Xenogears Story Analysis (Ep.12) | State of the Arc Podcast

[@ResonantArc]

This episode was split into two parts, so next week we'll still be working up to the top of the Tower of Babel. Save as soon as you get into Shevat.

[@BigPapaGanda]

Darn it! And here I was rushing through the "excellent" platforming hoping not to miss an episodes!

[@synsyko]

I had a feeling this was too dense of an area to fully get through. There was so much that happened between the reaper ship and the tower of babel. Honestly you could of done a full episode on the Ethos Massacre with the amount of exposition done there.

[@QuadraQuack]

This is actually a relief, because I've been trying to catch up and didn't quite make it. Now I've got a fighting chance lol.

[@darius410]

This is literally my favorite time of the week I get so excited everytime I get notification. My favorite game of all time and you guys do it justice

[@EmeraldaKasim]

I am currently playing through this game for the first time and this podcast is my favorite thing rn. Learning so much

[@EmeraldaKasim]

Favorite thing besides the game of course lol

[@rikibdgd4764]

​@@EmeraldaKasimim sorry emeralda name may not be kasim...

[@EmeraldaKasim]

@@rikibdgd4764 ik but it sounds nice

[@gideonraucci8282]

At 56:20, I absolutely understood what you meant. I played Xenogears when I was 10 and I acknowledged that I didn't understand a lot of things BUT, I felt this is my favorite game and intuitively knew it was deep and by that time I already played FFVII. Finally when I learned more about it on my own, I then realized more why I like this game.

[@Hassler247]

I never realized how much additional context happens if Elly is in your party. Not a mandatory character here at this point. Pretty awesome

[@WildMatsu]

It's weird how the game makes Citan your party leader for this section instead of Elly, isn't it?

[@Xenobears]

Yeah, I like to bring Elly and Billy to the Zeboim ruins for the added dialogue and context.

[@DoomyDoom21]

Yeah I brought Elly but thought after the fact how weird it was that she was not required to bring here. There's so much revolving around her and I could've totally missed it had I made the simple decision to not bring her along? Crazy

[@citan554]

The gag with the "blood" in the showers actually being rust was another great one. The one set up by an NPC on Yggdrasil saying "An abandoned ship..this is gonna be out of those 'blood in the showers' things, isn't it?" Another lowkey The Shining reference

[@princedarklyXIII]

This play through session* was insane. I was enjoying everything up to now, but the sequence of the Reaper Ship-Ethos HQ-Excavation Site was ridiculously* good. Had to put the game on pause a couple times cause I had to get a* breather from all that escalating action. The story definitely felt like it* kicked up a notch with all these juicy revelations, shedding more light on what the hell is actually* going on. This game was way beyond its time. The deeply complex story, excellent pacing, and engaging, and sincere characters (NPCs included) is such a treat to behold. I know disc 2 is, apparently, not as thrilling but, with what we have so far, I already consider Xenogears one of the best JRPGs I've ever played (so far at least.)

[@CookedPages]

I would argue that disc 2 is actually quite thrilling in terms of events and revelations, etc. But it's severely undercut by the presentation they were forced into.

[@brydyne3379]

I actually really liked the scene with the two new Elements. "Gin' n' tonic futon makes me sound like a sleepy drunk" was the funniest thing I had heard in a while. To me, it seemed like these two characters were so far above our level that they didn't consider us a serious threat. So it was like coworkers casually chatting while on the job. And it was an interesting contrast between the two Element pairs. Dominia was very aggressive and disobedient to her partner, while these two put on a comedy routine together, showing that they have better teamwork.

[@oboronyon]

The word "aniki" (アニキ) is written in katakana most likely for the audience to know that the Wels is referring to its "boss" or "senior member" and not its real brother of blood. The word "aniki" is used a lot in yakuza culture when someone refers to their higher ranked fellows.

[@tiredastired]

ahh interesting. so the japanese text there really is much clearer than the garbled mess we got in english

[@oboronyon]

@@tiredastired I would say yes, but again, giving the little context Honeywood would have to figure out the action, I guess the confusion is understandable. There wasn't so much documentation on this kinda topic back then. Or at least, it wasn't as accessable as today ^^ I showed some portion of the Japanese script to my best friend who happens to be a professional translator for over 20 years and she told me it was really hard to decipher sometimes. Contexte is key in Japanese, more than in English for sure. There's also the fact that sometime, the author wants/needs to stay vague for the sake of tension and suspense. And that equilibrium between revealing too much or too little is very dependent on the culture of the audience. And that's exactly why it even more difficult to make a satisfying translation :p

[@hurshabb]

Xenogears is a game not without shortcomings or genuine critiques, but it is a great game regardless of them. I love your coverage on this game, keep it up.

[@Xenobears]

I completely agree. Xenogears has flaws, but it’s still one of the greatest JRPGs of all time. They shot for the moon and landed at the peak of Everest when so many of their contemporaries were struggling to climb Mount Trashmore.

[@jeminapearl4565]

I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the fact that the 4 new Elements are all named after angel ranks: Dominia = Dominion , Tolone = Throne , Seraphitia = Seraphim , and Kelvena (this is the hardest, but I believe it's supposed to be) = Cherubim

[@ChrisLeeX]

Great insight :D 👼

[@kalandarkclaw8892]

Yeah I'm surprised that was missed too.

[@Xenobears]

To be honest, it never occurred to me, either.

[@Sacrengard]

oh wow, even I missed that

[@rikibdgd4764]

her name is cherubina

[@DSzaks]

Mike: Anyways... We've been on that for too long. Me: No, please continue. I could watch this all day.

[@WildMatsu]

Same lol

[@betoguillen5718]

This is my favorite podcast right now! Waiting for the next episode every week. Have always had a hard time explaining others why I love Xenogears, and you guys have put my thoughts to words. So thanks!

[@nobingnobs8748]

you guys and carbot animations are the only ones i currently hit the like button before even starting the video

[@lindenstromberg6859]

Zeboim Civilization is one of my favourite locations of any video game, ever. It's brief, but something about it really hits me. It's kind of like the Julia and Laguna scene in Final Fantasy 8.

[@Krisenaa]

Risotto, a glass of wine, and then a podcast about JRPGs. Yeah, no, this is pretty comfy.

[@gatz17]

I really am envious of Casen playing this game for the first time. I really miss that feeling, the excitement, the shocking revelations, the betreyals... the plot twist.. oh man... I wish I could relieve it now that I'm more mature, vs the first time I played this game when I was 12 years old.

[@deleth]

Tolone and Seraphita are common stock characters on anime, Tolone is the tipical serious cyborg and Seraphita the tipical dumb bunny girl (don't know if she's a bunny, but some kind of animal girl). i get and i agree why you don't like them, but is pretty common on anime.

[@WildMatsu]

Seraphita appears to be a demi-human with rabbit ears, yes.

[@dessfred]

You articulated exactly my experience with this game, when i played it at age 19: i didnt undertood most of it, but i felt there was lot to explore there.

[@gumielmgz]

Just finished my playthrough of Tactics Ogre. I'm playing Xenogears again and try to catch up to where you guys are. This series has been a blast. Thank you guys for this.

[@quaasar1247]

Xenogears is full of incline elevators, and for some reason, it makes me happy.

[@tiredastired]

hell yeah

[@xviinaichi3793]

Lol

[@AshenVictor]

They're really convenient to build into an isometrically presented world.

[@vonschweringen8321]

They always take me back to metal gear solid; and I love inclined elevators:)

[@FrederickSelga]

49:32 Dominia (Dominion), Kelvena (Cherubim), Tolone (Throne), Seraphita (Seraphim), were named from angels.

[@HuntSp19]

I think this game deserves another 12 episodes to really unpack it as well as a postmortem between the two of them about their thoughts and feelings about the game. Hell bring back retrograde amnesia podcast

[@adamorth5335]

That sweet dopamine hit when I see a new episode!

[@takendays5802]

I know it probably won’t happen, but damn I would love to see this entire game be remade.

[@wabisabi8772]

I don't even think Square Enix in it's current state would have the competence to do it justice. I think it's best to leave things like this alone.

[@gumielmgz]

@@wabisabi8772 yeah unless they sell the rights to Takahashi, I don't trust them doing this. Though they are going to be selling a new Weltall bring arts. At this point, I would settle for a port.

[@wabisabi8772]

@@tlghunter 100% would appreciate an HD port. The 3D/2D sprite hybrid is so charming aesthetically. It still works today.

[@ruicorreia7742]

@@gumielmgz What new Weltall figure? I have the 1st one they made and the four pack with Vierge, Brigandier, and Heimdall. Are you saying there is another?

[@ruicorreia7742]

@@gumielmgz nevermind. I looked it up and THANKS. Pre-ordered it

[@Filsaveol]

I just played through Shevat, and i gotta say... I really want chu hear whatchu guys got chu say about a certain event... Hahaha

[@Hassler247]

Just over halfway through the game and Krelian is just now getting introduced:) I’ll say no more, but this is why I love this game. Constant developing storyline. 😊

[@megamike15]

yeah i always found that werid. they have so many villains that can fill in the antaginist role but it's not till now that we see the actual one.

[@zackgordon3068]

Keep these coming! Really excited for each week's discussion.

[@julioromero238]

Thanks for the content guys. Love this moment in Xenogears!

[@Bushidoblacc]

Any chance you guys would want to do xenosaga at some point? I’d be interested in hearing your insights/opinions on those games…

[@tiredastired]

yeah. i'm definitely never going to play those games myself, but i'd love to be taken through them with two guides who have gone this deep on xenogears

[@WildMatsu]

They run a poll to decide what game they will cover next. They also deliberately avoid covering two games from the same series in a row; after their first podcast on FF8, their next poll did not have any Final Fantasy games on it at all. So, Xenosaga will be two games from now at the very earliest, and only if it ends up on the poll and people vote for it.

[@CookedPages]

@@tiredastired As difficult as Xenogears is to understand because of translation errors and later on rushed content, Xenosaga I feel is actually more dense, to the point of it being 'silly' in a negative and not at all fun way. Like you can absolutely tell that when given full control over the story, the authors went way overboard on their esoteric references and how they fit into the story. I feel like i was more baffled by Xenosaga Episode 1 than anything Xenogears pulled, though I haven't revisited those in over a decade so I don't know if I'd 'get' them better now or not.

[@nohar9953]

Funnily enough, Tanegashima Takashi was the one who wrote the elements girls. Hence, why Xenosaga didn't really have characters like that as he wasn't involved there (same with Kato and his contributions).

[@agroed]

I hadn't used Citan for a very long time, (since probably the Nortune sewers, or whenever the last time he was required) so since he was forced to be in my party for this play session I was excited to build up deathblows for him, but weirdly, he seemed to just unlock all of his deathblows for free. Over the course of two or three fights he unlocked every deathblow that my most advanced character (Bart at the time) had unlocked, and had the exact same percentage on the last one that I was working on for said character. I'm just wondering, is this intentional or am I misremembering how far along Citan's deathblow progress was? Does Citan have some sort of deathblow osmosis or something?

[@Hassler247]

I agree about the 4th wall humor. Almost never a fan, and barely have seen it pulled off in any show, movie, game, etc

[@zackgordon3068]

1:01:30 There's quite a few animes like this. Trigun is my personal favorite example of this. Tons of silly, wacky, slapstick humor throughout the show, but as it goes on (especially in the second half) it deals with some pretty heavy things like faith, suicide, conviction in your morals, etc.

[@xenogears4398]

New episode right on time for dinner!

[@XenosbioZ]

Yuuup, i remember the Xeno fandom was empty, at least the gamefaqs message boards for Xenosaga ep III, a bit after it was released and so fans were looking for each other, like where did all the fans go? And ppl would joke that they all left to read Nietzsche!

[@silentnight4025]

Love the series and in dept, one of the best jrpg ever

[@jmporkbob]

I love how the apple logo on the back of the laptop looks like it's had its brain scrambled in the closeup shots.

[@JKirkis9]

I think when Mike said that the elements are "little girls acting like little girls" is exactly why I am okay with and enjoy the humor and goofiness. To me, it kind of highlights the reality that these are just children that we're fighting (and playing as). I'd rather see the children that Solaris stole and raised to be their elite military unit acting like a child would. The game is already full of the imposing, deceitful, maniacal, evil for evil's sake villains.

[@ruicorreia7742]

You beat me to posting this. I totally agree with you and I have the same reasoning. Child soldiers are still children.

[@AngelNotFadeAway]

@@ruicorreia7742 haha,wrote a bit of a testament about this myself.Im glad Im not the only one that notice this things

[@tiredastired]

i like that about them as characters, and at moments it's hilarious, but i do feel like having them barge in here talking about squaresoft getting sued by star trek is just way too over the top. we're in one of those moving moments and areas in the whole game and then we get this weird anime convention comic relief out of the blue. i'm not against it in principle but this instance is very much a "not here, not now" moment

[@BrianOfAteionas]

Agreed. Plus they don't need backstory. So tropey they are immediately familiar.

[@TheBeird]

Good stuff gents, as always.

[@TheBeird]

@@jackbatay4692 Mostly when Casen brings up the original Japanese texts, the differences etc. Like the fourth wall break. But I really love the gnostic discussions too. Gnosticism and Jungian psychology are of particular interest to me.

[@ludvicious]

In the final episode, can we get a Mike/Casen off the cuff duet rendition of Star of Tears or Small Two of Pieces? It would be a dream come true. Who's with me?

[@switch1e]

I definitely agree about how the Elements are conflicting. Honestly I think it's too silly for the game's good and really killed a lot of the juicy tension that was being built in the environment. These characters are supposed to be super powerful warriors from an organized military; the way they act really made Solaris as a whole a lot more difficult to take seriously.

[@ravset]

The highlight of the week.

[@tiredastired]

casen's right, the joke in the original japanese is about the name getting cut out by square's legal team. i still don't love it but it's MUCH subtler and easier to ignore, i think it's way better. i get honeywood was put in a weird position having to translate that line, but spelling out the star trek inspiration was going way too far. he should've just localized it by removing the joke altogether, or keeping it as vague as the japanese text

[@tiredastired]

casen's on the money also, it's a very star wars prequel trilogy-style approach to pacing and adding levity to dark moments. and it sucks for the same reason 😆

[@andrewhegstrom2187]

In regards to the elements, with the current group we see high affinity with ether of respective elements. The former group (Sigurd, Rasmus, Hyuuga, and Josiah) we see tactical acumen and weapon specialty. At least with 3 of them. I'm unsure about Sigurd.

[@rjbramirez]

It's here!

[@domokato]

I think the cutesy characters are just more acceptable in Japanese culture where cuteness has more value. I think them being cute and powerful is a fun mix and really emphasizes their natural strength since it doesn't seem like they had to work hard to get to where they are

[@tyronemccarter1907]

Grahf had that conversation with Miang while his gear was cooling off in the ocean correct? After that conversation ends, you see his gear rise up from the sea. He showed his intention to act in that moment. We just...did now know HOW. At least in that moment XDXD

[@tiredastired]

why did it need to cool off?

[@tyronemccarter1907]

@@tiredastired Insane ether output I'm guessing. The gear casually radiates the stuff. The red gear also has that output issue but the thrusters are designed to expel it in the form of green ether wings.

[@MonkellD]

I was upset at 44:20 you didn't call her a wishing troll 😂

[@dearcrowns]

I wonder how long it would take me to catch up to the podcast if I picked up Xenogears now

[@jblpn7591]

Not too long depending on how much you play a week. 3-4 hours a day over a week might do it or a long weekend playthrough but idk what kinda time you have.

[@dearcrowns]

@@jblpn7591 Oh that is encouraging. Granted I probably can't do THAT much time but still, it does make it feel less daunting.

[@WildMatsu]

my playtime is at, like, thirty hours, and that's with some deathblow grinding? you could definitely catch up if you had the free time to invest.

[@dearcrowns]

@@WildMatsu that's encouraging! The only worry I have is of course I don't exactly know where the podcast is now or how far along each episode goes but maybe that's not a hard thing to figure out haha

[@megamike15]

if your like me with to much time on thier hands 3 days tops.

[@naarcissus]

Fishbowl ship? Octopus trap? Shit, I was calling the flying spittoon. Except for the colors it's the…spitting image of a spittoon.

[@Krennn]

this makes me really wish I had Elly in my party. Completely missed out on this content.

[@knightsprite]

Gotta ask where Casen gets his shirts? Might do a Cas-play 😂

[@joshuahelmeke]

Such a vast difference in the way we communicate...is it any surprise this much creative potential has come about between the two cultures? 🥰😎

[@AngelNotFadeAway]

"What we have is a failure to communicate" lol. (Cool Hand Luke)

[@joshuafranklin5636]

Just to show how nerdy I'm am, the fishbowl ship's name is Ezekiel.

[@lloydirving6209]

I didn't mind the goofiness of the Elements here, but I read this perhaps differently than you guys did. They come off as extremely young and childish, but we know them to be very powerful since they are Elements, and it actually made me more anxious for the fight with them. It made me think they would be extremely dangerous because they are immature kids, and maybe don't quite know how powerful/destructive they can be, and maybe even their mood/temper could make them go overboard with their attacks. Kind of like Kid Buu from DBZ--Kid Buu technically had a lower power level than Super Buu with the Z fighters absorbed, but because the nature of him being a silly immature Kid that doesn't know his own strength, he was much more volatile and dangerous.

[@hermitcrabkingofbeasts6598]

Putting a word like "aniki" in katakana is in line with writing dialogue for a particularly rough individual. You'll find that a character like, say, a yakuza gangster not only speaks very roughly/rudely, but that writers will often change certain words to katakana, I *think* to signify just how rough the tone of voice is (I could be wrong on that, I'm not fluent so my judgment on that is suspect). Moreover, the specific words that get this katakana treatment in gangster speech are often the ones that are particularly considered rude--e.g. "temee" (which comes from "temae", a form of address considered rude today that is properly written in kanji) or "aniki" (the less-polite form of "onii-san" as discussed previously in the podcast). Another possibility is that Katakana can also be used as a form of emphasis, not unlike italics can be in English. When it's a word that would normally be written in hiragana/kanji, it can be put in katakana strictly to call attention to the word. Sometimes this emphasis is because it's not quite what the word should be used for, sometimes the emphasis might be because the speaker isn't saying it quite right (e.g. a foreigner's thick accent). Or a host of other reasons for emphasis, but I bring these examples up because they are possible here--in other words, it *could* be because the malformed Wel can't speak normally, or because who it's referring to isn't "really" a "big bro."

[@Norel_Nieves]

Good, I can play new world while watching this

[@Kain5th]

whats the song at the very end?

[@WildMatsu]

Resonant Dreams, an arrangement of Resonant Memories, a song composed by Yasunori Mitsuda for use by this KZbin channel!

[@mytyhekiller4]

I totally agree with you that the Ethos reveal falls almost completely flat

[@nohar9953]

I'm pretty sure that they were saying that the sequence works (Stone monologuing aside and God contradictions aside) because the twist is less that the Ethos are evil and more that they were easy to defeat.

[@mytyhekiller4]

​@@nohar9953 It doesn't work either as it's pretty clear from the outset that nothing on the land can stand up to Solaris's might

[@nohar9953]

@@mytyhekiller4 That's an interesting point that actually has a lot of merit to it, though it wasn't the one that was being made in the podcast.

[@tiredastired]

did they say that? i don't remember that. personally i think it's pretty great, it's just sort of shocking and a lot to take in at once

[@nohar9953]

@@tiredastired I don't remember them ever saying that the twist itself was the main issue with the sequence. Personally, it's a section I look forward to every time. Though I understand why some wouldn't like it.

[@rogue_newtype4364]

Ahh yes my weekly salvation is here!

[@jvsm42]

Amazing podcast! Are you guys considering Xenosaga too?

[@scribbledoncemore663]

That’s a plot I’ve never understood…

[@tiredastired]

they've previously said they think it's inevitable (or something like that), but i think they like to mix it up. i wouldn't expect another xeno game to be in the selection poll for at least a couple series after this one

[@Alan_Chapman]

The Elements are really tropey. The extremely dangerous child-like character trope. The character who always has their eyes closed for some reason. That grated on me as well to some extent. I never cared for these types of characters.

[@ffxiikd1426]

New video new life to start 😎👍

[@ffxiikd1426]

@@jackbatay4692 nothing new :3, but i liked this podcast I like to listen to this podcast while I'm driving

[@zackeryparkerson]

Is Disc 2 super short? How are you guys planning to wrap this up by even episode 20? Loving the weekly content, believe me! Just curious.

[@ResonantArc]

Yes. It wraps up fairly quickly and rushes through lots of material on disk 2. It will probably end up being something like 22-24 episodes total.

[@thefunnyultra7guy237]

Tolone and Seraphita aren't that bad compared to the cringe that Dan and Chu- Chu provide, so I can overlook them. But I wish there was more foreshadowing to Krelian. On the first playthrough he seemed like an unnesessary addition because I was already trying to keep track of Graph, Ramsus, Miang, Shakan, Sigmund, Cain, and the ministry. Adding Krelian to the mix was even more of a headache. Then on subsequent playthroughs it's disappointing to not have those Easter eggs of going back and seeing Krelian being mentioned earlier than I remember.

[@belphe7621]

Well, it is said that "it is a child's desire to act as an adult and shun the childish", so people tend to like develop strong aversions to the "childish", which can include cute and silly things, but this is probably more related to ones tolerances. And, the Anime at the this point was still geared to be engaging to children, which even Eva was guilty of

[@vollkerball1]

12:05 the game is very dark!

[@Gulandro]

Wow, that was a cliffhanger allright. :) Interesting discussion about the tone. Also the result of those franchises (Star Wars, Avatar) where they mix the lighthearted and deep storytelling elements I think speak for themselves. However I prefer a more constant and steady tone, occasionally a very few different elements. For example when you can laugh during a horror movie because something mundane, every thing happens. I have to confess I'm a little lost about where this story is going, where are the characters and who are they, why the elements season2 is mentioned but I guess its not a "talktrough". Still interesting and really exited about the Zobium(?) ruins. Keep up the good work.

[@kalandarkclaw8892]

As a ffxiv player the mention of ether (Aether) makes me laugh because Aether is a common building block in the world of final fantasy xiv

[@CookedPages]

"Some kind from freakin ohio" .. Get out of my head! that was me and my friends lol j/k - but to be honest if they had called it an octopus-trap ship when I was playing it back in 98 I would have taken it on faith that it was that shape because I knew enough about japan at that time from being an anime fan . Being an anime fan in ohio in the 90s was some dedicated work let me tell you.

[@MultiQsan]

11:28 SHOW the GIANT WELS??? I wanna see it!!!

[@zackgordon3068]

15:15 so I don't know if anyone else experienced this, but I didn't actually rescue this guy. He literally just walks in on the party later to give exposition about Shevat and I'm just like, "Wait, who the frick are you??" Lol

[@robertoszek]

Yeah, same here, I only rescued Joe. They do mention it anyways immediately after Ethos HQ when you come back to the Yggdrasil. They tell you that there's a Shevat agent on the infirmary but you cannot visit him. (if you try there's a little scene with the nurse telling you off and she's very glad she was finally able to use that line on someone). The agent does the exposition bit after you fight the Elements and go back to the ship

[@johnnyscifi]

I feel like it worked for me, as a teen. With regards to Gnosticism, Jung, and Nietzsche

[@AngelNotFadeAway]

I found this episode a bit ...rough.Good content though,but you guys seem a bit tired lol.I was exited for the part after the elements fight!....and boom!the end...Looks like this was cut short out of the blue. Based on the content covered,I myself dissagree with you about the "funny" awkward parts in the characters.Xenogears have such great characters BECAUSE theyre not just archetypes.You guys keep judging how this type of character shouldnt have said this or that when in reality,nobody sticks to one pattern of behavior.Even the most serious dude can say some random nonsense for the heck of it.I have even see YOU do it right in this series.Xenogears character are more like real ppl and less than just stereotypes. In regards to this elements;this are no war veterans of Solaris,these are kids.Kids with incredible power that Solaris use as tools because of their power.Its even clear that they have been artificially enhanced for such power so its not like they rose through the ranks of the military cause of a kill count of 10, 000.Theyre just kids and their goofiness is appropiate. And Chu chu is a(SPOILERS!!) creature pre-human history as far as the game tells.And its stated that they pretty much live in peace and harmony before,like always,humans appeared.Cause no matter what the story is or in real life,WE ARE THE EMBODIMENT OF EVIL!There was no need for Chu chu to be anything other than innocent or cheerful cause that is his race nature.For this character to be written just as serious as some of the other would have been actually the out of context way

[@SilverRay85]

Agreed

[@tiredastired]

i didn't notice that. but theyre thirtysomething dudes with full time jobs and, in one case(n), three young children, finding the time to game, plan, film, and edit an episode per week...of course they're going to have some tired days lol

[@tiredastired]

anyway join their patreon and let's get mike back on the channel full time 😎

[@SilverRay85]

@@tiredastired ah, I should have clarified I agreed with the character discussion. Them being tired is reasonable and it doesn't affect my viewing experience too much.

[@mistressminerva3382]

"Ether is basicly magic" ... sure thats how you can say it for people not familiar with that franchise ... but it always sounds weird to hear from the perspective of a long time fan. Ether is basicly everywhere , it is inside and flows through everything , in most cases they use it as a Energy Source of some kind to power their machines and gears. Now there are people with more or less or no aptitude to Ether ... and they can cast Ether based skills / attacks / whatever with it ... reminds a bit of the Force from Star Wars ... tho the thing is , afaik , the user of those Ether skills always needs to have a catalysator like a staff or a weapon that has the capability to channel that energy. So when you say "Ether is basicly Magic" in comparison to other franchises it is like saying : dude you are a super powerfull mage who could destroy the fabric of the universe ... but you cant cast shit if you dont have your staff equiped. I think the best way to describe Ether in one sentence would be : Ether is a form of Energy used to power all kinds of things and even be harnessed by some people to cast something similar to magic if the user has the means and tools to do so.

[@jayclaymore01]

WE ARE... MEN... OF THE SEA !!!

[@Artimes.]

And now Romance is over dramatized in every typical medium for a specific audience that targets teens and young adults especially in live action tv shows and modern movies. Oh how times have changed.

[@scribbledoncemore663]

Casen😏 So close!!!

[@alexandergoldstein4908]

The weirdest part of this section of the game for me was end of the ethos purge and the following fight after tolone and seraphita. The true origin and mission of the ethos is explained three times in a row by citan, veltraine, and stone without much additional info or context given with each subsequent exposition. This made the whole thing feel over played out because they kept saying the same stuff adnosiom

[@GlaineSoll]

I always was entertained by the Elements. The fire and wind ones especially seem to embody the funny man and the straight man trope. The Elements don't often overstay their welcome as well, you get a scene or two, then they're gone for a while. Chu-chu is more of an eye sore most of the game, always waiting to potentially ruin any scene you happen to be in.

[@Miraihi]

Dealing with purposely vague sentences is the biggest struggile in translating a work of literature from Japanese indeed.

[@tiredastired]

particularly since honeywood might not have been able to see what was going on in the game at that point and was just translating off a spreadsheet

[@Miraihi]

​@@tiredastired Right, even today video game translators are rarely provided with sufficient materials that helps with understanding the context... And it actually gets worse when you have to translate it in European language with more informative grammar, like having a grammatical gender. Don't know the gender of the character? You may be as well as stuck, or flip the coin.

[@ninjasoundaz]

@@tiredastired Honeywood was given the actual game to work thru, in the first episode they talk about this some. He had a programming background and was handed the game and basically told to handle it on his own. He was even responsible for the master disc of the final US print of the game.

[@tiredastired]

@@ninjasoundaz sure, but xenogears is a 100-hour behemoth of a game…it’s not like honeywood could just play through it and translate linearly. he was still translating off of a spreadsheet and if he didn’t know the context for a certain line, there’s almost zero chance he could easily go find where it is, even with access to a debug mode. bear in mind he was working on an insane rushed deadline for a project this big, working entirely alone

[@ninjasoundaz]

@@tiredastired I'm sure he did play thru it and probably had access to go look up any part in the dialog he wanted to. He had to code thru it manually is my point, so he definitely was going thru the whole game line by line in-game and then programming the translation.. then going back and testing it..

[@darius410]

What happened at end of episode? it just cut off!

[@WildMatsu]

They split it into two parts in post due to its length.

[@grawlix311]

(Placeholder comment!)

[@heyimSkyee]

❤❤❤

[@yazmade90]

Niiiiiiice

[@Alan_Chapman]

My guess on the “Star Trech” spelling was he didn’t want to use the actual trademark in the script, even though they were acknowledging borrowed terminology and concepts from that franchise.

[@WildMatsu]

I think this is a pretty good guess, yeah.

[@Norel_Nieves]

Spoilers! Kasen? kaisen? Was talking about fei and anima and animus reacting. Fei never aligns with an anima relic, nor does he awaken one or resonates with one. What miang means by awakening is Id. Once Id fully awakens so does Weltall.

[@AbbaKovner-gg9zp]

The Tems. Not Thaymes. Good grief. It's like the river in Britain. Tems.

[@blobeyeordie]

We need a Monty Python and the Holy Grail podcast and retrospective analysis.

[@MillenniumEarl014]

57:00 I agree. But I still don't like Xenoblade 2. The Elements being cutesy anime girls are okay since the story don't revolve around them. We see them from time to time but that's it. Kelvenna and Dominia are pretty mature. Also the leader of the current Elements isn't Dominia or Kelvenna but Seraphita which is pretty funny. Also they are Elements because they are strong. And that's Ramsus' ideals. As long as you are strong or you got the skills you'll rise through the ranks. Attitude doesn't matter, personality doesn't matter but of course you still need to follow orders and you are good. And bad guys don't always need to be the serious ones. Bad guys can be your friends too "if" you aren't enemies. You know what I'm sayin?

[@jaredy5315]

Ver laine

[@ruicorreia7742]

I don't mind the Elements. A few things should be cleared up though. 1. It's pronounced Tuh-lone. The Japanese name is Throne so Casen would know better than I would that trying to say Throne with a Japanese pronunciation it would sound like tuh-LONE. [edit here they would pronounce it tuh-ron so therefore potential mistranslated the R to an L and thus Tolone] Should've just kept it Throne in English. 2. All of the Elements' names are derived from different types of Angels. Tolone [Throne in Japanese version (Throne type angel)], Kelvena [Cherubina in Japanese version (Cherubim type Angel)], Seraphita (Seraphim type), and Dominia (Dominion type) 3. #POTENTIAL SPOILER ALERT: They are all connected to Ramsus in that 3 of them have been saved by him and one (Kelvena) was hand picked by him because of her high ether ability despite her being a 3rd Class Citizen. Because of those reasons, I think it would be safe to say that the four of them are chosen BY Ramsus to be -Element- not because they were the best Jugend candidates but because he could expect their loyalty to him when the last members left him. 4. They are young, therefore, childish. Their humor matches their age and even then Seraphita is the only "dumb" one. Their part in the story isn't that serious so I'm not sure why Mike feels as if they should be. Elite child soldiers are still 'child' soldiers. Amazing job guys! Loving the podcast.

[@WildMatsu]

Tolone's name in the Japanese is トロネ (toh-roh-neh), so no, it's not going to be pronounced tuh-LONE in Japanese. The vowel "uh" is a schwa and it's the product of vowel reduction--the changing of the pronunciation of a vowel in a non-stressed syllable to one that is easier to say. English does vowel reduction, and Japanese does not, and the schwa sound does not exist in Japanese. It's also worth noting that, just like the other three elements are not exactly named after angels, Tolone's name isn't exactly "Throne" in Japanese, either. The Japanese Wikipedia page about Throne angels gives several possible names for them. The first is 座天使 (zatenshi, seat-angel); the next is ソロネ (sorone) and the next is スローンズ (surōnzu.) This is not surprising, as the closest sound Japanese has to the voiceless "th" sound used in the word "throne" is not the "t" sound in ト, but the "s" sound ソ and ス. The decision to use "torone" instead of "sorone" is probably for the same reason it's Seraphita instead of Seraphim, Cherubina instead of Cherubim, and Dominia instead of Dominion--to make it just a little bit different.

[@megamike15]

i'm very fond of the concept of the quirky mini boss squadren in jrpgs.

[@tiredastired]

@@WildMatsu you are correct, トロネ (to-ro-ne) is the japanese name, so mike and casen are reading it correctly. if any japanese source has ever referred to her as Throne that's a misromanization, since that would have to be rendered as スロン or スローン (surōn). OP read a sloppy fanwiki and thinks he knows things lol

[@ruicorreia7742]

@@tiredastired I didn’t use a sloppy wiki. I just figured that out on my own while trying to learn as much as I could about Xenogears. The only one that never made sense was Kelvena but the other 3 were obviously referring to angels. I know which wiki you are referring to. It’s how I finally validated kelvena being Cherubina since I never knew her japanese name. It’s just like when mike mentions takahashi wanting younger kids to possibly learn more about these things when playing Xenogears. That was me at 13/14 years old and having to go to the library to research things before Wikipedia was anything like it is today. Edit: I don’t know how old you are but around 98-05, there used to be so many web hosting sites where a lot of people made their own really shitty webpages. They only gave you like 50 megabytes and I made a Xenogears website with notes on everything I found out about the game. I wish I could find it again.

[@ruicorreia7742]

@@WildMatsu interesting. I guess I just figured it backwards like they knew the English version of the words then went back and made it Japanese with slight alterations. I should’ve looked at the Japanese version for the angel names and then worked from there. Thanks. I have always said that the English language needs better usage of accent marks. A simple accent on the last “e” would easily clarify if the last syllable makes a sound.

[@kevintown311]

When did this channel become this insanely long winded Alex Jones lookin talk show? I thought you guys did sappy reviews of JRPGs. What is happening

[@zackgordon3068]

I love these podcasts but this is still a really funny comment

[@megamike15]

like 2 years ago.

[@WildMatsu]

The podcasts became their most popular content, and their Patreon supporters paid them money to keep making them, so they pivoted into making it their primary content.

[@tiredastired]

if you see a talk show format and immediately think alex jones, seek help

[@blumiu2426]

I think it's better said Xenogears is a seinen, shonen would mean it's for kids, but the serious contacts put it in the young adult and older range.

[@kevindepuy5390]

Shonen is right. Seinen means 18+, this definitely isnt that.

[@blumiu2426]

@@kevindepuy5390 Uh, Xenogears has blood and nudity and given the theme, it would very much make it a seinen. Shonen have a child or young teen protagonist, formula of becoming stronger each fight and sometimes archetype cast of allies that have their own arcs. In no way is Xenogears a Naruto, but it does fit Gundam or Evangelion better. Seinen. The lines sometimes blur depending what is allowed to publish, like Fist of the North Star (based on content, but Kenshiro was supposed to be at least 17) was Shonen Jump, but that was a time when shonen were a bit more mature and experimented.

[@tiredastired]

@@blumiu2426 i think you're looking at this through a modern lens. the game was rated T for teen, and i played it on release as a 10-year-old; it was spooky at times but basically fine, and a lot of the anime humor felt juvenile even to me at the time. this is even truer in japan in the '90s - they've really dialed it back over the years, but back then dragon ball was literally shonen jump and you'd have the protagonist getting impaled through the heart, blood everywhere, loads of sex gags and profanity, etc. and to your point, even evangelion was shonen ace

[@macrotips6801]

@@tiredastired Ratings doesn't matter.

[@blumiu2426]

@@tiredastired I'm not sure what the modern lens is considering the age rating I though has become more lax and I don't watch shonen anime. I'm not sure if you're saying that Xenogears having adult themes meant it could qualify? Yes, but that was one part of it that isn't true anymore for shonen, the other aspect was the formula (which Dragon Ball popularized and became the staple of shonen, which is why prior or at the same time you didn't see it until adopted after) all possess now except for recent entries the President purposefully added so battle shonen weren't everything they had. Dragon Ball was a product of the same period as Fist of the North Star, and Dragon Ball Z released in 1989 when ultra violent anime were just disappearing yet still around. I believe it was released through that publication as it would reach more youth, as it was meant to promote the show and had irregular releases. You can always have a bit of crossover in content as I said, but shonen are built upon the "powering up" against new tiers of antagonists so that the hero can grow and consists of many arcs. Seinen aren't near as long and have a concise story written at one time, not added to as shonen naturally have to be. Xenogears could never be pieced together and we know it was written at one time, deals with mostly of age or close to characters and lacks the shonen formula.