Wyrmspan vs Wingspan - Board Game Review - Why Birds Beat Dragons

Wyrmspan vs Wingspan - Board Game Review - Why Birds Beat Dragons
A replacement? A partner? A cash grab? Let's find out whether Wyrmspan justifies its existence and whether dragons are better than birds.........spoiler......birds are better.
You are an amateur dracologist in the world of Wyrmspan, a place where dragons of all shapes, sizes, and colors roam the skies. Excavate a hidden labyrinth you recently unearthed on your land and entice these beautiful creatures to roost in the sanctuary of your caves.
During a game of Wyrmspan, you will build a sanctuary for dragons of all shapes and sizes. Your sanctuary begins with 3 excavated spaces-the leftmost space in your Crimson Cavern, your Golden Grotto, and your Amethyst Abyss. Over the course of the game, you will excavate additional spaces in your sanctuary and entice dragons to live there, chaining together powerful abilities and earning the favor of the Dragon Guild.
Wyrmspan is inspired by the mechanisms of Wingspan, though its unique elements make Wyrmspan a standalone game (not compatible with Wingspan).
Don't forget to thumb up the video and the link on BGG!
boardgamegeek.com/video/48220...
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Who Am I?
One single batchelor from the UK talking about his passion for board games and the people who play them! I support small content creators, board game cafes and go against the status quo when it comes to the board game industry. I give my honest opinions without bias towards any publishers or designers and will not hold back if I don't like a game.
The Broken Meeple is a variety channel that hosts all kinds of board game content from reviews to Top 10 lists to playthroughs to live stream collaborations with special guests (predominantly small channels who deserve more exposure).
I look forward to engaging with you, the community on my live streams or in the comments on my videos!
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Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction and Promo
01:08 - Background and Basic Overview
05:15 - The Good Things
12:51 - The Bad Stuff
22:26 - Summary, Verdict & Player Scaling
27:46 - Please Share and Support The Show
#brokenmeeple #wyrmspan #wingspan #boardgames #boardgame #lukehector #supportsmallcreators #tabletop #tabletopgames #bgg #boardgamer #boardgamereview
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Full credit to BoardGameGeek and its members for any images used that aren't my own or part of the publisher press kit.

[@FritzBraun2]

You didn’t mention my favourite change from Wingspan, that is the removal of the end game egg spamming that Wingspan generally devolves into.

[@jsbach1750]

You tend to exploit whatever engine you have most developed, whether it's a tuckfest in the bottom row, eggs in the middle, or cacheing food on top. The Australian expansion redoes the board so eggs are slightly nerfed and includes end of game effect birds that make sense to play at game end in lieu of your developed lane of choice.

[@Drewkas0]

Yeah. That was a good thing to address, but worth stating that the Oceania Expansion already fixed that.

[@DuGStp]

⁠​⁠@@Drewkas0Yeah it nerfed eggs but added other problematic things. I played a game of Oceania where the entire last two rounds I just drew cards and tucked them every single turn until the game ended and won. It was very stupid.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Oceania fixed the egg problem. Also in Wyrmspan I find myself at the end of the game just finding an excuse to do anything because I've essentially filled up my whole board early. And if I have an egg or card or cache strategy I'll be spamming that anyway.

[@johnmechalas8613]

Even in the straight game without Oceana, if you are managing your resources and keeping an eye on the display, you should almost always end up with an 8 or 9 pt bird in your hand that you have the food to play in round 4. Depending on your forest engine this can net more points than a round of eggs and can potentially help you qualify for an end-round or end-game bonus.

[@david6294]

I think Wyrmspan is enough of a different playing experience to make it worth having both.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Nah they feel too similar. And if I had to choose between two on a shelf, I'm always going to opt for the quicker, smoother title.

[@TheAmazingYeti]

We feel it's the opposite in my house and that this plays smoother and quicker than Wingspan. Also, you place your coin on the entice and excavate squares when you use them. So, you shouldn't necessarily be losing track of how many actions you've taken. Unless you're dumping them back in with the other coins as you take those actions. I do feel that you lose theme with the dragons. As the bird's abilities were based on real traits. However, I do feel some of that is made up for with the explore action. Moving the guy on the path feels more thematic than whatever you want to call it in Wingspan. I absolutely agree with the book. Waste of paper. Not at all what I wanted to spend my money on. Either way, great review. Also love hearing your raw thoughts. For now, I'm keeping both... likely because I have everything for Wingspan and don't quite want to see it go. But I would still give Wyrmspan the edge here. I thought for sure it would be a blatant cash grab like Farshore was. But I have enjoyed the differences in this enough to see it slightly set itself apart.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It was enough to not be a cash grab for sure. Though certainly it was an easy route to a popular title.

[@Oaklestat]

Wingspan is a nice relaxing 7.5 out of 10. Good chill game. Wyrmspan is a better looking, slightly deeper, 8.5 with a more interesting play stucture.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Wingspan is definitely better looking. Most art in Wyrm you have to cover up with eggs and the cave cards don't match the board.

[@Oaklestat]

@@TheBrokenMeeple hmmmmm......fair, my brother....but wrong 😉

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@ServiceDogPuppyRaiser The art is more shrunk down in this version because of all the other info squeezed on the card. But yeah it's not entirely absent in Wing either, doesn't make it a good thing.

[@illogicalferi]

@@TheBrokenMeeple in games like this, do you really watching the art during the game? I only see points and forms and texts in almost every games and check the art before or after, but during the game it doesn't matter. The color of the cave cards doesn't have to match with the map, i don't get it why you hate it that much.

[@davidriemaker]

Thank you for the video (it being perhaps the better solo game sounds intriguing to me). Also, and I mean this in the most loving & respectful way possible: there is no N in AUTOMA.

[@Gdank72]

My 12 year old, Harry Potter loving, son "birds are dumb, dragons are cool" Basically while I get your view that birds>dragons, doesn't mean everyone does. Also the lore book was created because they removed the info text at the bottom of the cards... Where it is in wingspan.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Make the cards bigger and put the ext back if need be. Or just don't have it because dragons aren't real and any flavour text is wasted information. Sell the book as a side thing if need be.

[@Gdank72]

@@TheBrokenMeeple So no fluff because dragons are not real? There are people in this world that like imagination and fluff. Just because something isn't your taste doesn't mean you are right.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

I'll bet I can count the people who read that book in full on two hands.

[@rothanarae]

I've only recently encountered your channel. I want to say that your attitude of giving an honest opinion regardless of the consequences is fantastic. Too many board game review channels shy away from giving thoughtful criticism. Your balance of giving your opinion about the good and the bad is very good. Thank you for helping to combat the amount of hype that gets worked up around new releases. One thing I could wish for is if you had a small segment where you mentioned something about the components and packaging and if any sustainable practices were used. I just got Lands of Galzyr today and saw your logo on the box (or somewhere in the game), so you've clearly got a bit of clout and if you were to mention sustainable practices then it would reflect that people care about it. It was so incredibly sad when you commented that you were sleeving as you went with Earthborne Rangers which as you pointed out rather negated their efforts to create a sustainably produced game. With more pressure I'm sure the industry can come up with more durable yet sustainable cards so that they don't need to be encased in plastic. Anyways, thank you for your work. Great stuff!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Many thanks and appreciated!! Some publishers I get on well with but I don't have the clout with all of them to demand more sustainable practices.

[@rothanarae]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Oh no, I was more thinking that if it were a standard segment part of every video to mention the sustainable practices of the board game you're talking about, that just by existing it would set an expectation that sustainable practices should (ideally, eventually, hopefully) be standard, not premium.

[@The-Duke-of-Zill]

It makes sense to be able to fill up more of your dragon spaces in Wyrmspan. In Wingspan you can freely spam your best engine late game over and over. Which becomes dull and predictable (the infamous egg blitz). In Wyrmspan you can only explore each cave 3 times per round. Add to that it becomes more expensive each time you do. So you can’t spam the same engine for 5 turns in a row. You HAVE to diversify if running your engines is your strategy. So it makes sense the game allows for that.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

By the end of each Wyrmspan game I just find myself trying whatever is available for sake of it as I've already filled up my board essentially and I'm filling up time. Most engine builders have you abuse the engine you've made.

[@user-mf1cu3tn7s]

I actually love wingspan at 4, it’s an interesting race and it feels so satisfying outrun 4 people to win the game. But with that said, I would only want to do it with people who knows the game. I also actually loved the bird feeder mechanics. I can see what the designer was trying to do. I love almost everything in wingspan. And I am happy to know I don’t need to get wyrmspan.

[@bradleyritger6765]

I think dragons are a slightly better theme but I do totally agree the fake fact book is ridiculous 😂

[@ceciliamorningofmylife1137]

Thank you for a great review! I’m a Wingspan fan and love the bird theme. I’m quite excited for Wyrmspan but I’ve seen some of the problems you highlight in other play throughs. Still looking forward to play it myself eventually, and then decide if it earns a place on my shelf.

[@Buddy_Kryyst]

Good thing both exist. But so far everyone that I've played Wyrmspan with preferred it over Wingspan. They think the theme fits better, they really enjoyed the concept of excavating and then exploring their caves. They were all glad that the dice are gone, cuz now you can specifically target what you want. Just better all the way around has been the general opinion with the groups I've played it in. But hey both exist, pick the one you want.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Excavating caves as a theme is no different from birds living in plains, forests and ponds/water. The 3 caves in Wyrmspan are generic and identical in feel, it's not a frost cave or volcano cave or something, even the cave cards don't mesh with the artwork. The dice was no big deal for me, i could work around them easily. And I've house ruled the goal cards and again that's a very minor part. The theme is so much better with an animal that actually exists in life vs a made up entity that you can just create any old fluff for (see compendium book)

[@brotherhorus4316]

Good video, as always. Wingspan for me was at best an okay game, it was fine, I could see why it was so popular. Wyrmspan, seems to have more meat on the bone, it's a little longer, but that's because there's more to do and think about, it's less spammy. Wingspan was a no for our group, where Wyrmspan is a yes. It's just the better game for us. Thanks for your review, as always good job.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Fair enough!

[@mojoshivers]

I would love a squirrel-themed installment in this series. Call it Nutspan.

[@DreamTheater519]

Maybe i missed it in the video, what was the houserule you use for wingspan goals?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Check out my Top Ten House Rules video!

[@petersteele1014]

​@TheBrokenMeeple completely off topic for this video, sorry. What's the carcassonne house rule where you draw a tile at the end of your turn you mentioned in the above video? I like the 3 tile hand rule though. Back on topic, I pre-ordered this but after watching many reviews decided to cancel my order as I love wingspan and not sold on the theme. Wyrmspan is in theory a more streamlined version of wingspan and you could just add a few house rules to wingspan like removing the dice tower and taking the food you want etc! Very good video!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@petersteele1014 basically Carcassonne tells people to draw a tile at the start of their turn, but that's stupid because then you have no time between turns to think. Drawing at the end of your turn gives you something to do in the downtime.

[@ralfn9629]

Through all the OVER-HYPE for Wyrmspam I was soo waiting for this review and your take on this game. I could not see this game coming close to Wingspan for me either. Wingspan is unique - in many ways. But the bird-theme makes it for me. I will only play this new SM game if I am asked, and we don't have the better game Wingspan at hand. I don't care for Dragon"facts" at all. I like the science behind the evolution of birds. And yes, a "fact"-book for wingspan would be nice, but a lot of us Wingspan-fans have books on birds anyway (I have several brilliant ones). And you are correct, birds ARE fascinating creatures! Thanks for the review, and happy wingspanning!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Thank you so much!! And my Dad and a fellow colleague at work are big bird fans also.

[@PauloFerreira-lv3pv]

Thanks for another great video. My gaming group and I LOVE wingspan, it's my gaming groups top game of all time and in my top 10 for sure. So we were very excited to hear a spinoff game with a lot of similar mechanics. However we were worried that having both games might be a bad idea, especially since we own all the expansions and big nesting box of wingspan. Long story short we decided against buying Wyrmspan, even though we have access to stonemaier champion discount and early order access. We felt that in the long run the 2 titles might clash and we would just flat out play one over the other. So why have both? As always I appreciate your honesty, especially with the negative comments. Way more reviewers need to have this approach. Pros vs cons. So far we haven't regretted out decision to not purchase Wyrmspan and add it to our collection. We are eagerly looking forward to the remaining Wingspan expansions, whenever they release. Have a good day Sir. :)

[@Markus.81]

I love dragons so the theme is a plus for me. however, I do agree about the little book. Now I do like it, but I would have preferred it to have been sold separately and with a bit more depth added to it. I certainly would buy it. The art doesn't grab me, maybe if the cards were bigger it might or maybe it's just they don't look like they have come from a good fantasy book. It's not Stonemaier game's worst art, but it's not their best by far. I'm also not impressed with the name, Wingspan is a proper word plus it was a part of the game. They don't have that in Wyrmspan so the name doesn't quite fit. plus having span on there twice "Wyrmspan A Wingspan Game" just seems dumb. It does seem to improve on the few flaws that Wingspan has, so I am definitely going to give it a go. It might just replace Wingspan for me, especially if they come out with some expansions

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

So many reasons you've listed that just prove the game was a desperate "ok we got dragons now instead of birds" project.

[@MarkThould]

2 things I was surprised you didn't mention. Firstly the sleeving of the cave cards (I actually bought a guillotine to cut down the standard usa chimera sleeves... 75 bloomin trims!). Secondly the lack of any real content organisation - 2 small trays that just about store the eggs & baggies. I really don't enjoy storing cards in baggies. Yes Im now used to the Nesting box to store all my Wingspan content. But even the base game had a card container & resource boxes. As for the game differences - it's a mixed bag. I much prefer real birds over generic dragons, I prefer the art of wingspan & definitely prefer the bird info vs the wyrmapedia. I'm undecided about the solo modes. Wingspan with all expansions is very enjoyable solo- the area control of Asia works exceptionally well. However the base game of Wingspan solo is maybe not as good as Wyrmspan. Is there space in my collection for both games? Hell yeah.... But will I still be playing Wyrmspan in 3+ years like I am with Wingspan? I'm not so sure....

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

This isn't a game I'll likely sleeve anyway though yes, you can't sleeve the square cards. As for the insert, baggies suffice for this one.

[@iansutton7416]

Re: the half-hearted content organisation... I'm sure there will be a big box & organiser release planned "we listened to you, and made it, yours for only $69.99"

[@mina352]

Came for the board game review, stayed for the intense dragon vs birds battle in the comments. (I'm team dragon myself - I like seeing birds in real life and reading up on them, less interested in them in a board game.).

[@jacobjslee]

Which one is closer to its predecessor: Farshore to base Everdell or Wyrmspan to Wingspan?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Farshore was pretty much identical.

[@jacobjslee]

@@TheBrokenMeeple I read the designer diary for Farshore. It doesn't seem genuine if they are so identical. What's with these 1.5 versions of games lately?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@jacobjslee Publishers and designers having run out of ideas and just milking cash cows.

[@alister3882]

Was waiting for this one. My GF loves Wingspan, so was plaining to buy it, but I don´t know, I don´t want to endorse this practice, they could make this game more different to Wingspan, more heavy, but damn, looks good? yes, it will be some change to instead playing birds, dragons? yeah, but, I´ll prefer then to have another expansion before this, so don´t know, GF loves it, we have all Wingspan because of her... hard choise.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It's too similar to Wingspan really.

[@joannabroussard942]

The only reason I would want Wyrmspan is because there is never enough dragons.

[@hanslamal5632]

I'm sure in SpiderSpan you'll feel so relieved that the eggs are covering the artwork 😜😜😅 but to be serious, I agree with your opinion! Wingspan is also a gateway to learn about nature, and yes, why not reptiles or amphibians... They also make nice sounds, usable in the future app 😊

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Oh dear God, well done for creating my nightmare fuel 🤣

[@hanslamal5632]

😂

[@Dowgle]

We played a game last night where I did pass and carried three coins forward into the last round. It wasn't out of choice though, I'd managed to get myself into a (very unlikely) situation where I literally couldn't do anything. I couldn't explore as I had already explored each cave once and had no eggs. I couldn't play any cave cards as again, I had no eggs and was down to the last two columns, and I had no dragons to play. As unlikely as it is I feel like there should be a 'standard' action you can do as a back up, such as spend a coin for a guild track move, or spend a coin to lay 2 eggs. It was annoying as I had to spend half of the 3rd round watching my partner take her turns, then she had to wait at the end of the game for me for the three coins I had carried forward.

[@Webchain]

Great review. I agree with everything you said, but I still only own Wrymspan. :)

[@ryankirkpatrick8062]

It reminds me of Raiders of the North Sea vs Raiders of Scythia which are even more similar IMO, anyway in that and I think this, base game Wyrmspan is better than base game Wingspan, but with expansions, Wingspan is better.

[@jamessherman7797]

How does Wyrmspan compare to Earth? Thanks for your thorough review of Wyrmspan, good points made.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

They aren't similar games overall but Earth is way better. Earth gives you a lot more variety of options and it actually plays quicker.

[@ae5240]

You can get points for having Phil Collins on your map?

[@karldoughty7996]

I read this before I watched the video and wondered what on earth you were talking about. Then I heard it . . . Hilarious 😂

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Love accents and speech impediments!

[@Mike_James]

if your board is filled every game before its over, then buy more expensive/higher point dragons. its part of the strategy. you can bog yourself down by the end. or you can grab a dragon or two with high costs and high points/strong abilities and still have a spot or two for cards at the end. i think its a nice balance if covering the art bothers you, or in my case, covering the egg icons, place the eggs on the nameplate. ive saved coins from one turn to the next. if ive won the end of round scoring, no need to spend it until next round. the only reason to keep going is for a specific card that will get wiped away, or maybe to explore in a cave i havent yet for that cheaper entry. its a flexible mechanic that gives choice. choice is good. it definitely forces you into the procedure more as to keep better track of your turn taking, so i can see why it bothers some. the theme is irrelevant to me. you can go on about birds and nature and someone else can go on about dragons. the art is nice, its bright and colorful, gets the gf to the game table, and thats all that matters to me. overall i think Wyrmspan is a solid 8 all day. its a base game vs. a game with a ton of expansions. Wyrmspan for what it offers at the price point it offers it at is at least on par with its predecessor. i do find it interesting how devisive the game is. its probably the most notable thing about the game, and Wingspan for that matter, as a whole. especially for a game is that more likely made more for mass market retail sales than us nerds watching videos and going online to discuss our board games lol. people buy every release of Villainous no matter the theme, and i expect they will with this as well.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Just never had any need to delay my action. If I want to excavate or play a dragon I have it in my hand, why delay it? Literally the cheap exploration is the only reason and we've not been in a situation where that's our only option. This is filling the board despite using non cheap dragons at times. There's many ways to get a free play or free excavation particularly with the Guild powers sometimes. You just use them for the 4th column excavations or 3+ resource costing dragons and it's a massive eco boost. Would have preferred if the art style and graphic style remained as Wingspan though. The scribble watercolour effect just looks odd.

[@Mike_James]

oh ya the free card combos are strong for sure. when i get a string of those i definitely start looking at more expensive dragons, if possible of course with the randomness of cards. i delay it for an extra turn for next round. doesnt cost me to not delay it. especially if the next round scoring has a tag i dont have access to. ill let the card row wipe, and see what my options are then. just flexibility i like. even if to just hate draft it.@@TheBrokenMeeple

[@davidioanhedges]

Every review must have a clip of Daenerys saying dracarys ...

[@DuGStp]

Birds and dragons are whatever. It’s a mechanical game. Im still waiting for my copy to see what I think, but I’ve got my gripes with Wingspan.

[@mariabogas]

I prefer dragons, they are very interesting and full of possibilities, so they are my favourites. I don't think they are generic what ever and in my opinion not enough games with them.

[@suemoore7779]

Don't understand all the negativity about similarities between Wrymspan and Wingspan. How is this different from many other publishers who churn out games all based in similar core mechanics and the same universe. I just feel like some reviewers are playing this up too much for this game. Yes the two games share DNA, but there are enough differences to confirm this is not a reskin. In some ways I find Wrymspan to be more flexible and forgiving than Wingspan; particularly when it comes to how many turns you get each round and being able to select whatever food you want. I enjoy both but I liken the difference to be more like playing original Azul versus Summer Pavillion or Agricola versus Caverna.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It should be called out in other universes too, though you mentioned Agricola and Caverna, those games play fundamentally different though. Wing and Wyrm really do feel like the same game just with rule tweaks. And many are hyped just because it's dragons rather than birds.

[@Greggiexplore]

Even before seeing your review I did not like the theme of Dragons, zero appeal to me. Skip the game mode for me. Your reviews are top class!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Thank you so much!!

[@igelkott255]

Throughout your review I was just just laughing.. Oh my, another version of a popular game? Why? ..... Meanwhile Carcassonne and Ticket to Ride are saying Hold Our Beers...... I have Wingspan and it's a good game but never clicked into the I love it category. I'll happily play it whenever someone wants to but it's not one of my goto games. I played Wyrmspan once and my first impression was that I like it better than Wingspan but not sure if I want to rush out and add it to my collection. I'd like to play it a couple more times and see.... thanks for the review!

[@artpowers]

Totally agree. When Wingspan first came out I created a Dragon card in a cartoon I did and actually printed some as A JOKE.This seems like a joke that went too far.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It's a desperate project to appease all the "i hate birds" crowd.

[@axétério]

I don’t mind Dragons, watching How to Train Your Dragon 2 is still on my To Do List, but a reskinning of Wingspan with some tweaks does nothing to pique my interest personally. Any game on Dragons or another fantasy iteration for that matter. Video games fighting them is a different thing entirely 😜 I wasn’t a big fan of Wingspan either tho with a couple critiques aside I recognized it as a solid game and a welcome addition to the hobby to bring in more players. So much so that when they introduced Europe and Asia I listened with keen ears. I do like reading all the little factoids about the birds even tho I can’t recite anything I read on them now 🤗 I won’t be actively trying to play this Wyrmspan tho I won’t refuse it either if there aren’t any other new games presented to be played that fit my interests. If I do I def won’t bother reading the made up stuff on the dragon lore they did in this reskin to *coughcashcough* grab the fantasy fans back to the table who were (arguably) avoiding this game simply cuz of the bird theme. If the pics and info were on Dragons already used in other media like movies and games that would be a different story tho I recognize only a custom made game like that would be feasible due to copyright hassles. I actually don’t have a problem with reskins and reimaginings as long as people acknowledge these objectively 😇 Great use of clips again btw 👍🏽

[@marcosseven8872]

I love Wingspan. I don’t need or want this one at all, also due to the fact that I have no time to play hundreds of new games just for the sake of it. New game will still come out. And that’s great, so great for those who love dragons 🐉. Cheers

[@henryjoconnell]

11:00 points for having Phil Collins on your mat?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Lol "full columns" :P

[@xfoolsgoldx]

I dont like the name😆 Batspan is on its way😉Thanks for the review👍

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

No problem 👍

[@jalinstockdale9625]

I had this conversation with my wife yesterday on most of the same points that you brought up. Even though I’m a fan of the dragons over birds, wyrmspan is a game I really like but doesn’t replace wingspan. I don’t feel a need to have both. I felt that it was a little over complicating wingspan. I love complicated games but like you said when it’s basically the same game rethemed and overly complicated it detracts from why I play wingspan. I’ll pick a different game that’s more complicated if that’s what I’m looking for at game night.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

My thoughts exactly!

[@Oaklestat]

Sold Wingspan with all expansions last year so plenty of room for Wyrmspan in my collection

[@NePosas]

I have wonderful idea - SpiderSpan :)

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Pure nightmare fuel!!

[@tehpickle1250]

I find Wingspan to be a very thin game, so I can’t stand playing the physical version of it because it runs *far* too long for a game with such a poxy decision space. A 15 minute game on the app is perfectly acceptable though. To that end, I hope Wyrmspan gets a digital edition too.

[@revimfadli4666]

On one side, we have a casual-friendly game that might even surpass monopoly On the other hand, it's too complex and long for the gameplay it offers

[@jameskirk4692]

Really? a 15 minute game, even though it's in the app? How do you manage that? I play in the app and it takes me around 40 minutes. I will assume that by "poxy" you mean "little value or importance". And if so, if you really do only so little thinking about your decisions in your playthroughs of Wingspan that you rush through it all and finish in approximately that sort of short timeframe, it is no wonder you feel it is a "poxy" decision space of little value/importance. But in my experience, closing in on 100 playthroughs in the app, against 3 AI opponents, that is not my conclusion at all. 90% of my games I do win over the computer players, by a significant amount and score close or over 90 points. But I would not be achieving that if I didn't carefully think through my decisions in Wingspan. And for players who want/choose to consider their decisions carefully, there are PLENTY of very meaningful and consequential important decisions any player can be considering, and re-evaluating each turn even. Some that come quickly to my mind and that I wanna highlight are: - what bird exactly to take/draw, what bird to tuck/discard - what food to pick from the birdfeeder(or pick from the supply if you had "built"(played) the bird with that kind of action) - even on which bird(s) to lay eggs on, and/or spend eggs from, in some/lots of particular cases (because some abilities of birds of yours, or even of other players' birds, let you lay egg on some type of nests, so when you lay eggs with regular normal type of egg-laying action you should not do it on the limited egg spaces on birds which are covered with that special extra ability because you will end up wasting extra resource which could potentially even be extremely useful to you if you are not building your egg-engine in that particular playthrough - even if it's just one extra point at the end of the game, but multiplied by multiple times this is taken advantage of or ignored - and the same applies for spending an egg from bird which you know you will for sure or more likely to be refilling sooner or more often than eggs on other birds) - what types of abilities to consider building for next one or next few birds, to build a required engine for the specific types of short term and long term goals for the particular playthrough, and also what abilities have what priorities in that specific playthrough, based on all the end-round scoring goals/bonuses and current state of the game... - even the timing and order of the SAME actions taken over the one round(across multiple turns) doesn't yield the same effect/results and is not generally equally efficient (and isn't worth same amount of points) - in almost every game, when considering multiple options and order of the actions I want/need to take in the same round or two rounds(cause often it also doesn't matter if you "build" one specific bird in first round or last round, as long as oyu build it, for lots of end-game points that it's worth for example), I have managed to play one or two birds (per game) more than I would have been able to if I didn't consider that type of timing/order aspect of my game - choosing the starting, and additional, personal end-game scoring goals, as well as bird cards from start to end of the game, in best way most compatible with the round-end scoring goals and current state of the game (what you have built already and what you already are hoping/going for in this playthrough)....etc., no matter how much one thinks that there isn't any significant and worthy sinergy between different aspects of the scoring goals and cards, there can always be found nice compatible goals and cards to draft and work towards.... - ... And so on, there are even more aspects/decisions available for players to consider, if they so choose. But at the same time, it's not necessary for a player to consider it all nor really try to focus on it, in order for the play experience to be enjoyable, fun, interesting. It's just that the player won't usually win in that case, if other players are not playing casually with same sort of mindset. žBut that generally be argued for any of the game: if you play almost any game, which is not mostly luck based, with more thinking and more effort, than you will generally do better at it and score better in the end. When one plays the game a lot, and is truly interested in making decisions meaningful, this game, Wingspan, is absolutely both very strategic and tactical. Cause one does need to have long term plan(strategy) and goals which one is working on (sort of focusing on) through out the whole playthrough, and also one does need to constantly shift/postpone/change bits of their long term plan in favor of short term goals and maximizing the efficiency of one's actions and total points at the end of the game. I think, and my opinion has been time and time, with each playthrough, confirmed by my experience and results of the playthrough, that Wingspan has smart thinky decisions through out most of player's actions and along being beautiful relaxing easy game it is also clever design and worth putting more effort into thinking while playing rather than just deciding in advance that almost anything player makes in the game doesn't matter. If one is just aiming to speed run the game for the sake of having quick game, what's the point of playing it even, if one is going to complain that it doesn't have interesting meaningful decisions, while speedrunning it and not actually even wanting to play it smartly and wanting to consider how one's decisions during the game have consequences and effects. Your conclusion is ultimately wrong I firmly believe. Because if you seek quick games, than you are looking at the wrong place for your quick game and at the same time stating that the game isn't strategic nor tactical and that players' decisions mean little. While Wingspan can be played quickly and mindlessly, just because it can be and it might be actually fun to be played that way for some/most players, it in no way means that Wingspan isn't strategic and tactical and that thinking hard about each of your actions isn't worth it. Cause it definitely is worth it, a lot. Both in amount of points player accumulates at the end, and in the feeling of great satisfaction of one's accomplishment of successfully mittigating luck of the game and successfully chaining many very meaningful decisions despite it being difficult to easily/quickly spot those right decisions in the right turn. I know that I feel absolutely amazing when I at the end of the game achieve a score close to or exceeding 110 total points, compared to for example 85 to 95 total point or compared to 70 to 85 total points score in various games, because I played extremely smartly, even though I also might have been luckier that playthrough in random draws of bird cards and food dice, or have been helped a lot by other computer players' bird abilities which granted me a lot of bonus foods I couldn't acquire myself on my own - in those cases when I get food based on what other players do during their turns, I lean heavily into relying on those foods and plan my next several actions counting on those future foods that I am likely, but not guaranteed, to be getting from other players, while still having backup plans for playing lower cost foods which won't be that spectacularly worthy to me as the birds I hope to "build" but will still keep me at normal level of efficiency and points score. Wingspan offers great time for those people who like random setups/starts and random gameplay process (through MOSTLY random draws of the cards, and resources), so that they feel like they have interesting and different/varied enough play session of playing the same familiar game in the same familiar way. by way of mitigating the randomness and (bad) luck of the deck draw and dice results, through carefully choosing their actions and timing them, in better ways than just randomly by assuming that nothing they do makes any significant difference.

[@alister3882]

Thanks for the honesty, keep it going, you are right about the book, looks as something to just justify the prices or an idea, with birds would it be better, because those are actual faqs, not made one.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Yeah all the stuff in the dragon book is just made up, or copied from somewhere at least. I'd love a big bird compendium with facts in it.

[@alister3882]

@@TheBrokenMeeple That could be something they can do with the next expansion, just more birds and a book with all the birds to come or many of them?

[@Veheda]

Thanks for the honest review, Luke. I think I will pass on this one. I have Wingspan with all expansions and since I play it mostly with the family, I don´t think Wyrmspan would get any playtime. I also enjoy the streamlined and clear actions you have in Wingspan. Do you think an adaptation of the guild board might turn up in one of the future Wingspan expansions?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

I kind of hope not, because (a) that's really running out of ideas and just copycat and (b) it's got no theme at all so why would you use it in Wingspan?

[@illogicalferi]

I dont understand why poeple dont like the dragon booklet, i love that idea of getting details of the dragons i loved to read through that :D

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It's made up lore with no relatable basis to link it to. You could write that this dragon likes an espresso with decaf soy milk for brunch, it's all made up. It also represents a component that must have cost a decent amount to produce in the box, yet serves no real purpose but we have to pay for it.

[@malicoire3564]

@illogicalferi Agreed, having quick access to a list of dragon abilities, types, costs, and other game related functions is super useful.

[@david6294]

@@TheBrokenMeeple It serves the purpose of entertaining. Nothing wrong with that

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@malicoire3564 How is it useful? It makes no difference if I know that some dragon in the deck has this ability, I'm concerned with the dragons I can see in my hand and on the display and the compendium doesn't explain them any different. A fun read for some people, fair enough, but it honestly has zero "uses".

[@MGee1]

I have to say I agree with you. One of my favourite things as a child was reading a Tolkien bestiary that my grandad had on his shelf. Obviously Luke has is own tastes but I do think he's gone a little ott on this....but hey, that's the joy of having different tastes so I'll not hold it against him 😂

[@Dalmatinac3]

Birds any day.

[@Drewkas0]

Not a fan of the art and graphic design. Wingspan was on point. This feels off.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Everything is scrunched up and the art doesn't really fit here.

[@npckse8508]

I am baffled by folks who prefer bird to dragons, as an actual thing, but otherwise, this one is far more up my alley than Wingspan, which with the exception of Oceania, is just not a game I enjoy very much. I am not sure this game will do enough over time to keep me coming back either, but the theme is far more interesting to me than the boring bird theme of wingspan.

[@talhaiqbal6798]

I actually like the dragon theme, art work, guilds, etc. but I also own everything wingspan so it's iffy on whether I should grab this. If a friend owned it I'd play this 100% but it may be difficult justifying this purchase although I am quite a fan of it as a game.

[@Rik77]

This is not for me. Wingspan is lovely, the artwork goes with the fwrm.of it and its aporoachable and friendly. I dont care about dragons and i dont like the look of them. That said i think this is basically a gamer version, lots of gamers enjoy dragons and the its a little more complex than the original appraling much more to people who find wingsoan a bit too much like a family game played at Christmas with relatives. And Stonemaier are good at giving people what they want.

[@clvrswine]

LukeSpan.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Lots of Lukes on cards!

[@malicoire3564]

Sorry, regarding the action coins, you'd mentioned that you had yet to see anyone care about doing that, I'm curious, how many games of Wyrmspan have you played? I've found, in repeated plays, that conserving coins to pay for dragons that cost a coin is incredibly important.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

You get 6 every round anyway base. You want to play dragons earlier like with round end abilities, not later. Any time people have done it, it's made no difference to their next round that they couldn't have achieved had they simply just done the action to begin with.

[@malicoire3564]

@@TheBrokenMeeple It's an engine builder. Having the flexibility to choose when to go off makes them all the more useful. Yes, I could run this cave suboptimally this round, but why do that when I can choose to save that 7th action, gain that end of round bonus, see new cards in the displays, potentially have a full cave with end of cave tucking / caching, rather than doing it now? I understand that having players with a different number of actions could be troublesome, but it's a feature of literally hundreds of games, and I don't think it hinders this one at all. You should be able to manage your resources properly. Complaining that players are confused by where they've placed the action selection markers seems a bit like those infomercials where someone is struggling and fumbling with an armful of plastic lids. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p36Xq4Clm9h8bdksi=b4EZLAIGp-cKw_MW

[@malicoire3564]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Hmm, I was certain that I had replied to this comment. Not sure where it went, so I'll try again. I have to believe you can imagine situations where reserving an action to use later in an engine building game would have its benefits. You get some end of round rewards that gain you cards, or a free cave placement, or advancement on the guild track. Now you have resources enough to fill a cave, run an Explore, gain additional tucked cards or cached resources that you otherwise would not have had access to if you had spent that action in the prior round. It's the crux of tableau builders, the timing and efficiency of your actions.

[@johnathankokoski]

That intro 😂

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

That took a while to piece together! :P

[@Buako111]

I'm still waiting for Dinospan or Dinosaurspan or TRexspan, although birds are not my cup of tea, I still prefer them to dragons.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

I wouldn't put it past them. And at least then the Facts booklet would be ACTUALLY useful!

[@scottwallbank4794]

Technically, wingspan is already dinosaurspan 😉. But yes, that would be cool.

[@Buako111]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Yes! Exactly!

[@Buako111]

@@scottwallbank4794 I tried that with my kids, but consesus was that Dinos are cooler than birds 😃

[@laartwork]

Ironic that Wingspan exists because Hargrave wanted a theme that wasn't based on fantasy or war.

[@tamada92]

Really? I thought she was a biologist and always had birds in mind :O

[@laartwork]

​@tamada92 sorry typo. She wanted a game that "wasn't" fantasy based.

[@tamada92]

@@laartwork ah thanks for the clarification :D

[@markusbiewer2756]

Thank you for the honest review! Since I have Wingspan with all expansions, I will skip this game. I don't need to own both.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Correct decision!

[@jameskirk4692]

Thanks for the review! Very useful one, being that I too love Wingspan a lot which is 10/10 for me. I 100% agree about your thoughts on the theme. Part of the reason Wingspan is so adorable and attractive to play for me, is that it shows real life birds, not some useless made-up overly popular dragons. There are some many real life creatures they could have gone with.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

And Wyrm doesn't even work with "span" so it's not like it's a title thing.

[@revimfadli4666]

Which real life creatures could they have chosen? Aren't birds the currently overly popular ones? And the "uselessness" is a matter of preference anyway, could even be better than forcing real-life theme onto mismatched yet crucial mechanics

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@revimfadli4666 If they didn't care so much about shoe horning "span" in the title they could choose any animal in existence. Instead of dragons, let's have reptiles. Also you talk about forced mechanics..... Dragon Guilds

[@revimfadli4666]

@@TheBrokenMeeple why reptiles? Why not dinosaurs (be it Dinotopia-style dino fantasy or JP-style scifi) or marine creatures? Are the animals in Evolution too made up as well? What real world theme would fit better than dragon guilds?

[@jameskirk4692]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Exactly what I have been thinking from when I heard the name, and especially when I found out they didn't incorporate it into the game play like they properly did the span of the birds' wings in Wingspan

[@SGFlicksify]

Pastel colours on a white background is never a good look, I’d say. Board looks a mess as well. Cards not too bad, I guess. Just doesn’t appeal - whole thing should wee on itself. 😂

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Ha ha ha!

[@lucasespejo5498]

Only honest reviewer out there

[@iansutton7416]

There are others, but best to avoid anyone regularly doing crowdfunding preview videos, as that's a conflict of interest that typically influences them to never say anything critical.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

I do my best ! :-)

[@lucasespejo5498]

@@iansutton7416 I think even the ones who don't do KS reviews tend to still be overly optimistic to avoid hurting relationships with sponsors/partners Our friend here and SUSD are so far the only ones I see 0% influence from any other type of interest

[@roodkaak771]

very honest review. was hyped too much.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Honesty ftw!

[@chuckm1961]

Yes, apparently the thousands of people who are enjoying the game are deluding themselves.

[@beanis8624]

The dragon book does seem like a waste. I'm never going to look at it. Also, many of the cards cost coins so they are a resource, not an action marker.

[@soerenheriksen]

I’ll pass on Wyrmspan as I’m not interested in the extra features.

[@pippagranger8164]

I prefer the wingspan art, the dragons themselves are ok but the scribbles just make it look like someone has drawn over the game which I find annoying. I agree I would have preferred another animal - Dogs maybe?

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Yeah the art detracts a bit here.

[@CarlosRodriguez-ez3ls]

Couldn't agree more with you Luke about the theme. If you want to use dragons, then just make it a kids game ala "My Little Wyrmspan".

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Yeah, make it in style of Flamecraft.

[@britishshock]

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤❤❤ *Kwasade against the Algorithm !!!* ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@andrethannhauser6302]

I like Wingspan but it barely misses the barrier to enter my shelf. I gave it a 7.75 (best at 3, really like the solo play, never play with 5). Gameplaywise I have engine/tableau builders that I just highly prefer with Terraforming Mars and 51st State both being in my collection, and Ark Nova in my Top 30/40. Wingspan to me is just too random concerning the card draw and I REEEEALLY dislike the fact that you get less and less actions from turn to turn. Man, I want to see my engine running at full speed and not get the impression that every turn I achieve the same outcome just with less available actions. That is an approach you decide in order to keep families attracted, and I dont need that. So, all in all I like ALL changes they did with Wyrmspan. But after watching several reviews the last few days I decided NOT to get it. The reason is not the gameplay BUT the aesthetics. They kept the feel good pastel colour scheme which in my opinion doenst fit at all. With that scheme they should have better decided for the dinosaur theme. They spent time creating a fluff/content booklet which nobody is interested in a non-story-eurogame. They should have spent the time creating a "real" game about dragons. I imagine how amazing the game would look with the boards and cards having a darskish look with colourful dragons (red fire dragon, golden imperial dragon, green poisonous woodland dragon, blue lightning dragon.....all the stuff you know from RPGs). This would also create a great contrast to Wingspan. For that reason, I wont support Stonemaier games for a "cowardly" design/look.

[@warpo007]

smelt like 'cash grab' when i saw it..... add to cart..

[@iansutton7416]

Yes that compendium / bestiary would feel incredibly cheesy to me, really reminding me how tired I get with fantasy tropes. Overall yes it does feel over-egged (sorry!) to me.

[@jsbach1750]

I was instantly hostile to a non-educational reskin of a game that should have been subsidized by the Audobon Society and various Societies of Ornithologists. I wholeheartedly resonate with your disgust for the dragon compendium 🤦

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Just boring dragons for those who want boring themes.

[@revimfadli4666]

​@@TheBrokenMeepleif dragons are boring, then I wonder how ridiculously boring educational dinosaurs or marine life would be :p

[@johnwheeler6839]

Should have done Dinosaurs or sea animals.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

10 down voting trolls and counting! ;-) also yes certain parts are subjective, that's what having an opinion on something is. If that's an alien concept then why do you watch anything on the Internet?

[@malicoire3564]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I qualify as a troll for giving reasoned, respectful arguments as to why I disagree with a few of your points, but if that's the case, I'll be happy to take my lumps. This comment is certainly an interesting decision for someone looking to foster a community, specifically asking for comments, shares, thumbs up and promoting sponsored content.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

You're not a troll at all, I liked your argument, I mean the ones who down vote videos when there's no reason to do that. Down voting a video is for people to flag inappropriate content, not just because opinions differ.

[@iansutton7416]

@@TheBrokenMeeple If you hover over the downvote button the text says "I dislike this" - as far as I am aware, that was all it is. The report (for inappropriate content) is off the ... report option. A separate action.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@iansutton7416 which makes it even more unnecessary to use.

[@iansutton7416]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Oh for sure. I'll report if it's abuse/extremism, but I positively value seeing a variety of opinions, so it would be crazy for me to downvote merely because someone likes / dislikes a game that I see differently.

[@guimauve-rose]

Wingspan is in my 10 top fav game of all time and the graphic design of wyrmspan is such a downgrade...they went from minimalist very elegant to verybusy-icon-fest. I don't dislike the theme of dragon but it feels like it was pasted on just for the hype. I find it sad that people prefere fantastical creatures to real life incredible animals that most people don't even know about, i discover new animals all the time i didn't know existed. I get some people might not like birds but it could have been about insects, reptiles, fish, mamals...etc. Don't get me wrong, i love fantastical creature, as an artist this is one of my favorite subject, but any creatures is created from real living animals, in the real world, they are the endless inspiration for colors, shapes and forms. That said i don't think it will ever replace wingspan for me but i wouldn't mind playing it, i might get it in a trade to try it out, i actually think my SO would like it more.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It was such a hype generation machine to appease bird haters. Wyrmspan is already on my sell pile as Wingspan with expansions will always dominate it.

[@BenBoersma]

Yes, the graphics design is so lacking and didn't show off the watercolour art well at all.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Yes, exactly!

[@britishshock]

First... please?

[@david6294]

1. You are still going on about spending coins. YOU PLACE THE COINS ON THE BOARD TO TRACK ACTIONS JUST LIKE WINGSPAN. You are playing it wrong. The rules clearly state "place the coin/eggs on the action". Page 5 of the rule book under "On Your Turn". 2. Reptiles don't have "span" nor do any other animals apart from bird. 3. Played it with 5 players and not one had any problems associating the coins with actions. That's a you problem. And you said they don't really look like coins anyway so...

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Rep-span! :P Meerkat-span! I mean, why not just go nuts with it.

[@jameskirk4692]

Actual span of the birds' wings was so neatly and thematically included into the basic mechanics of the Wingspan gameplay. It was very meaningful what the wingspan of the particular bird was. As far as I have seen from footage and review of this Wyrmspan sequal, knowhere useful does the span of the dragons' wings get used, and it's not even listed on the cards(because it would be meaningless thematically cause dragons aren't real, nor mechanically) except in the form of small, medium, large categories. Using "Wyrmspan" as a name for the Wingspan sequel, doesn't make much sense nor does it feel smart. It feels so gimmicky and artificially forced. While Wingspan is quite a good name for the original game. Which isn't something I could say for lots of other board games and their names.

[@rneumeye]

🤫 (*birds ARE better than dragons.) 😏🦜🦅🦉🕊️🦩🦚 Especially penguins. They're the coolest.... Literally. 😎🐧🧊

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

👍👍👍