanks for the review.
@tessablanchard36497 ай бұрын
I'm all for you guys giving honest opinions, but jeez, this just felt rude. I love dragons, proud big old dork over here but I'm not playing dress up living in a basement. Don't need Zee at my table with this negative energy! Did someone cut him off in traffic this morning or something?? Gosh!
@DaveBouvier7 ай бұрын
Zee, do you dress as a doctor when you play Pandemic? 😊
@TheGiraffehead7 ай бұрын
I think you are missing his point.
@johchadow7 ай бұрын
No, he dresses up like a contingency planner. 🤣
@RulebooksForYou7 ай бұрын
I love that they added details about the dragons... I'd rather play this over anything Marvel any day.
@user-qx9nm9dv6z7 ай бұрын
Counterpoint to the dragon book: my family’s first modern board game was wingspan, and it was wonderful experience to have my children show interest and grow to love the hobby. Since then, when a board game really sticks, I see them wanting to know more about a concept’s creation, and as well, at times, imagine about characters and adventures outside the constraints of win conditions (e.g. root n subterra). I for one, would be excited to be able to show my kids some supplementary info on the dragons they adore. And what’s more, it sounds to be a free insert! Woot! I wonder if those who are uninterested in the book could pass them off to a young person they know, maybe that’d be enough to get them interested in the hobby.
@alexgregory16477 ай бұрын
Bought a copy after watching this review can’t wait!!!!
@a-c-m7 ай бұрын
Dragons are still not as dorky and nerdy as all the Marvel super hero BS
@TheMath3uss7 ай бұрын
So, I shold return the costume? I looooove dragons.
@elqord.11187 ай бұрын
yes please. About time
@marcymarc19817 ай бұрын
Sjoe guys, this review has a Statler and Waldorf-like quality to it.
@chukniloc6 ай бұрын
I do own a dragon kigurumi that hadn't tought of playing with! Thank you Zee!😂
@daniellebackus8197 ай бұрын
I think the dragon art looks awesome, and I’m very excited to read the lore book!
@MrNoirocla7 ай бұрын
yikes
@cindykee37197 ай бұрын
I love birds and thought Wingspan sounded great, but was never in a group that was excited about a game with birds, so I never played it more than once or twice. But with Dragons, I think it will go over much better for people in my group who aren't excited by birds but love dragons.
@HeadintheGame7 ай бұрын
Wow I really didn’t see that seal of excellence coming. The excitement level in the video was a solid 6.5 at best.
@klabjcobevj72nso0fj47 ай бұрын
They don't award games seals based on "excitement level" during the video
@HeadintheGame7 ай бұрын
Yeah it seems the game mechanisms made up quite a bit for the issues with the art and theme that they spent a lot of time talking about.
@TheBrokenMeeple7 ай бұрын
@@HeadintheGame By 0.5 mind which might as well round down to 8.
@borreholic72387 ай бұрын
I personally find it refreshing that the excitement level isn't always exactly on par with the ratings given.
@stephenhanbury7 ай бұрын
@@TheBrokenMeeplewhy?
@WilliamOfUrnge7 ай бұрын
This review feels to me similarly to how I feel as a Wingspan owner seeing Wyrmspan on a shelf at my FLGS. Weirdly uncomfortable by this strangely similar and strangely different game that I already enjoy. I think the underlying question for me is the same as it was for Everdell: Farshore: What was the intent for creating this game? Was this supposed to be Wingspan with patches? Was it Wingspan, except for dragon nerds instead of bird nerds? (I'm a bird nerd, BTW) I'm sure, like, Everdell: Farshore, it's a great game. Heck, I'm sure it improves on some ideas. The underpinnings for Wingspan and Everdell are rock solid. But at the end of the day, as a consumer it feels like a tweaked product that was designed to make money. Marketing the same game with just enough differences and to an ever-so-slightly different market. Like Everdell: Farshore, it's not a great feeling as a consumer. And I think intent is a difficult topic for reviewers to broach.
@WilliamOfUrnge7 ай бұрын
@@ServiceDogPuppyRaiser you have valid points. And I appreciate your respectful criticism. I will say, it still did kinda suck to see Wyrmspan come out. I'm on a limited budget and have sunk SO much money into the Wingspan franchise (and regretted nothing to that point) that this just feels kinda crappy. Like, now did I waste my money on an inferior game with a theme I love? Maybe it's just "too soon" for me? Maybe it's just because now I don't know what to expect from the next expansion? Is there going to be a whole Wingspan Universe like Disney's dreaded MCU? I just don't know what to expect as a consumer and wanted to express my grief there. Outside of that, if my criticism amounts to anything, I'd just rather see more original ideas (ie: Apiary from Stonemaier). End of the day, I just don't want to see companies I love to support turn into Disney Studios, where we get reskin after reskin every year. I hope that does not happen! And it probably won't. But if expressing my concern can help prevent that from happening, I will try. Hopefully nothing came across too pejorative here. It's the comment section and I'm on my phone so it's very hard for me to engage in quality back and forth discussion. Lol
@notsaved7 ай бұрын
the dice pool is basically the only player interaction Wingspan has, if you don't consider hate drafting. The shrinking actions over turns perfectly balance the increasingly powerful engines you can build, forcing you to not just buy birds for points, but also engine-build to have explosive late turns. In a few months people will realize Wingspan is a superior design
@TorIverWilhelmsen7 ай бұрын
Yes, for a one-trick pony dominated by egg-laying in the late game. The thrill of random resources is not enough to compensate for greater variability via the cave cards.
@notsaved7 ай бұрын
@@TorIverWilhelmsen Oceania expansion fixed this years ago
@TPH2502907 ай бұрын
@@TorIverWilhelmsen I'm not a big fan of Wingspan, but I feel like it wouldn't have been one of the most successful games of the last 5 years if it was a "one trick pony".
@The_Wampy7 ай бұрын
I agree with Zee that I think this game is mechanically better than Wingspan but thematically lacking for me personally. I would have loved fish or something, though.
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
Exactly, me too.
@NadiaVenClose5 ай бұрын
Next Stonemeier game will be fish, then next one after that random animals. Then insects.
@user-bb3kw8gx1n3 ай бұрын
My review of this review is I think it’s an amateur review with weak and pedantic focus on nuanced personal preferences related to art and theme. Tom did well and delivered points that make sense including respecting and framing the theme properly.
@JakRoto7 ай бұрын
What a curmudgeonly review. Does adding some richness with non mechanical flavor to the game, which doesn't affect the actual play, really worth that level of irritation?
@johchadow7 ай бұрын
I'm a little surprised how high Camilla scored it based on her comments. I was expecting a 6.5 or 7 from her, but she explained herself well. Good review, nice to hear the pros and cons from everyone.
@cindykee37197 ай бұрын
Camilla was critical of some of the graphics design issues, like putting eggs on cards and covering up a bunch of the card. Isn't that the same issue in Wingspan?
@MrNoirocla7 ай бұрын
she did say she doesn't care for wingspan either
@JayV1107 ай бұрын
Very odd review! Agree with lots here. The energy and vibe was off. Zee came out as a huge elitist here. It’s funny he thought the art book was talking down to “nerds” then he proceeds to do exactly that. Very off putting!
@MsGinahidesout6 ай бұрын
I agree. Especially bcs I was one of those nerds in my basement in the 80s! And 😊 I still dress up for D&D sometimes.
@JayV1106 ай бұрын
@@MsGinahidesoutExactly, and same!! I’m still a huge geek and will also dress up if I want to!
@TinyTactician6 ай бұрын
Just usual zee banter I thought it was funny
@MsGinahidesout4 ай бұрын
Me too!!
@yardene34267 ай бұрын
100% in line with Zee here.
@Legitster7 ай бұрын
The theme is like the game equivalent of reading Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them or like a Star Wars lore book. I understand people being into it, but yeah the game looks so generic to me.
@TheSludgeMan7 ай бұрын
I can see kids loving the game and the dragons sparking their imagination but I agree with Zee it is dorky and childish in an off-putting way. I do think Zee was a bit harsh about it though.
@Attix_Niche7 ай бұрын
Now I hope there's a Wingspan 2.0 with the best mechanics of this game. I don't own any of these yet; so, I'll wait for that one, if it ever happens.
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
Mmmmm, exactly what I would love!
@batac6677 ай бұрын
This game is better than wingspan in litterally every mechanical aspect, but somehow people are salty about this.. and yeah, theme is personal preference so it shouldn't be a deciding point. I like dragons far better, but I wouldnt thrash the game if I somehow loved birds more, doesn't make any logical sense
@TorIverWilhelmsen7 ай бұрын
They sound like some Agricola fans after Caverna came out...
@user-rp6db8qy3l7 ай бұрын
So there are a lot of interesting comments, let’s all give everyone a break. Maybe folks weren’t the best version of themselves for review, but it is still a lot of work to put these videos out there - and I appreciated that the crew played it live. They all also gave it top marks for gameplay. The autopilot comment I don’t quite get, but maybe I am not as smart as Camilla and therefore this is a more thinky game for me than for her. And that is ok. I appreciate the review, and really appreciate Tom clarifying why he gave seal of excellence. Be Well
@gardamun7 ай бұрын
I'm not a Wingspan fan, but I imagine for those that are that this is only a positive. More cards, more variety, more ways of playing a game you already like. Like having another version of GWT, I will buy every single one of those no matter how many they make. Thanks for the review.
@lizziejohnson5084Ай бұрын
I haven't played the game, but I wonder if the dragon booklet is meant to be a bit like the guide book 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' that J.K. Rowling wrote to expand on what is in Harry Potter. So I wonder if what Zee is thinking that it seems a bit hollow as it doesn't have enough substance to stand on its own/draw people into that world.
@PatrickBrophy7 ай бұрын
When I first introduced Wingspan to my friends last year, I had one who was vehemently opposed to the bird theme, while everyone else loved the game. We then joked if they changed the theme to dragons, he’d love it. So when this was announced, we couldn’t believe it. Really looking forward to playing it and seeing how we all feel about it in comparison to “Birdspan.”
@shanefrancis347 ай бұрын
Well, considering the high scores The Dice Tower felt very negative towards this game, almost like they begrudgingly enjoyed it? Lots of negativity towards this game across all social media platforms, not sure why. Also there is a lot of hype, I for one have ordered it on day 1 as Stonemaier games have a decent hit rate with me so looking forward to it..
@Bleuchz7 ай бұрын
All three of them say its better than wingspin. I think it is a more nit-picky review because they actually have an easy comparison game whereas most reviews you're just talking about the pros/cons and not making those comparisons.
@TorIverWilhelmsen7 ай бұрын
They were mostly negative to the art and "world-building" in the form of the info book. I mean, people loved Castles of Burgundy and Notre Dame despite how horrid and bland they look.
@stephens24017 ай бұрын
This remake does bother me in a certain way and its hard to figure out why. Even comparing to Dune Uprising or Everdell Farshore, this felt a bit cheesy. The original theme of birds and bird facts is imo why it was a smashing success. Even if wyrmspan fixes some mechanism, couldn't winspan have done that with any of its 4 expansions by now?
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
Exactly! Why didn't they revised it and introduced this through those expansions of Wingspan. This should have been Wingspan expansion which drastically changes the gamplay.
@toe.knee.sobaskie16787 ай бұрын
I really wanted a reptiles and amphibians version. Would have been a great chance with this game.
@MikeDV347 ай бұрын
This is such a weird review.
@Carutsu7 ай бұрын
half way through it they still rambling about the colors 😆 and now about the dragon lore
@VoidVerification7 ай бұрын
And nerds! 😂
@nshaw12997 ай бұрын
well... the game is a weird proposition... Is it trying to say 'Hey, I want to streamline wingspan'?, 'improve on it mechanically'? 'make it fit a slightly different audience mechanically?' And then, taking wingspan's appeal to many people of also telling you real facts about real birds - and translating that part into fantasy, is... weird. Because it's not real. If the facts were about 'the history of the folklor/myth' behind each example (this dragon appeared in the story of blablabla) it would've made more sense to most, I think. Though not sure it would fit the variety needed for this game... So maybe not dragons but some other real animal? Insects? oceanic life?
@draheim907 ай бұрын
As the above person mentioned, this is also just a weird product. A gamified 1.5 version of Wingspan with a fantasy reskin that sort of pretends the dragons they created are real.
@Wrycon-Inc7 ай бұрын
Yeah, seems they all could have used a vitamin boost prior to reviewing
@Gtomer7 ай бұрын
Jamey Stonemaier likes to make world building part of his games. I understand it's an important part for him. I'm guessing that book of information is to give more of the feels of the world of the game. But it doesn't look like it worked this time.
@HackWeight7 ай бұрын
Jamey said that they eliminated the Dragon Facts from the cards to make the game more accessible. Apparently they did testing with Wingspan cards and when they removed the bird facts, the cards became easier to read. But they felt like they wanted to provide facts for those people who loved that part of Wingspan so much, so they came up with the book idea. I'm not sure it works, especially because it's all made up information. With Wingspan you are learning actual stuff about birds which people find interesting. With this, you are just learning imaginary stuff which I'm not sure really is worth having to get out a separate book to look up.
@Gtomer7 ай бұрын
Imaginary creatures do have lores to them and information about their behaviours and likes etc but it seems that in this booklet it is just "facts" and not much of lore that helps with the world building or making connections with those creatures. Flamecraft has done a better job in building its dragon world and lore and I don't think it has any text with "facts" in it to add to the world building.
@user-rp6db8qy3l7 ай бұрын
I liked the book a lot, every game everyone get a dragon down we mark it in the book as a “sighting”
@dylanshearsbyart7 ай бұрын
Lol @ how much Zee hates the dragons haha
@bricelory95347 ай бұрын
One of the main things that drives away my interest is the gimmicky title - an obvious play on Wingspan that doesn't make sense on its own (nor is it explained anywhere, right?) Like the publisher knows it doesn't make sense unless you already know their hit game Wingspan. I dunno what a better name would be - titles are always very hars - but Wyrmspan rubs me the wrong way. Secondly, and just as much a personal opinion and taste, I wasn't looking for a more complex Wingspan. It seems like some of the extra steps added (exploring caves etc) don't add anything but complication and really dillute the importance of the engine building. That is a major factor as to why Wingspan caught on so much: a quite pure and compelling engine building game. It had just enough systems to make the engine building interesting without distracting from the thing you want to be doing: playing birds. This sequel feels a bit more aimless in the rules - a guild track? That's only there because gamers like tracks, not because it really pushes forward the main idea of the game: playing dragons. I really love Terry Pratchett's Disc World, which has a species of 2 foot tallish "swamp dragons" that rich people breed like cats and dogs. They are quite silly and adorable, so I resonated with the theme of dragons more being wildlife, even if it's a silly take on wildlife- I just don't know that the complications in the game serve the theme well. Of course, I'd have gotten it without question (and maybe then been slightly disappointed) if the theme had been breeding swamp dragons, but a Terry Pratchett fan service probably isn't the best thing fir a Wingspan sequel. ...which is also odd, since one of the factors that brought Wingspan to a lot of people's attention is that it was about real birds, not anything fictional. I wonder if this would do much better if it was about fish or some other real animal. It feels like they landed in ths gimnicky name first and stuck with that instead of working through what the lifeblood of Wingspan was - a beautiful menagerie of real-world birds.
@user-rp6db8qy3l7 ай бұрын
If you check out the designers story they pitched the game as dragons. Also it is more complex than wingspan, watch an actual play or play though it if you get the chance - I found it plays different than I thought it would after understanding the differences/ Also all 3 of the DT folks gave it good marks for gameplay. 8.5 is a solid score.
@danyk4267 ай бұрын
Guys bored games are inherently nerdy…no matter the theme 😂
@dandurkin97357 ай бұрын
* board
@mattr.98257 ай бұрын
I hope they make an app of this because I think I’d rather own a physical copy of Wingspan for the broader appeal and an app of Wyrmspan for the gameplay differences. Also, I have to say that I really don’t like the name Wyrmspan.
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
Me too
@darrenkisgen31487 ай бұрын
Much respect for this review. Especially the brutal honesty from Milla and Zee.
@NadiaVenClose5 ай бұрын
And calling people nerds and hating on dragons. Loved it.
@kirilivanov82267 ай бұрын
How and why would you rate something so high but claim that you dont wanna play it?! I don't get it... This review makes no sense
@gamesnstuff6577 ай бұрын
I'm happy this game exists. I'm probably going to stick to Wingspan though. Never say never, maybe I will play it and be blown away, but I LOVE the bird theme of the wingspan. It gives the game a pleasant and cozy feel that I don't get from other games. Sure there are some things that I wish were tweaked on the edges here and there, but overall wingspan is solidly in my top 10. For those who were put off by the bird theme and wanted more from wingspan this will hopefully be a great option for them to enjoy the spirit of wingspan the game.
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
Exactly. I too LOVE the bird theme and Wingspan is kinda cozy relaxing feeling for me.
@EmeraldWaters-uq1jb7 ай бұрын
Birbs are better but gameplay sounds better here. So I will play both! Excited to play this.
@glaxmattbas7 ай бұрын
I would dress up as a dragon to play it
@MsGinahidesout6 ай бұрын
Me too!
@TheSchaef477 ай бұрын
The description should have been tongue in cheek, like Unsettled or something. Or be like How to Train Your Dragon and end each one with "Extremely Dangerous. Kill On Sight."
@Alluvian5674 ай бұрын
Keep watching reviews of this and have to say I just really like wingspan a lot more for the base rules.
@HardlyDOTA7 ай бұрын
Zee’s anti dragon prejudice is outrageous. Someone needs to dress up as a dragon and invite him to play Wyrmspan at the next convention. Seriously, who doesn’t like dragons.
@TheBrokenMeeple7 ай бұрын
Meh. Birds > Dragons ;-)
@chrisingold45907 ай бұрын
Same - the mechanics are better and the caves are cool and I know family and my game groups will enjoy it. Some are excited about the dragons. But I so wish it wasn’t dragons. Really not a fan of generic fantasy tropes at all. There is also a part of our hobby that believes everything is better with dragons and fantasy tropes and a subset of those that really don’t like birds. A whole bunch of my friends seem to fit into both those categories so I know Wyrmspan will get played and as it’s a really good actual ‘game’ I have no issue with playing it.
@JohnClem567 ай бұрын
@@TheBrokenMeeple Ehh, Aliens > Birds > Dragons > Orcs... Oooh wait, I bet this will stir up some controversy... Elves > Dwarves! 🤣🤣
@benjaminspears84887 ай бұрын
Agreed with others that this review was a little off-putting. It almost deserves an apology video. I mean, next week they’ll rave about something with Marvel, Cthulhu, or Dwarves, and yet if you like dragons, THAT’S too nerdy? I love Zee, but sometimes his shtick gets a bit old where he calls a game trash in jest or he makes fun of “nerds” for loving nerdy stuff. It seems here, that he’s starting to believe his schtick. I should note, that I’ve never played either game as I try to only play games that are under an hour, so I’m not defending it out of love for the games. I think it’s fair to say that the art isn’t for you without actually insulting people who like it.
@mrdarlok7 ай бұрын
stretch goal for the next dice tower crowdfunding: Have Zee’s avatar be a dragon
@elnarradordeorquideas76457 ай бұрын
I think there was too much emphasis in the theme of the game and way less in the game as a whole. Also starting a review with "I dont like the dragons..." kind of set up the entire review to try to justify why it is not a good theme. And then justify why a good score....one of the few reviews where it felt the chemistry of the reviewers whas not there. In other words, i didn't see a theme in the review, jk.
@ConeDefense7 ай бұрын
In fairness, the reason this theme exists is because so many (of the negative) reviews of Wingspan started off with “I don’t like birds”.
@matthewzahnzinger7 ай бұрын
Always respect the candor and honesty that the Dice Tower brings to its review, but wow... for a game that scored an average of an 8/10, this had an almost weirdly negative tone or vibe to the review. First time I've felt that way after watching years of their reviews, but so it goes. Wingspan is a 10 for me, and I also like fantasy themes (though I agree I can't make up my mind about the artwork) so it's inevitable that I'm going to give this one a try. The one thing that would have stopped me would have been if the scores also had tanked; as it is, the aggressive criticism has just left me kinda confused.
@draheim907 ай бұрын
A 7.5 almost seems to be their baseline rating these days, at least for their longer reviews with multiple people. Noticed in their weekly recap none of them gave a game below 7 (Seal of Approval) in a long-form review. Might be survivorship bias as they may be doing fewer long reviews and mostly doing them for more popular or hyped games, but still.
@matthewzahnzinger7 ай бұрын
@@draheim90 I've not heard the specific term survivorship bias before, but (I'm guessing) it's the idea that they're not going to take a ton of time to review games they know they're going to dislike? Which, if so, I know Tom and other content creators not just at the Dice Tower have addressed before, and makes sense just from an hours-in-the-day standpoint.
@thedicetower7 ай бұрын
That's exactly what it is - survivorship bias. Look at my roundup videos I do each week, and you'll see my average is much lower. We give more time to the games we like, and why not?
@draheim907 ай бұрын
@@matthewzahnzinger pretty much. In this context, if they play a game and don't like it and/or don't think it warrants spending time discussing, then they're less likely to give it a dedicated long-form review. So scores for their longer reviews are relatively high whereas games they didn't like are combined in roundup reviews and whatnot as Tom said or even potentially not reviewed at all.
@danieltush77927 ай бұрын
Wow, that was... uncomfortable. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone here be almost spiteful to somebody who might like a game, a piece of art, a story, or whatever. Ick.
@matthewsinger4 ай бұрын
It sounds like there is an opportunity for a Wingspan expansion that changes the mechanics to be similar to Wyrmspan. Maybe we'll see some changes with a South America or Africa set.
@saykhia7 ай бұрын
Next will be C-span. Of the span of one’s promises exceeding their reach?
@leafonthewind7 ай бұрын
Who dumped salt in Zee and Camilla’s coffee? If you don’t care for the artwork or theme, fine. But they seemed to be coming really hard for people who do.
@kumanight7 ай бұрын
I feel similarly to Camilla with Wingspan. It's a fine game. I have it super deluxified but I haven't tabled it since 2022. The mechanics are okay and the theme doesn't do it for me. Wyrmspan has a more interesting theme (not by much granted) and shores up the mechanics to the point where I think I'll enjoy this one a lot!
@Alluvian5674 ай бұрын
I will never understand why they made the cave cards that size. Why not full height so you can carry them properly in your hand of cards? Just print the little stop symbol on the bottom of them all and make them the same height as the dragon cards. I don't get it.
@lenaforsgren7 ай бұрын
Great review! Pretty sure I’ll enjoy this one as much or even more than Wingspan 😀 Can’t imagine this one replacing Wingspan, I’m pretty confident I’ll want to play both. 😎 Love the look of it, by the way.
@jennycox79547 ай бұрын
This review has the weirdest vibe I’ve ever experience from a Dice Tower review. It felt very awkward to watch. I’m personally very excited to try this game. I love dragons and really enjoy Wingspan.
@michaelsweazey86557 ай бұрын
This is an ironic review: There’s the irony of people who review board games for a living talking about the dragons being dorky?!?😀 Then there’s going off on a book about the dragons when every Kickstarter has art books and fluff that has nothing to add to the game and costs $400. This seems like they filmed it first thing in the morning before coffee or the last thing before they go home and are tired. Especially Zee’s going off on the dragon theme and people who might get into them just made him sound like a jerk, and he normally isn’t one.
@ShaggyDevil1637 ай бұрын
I feel that Wingspan has a lot of 'family game' sensibilities and appeal (the theme, rolling dice, secret goals, the oveal stunning look with the dice tower etc.) whereas this is the more gamer version where all that was stripped for a more strategic and 'serious' feel.
@suemoore77797 ай бұрын
Wow. I agree with others. This review felt strange. Not sure I have seen so much indifference or dislike for certain aspects of a game that scored so high. I also believe the dragon book was partially written because they wanted to have less text on the cards to help with readability, but still wanted to provide more details for those who want a more immersive experience with the fantasy world created. No need to like it, but I don't believe the shaming of people who do was needed. Very out of character for Zee. Maybe he was having a bad day, but it wasn't a good look.
@Tarryk5 ай бұрын
Wow, guys. Who hurt your feelings? It's a game about dragons and you hate that it talks about dragons and has paintings of dragons. Perhaps we should have just had Tom review it.
@kumanight7 ай бұрын
The way Zee feels about this cover/theme is exactly how I feel about Post Apocolyptic games. Incredibly boring and I steer clear as soon as I see the beige cover with Mad Max cars
@Sagartkothari7 ай бұрын
They should have gone with extinct birds/ reptiles/ animals/ Dinosaurs theme
@matthew.strout7 ай бұрын
You can fill your tableau in Wingspan
@jameskirk46927 ай бұрын
And, there are more spaces for birds in Wingspan then there are space for dragons in Wyrmspan
@Lavfibra6 ай бұрын
If you completely fill the aviary (which is incredibly difficult but doable with Ravens and the 'let you play a second bird' birds) you are probably losing the game. You will need around 15 of your 26 turns and they will be cheap birds...
@matthew.strout6 ай бұрын
@@LavfibraI've done it where I won a 5 player game with a score of 113, using only 1 play another bird cards and no ravens
@Murkaeus7 ай бұрын
Played Wingspan, thought it was fine, but didn't pick it up. Wyrmspan sounds like a new version with marked improvements and a better theme (imo) which has convinced me to buy it. Also, this is *not* "generic" fantasy. The designs, setting, and world building are distinct and unique. Please see a dictionary if you've forgotten what the word means.
@Murkaeus6 ай бұрын
Got my copy. Played and enjoyed it. Glad to have it in my collection.
@chrisporter34867 ай бұрын
Enjoyed the transparency in the review, on all sides. Good discussions to be had. I can't wait to support SM with the purchase of this game. The fact Jamey is super community-centric, and that SM has provided more opportunities for diversity in game design, and artwork in games (women designers, black artists, etc). It's a no-brainer. Ppl saying this is a cash grab probably have no idea what running a business is like lol. Companies literally are supposed to build off of success. Why wouldn't they make a game that's adjacent to a popular IP they own, create literally a new game, and provide a different audience to opportunity to experience it. And.. idk.. make money so they can continue to create more games and pay their employees? Some opinions I've seen are absolutely mental.
@daniellebackus8197 ай бұрын
Right? I think some people are defining “cash grab” as “product intended to make money,” which is generally true of all products. A true “cash grab” is something that you know people will pay money for, but they don’t need and it doesn’t improve on what came before… and it takes very little effort to produce. Closest thing I can think of is how Pokemon always releases two versions of the game… they are almost the same, but have tiny changes and people will buy both so they make a lot more money. I don’t personally have a problem with Pokemon doing that, especially since you can trade Pokemon with someone else and still catch them all. If you couldn’t do that, it would definitely be a “cash grab”. This game is NOT a cash grab. Are board game designers no longer allowed to iterate on games in a series?? That’s just dumb.
@chrisporter34867 ай бұрын
My feelings exactly @daniellebackus819 . I'm really annoyed with how ppl are looking at this. But it's always good to remember that those loud annoying voices are typically the minority. Especially when you see how many copies SM has already sold. I'm super excited for the team and Jamey's success with this! I'll be purchasing a copy from my local game store so I can bring business to multiple revenue streams. As a small biz owner myself, I'll always keep supporting good ppl who do good stuff.
@noizeemama36977 ай бұрын
I found the art to be meh. It just doesn't work well with dragons. I want color and boldness. I do like the artwork in Wingspan though.
@KZsZs7 ай бұрын
Wow. The energy of this review was all over the place. Was someone pointing a gun at you folks during the review? 😅 Tom was overly defensive and was walking on eggshells (both bird and wyrm eggshells), Camilla looked like she is trying to hide her nervousness by acting cool, and Zee was getting more and more annoyed every second and eventually that annoyance turned into low-key anger. They were cagey about some aspects of the game and overly fussy about others. Love you guys. I hope noone is hurt after this ride 😅
@theincantrix11447 ай бұрын
The game is garbage, but since it's super important to honor the "female" designer of a previous game (Wingspan). There was zero need to move the explorer forward into the cave, instead of backwards out of the cave. Thus, no need for either Stop Signs or Small Cards. The art is garbage, the board is garbage. It has random ideas - Guilds? Coins for actions? Milk and Gold, Crystals and Meat? Pick an idea, buy or feed. There will be a whole lot of these games available on the secondary market soon enough.
@MsGinahidesout6 ай бұрын
Idk... honestly, I couldn't care less about the bird theme in Wingspan. So i was stoked about the dragon theme! And yet, somehow, this one seems less impressive and thematic. 😢
@whiskeygamesnerdstuff7897 ай бұрын
Appreciate the Video, will give this one a try.
@masonbeggs31087 ай бұрын
For me, the art doesn’t hit because it feels in contrast to the graphic design. The visuals don’t feel cohesive - as if multiple “departments” designed parts of the game without collaborating.
@joshuamccartney77127 ай бұрын
Zee walks out back and puts on a Pony costume..... ha....stupid dragons!
@Picosaurus7 ай бұрын
After that review’s downbeat tone, I was surprised to then see pretty good scores and the seal of excellence! I guess sometimes expectations just aren’t met.