This part of BG3 makes no sense

I swear to god I'll stop talking about this game at some point
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Merch, Discord, the Quest-O-Nomicon, and everything else: linktr.ee/XPto...

[@XPtoLevel3]

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[@MinnowTF]

Me when when the the when:

[@adamsavard535]

For one, happy to help you out by using the code. For two, I'm excited to at least give this a try. I don't really wanna cook all the time, so this might be a good alternative to eating out.

[@robertfaucher3750]

Sir why does your microwave look like its from 2042?

[@digimbyte]

You fail to realize that its unlikely a direct request about zariel. rather a lower person trying to meet a quota of persons. cortash was just selling to a middle man.

[@Mravatarmech]

if you said asterion that would be a spartan space marine guy called asterion moloc

[@thelonewanderer1964]

The biggest plot hole is that Ice Devils are actually immune to fire, making them very unafraid of infernos.

[@illuminatedstonepersonisp6869]

I mean they might still have an irrational fear of fire?

[@Moleje1337]

A large number of Demons and Devils are immune to poison and Fire. In the Hells they also have Hellfire. I agree about the idea that using Bel as the mastermind behind Karlach's pain makes more sense.

[@thelonewanderer1964]

@@illuminatedstonepersonisp6869 Not canonically, no. There are only two things anyone can say on that front: To be promoted to a pit fiend, an Ice Devil has to undergo 1,001 days in hellfire. This is excruciating for anyone, but Ice Devils actively seek out promotion; they want this. Finally, Ice Devils are said to feel uneasy on Planes like Phlegethos. That’s not to say they are incapacitated, debilitated, or in any way lessened by the Planes, just that they feel out of their element, literally. Like a city kid in a country town. It’s just odd because there *is* a preexisting rule that Baatezu (Ice Devils included) are weak to electricity.

[@anarkizt]

Karlach just said they hate an inferno not that they’re afraid of one.

[@fudgefudge8913]

sure, but the question asked was best way to fight them, yea?? So answering they hate an inferno means ... ???? @@anarkizt

[@amduil8168]

I feel like Zariel taking an entire city full of innocents just because a few of them betrayed her shows that her grasp on her old morallity is pretty much eroded away or gone entirely.

[@conallbrown2358]

See even a the shockingly obese has a grasp on how far she has fallen!

[@kieran10202]

If it's legal and suits your goals devils do it. Zariel included.

[@kolosmenus]

Yeah, that was more or less my reaction throughout this whole video. "Zariel wouldn't conscript random mortals into the war, because she wants to protect them from the war!" Well, what about that time she conscripted a whole city full of random mortals to fight in said war?

[@davidwarner7797]

Lol I was going to write my own comment, but you hit the nail on the head. I'm not saying she can't feel some level of guilt about it either, but the road to ruin is paved with good intentions. If she's willing to make a deal with Thavius, I can't imagine Gortash is much of a stretch.

[@valkyrie-randgris]

Zariel WAS an Angel then BECAME a Devil. I'm really not surprised that "actually, this whole town has to pay in dramatic and violent ways for the sins of it's ancestors" is a leap she'd make either as a Devil OR as an Angel. At no point does humanity or common sense factor in to all that (except for her initial spark of something more then the other celestials that made her get involved in the blood war in the first place). Just a warped Angelic or Demonic sense of "justice".

[@lionbryce10101]

My biggest complaint with Karlach is that we can't just go live with Hope together

[@ccibinel]

Ya it kinda feels like they missed an explanation of that. It really seems like if you need to be in the hells its a great option.

[@acenomadic]

There is an explanation I feel like though? I distinctly remember proposing the idea to Karlech and her giving a reason to reject it. The dialogue is there

[@menoguchi]

​@@acenomadicAbout Hope, specifically? She seems pretty adamant about not returning to hell after 10 years of forced servitude in a war she has no stake in, saying she'd rather die than have to fight for her life in that way again, but if she lived with Hope, at least temporarily until a cure was found, then that would render that point moot. She expresses dissatisfaction with regard to not being able to see the sun or visiting her friends and family, but she'd probably be able to pop out for a bit? like she does in the epilogue? She'd have much more freedom, in fact. I don't remember any dialogue countering this argument, but maybe I just missed it or forgot

[@acenomadic]

@@menoguchi there was a line about Hope specifically, yeah

[@acenomadic]

I just loaded up my old save to check, right after you leave the House of Hope you can ask her if she was at all tempted to stay and she emphatically rejects the notion

[@Masonxx12]

A few thoughts occurred to me while watching this video: 1) It seemed emphasized in my playthroughs that Gortash sold Karlach's *heart*, not just Karlach. This makes it seem like Karlach was sold to Zariel as more of a novel test subject for experiments with infernal machinery, rather than a conscript. Karlach talks about how she had a mechanic in Avernus who tweaked and modified her engine. We also gain more insight on what the engine is from Karlach's talks with Dammon. This emphasis on Karlach's infernal engine heart rather than her battle prowess makes me think Zariel was more interested in seeing if she could make some kind of infernal super soldiers rather than just mass conscription. This would also explain a bit better why Zariel wants Karlach back. 2) As for how Gortash pulled off the deal and what he got out of it, it seems likely to me that he could've made contact with Zariel through the diabolist Helsik. The Raphael connection could have had something to do with it as well. Gortash is also the Chosen of Bane, so it makes sense that he's a pretty powerful negotiator. I think he sold Karlach and in return procured the infernal iron he needed to build the Steel Watch. It's possible Gortash benefitted from the deal much more than Zariel did, and he simply got away with it by having a silver tongue. I mean, you could outsmart the likes of Mizora and Raphael, so the idea of Bane's Chosen swindling Zariel out of some infernal iron doesn't seemed too far-fetched to me. 3) I think Larian might have taken some creative liberties with their interpretation of Zariel's character, but Karlach also explains that she just really hates Avernus as a whole, more than only Zariel. Karlach talks frequently about how she felt really lonely there. Zariel treated her as little more than an attack dog. You can learn about Karlach's relations with Mizora, Flo, and some of the other cambions, and all things considered Karlach just felt like she didn't have anyone she could trust. Between that loneliness and the violent chaos of the Blood War, it sounds like Karlach's hatred for Zariel is compounded with her hatred for the entire layer of Avernus. So from Karlach's perspective it's like a combination of "Zariel is a villain" and "Avernus is a sh*thole". Bad associations all around. 4) The writing for it does seem kind of unfinished, but the theme of Gortash selling Karlach to Zariel as a mirror of his own parents selling him to Raphael would make a lot of sense in BG3. "Cycles of abuse" seems like a recurring theme in the game. Consider the messed up family dynamics of the Bhaalspawn and how it plays into the Durge storyline. And in Cazador's dungeon, you can find the skull of Vellioth, Cazador's master who was just as abusive to him as he is to Astarion. To some extent I would also argue that Viconia's treatment of Shadowheart went a little beyond standard Sharran dogma, but that might just be speculation. I'm basically trying to say that I think the Gortash-Zariel deal was written to help Karlach's story line up more thematically with some of the other characters.

[@Knight1029]

Point 1 would only make sense if there was clarification for it. Because a equally valid interpretation would be that heart is being used as flowery language. Point 2 doesn't make much sense. Zariel is a Arch Devil. Saying Gortash can persuade her implies so much and opens a lot of holes. If he can persuaded a Arch Devil why does he have any difficulty in the story at all? Why can't he just talk to Ravengaurd to give him control of the city? Why does he need a tadpole in him? Why did he join the Dark Urge then? Saying he can just convince Zariel isn't a weightless statement. Point 3 could make sense only if we got other perceptives on Zariel. To show that Karlack is not a reliable source on Zariels true character. Point 4 is probably the closet to being true. Karlack was a late addition to the game and so the writing probably isn't the smoothest.

[@Masonxx12]

@@Knight1029 Point 1 does get some clarification though. There's dialogue with Karlach (can't remember when or how to trigger it) where she says that Gortash and Zariel chose her because they believed her body could "handle" the infernal engine heart, although what that means does feel a little vague. However, when Dammon first meets Karlach, he also remarks that whoever constructed the engine heart took some serious risks, making the engine more volatile and combustible, which led me to believe that Karlach's engine is meant to be some kind of experimental build. I think what you said about Point 2 is fair, but I do feel like making a deal with Zariel to have her part with some infernal iron and taking over Baldur's Gate are two very different undertakings. To be clear, I'm no expert on Forgotten Realms lore since BG3 is my first experience with it, so I don't know much about Archdevils. But I was still surprised at how easy it was to pull the rug out from under the likes of Mizora and Raphael (the latter of whom literally planned to conquer the Hells). Considering you can get the best of them, Gortash benefitting from a business deal with Zariel a little more than Zariel did just doesn't seemed as far-fetched to me as this video implies. As for infecting Ravenguard, perhaps Gortash did it simply to guarantee his control of the city, rather than the risk of talking his way into it. Tyranny does tend to be more effective when you can literally mind control people. Wyll mentions something to this effect, that if the leader of the Flaming Fist is infected, then the gates of the city are pretty much thrown open for the cult of the Absolute to march through. I'm just speculating here though, Gortash's powers as the Chosen of Bane do seem more ambiguous to me than Orin's or Ketheric's. As for point 3, I mean, you are right. Unfortunately though, Karlach's perspective on Zariel is pretty much the only one we get in BG3.

[@Knight1029]

@@Masonxx12 I agree with some of the things you just said regarding point 1 but it misses what I said which was that Karlach's heart wasn't sold. With the rest of what you said it still doesn't make sense without context. If Zariel needed people who can handle her infernal engine she wouldn't have gone with Gortash. Gortash is this random dude who came out of nowhere. Her accept it doesn't make sense with how she normal deals with mortals. If someone willing joins her then she'll accept them. But Zariel isn't dumb enough to believe Karlach joined willingly. This misses the point that I am trying to say and that is Gortash couldn't have convinced Zariel to do anything. If he could then the rest of the story wouldn't make any sense. And you can't argue that Zariel sees the benefits of at least humoring him. Because Gortash needs him and not the other way around. Gortash offering Karlach doesn't mean anything to Zariel as she has plenty of her own people. Yeah, and that seems like an issue that BG3 has. We can't really explore other sides.

[@ANDELE3025]

For point 3, Zariel still being corrupt is actually the stated "main"/canonical ending of the DiA arc.

[@ryanstewart2289]

​@@Masonxx12 Just to clarify, both Raphael and Mizora are cambions. In their cases half devil and half mortal. I don't think that Larian clarified Mizora's devilish lineage, but I remember reading somewhere that Raphael is the son and heir of Mephistopheles the Arch Devil in charge of Cania. That's why a party of mid to high level adventures can smack the bitch out of them, they're not full devils.

[@kylevanderwolf4446]

On Karlach being sold: It’s very much shown by both mizora and Raphael that while they don’t outright lie about their deals, they have no problem being tricky or having other people trick her. My idea is that gortash tricked karlach into saying yes to something that was actually a secondary contract and then got her conscripted, but she trusted him so much she just let it happen.

[@augustsart5374]

Yes, karlach pretty much states that she didn't even realize what was happening to her until it was too late.

[@ChiefderWahrheit]

Does that mean Karlach is/was a subcontractor?

[@KasumiRINA]

Devils outright lie though, it's their shtick, Raphael lies to Yurgir pretty openly, not only deliberately sabotaging his mission by protecting that last Justiciar but later making up a rule that when we kill him it doesn't count because subcontractors (a thing clearly NOT in the song). ...and so does Mizora when you strike a deal to release him when you save her, and she tries to wiggle it to 6 months, and then trying to hide Duke's location to trick Wyll into signing another one immediately. Oh and yes, lies by omission and manipulating information are also forms of lying but these devils lie to you straight up, for starters by making you think the deal is two sided, while in reality they go out of their way to make the signee fail because they didn't need what's in the deal they were always doing it for the soul.

[@theveganduolingobird7349]

@@KasumiRINAhonestly I just assumed the sub contracting rule was always there but Raphael didn’t let him see the contract and then stalled so long he wouldn’t reasonably be able to remember it

[@shadowytwilight]

@@KasumiRINA I wouldn't say they lie. Raph doesn't lie to Yurgir. the contract is for him to kill all the Dark Justicars, and as long as he doesn't, he's Raph's prisoner. the contract doesn't state that he can have outside help. the fact the last Justiciar contacts Raph as a hail mary, is a fortunate turn of events for Raph and that's it. the entire series is literally the guy that makes Moonrise contacts Raph to get help stopping the General. Raph makes a deal with Yurgir to get him to do the dirty work. the last Justiciar contacts Raph to get help, Raph turns him into thousands of Rats. at no point in any contract is raph required to let Yurgir know anything. the contract is Yurgir does the job or becomes Raph's minion. You completing the contract is a semantics argument, but Devils are ALL about semantics and legal loopholes. the justicar is dead, Yurgir didn't kill him, thus, Yurgir didn't fufill the contract of killing all of the Justiciars. it's not an extra rule he just made up. 'the devil is in the details' after all. Mizora doesn't try to wiggle out of releasing Wyll. the contract explicitly states she has a six month window after agreeing to a release. and the entire point of that clause is to do exactly what she did. Oh, you found a perfectly logical way to get out of your bargain, well I got 6 months to find a different bargain to offer. she didn't lie about the events that got wyll contracted. at best, she just didn't give him the probably hours to read over it to find all the fine print or subsections that screwed him over. it's the same thing that got him to hunt karlach without technically breaking the contract, because karlach 'has no heart' cause it was replaced with the infernal engine. Wyll's contract was for hunting devils/heartless/fiends.

[@moonlight2870]

If I understand it correctly, Gortash didn't just sell Karlach to Zariel, he sold A LOT of people. He put on an ad looking for sellswords, but it was a trick and sold every single person who showed up to Zariel. Now, if Gortash just showed up with a single tiefling, Zariel would probably tell him to f off, but a bunch of soldiers? I can see that.

[@bobmcbob49]

okay but how in the hell does Karlach even personally know Zariel anyway I mean besides Zariel being as much a Karlach fan as everyone else "She just like me fr" ~Zariel

[@notthefbi7015]

@@bobmcbob49It's pretty heavily implied that a lot of your party members were much more capable than they were after they got the tadpole. Not to mention Devils love to break good souls down.

[@Former_Halo_Fan]

@@bobmcbob49 She was a test prototype for a project Zariel was clearly interested in, and she was also one of Zariel's greatest fighters/champions/henchmen.

[@jodymorgan2805]

They made it clear that Zariel needed a test subject for her engine, AND had been working to steal from other Archdukes in the hells. And while it's never explicit, Karlach was young, inexperienced, and trusting; Gortash could very easily have gotten her to offer herself without realizing it.

[@jodymorgan2805]

And like, Mizora is technically a Cambion, so a mortal child of a devil and a humanoid. The Lemures are only what happens to dead people when they go to hell. So they never really needed to work their way up the chain. Karlach was just the one of a long series of experiments that finally worked to build a super soldier. Zariel going so very very hard mode into the blood war AND becoming evil from the demongoo, it makes sense that she'd go too hard in trying to grab a new power to fight in the war. Your points are very well made, but I think it's important to look at Zariel's corruption as she continues on constantly fighting the Blood War.

[@panelsofDOOM]

Well said. This was the take I was working under when I played the game. Also the Lemure thing was a weird oversight. Not every devil was a person who died or a fallen celestial. Or even the many stories about Asmodeus, the king of liars, implying he's not in fact a fallen celestial but something older.

[@magister343]

@@panelsofDOOM Obviously Asmodeus was just the last guy to cast the "Destroy Universe" spell.

[@GodBeastX]

I was with you until you said "Contacting a devil for a contract is not an easy thing to do." The 3rd Edition book "Fiendish Codex II" points out devils scour the land looking for people to make pacts. They hang out at temples, haunted places, forts, even waiting at crossroads at night. Selling your soul to hell is easy. And they try to make it as easy and as comfortable as possible.

[@exzyyd392]

Also in BG3 itself, Raphael just kinda throws himself at you every chance he gets

[@Broomer52]

@@exzyyd392 he hangs out in an extremely popular spot for “pleasure seekers” and the mistress actively knows he’s there. Not to mention theirs a shop down the street that specializes in contacting Hell. Making deals with Devils is so easy it’s an actual business

[@exantiuse497]

@exzyyd392 Well, Raphael has a special interest to the party, as he sees them has his key to get the crown. But he is a fairly powerful devil (the game calls him cambion but he's much stronger than that), maybe weaker devils are more interested in ordinary people

[@DaWishard]

Counterpoint Its still Zariel we are speaking about. You think she has time, or even wants, to dick around the mortal plane? Saying that one point stated in an older book in a ttrpg series that changes its lore with every edition negates everything said in the video is... kinda short sighted, wouldn't you say?

[@klaykid117]

Yes that's a weird thing to say. Maybe he's getting summoning a devil confused for just making a deal.

[@ianmoore2351]

ON ZARIEL 9:50 "It seems so out of character to me that Zariel would just conscript random people into her army that she has no connection to or hasn't made a contract with or anything." In "Descent into Avernus," (referenced as DiA further) Zariel has made deals with Thavius Kreeg that binds himself and anyone who swears to protect Elturel (something all citizens must do) to her. Are these not "random people" that she "hasn't made a contract with?" The book states that Zariel seeks to use the people of Elturel as fodder in the Blood War. There's the angle that she's just doing this to Elturel because of her history with the city, but DiA says that Baldur's Gate is next on the list if she can help it. 11:44 "In my understanding of this character she doesn't conscript every living soul into her cause. Would she? Yes. If they came offering." I don't think the people of Elturel came offering. 17:36 _In which the background of DiA is stated._ Glad I decided to watch the whole thing before posting, because this part has me confused. So is Zariel's contract collection of Elturel and it's citizens (who's only crime is being tricked by Kreeg into swearing an oath to protect the city meaning Zariel owns them) out of character or not? You seem to have no particular issue with that in this part. Because over 100 years ago some of the Hellriders betrayed Zariel and left her for dead in Hell, she has the devilish right to the entire city's population? 11:15 "I can totally see this could be an interpretation of Zariel's character where she's become desperate and that fighting the Blood War is all that she's good for." I think it's more to the point that Zariel wants to _win_ the Blood War, rather than fight it forever, like you said at 11:57. ON DEVILS 12:00 "The issue here is that contacting a devil, even for a contract, is not an easy thing to do." Correct, contacting a devil can be difficult. That's why devils normally come to you. If you cry out to the world hard enough and the gods don't answer, a devil will. See the people in the Soul Coins that the bugbear merchant in Moonrise Towers gives to Karlach, see Thavius Kreeg in DiA, etc. ON GORTASH AND KARLACH 14:29 "You can't just send someone off to be conscripted by a devil." Correct. Karlach is _sold_ to Zariel in exchange for something. She makes it fairly clear. What that something is, well... You are right that we don't know the specifics of what Gortash gained out of his deal with Zariel. Most people assume it has something to do with the infernal engine, it could've been a collaborative project between the two, making better engines for infernal machinery and Steel Watchers, maybe Gortash would send a battalion down to Hell after he and the other Chosen Bad Ended the Sword Coast. Maybe Gortash sold Zariel on the idea of a suped up infernal engine powered soldier and this was what she was going to do with all the people of Elturel. Could've had something to do with all the infernal metal that Gortash seems to have lying around to make into infernal engines for the Steel Watch and weapons for his Baneites and arms smuggling business. It is unfortunately just speculation when it comes to what Gortash gained from handing over Karlach. Numerous times in the video you make mention of Zariel wanting Karlach dead, but that's a little if-y. We know Mizora wants her dead, and the fake paladins of Tyr will accept her head, but if you bring Karlach to the paladins to confront them and out their secret, Anders says that Zariel wants Karlach back. Karlach's whole thing about not going back to Avernus is because she's afraid of what Zariel will put her back into her service and/or kill her. Karlach doesn't know, she's terrified of going back. ON OTHER STUFF 16:35 Mizora is a cambion, according to the wiki, so she wouldn't have started as a lemure. ON THE PART THAT MAKES NO SENSE So as I understand it, the part that makes no sense is that Gortash sells Karlach to Zariel for something the game doesn't outright state, which doesn't make sense to you, because why would Zariel want some rando to conscript to fight in the Blood War, because Zariel doesn't conscript randos to fight in the Blood War? Right? I very well could be misinterpreting. I mean, as per DiA, she seems perfectly content with conscripting randos to fight in the blood war, see every citizen of Elturel via her contract with Kreeg, DiA says she'd do it to other cities like Baldur's Gate as well. But I do agree that the Gortash Contract part is a rather annoying issue. I don't think it doesn't make any sense, but it 's unfortunate that the players have to fill in the blanks on what exactly the deal was. What made Karlach so appealing to Zariel? We simply don't know. That was a bit rambly, I apologize. I just noticed your take on Zariel clashing with how she's written in DiA and it just spiraled out of control. Best of luck with "Descend!"

[@carolxs]

Great analysis

[@nekomancer47]

Bro wrote a whole dissertation on another nerd’s analysis of a fictional character in a game about flinging fireballs and getting worms out of your head 💀 All that to say, I respect the time and effort to dive so deep into something that ultimately means so little 🫡

[@janstraka8674]

@@nekomancer47 we are nerds mate, this is more important than life or death, its a matter of BEING RIGHT! :D

[@hoomanben8455]

Zarziel sees claiming Elturel as her ‘right’ because not only did she save the city from vampires and is now seeking ‘just’ recompense but also as a way of conscripting the hellriders who abandoned her, fulfilling their reneged deal (this isn’t a good thing ofc and tons of innocents get dragged along, but it’s not a random act she does ‘just because’ or because she wants to conscript random people, it’s because she sees the city as owing her a debt twice over and now it’s time to pay).

[@arizonabadlads9189]

I feel like the likely answer is that Gortash receives a regular shipment of infernal metal from the hells and Zariel got a test subject who is a strong warrior to put the engine in. It would explain why Gortash got so much and why Zariel would want someone like Karlach.

[@ErrorlessQuill9]

In Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus, Zariel literally hatches a pact 50 years in the making to conscript the entire populace of Elturel as new soldiers for the Blood War. It makes complete sense to me that Zariel would make deals to get new soldiers on the front lines of the Blood War, especially with someone as duplicitous and ambitious as Enver Gortash.

[@RinIsArty]

imo zariel took up gortash's shit because karlach's engine is the prototype for the watchers, she sees the potential for a bunch of mindless automatons as the potential for more armies to fight in the blood war. Gortash starts building steel watchers, sends some of them to zariel, and over time zariel gets a giant robot army

[@Hushacry]

My thoughts, too. Cause a robot army is much less likely to betray her, or not keep their word, unlike those on Elturel.

[@rollihd714]

@@Hushacryu mean these weak things? What she gonna do with them? Play?

[@rollihd714]

u mean these weak things? What she gonna do with them? Play?

[@tenjenk]

Plus the blood war makes vast use of tech from tanks to armored motor bikes. AUTOMATED war machines would be wonderous

[@RinIsArty]

@@rollihd714 the standard one may not be incredible yet, but if gortash can mass produce ones like the final boss, much more useful for her.

[@jellewijckmans4836]

I feel like the bit where xariel pulls an entire city full of innocent people into hell is where your idea of "she would only takes the willing falls apart". She is a devil which means she is bound by rules but she also never presented as particularly strategic or well put together. She probably doesn't pay particularly close attention to how her underlings get her people for the blood war and no matter how they got there she would never accept desertion. All of that stuff probably went through like 10 layers worth of guys. Edit: I want to additionally note that given the fact that Gortash was basically raised by a devil the idea that he tricked his golden retriever body guard into giving him her soul isn't that far fetched. And once he has that he has every right under the laws of the hells to sell it to who ever he likes.

[@Gingerbiscuit16]

+1 Fully agree. Dragging an entire city into hell (by using essentially a pledge of alliance) is definitely conscripting innocents.

[@frrmrr4314]

+1

[@ornado4773]

Where you have it wrong, she didn't "conscript innoccents" she got even. The Hellriders that betrayed her, left her to die and returned made a life for themself and used their "great deed" of fighting in the Blood War to further their lives. She drags them and their false hoods down to the hells so they are FORCED to fight alongside her as they promised. Everyone else is just caught up in the middle , a necessary sacrifice to help end the fighting and WIN the blood war (direct quote from the book). Yes they're innocent, but because they lived in the city of the Hellriders, followed their doctrine - their just hellrider's that reneged on a deal.

[@linkfan6555]

Maybe she just is racist toward tieflings? That would kind of make sense?

[@jasonlu9562]

​@@ornado4773It sounds like she got even by conscripting innocents. So what's the problem?

[@seanhoedlmoser1739]

If you "lose" parts of Descent into Avernus, Zariel actually takes in the party as her lap dogs. I do partly agree with you but she isn't above using others for her own interests. She is evil and was tainted by the hells and asmodeus. I have run the module 4 times and do think she is an amazing villain but overall despite the potential redemption she is a big evil lady. It does seem like your take mostly comes from when she was an angel

[@amitgabay3721]

Jacob's a big ole simp

[@AresN7]

I have to agree with this. Yeah, she doesn't "know" Gortash but I can definitely imagine Raphael hearing about her wanting to test the machine, then him passing on the opportunity to Gortash who has a hireling that is basically the perfect candidate for this, makes sense. Maybe Raphael's motivation isn't really clear but maybe it gains him some points with Zariel (and a future potential 'client' in Karlach with the whole hope thing, assuming he's playing that far ahead). Minor spoiler -> Raphael is heir to Mephistopheles, who is also also an arch devil, so it makes sense that he could not only hear about Zariel's search for a candidate but could potentially connect to her, as well as be motivated to have a good relationship with a potential future colleague if he ever takes over. Also, it's not diluting her character to say that she became more evil. It's very feasible for characters with good and noble intentions to change in pursuit of those goals and do evil things in the name of a greater good. And that seems like it's meant to be pretty obvious with respect to Zariel. She's so dedicated to fighting the blood war that she will trick and force mortals to fight for her. It's really not unlike her to take advantage of a very good candidate for her device.

[@sinitall]

on top of what people said about Gortash selling many people to Zariel for her infernal engine experiments, not just Karlach, we also know *how* he got in contact with her. He went through Helsik, a well known diabolist and servant of Mammon who specializes in getting people in contact with devils so they can make deals. she's an established and well known fixer among devils so it wouldnt be crazy to assume she could get in contact with Zariel.

[@Li_Tobler]

Brb need to visit that store and "finish" some business there

[@KasumiRINA]

There's also book in area near Gortash parents that explains he and Orin used Helsik to get the nether crown thihgy and recruiter the third guy only because there's three stones.

[@BigFlopppa]

⁠​⁠@@KasumiRINAactually I believe if you play as the Dark Urge Gortash has dialog when you first meet him in act 3 that states Orin wasn’t part of the plan originally

[@ErrorlessQuill9]

To answer your question, Gortash sold Karlach to Zariel in exchange for the knowledge on how to build the Steel Watch. We know that Gortash has to have had a lot of experience with devils, because he and the Dark Urge infiltrated Mephistopheles’s level of the Nine Hells to steal the Crown of Karsus.

[@davidtaylor142]

The knowledge must have come later because Karlach was a prototype for the Steel Watch

[@rafaelg8373]

It is said in the game that Zariel was looking for someone to test her Infernal Machine, so her end of the deal was getting a guinea pig on her project to get stronger fighters to fight in her war. Gortash reached out and offered Karlach because he 'heard' she was looking for someone who could survive it

[@wellimeantosaywhat]

That’s also what I remembered. It doesn’t explain how exactly the “sale” took place (no contract w/ Karlach, I guess you CAN just sell anybody to a devil lol) but it makes sense generally

[@DefaultProphet]

@@wellimeantosaywhatI think that actually makes a lot of sense. Karlach isn’t bound to Zariel in anyway beyond circumstance. That lets her escape and be the best girl

[@danieljung5862]

Correct, ontop of that Gortash might have gotten the construction plans for the engine cause the Steelwatch does recognice Karlach as one of their own. She gets sent to the foundry for deconstruction, cause of her outdated model.

[@rohiogerv22]

Yeah but it's a problem of power scale. The idea that Zariel is recruiting talent from common adventurers on the material plane, even with the intent to power them up once they get to Avernus, is kinda like saying "you know what this dogfighting ring needs is rats with jetpacks". Might be effective, but a little contrived when you can get dogs.

[@wellimeantosaywhat]

@@rohiogerv22 that’s not what this comment says. Zariel was looking for someone expendable to experiment on (presumably because her own soldiers were far too valuable).

[@hosstyle4926]

Zairel took an entire city because she was desperate for troops. I’m sure she’d take conscripts too

[@davidesmacchia351]

she took the city because she needed troops AND those specific people wronged her in the past, if she had no moral and just took random people from the Material Plane to fight for her, with not just pillage Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter and so on? if, as you said, shes so desperate and acts on it without any moral, why not just make a check-list of random strong people and scoop them off the material plane?

[@themonolougist]

​To be perfectly clear Karlach was Gortash's bodyguard before getting sold. Letting others do evil deeds while you protect them isn't a good action

[@hosstyle4926]

@@davidesmacchia351 that was her plan after Eltruel. She was gonna do it again and again and again. Besides. I don’t think any of the people in the city when it fell rode with her into the hells. That was several decades before. Technically she took the children of people who had wronged her and that’s super fucked up

[@Scrinoverlord]

​@@davidesmacchia351 The entire city of Elturel didn't wrong her. Specific individuals did. She's condemning innocent people to an eternity of hellish war because her fragile ego got shattered. I don't give a shit how well intentioned someone thinks they are, that shits still evil. As a wise man once put it, "cool motive, still murder". And the reason why she doesn't just do it randomly is because the celestials are watching. Mount Celestia may not directly in the Blood War in the Lower Planes but they sure as fuck are working to make sure it stays contained in the Lower Planes. Devils randomly conscripting powerful non-evil mortal souls is one thing they try to actively thwart. Which, honestly, if she had pulled off her stunt with Elturel, would probably prompt a *significant* response from the Upper Planes. But that's for DMs running Descent Into Avernus to figure out.

[@maxunknown3896]

"Specific people a hundred years ago, so I will kidnap a few millions who were close by to their birthplace with twisted legalese justification." Pretty Devil thing to do!

[@courier6960]

For me the biggest plot hole in the story is the entire setup of Ketheric’s boss fight: Ketheric: “hey two other chosen, the group of very strong and capable adventurers wielding the only item that’s able to destroy our entire plan and everything we’ve worked towards are right here! They’re in the center of our base with our army nearby and our elder brain right here, where we have a massive upper hand!” Orin: “Okay, you handle them all by yourself, even though my entire thing is that I love more than anything else to kill people whenever I have the chance. Oh and by the way your easily freeable now repossessed source of immortality is literally right in plain sight of the adventurers who have already proven that they are capable of freeing. Gortash: “You totally got this even though they beat you literally right before this! we’ll leave and take the entire army and this all-powerful netherbrain with us, even though Orin will become completely unmanageable without your help and them getting possession of your stone would cause us to potentially lose control of everything” This scene is only dumber if dame Aylin is dead and/or your playing as the dark urge

[@TheFlamingPike]

I think that's the thing: they never fully worked together, only for their respective gods. They all had their own motives that they hid from the other chosen. They never were truly united and that's why they failed. So, it makes sense that they fight separately. Ketheric was the one who made the trio work together because he had a much different motive and when he died their alliance began to fall apart. Ketheric's death might have been something they had been looking forward to. Gortash was planning to take all the power to himself because he was that cocky ( plus him being a Bane worshiper meant his ultimate goal was to be a tyrant to all but himself ). Orin strikes me as a dumber antagonist ( which doesn't mean she's badly written IMO, she's just like that ), so I think at that point Gortash had manipulated her into thinking they'd be better off without Ketheric. Then she began doubting Gortash's abilities, didn't like his slow methods and went for Tav who was more expeditive and had left a very nice trail of blood so far. Gortash sensed she was too chaotic for his elaborate schemes so he asked you to kill her and planned to use you afterwards. When I played the game I just saw Gortash and Orin betraying a guy who had grown too confident and too powerful for their own plans. I wasn't surprised they left him and that he didn't ask for their help.

[@timcap22]

did you forget about that time zariel conscripted the people of eltural to fight in the blood war using the creed resolute

[@Powgout]

I was under the impression Gortash offered Karlach as a tribute because he believed she could survive the heart replacement, and Zariel wanted new weapons to win the blood war. Karlach proved to be invaluable as one of the few mortals powerful enough to survive the hells and even included her in her inner circle. I wouldn’t be surprised that if Elturel wouldn’t have been saved, the other Tieflings might’ve experienced the same fate.

[@Powgout]

I was also under the impression the Gnomes had waaaay more to do with tinkering than he did. Gortash is the chosen of Myrkul. The most evil politician you can think of. As a politician, he takes credit for others actions and says they’re his own. He might’ve been involved in ideas involving creation of things, but he is actually more of a background character, as shown in Durge’s story. Durge moves things forward, Gortash simply claims he helped. And the only help he might’ve done was in his connections.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

​@@PowgoutBane, you mean. Myrkul's champion is Ketheric.

[@tenjenk]

Plus ofcourse she'd call Zariel the biggest liar in the hells ever. She is making a personal non-objective statement after having 10 years of negative experiences with Zariel. Your current asshole boss will always be the worst boss and biggest liar ever.

[@323starlight]

Yeah, the bits about Zariel was a bit head scratching. But then again didnt Zariel try to forcefully conscript the entire city of Elturel in Descent into Avernus? Literally the adventure module that preceeds BG3?

[@Crossfade1625]

This. The whole point of Descent into Avernus (as I understand it) is that she’s gone too far and is obsessed about fighting the demons. Sure she got the souls of the citizens of Elturel via Kreeg, their corrupt leader, but she knows what she’s doing. In my mind she’s basically saying ‘Worth it.’ to all her behaviour, like an addict or something I can totally believe she’d make a deal with a slaver to get another soldier

[@phantomsplit3491]

He discusses this in the video. Zariel does so, but she first saves the city and its inhabitants from the vampire invasion and then holds the city to task for abandoning her in Avernus. This is totally on point for Zariel. She saves the city's inhabitants, and seeks a "just" resolution to the betrayal she experienced at the hand of the surviving Hellriders. Zariel is given the option of letting all the city's inhabitants die to a vampire invasion, or save the inhabitants and hold them "accountable." She chose the latter.

[@Crossfade1625]

@@phantomsplit3491She already punished the fleeing hellriders by binding their souls to the crypt and sticking them on iron tree branches; i dont think this logic follows when applying it to farmers and children

[@Crossfade1625]

also i should point out that when she saved the city from vampires she was already fallen, and took advantage of Kreeg’s ego and desperation to get an entire city’s worth of souls to fight demons with

[@exantiuse497]

I'm not familiar with 5th edition lore, but to me it sounds like she's very much an "ends justify the means" type of person. She hangs onto her old noble ideals to justify doing horrible things. I don't think it's too out of character to take conscripts, experiment with them and toss them into the war. All for the "greater good" in her eyes Here's my headcanon: Zariel had this prototype infernal engine hanging around. She wanted to see if she could turn a mortal as strong as a powerful demon with it. If she could get it to work she could prop up an entire army by just snatching mortals and giving them infernal engines. Then Gortash offered Karlach to her, she figured she was a fine guinea pig, stuck the engine in and after seeing how powerful it made her she took her as her "pet". The first of possibly many mortals turned into war machines. That's why she accepted Karlach and why she likes her

[@Toby_Hon_Cannoli]

"It seems so out of character to me that Zariel would conscript RANDOM PEOPLE" Warlocks, Flaming Fist, The Avernician Cult, and the entire city of Elturel: ARE WE A JOKE TO YOU? Lmao. But for real tho, thats KINDA HER THING

[@rynowatcher]

Just a commenting on the cannon lore: Zariel is an arch devil and has been for a while. She has had to provide a payment of souls to Asmodius as part of her tribute to him or lose rank and power. She has been buying, selling, trading, and cheating mortal souls for thousands of years in this time line. Of course she would take the souls offered to her; that is why devil worshipers are all about human sacricrifice. They are sending souls to the nine hells to fight in a endless war. Devils also buy souls in Hades at the hag markets. This is why sucubbi, inubi, and hags steal souls; to sell them to demons or devils in the blood war. Zariel would have participated in such markets, directly or indirectly, to sure the ranks up. The honor and justice she had as a celestrial is a memory, like most of the arch devils, they are evil and engage in evil daily, whatever they once did. Fun fact of celestrials, devils, demons, and the like: they are altered by the plane they are in as personifications of elemental good, evil, law, and chaos. For instance, if a devil stuck around mount celessia long enough it would turn into a celestial. This is why the bloodwar is endless: any incursion into hell or the abyss converts the creature towards the plane's alignment. There is a former arch devil that is a demon prince, a sucubus who is a demon prince, and even a goddess who turned into a demon by hanging out there too long. You cannot gain territory; only thin the enemy ranks, but if you push too far you join the enemy's side and start defending the territory for yourself.

[@luciver3222]

jacob the type of guy who would 100% get tricked by a devil into fighting in the blood war for all of eternity

[@crypt1k755]

It should be noted that Karlach says that Zariel saw her as a “pet” of sorts, also note that Karlach is a Zariel Tiefling. I have a feeling that Zariel wasn’t as ruthless to Karlach as it seems, it seems more like Karlach was just this ferocious beast of a Tiefling that was descended from Zariel, so she took an interest in her and kept her as a soldier, imagine if someone randomly offers you a gorgeous purebred dog that can do tricks amazingly for a cheap price, you’d probably accept it too. And I mean she probably knew of Gortash a little bit, because I assume that wasn’t the only deal with devils he did. Also most of Karlach’s trauma probably stems from being forced to do evil, and needing to live in the stink hole that is Avernus. Not torture or anything. Also Zariel gave her a mechanic and regular supplies of soul coins, she obviously cared a little bit. As for why she seems to want Karlach dead, it’s clear that Karlach was a favourite of Zariel’s even over actual devils like Mizora, Mizora wants her dead because she wants more attention, and the Paladins of Tyr are just evil freaks. There’s no indication that Zariel wants Karlach to die.

[@Inaire_Falen]

video starts at 5:43

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

I actually think the characterization of Zariel is entirely within her personality. As an angel who lost her way, she still has that moral certainty that she always did, but now uses it to justify all her actions in the name of protecting the Realms. I'm sure if she were called out on her deeds, she would say something like "This is what's necessary for the Realms to survive the endless hordes of the Abyss! If it means keeping them at bay, I will show no hesitation or indecision, even if I should be condemned as a monster for it! My actions are utterly beyond your reproach!" I always read Zariel as a "whatever it takes" type of commander, willing to stoop to any lows because she views losing to the demons as a greater evil than anything else she's presented with. Certainly if an arms dealer like Gortash showed up offering his most skilled bodyguard's service (and who knows what else), I should think she's in no position to turn it down.

[@ravenblood1954]

I can also see Karlach misinterpreting Zariel’s fascination with her. A defining trait of Karlach is her compassionate nature yes, but her other defining trait is her rage. She is a barbarian, and judging by how the story treats her, she’s probably a berserker. One of the surest ways to earn Karlach’s fury is to harm an innocent. And Karlach demonstrates repeatedly that she feels absolutely justified in killing people she feels are morally irredeemable. Sound like anyone familiar? Karlach thinks Zariel is obsessed with her because she sees her as a pet, but I think Zariel actually LIKES HER. At least, likes her in the way a devil can like anyone anyway. Yes she has Karlach killed, but that was probably a political move on her part, as letting her go might be seen as an act of weakness in hell. But to me, knowing Zariel’s backstory and how Karlach says she was part of Zariel’s inner circle despite not being her strongest fighter, Zariel probably genuinely feels affection for Karlach, in a twisted way. Just like Karlach has a strange friendship with Flo, another cambion in hell.

[@redviego6714]

​@@ravenblood1954to build on your take. I think Zariel wanted to see Karlach get stronger so she could then be turned into a hell knight.

[@keithcurtis]

Possibility: Karlach is not damned. Her soul was not sold, her body was. Zariel was betrayed by the Hellriders because they weren't up to the horrorsof the blood war. Someone in Zariels service invents an infernal engine, a way to make mortals equal to the challenge. She needs a mortal to test it on, not a damned soul or devil. She makes the deal (details unimportant) with Gortash to get a decent fighter to test it on, she gives him the plans for the engine to test on the mortal planes as well. Zariel is mad because her test subject escaped.

[@davidtaylor142]

This makes sense. She basically never has any Wyll-style repurcussions in the game

[@117Airbourne]

So a few things that you brought up in the video that I'd wanna point out as to how this actually does make sense. 1. In descent into Avernus we know that Zariel is planning on dragging the city of Baldur's Gate into the hells just like Elturel was. She has the Vanthampur trying to shatter all confidence in the flaming fist as a part of this plan. "Thalamra is paying the Dead Three to shatter confidence in the Flaming Fist so that all payments to the decapitated organization can be cut off. Thalamra, a devout disciple of the archdevil Zariel, has brokered a deal that will enable her to claim the role of grand duke once the Flaming Fist disbands, paving the way for the city’s descent into Avernus." In the game the Steel Watch is slowly taking over and replacing the fist. So with all this in mind its apart of a another longer form way of weakening and getting rid of them. This works alongside Gortash's plan and what alot of people in the city tell you as the popular belief by several npcs in game is that with the steel watch working so well the fist is not going to be needed anymore. Now with the fist gone and the only defence of the city being an army of robots powered by the hells it makes the city easy pickings when dragged in. In the iron throne mission there is a note that's from Gortash about contacting a devil for assistance with the steel watch's construction. I'd find it hard to believe that Zariel isn't having some kind of plan prepared so that when the city is dragged into the hells that the steel watch become useless in the protection of the city allowing for her forces to drag it in quicker and cut down what little defences are left. Now you may say that Thalamra Vanthampur is typically killed in the descent into avernus module which is a fair point but in canon to the game we don't know her fate. In the dnd comic "Infernal Tides" (which is the canon version for what happens in the descent of Elturel in game) the Vanthampur family never shows up in it and are left out all together. In the game only one member of the Vanthampur is ever mentioned and it's on a grave stone in the city and it's not even one of the members in the adventure. So as far as we are aware that plan could still be happening in the background of everything. But the deal between Zariel and Gortash happens 10 years before the game and the descent happens very close to the start of the game so the deal could be apart of Zariel's long term goal of dragging the city into the hells and helping Thalamra weaken the fist. 2. As to why Karlach was sold to Zariel and how that even works, I think it's pretty straight forward especially when you use descent into avernus as the example. When Zariel claims the city and drags it into the hells she also claims all who have made an oath to the city thanks to the contract she has with Thavius Kreeg the High Overseer of Elturel. To quote the contract "In my capacity as High Overseer of Elturel and its vassal territories, I acknowledge that all lands falling under the light of the Companion are forfeit to Zariel. All persons bound by oath to defend Elturel are also considered forfeit." It wouldn't have been hard for Gortash to get such an oath out of Karlach as she herself says that she was incredibly naive and trusting of Gortash back then. This would allow Gortash to give her to Zariel without her consent as neither of them need it. Now as to the why she was sold that comes down to Zariel wanting test subjects for the infernal engine to strengthen her forces in the blood war. Karlach mentions that she was the only surviving test subject saying the others burned up. Now this is exactly what Zariel would want a mortal for especially one that could fight. I'd imagine that other subjects involved devils at some point but if it's killing them when testing it that's too big a risk. When a devil dies in the hells they are gone for good and when Zariel needs all the forces she can get against the endless hordes of the abyss thats something you don't want to waste your own people on. A mortal test subject is perfect as should it die their soul (if owned) can be claimed and sent straight to becoming a lemure and joining her forces. It allows Zariel to test a new way of strengthening her army while losing nothing but a couple of mortals she got as a bonus on deals and will get back in the form of low ranking devils that can rank up. 4. As to how Gortash could get in contact with Zariel thats a easy one. We know in the house of hope there's a scheduled visit from a Verillius Receptor, a High Inquisitor of Zariel who has official permission to audit Raphael's collection. Gortash would have absolutely seen this person before when he was in the house or someone like them and could use a sending scroll to contact them. Also as someone who was looking for more power over the city back then, Zariel could have been interested as well as he could prove to be a useful pawn in her plans for the city just like the Vanthampur family was. 5. Not as important but Mizora was never a lower devil like a lemure or even an imp. She is a Cambion which is a direct off spring of a fiend and humanoid. She only grew in power in the same form like a child becoming an adult and I'd guess she was raised in the hells and rose to power there like the examples mentioned in the monster manual. "Cambions raised in the Nine Hells serve as soldiers, envoys, and personal attendants to greater devils." Now with all this in mind I do think that there should have been more in game references to it like you said. It's not fully explained what the deal that Gortash made was but we can infer alot. But with everything that's going on in the game already it might have been abit too much to hint that city is gonna get dragged into the hells or that there is a plan in motion for it. But overall I do think it makes sense it just need more explaining in game.

[@imran8880]

I fully support this explanation and both the video's suggestion because it's proof a lot of elements in Act 3 is rushed. A lot of cut contents that should be in the game that further explains the narrative and worldbuilding. I do think like another comment said, they went with what's at the release of the game for Karlach story is because they want to keep the theme of "cycle of abuse" .

[@theleemaaeras2083]

That section about what you would have done differently - the backstory rewrite - gave me c-h-i--l-l-s. Literal chills. Man you got me. Also excellent work as usual :3

[@xaldrortenderofthevats8948]

iirc, Zariel did unleash Demons onto Baldurs Gate at some point, so as to remind the mortal realms that Demons exist and need to be dealt with. so she doesn't seem to particular with civilian casualties, even if the point is to rally mortals against the Abyss.

[@ZarloSkald]

It's hard to take the points seriously, seeing our fireball wizard fawn over Karlach ahaha. Love the callout for Zariel's portrayal

[@Broomer52]

No this whole thing makes sense especially since Zariel has an “at all cost” fallacy going on. Karlach is one hell of a fighter so she bought Karlach to use as her own personal Doomguy. She wants people in hell so she can use them as soldiers to kill all demons.

[@jeanpierrepolnareff2356]

3:04 wizard jumpscare

[@zachclawges6932]

I think the issue lies in you misunderstanding the relationship between Gortash and Zariel and the events that occurred. Gortash didn't just randomly give Karlach to Zariel. Gortash was already after the Netherstones, he was already working for the Dead Three. He has his plans to use the Steel Watch to be his army, but he needed help perfecting the infernal engine. So he sold Karlach AND the engine plans to Zariel to experiment so Karlach would become a prototype for his Steel Watch. From Zariel's perspective, Gortash is offering her a new weapon to WIN the Blood War, which is why she's so desperate to get Karlach back. In return, Zariel gave Gortash the perfected engine designs. Zariel wouldn't normally take someone against their will, nit Gortash didn't sell her Karlach as a person. He was selling her a super weapon

[@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator]

The Nine Hells isn’t just a place, it’s an alignment plane and as such, spending a few centuries there will turn anybody in a lawful evil devil. It doesn’t matter how good her original intentions were; Zariel is now a devil and behaves like one.

[@firelordeliteast6750]

Thing about Forgotten Realms lore is just that. Most of it’s been forgotten and the sources we have are either from innaccurate sources (Volo) or malicious ones (Xanathar). The story of BG3 is told by the narrator, whereas other stories about Zariel are told by other people. Naturally, the narrator has a different view of Zariel than the storyteller of Descent into Avernus, thus the depictions are different. This is why characters often change personalities and lore across sources. Different storytellers tell different versions of the same story

[@Ravingprep]

In regard to 14:11, if you speak with Fytz the Firecracker (weapon merchant) as Karlach in Act 3 you do find out that Karlach was the only one 'keeping Gortash in check', so there might actually be some truth to him getting rid of her because she's a "sweetheart." (which she ABSOLUTELY is). So not sure if that fully helps but there is at least some dialogue in the game cannon of Karlach holding him back. And if he is praying to the god of tyranny, it would make sense for him to want to rid himself of someone holding back his tyrannical reign/forcing him to be humane. To take it one step further it may be that because Karlach is so darn likeable (and really just makes you wanna do good) that resulted in her getting sold to Zariel.

[@user-ck5gm3oq3b]

Very good explanation

[@Knight1029]

I think one of the biggest issue with Baldur's Gate 3 is that you can't ask questions. What I mean is that you can ask some questions but not follow up questions or questions you should. If a person's knowledge of DnD lore is just BG3 they would have seriously lacking knowledge. All they would know is the broad strokes. Whats a devil in this universe? Evil. Whats a blood war? A war involving evil people. There is no detail on what tge blood war is about. And that's a huge issue I have with the game. It feels artificial because of that.

[@2weih4u]

Gortash exchanged Karlach for the blueprints for the infernal engine. It wasn’t just “here, have a tiefling”, from my understanding.

[@psmitty840]

My party just finished the DiA module and I had Zariel try to recruit the party. The idea being, devils that die in Baator are gone, demons that die in Baator come back to fight again. She took Elturel as a means of getting two things: a sudden influx of troops to support pushing the front line into the Abyss where demons could actually die and to attract the inevitable powerful heroes who could act as generals or special forces, targeting specific demon lords. They absolutely didn't go for it and killed her ass, but I thought the justification made sense with her story lol.

[@devonpan2447]

What I do want to add is that there is a tidbit about how karlach seemed to be the one who could survive the infernal machine. Which leads me to believe that zariel was trying that out herself and was failing and Gortadh provided karlach due to his assurance that she would make it

[@yall_might]

He went out of his was to correct his pronunciation of Astarion. but kept saying Karlach and Zariel wrong the entire video.

[@wargodmarrs9492]

So, no one asked, but here’s my theory: Karlach was sold to Zariel 10 years ago. Gortash, presumably, needed an absolutely insane amount of materials to build the Steel Watch. So he sold a particularly hardy mortal to Zariel for her to experiment on. The reason a mortal is needed here is to test the Infernal Engine’s effectiveness at both empowering mortal implanted with it, but also forcing them to stay in Avernus. If some plucky adventurers hadn’t pulled Elturel out of Hell, I expect it could have been Zariel’s plan to implant the former Hellriders and other citizens of the city and conscript them into the war, thereby forcing them to fulfill their obligations (and now they can’t leave Avernus even if they found a way to traverse the planes on their own, or else their new Engines will kill them)

[@isaacgilmour6063]

I really hope there is a big DLC for BG3 and that a lot of this sort of thing is included. Karlach deserves much more story.

[@sunbleachedangel]

fingers crossed for that and many other things

[@josephstrand3595]

Already did dude, post game content is out

[@JoshuaHarrison-gq9cr]

will more than likely just be a baldurs gate 4 instead of a dlc, they said they're not working on any dlc right now and the dlc for the previous baldurs gate entries were basically the size of full games anyway

[@corwyncorey3703]

They no longer have access to the IP. They have already moved on to the next project. Hasbro and WotC are dead set against "buy and own" concepts these days, and Larian is *all in* on that concept. Anything further will be minor at best. DLC as in minor things like they have already done. No expansion pack will be coming. However, Larian will still be doing their own stuff. Doing BG3 got their name on the map. Served it's purpose. But harmed WotC's goals massively. They want to convert D&D into a subscription service and charge for everything, forever, as a rental.

[@sunbleachedangel]

@@corwyncorey3703 you say something like that with such certainty while knowing nothing about what you're talking about. Source? Proof? Anything?

[@gonzolikesmovies]

My favourite part of Descend was when Descendius said "it's descending time" and descended all over the place

[@pfcblint3171]

Zariel doesn't, particularly, want Karlach at first, it's more of a "oh, another for the vanguard", however being mortal and weaker than most devils, having a good constitution compared to most mortals (barbarian), and a tiefling with fire resistance to boot, it made her a candidate for an experiment which, if successful, would allow Zariel to beef up her mortal military with infernal machines to make even her basic infantry fight on par with lower devils, setting their lowest bar higher than most army's mid-tier. Strategically it isn't a bad idea if you have no morals stopping you. She's less of a "special soldier" and more of a "valuable experimental asset". Getting mad about her leaving, that's because she's holding experimental tech. If it gets to others she's fighting against in the blood war, it will put things back on par instead of giving her an advantage. I don't think Zariel was actually a part of the deal to get Karlach, itself. I think it may have been a go-between that initially took Karlach. Gortash sold Karlach because, as you said, he's repeating what happened to him, and now he's a chosen of the god of tyranny with a larger plan to enact in any way possible.

[@nicklance4788]

In my opinion Zariel would absolutely treat other devils the way she treated Karlach. She’s “evil” but she still despises devils and demons. Only accepted Asmodeus’ deal because killing demons was preferable to not killing demons.

[@lekarabbit5181]

I think It's possible they wanted to show zarel has become more Evil since decent into avernas she may be the final boss of the dlc

[@agarnes100]

I actually love the idea that all of the Archdevils are, in at least some capacity, invested in the protection of the material plane. They've all got different reasons they fell from grace and all got corrupted in different ways, but even in stories like Dante's Inferno the rulers of each circle are simply doing a job. Eternally punishing sinners is a way of ensuring that the material plane stays reasonably safe by dissuading people from doing evil things.

[@ZeroReaper42]

Something to consider is how people's perceptions of others can be twisted in BG3 and things are not always what they seem. It's a constant theme within the characters that we meet. We're told that Karlach is this big devil lady who's a veteran of the Blood War, but it turns out she's just a victim. Wyll is this gallant wanderer of justice until we find out he's actually taken a pact with a devil to save his town and serves her and her interests. Lae'zel is like this also, even though she comes off as this battle-hungry fiend who cares very little for things like love and life, it's eventually revealed that she has a softer side to her that she was never allowed to grow. The thing is, even though Zariel is described as this betrayer and manipulator and deceiver by all of the people we meet, that might not actually be the case until we meet her. If we ever meet her. She might just act the way you think, or someone else will interpret that differently depending on how they meet her, but the initial impression of that character should not be the final one until you get to this version of Zariel better in this universe. If that ever happens.

[@yonizabow7483]

About the selling people to the hells and that. Isn't that the whole story of Elturel? Thavius Kreeg sold all the people there to Zariel with the the creed resolute. So it should have been quite simple for Gortash to have best girl Karlach to sign something similar.

[@TheMisbegottenOphanim]

Gortash might have somewhat of an influence in Avernus because he served as the "aprentice" of Raphael's Warlock in the House of Hope, however, that's with the assumption that Gortash gained his freedom, and some influence in Avernus, from Raphael by secretly helping someone with more influence and power in the Nine Hells, possibly by stealing from Mephistopheles or by other means. Which then gave him the opportunity to sell people to Zariel/Zariel's servants for the knowledge of creating the Steel Watch and how to control the Elder Brain. (Maybe even the chance to meet Bane himself.) P.S. It would be funny if everyone blames Zariel and her servants were using her influence for their own means without Zariel knowing what's happening, imagine she comes back from the Blood War and she just then finds out about the shitshow with Gortash and Karlach😅

[@chrisrubin6445]

"accepting offers from random people" certainly is ONE way to frame a Pact between a Devil and a powerful Warlock.

[@ducksocks629]

From what I gathered about Zariel in her history, is that she doesn't care about the material plane, but only wants to destroy evil, mainly the demons no but also devils in the past, because the celestials are taking an extreme non-intervention stance on the Blood War. This stance frustrated Zariel, not in that the material plane was being attacked, but that evil was allowed to persist. Her story being the classic fable with the Nietzsce quote, "Stare into the abyss long enough and the abyss stares back at you." Her fanaticism lead her to becoming what she hated most kind of thing.

[@Scrinoverlord]

Something like that, yeah. Though it helps to point out that Mount Celestia doesn't directly fight in the Lower Planes, where most of the fighting takes place. But as soon as the Blood War spills outside the Lower Planes, they're fair game to smite. To Celestia, the evil vs. evil conflict was proof that evil is self-defeating, and doesn't *need* to be ended, something which by itself simply isn't possible. Also, Celestia TRIED to directly invade the Lower Planes, and got thrashed by a united demon-devil horde so hard they're still recovering to this day. So it makes sense, their stance. Zariel just believed it was as easy as simply diving into the pit of evil, in her frustration forgetting that Mount Celestia is the only reason why the Blood War hasn't consumed the rest of the universe. Evil isn't "allowed" to be unchecked, but in this specific planar conflict, the celestials find it's much better to quarantine the fighting.

[@IshgardBlues67]

What bothers me is that the party has access to a solution to the Karlach problem right out of the gate. Withers has True Resurrection. True Resurrection can create an entirely new body for someone and replace missing organs, etc. So... all you need to do is kill Karlach, cut out her engine, have Withers resurrect her, and boom. Karlach has her heart and no more infernal engine problems. Same applies to the tadpoles... if anyone in the party were to die or have their body destroyed, Withers would bring them back sans tadpole with True Resurrection. Probably shouldn't have given the party unlimited access to a 9th level spell for 200 gold.

[@GusJenkinsElite]

Make it disabled until late game, or make it a side-quest to even get the option

[@lavity7157]

Right out of Baldurs gate? I didn’t read the rest of your comment, and I still haven’t played the game yet :)

[@stevendorries]

Oh shit, he’s using True Resurrection when he’s reviving people?

[@gosteiefavoritei1]

That ressurection is only there for gameplay reasons, they need to have a way of ressurecting characters that died even if they fall into an abyss or into lava. Imo you shouldn't consider it really canon storywise

[@hevianoidiota]

I think the explanation for that is that Withers wouldn't do it because of the "balance of the universe" or something. Now, the scroll of True Resurrection you get from Gale dying has no excuses.

[@calvinginn1637]

why doesn't every character have the giga-handsome facial structure, that's the real question why did a mod have to do it and why wasn't it default!!!!

[@james_sabin]

I could see Zariel doing this if she felt like she was loosing and needed everything she could get. It could be a cool perspective to get if we get a dlc in Avernus with Karlach

[@GH-un9uz]

My head cannon when I first confronted Gortash in act 3 is that his betrayal of Karlach is what earned him his position as Bane's chosen, the act that gave him his netherstone. An ultimate act of betrayal that involves sacrificing someone who considered him a friend for little-to-no benefit for himself, just being cruel for cruelty's sake. As for why zariel took karlach in? No idea

[@marekszewczyk5076]

Gortash was already plannig to create the steel watch, made a deal with Zariel. He sells/trades Karlach as a reliable fighter and also a blueprint for the steel watcher's engine prototype (when you talk with a steel watcher on the bridge in wyrm's rock, it talks about how karlach has an outdated engine and treats her as a steel watcher's old model), gets better bodyguards in return (made with infernal tech and stuff by the gondians) that he then uses in the whole Absolute plot. Concerning the point of Karlach being conscripted to Zariel's forces - nowhere in the game is it stated that her soul is bound to the hells (like Wyll's if you take another pact), so supposedly if she dies, she just goes to the fugue plane (spoiler - she does if she dies in the end). Seems to me like Zariel just took a deal, kinda like "hey, wanna good fighter in exchange for/to test some hell engine?" "sure, why not, could always use some fighters in da blood war" (also, as a final "ehm, akshualy" note - Mizora is a Cambion, and even refers to herself as a half devil, when you ask her about how she got captured, so she would not start as a lemure)

[@savagesnakekid]

I always understood it as Gortash designing the infernal engine, but needing the materials, went to Zariel and was like “I got this new invention that can make mortal fighters way stronger by replacing their heart. Then Zariel is like “fine, but let’s see if it works with a test subject” and Gortash is like “I know just who is tough enough to handle it.” Zariel gets a better than average warrior and new technology, and Gortash gets the infernal iron for his steel watch. Also, Mizora is a cambion like Raphael, so I don’t think infernal hierarchy works the same way for them.

[@BueBue701]

So here's my view on it. Gortash is the chosen of Bane, God of Tyranny. If Karlach upon taken a job from Gortash signed a contract, *in best Asmodeus impression i can do* "Should have read the fine print." She was now the property of Gortash for him to sell as he pleases. (Weird to think a follower of Bane would think of people as just pawns and nothing else, right?) Zariel is fighting a war and needs bodies. Devils are all about contracts, as seen with Mizoura and Wyll. Subsection Zeta paragraph 3b point 4 of page 532. These contracts are usually filled with litigation and loopholes against the signee. (Most of the time) If Gortash had a contract with Karlach, that she unwittingly signed that said she was the property of Enver Gortash in any way, Gortash had all rights in a devil's eyes to sell her to Zariel.

[@Froggy711]

Maybe think of Zariel like this: imagine a soldier sent off to war. She has gone from a world of kindness to one of cruelty and pain. Duty keeps her there. she is surrounded in madness. She spends so much time there she becomes innured to it. It doesn't bother her like it used to. she loses her ability to pity and empathize with the demons and devils and learns to prejudice and hate. then.... she becomes a devil. At this point, she's sold. it's not about protecting anybody anymore, it's about putting it to the demons. she hates heaven for sending her here. all she has left is her task.

[@etherealceleste]

Easy: you're stuck on alignment and they are trying to get rid of alignment. You are aware of her being "Lawful". They aren't.

[@Jach93]

Great video, interesting points! I do disagree however, having read all of descent twice now I do think what we have heard about her and her actions tracks. She is totally down to forcefully conscript an entire city, and has no qualms using traitors and liars to do it. While I wouldn’t call her the biggest liar in the hells (though I could see why Karlach would say that) she can scheme just like the rest of them. She also may have wanted Karlach as a test subject to maybe shortcut needing to raise devil soldiers to instead use engine-powered mortals. Saves time and you’ll likely have better quality than what will most likely be 90% lemures/bearded devils. That should have been mentioned in game to be fair though, but I don’t think it’s a big leap.

[@Gigawolf1]

Seems pretty obvious to me why Zariel might want mortal soldiers to bolster her ranks instead of waiting for a bunch of deals to create a bunch of Lemurs that could eventually become a valued upper Devil whose loss would be greatly felt. Especially if the mortals were there because of deals that would have them turn into devils after death, so they serve Zariel twice

[@tyffordgames1143]

I like to imagine the whole karlach thing was like a first edition project of hers to see if it works. If she can strap a hellfire engine to any old tiefling and make it strong enough to fight in the blood war, imagine what regular devils could do when powered by one. 😮

[@draconefox]

Tbh I think there’s gonna be a dlc or continuation in which we can save Karlach/remove or stabilize the infernal engine, and perhaps zariel will get more focus and detail of her story!

[@Discostick55]

It was alluded to that Gortash was an arms dealer, dealing in infernal weapons, before. Gortash got some leverage on the Gondians (like their families in the Iron Throne) to work on some infernal stuff. Whatever the properties of inernal metal made the weapons so good, made the engines good too. So he needs access to a lot of infernal metal. Perhaps he sold this back to the Zariel to use as an advantage in her blood war. To prove to Zariel this shit was good, he got the Gondians to install the engine in a guinea pig, a bodyguard he had hanging around. If that protype did good in the Blood War, Zariel and Gortash could become partners in making infernal engines made with Zariels metals and Gortash's engineers.

[@Discostick55]

The story needed a link to Avernus and infernal metal and Zariel is just the top dog of Avernus.

[@Discostick55]

Karlach is also an unreliable narrator who can only speak to what happened to her, but not the exact reasons. She might think that Gortash sold her and then Zariel decided to install an infernal engine, but that decision could've been Gortash for all we know. Just a random tiefling getting beefed up to fight in Zariels ranks amongst high-ranking devils could've been exactly what Gortash needed to advance his position enough to deal with the devils for the infernal steel

[@bobybimberbod8500]

Zariel's backstory sounds like Revan from KOTOR

[@NathanielTBeene]

10:31 What a wonderful face and spasming movement that I have never, ever, EVER, done in my entire life while trying to explain things.

[@tavionk2107]

I asumed that "selling" Karlach was part of the sheme to get the Crown of Karsus. And i can imagine young Naive Karlach just signing anything Gortash gives her to sign so a conscription is made. Also thought that Karlach is "special" for Zariel as the best working example of her machine projekt. imaging a Army of Karlachs running on those machines could be quite valueable in the bloodwar.

[@nm2358]

I think Zariel's main issue is the fact she's a lawful extraplanar entity; her mindset is laser focused by the design of her heavenly creator. So be it an angelic slayer of fiends, or a devil dedicated to killing all demons in the blood war, her mind is dedicated to that war. Although I would love, love, love, to interact with Zariel directly in BG3. I would in a heart-beat trade my MC to hell, or do some crazy heist, to save my pal Karlac.

[@zetsubanned4308]

I love the zoomer "tiny microphone utilized in a weird way" fad. Totes adorbs.

[@michaellittlefield6906]

BTW more children = happier life + more fulfillment.

[@Harab_Serapel]

So I kind of inferred that Karlach was probably something of a proof-of-concept for Zariel. An experiment to test the efficacy of the infernal engine being used to power up a random Tiefling. Following that logic Karlach was probably being stress tested in the blood war, with the intention of using the data from that to create better models. I kind of imagine that Karlach isn't the only she tried this one, hell she may not even be the only one Gortash threw Zariel's way, she was just the one that survived. Not that I have anything to back any of this up.

[@KlodasRaw]

Man, I ran Descent into Avernus as my first campaign as DM. Finished it earlier this year after a year and a half, something like 120 sessions. I changed it quite a lot too, ended up going to level 16. Most fun I've ever had, loved every second of that campaign. Can't wait to see what you do with it.

[@christopherpittaway8902]

To my knowledge, the upper city, as well as avernus were cut, part of why karlach’s soul coins are so inconsequential, they were apparently meant to be used as currency in avernus

[@goodgulfgas]

I forget which NPC referred to "a group of adventurers saving Elturel from Avernus", but I was like "yeah, I know who did that. That was my other character".

[@helpme6759]

Couldn't Zariel just be a "I'll do whatever it takes to win the war, since demons are the greater threat" kinda person

[@barbarianandy]

This. I see no reason why her character has to be reduced to "she just evil" for her to be willing to do anything and everything to destroy the demons, the greatest threat to the universe there's ever been.

[@sunbleachedangel]

she pretty much is from what I understand

[@tinius9276]

I really enjoyed your rewrite. I think there is so much potential for any expansion for the game regarding furthering the stories of the companions. If they do a Karlach in the hells DLC vs Zariel, I would love if this was the plot. Imagine fighting through the hells and getting to Zariel only to find her feel betrayed by karlach and that she only tried to save her life. That shit would be awesome.

[@SolomonPleasent]

I genuinely don’t believe that you’ll stop talking about this game. You are XP to Baldur’s Gate 3 in my heart now.

[@JustSayRance]

Yeah both Astarion/Cazador and Karlach/Gortash missed out due to the removal of the upper city. I really really REALLY hope they'll eventually finish it!

[@kadda1212]

I doubt that they would change the game so much to be honest. Perhaps they could add more class and race options and add another companion with a questline somehow. If they'd make really big changes they would probably have to release it as a sort of Director's Cut.

[@miavaughn2393]

​@@kadda1212i mean DOS2's final act was drastically overhauled, so i assume its a strong possibility they could do the same here. Maybe not the whole original vision of an entire underdark sized avernus as well as rhe upper city, but maybe parts of the upper city, restored quests, with a mini version of avernus to assume resolve karlachs stuff. More focused maybe with less need to stuff in ridiculous amounts of side content which i assume is why those sections were dropped.

[@KoriTheAnder]

The way I understand it is that Gortash and Zariel came to an agreement to use Karlach as a prototype for the Steel Watch. Gortash eventually gets the finished product, Zariel gets to play around with some infernal machinery. And possibly get an edge in her never ending war by being able to buff regular people to stand toe to toe with more powerful demons in the blood war.

[@Jergling]

At this point, maybe buying souls for Devils is like buying bundled subprime mortgages for banks. The scale of ownership has outgrown the owners' means of management, and rather than stop and fix the problem, individuals like Zariel feel compelled to carry the momentum at the universe's expense, lest they fall behind. Being sold might be THE pivotal moment in Karlach's life, but for Zariel (or her middle managers) it was just a busy Tuesday they had to grind through.

[@400KrispyKremes]

If there was one thing I would have added to BG3 it's some kind of end game arena so you could set big fights to test your end game builds. It's like by the time you get to max you only have a few fights left. It would be great to have some place I could go that reset it's fights or a massive challenge dungeon that goes like 100 floors of fights that I can go to near endgame, or anytime during new game+.

[@Zlittlepenguin]

It would be cool to have an “arena mode” no doubt, but I actually disagree that you get to max late in the game - at least level wise. For my first playthrough, even when skipping tons of stuff in act 1, I managed to get to max level very early on in act 3. Of course there is some gear here and there that you don’t get until act 3, but like in my second playthrough I’m doing now I’m already level 8 and I JUST got to last light inn in act 2 😅 you level up very fast in this game.

[@CiaphasKirby]

I hit max level like 10% of the way in to Act 3, every single major fight was an opportunity to flex end game builds.

[@400KrispyKremes]

@@CiaphasKirby The problem arises with builds that require end game weapons/items. If you don't need to fight Raphael to get his stuff for your end game build then you also get the privilege of fighting him with your end game build, but if you need his stuff then you can't. Long story short the items matter way more to end game builds than levels do. Not that you need that much power anyway, but that just goes to show the game could use a good challenge dungeon at the end right?

[@effbar2400]

​@@400KrispyKremesyou can get everything but the monk gloves qnd helldusk armor before fighting raphael

[@400KrispyKremes]

@@effbar2400 Well there you go then. That's two right there.

[@MJ-fj5kg]

14:12 Not sure if anyone has addressed this yet but I believe Gortash actually got the blueprints for the Steel Watchers from the House of Wonder heist. There is a book called Schematic Compendium that reveals the original design is actually Gondian. Here is the text from that book: "This portfolio notebook is stuffed with page after page of diagrams and schematics, recognisable as Gondian designs for magically enhanced mechanisms, but amended and expanded by notes in Gortash's precise handwriting, with emendations such as infernal 'hellfire' power sources, illithid synapse-cable wiring, and even githyanki image projection hexnology. Particularly striking is a diagram of a giant Steel Watcher variant, with a note in Gortash's hand reading, 'Weight insupportable? Cut the mass'."

[@MJ-fj5kg]

Also, SPOILER FOR DARK URGE STORYLINE below... It is revealed in Act 3 that Gortash and The Dark Urge enacted a heist on the House of Wonders to retrieve some Bhallian artifacts so that is why I believe he obtained the schematics from the House of Wonders.

[@spicey0flyfe658]

"It kind of goes against everything she stands for if she just starts accepting offers from random people." Literally pulls an entire city of random people in to hell.

[@ornado4773]

Okay so at 9:10 you talk about Devils and them wanting to "save the multiverse in their own kinda way." A Devil is "Lawful, Evil" Lawful means you have a law, code etc that you live by and act by maybe even are FORCED to act by, Evil means you do what you do for your benefit only. So they have a code that they live by, are forced to answer to, but wish to do it to their most benefit. The goal of a devil is to get soo many minions bellow him/her/them that they no longer have to fight in the Blood War and can instead rule over a group of devils/things and "relax". It just also so happens that this comes with the little ol thing of stopping demons from overrunning the prime material planes...and devil's LOVE using that as ammo against others. So, it's not necessarily that their looking to save the multiverse, more so they're contractually obligated to and are seeking a way to gain the most benefit from that to improve their lives....saving the multiverse is just a nice little bonus that they can lord over people.

[@adambielen8996]

Also Devils hate Demons and really don't want them to overrun all of the multiverse.

[@StormWildSpace]

Karlach was the last companion added and they hurried her story. and yeah, there was bits of her story in the upper city. That tells you how good Larian is... everyone loves Karlach, and she the last addition

[@rylog8]

Biggest Note for Zariel to me has always been the 3e tidbit: Zariel is righteous fury. Her indignant filibuster at Asmodeus's tormenting of souls prevents the actual Big Brain Arch-archon from speaking and preventing Devils from getting institutionalized in the multiverse. It's her *pride* and *obsessive caring* that leads to her Fall. She's so focused on *personal* feelings that she fails to see the greater good. It's exactly the type of thinking that crazy ambitious Devils do, hence her Fall. Arguably, it's this sort of taking things personally that **could** justify Zariel caring at all about Karlach. Furthermore, Karlach is very very clearly Chaotic. She's individualistic, she is distrusting of any authority by default, she likes Chaotic groups like the Harpers, etc. Karlach's engine and experience IS an asset that Zariel can't afford to lose to Demonkind, which Karlach is much closer to psychologically than Devils. I always figured Zariel didn't actually care in the long term. It's a convenient excuse for Mizora to be vindictive and hurt Wyll.

[@zoid_on_youtube]

I dont know that much about DnD lore, but it seems like it would make more sense if Karlachs story were somehow tied to Mephistopheles instead of Zariel. Gortash was once sold to Raphael, who is Mephistos son, and later somehow obtained the Crown of Karsus from Mephistos vault. It would seem to make more sense if giving Karlach to Mephisto was somehow part of the scheme to obtain the Crown, rather than giving her to Zariel for...reasons? Do we ever get a reason for it? Also, they hint that Karlachs engine is a similar kind of tech to the Steel Watch, but as far as I can tell, they dont share any origin, Karlachs was created by Zariel or some infernal smith in the Hells, and the Steel Watch was created by Gortash using ilithid psionics and necromancy. I think it would be better if the infernal engine was designed by Gortash as a prototype for the Watch, while also making Karlach an interesting enough bargaining chip that a devil might be interested in "obtaining" her, which Gortash would leverage to gain access to Mephistos vault.

[@ehyoflake8315]

Hey Jacob, I enjoyed listening to your thoughts about this part of the story. BG is a fantastic game but its plot is not flawless, which is an inevitable side-effect of a narrative with so many branching paths and so many decisions to account for from the moment you start the game. I actually think I prefer your rewrite because it makes Gortash more interesting, not necessarily because of what it does to flesh out Zariel and Karlach. That being said, I want to point something out that you sort of hinted at in the video. You're on record as being a big fan of Zariel in the story and their characterization. I think, however, you also have the privilege of basically playing as this character through your role as a DM. As DMs we like when our big bads can have cool/tragic backstories. Proper motivation is good character writing - its nice to have a good answer to the question of "wait, why is this person being a jerk?" But we also get a unique peek behind the curtain that informs how we imagine a character to be that is not shared by the players - ie, the regular people who don't get this information. You pointed out yourself the immense, cosmic-level feud that is the Blood War. Regular people, in comparison are basically nothing in the grand scope. That also means its impossible for them to look for nuance when at face value things are already so insane. People just see a shitload a devils and demons and either nope the heck out or end up fighting for their lives if they are unlucky enough to get thrown into the conflict. There isn't really room for them to wonder why this is happening, what the stakes are or if the people seemingly responsible are just misunderstood. Devils want my soul so they are bad. Demons want to rip my face off so they are also bad. This story is not really about Zariel. It's about a bunch of fish-out-of-water characters fumbling around trying to figure out what is going on with their brain worms and maybe, if they are lucky, using their newfound powers and friendships to tackle their trauma along the way. I 100% believe that if there were a follow-up to this game that focused on going into Avernus we would get this sort of slow roll of characterization for Zariel that you're alluding to because the Blood War is no longer just two infinite armies of evil creatures endlessly fighting on a different plane of existence. Avernus is the backdrop to BG3, not the central tension. The writers are perfectly capable of writing nuanced and perhaps misunderstood villains. See Ketheric - a forsaken paladin who god-hops until he lands one who can give him the one thing all the others could not. It comes at the price of his very soul and eternal servitude, but we understand why he does what he does and if the player does enough digging they even have the opportunity to pseudo-redeem him before the end. He is ultimately an evil piece of shit but he wasn't always and provided you're not blasting though the game you get the opportunity to figure that out. I totally get where you're coming from. When we're fans of something and have to tolerate seeing our favourite things get misrepresented on screen it evokes strong feelings. I just think you're coming at it from the angle of basically someone who is all-knowing and has all the facts, when the reality is most people on the material plane who know what Avernus is don't have this information and leaning this hard into this part of the story would have detracted from the real threat of the game which was the absolute and the dead three.

[@kriddius]

All this aside, most the characters in BG3 have backstories so ridiculous for a lvl 1 they'd be laughed off the table in a tabletop session

[@tcironbear21]

Here is my points that help it make sense: 1) Gortash knows hell magic and contracts. He probably has many of his employees unwittingly sworn in them. They probably think they are mundane contracts. 2) Karloch probably was under such a contract. 3) Karloch was probably part of batch trade. She was not the only one traded. 4) If it was such a large trade that would explain while Zariel came personally. 5) There a LOT of value in taking a bunch contract mortals as soldiers. They get to die TWICE for you. And if you farm them right in the war they could come is partially strong devil's. 6) Appearantly hell contracts are not flawless. Raphael was unable to for God Gale to give over the crown. And contracts made with trickery by mortals in which the mortal recfuses to receive the payment might be partially hard to enforce. Which is why K can runaway.

[@aechman67]

Game is so accurate to D&D it acknowledges dms changing established characters' lores

[@raydanielson6392]

Biggest problem with the storyline is that you arent allowed to select Boo to become a mindflayer in the finale if Minsc is in your party. Enormous missed opportunity

[@Asgaardiangatekeeper]

Karlach is the prototype. In return for that, Zariel supplied him with infernal iron to make his steel watchers.

[@anarkizt]

It’s also important to note though that for some reason Karlach was **IN ZARIEL’S INNER CIRCLE** and then sent not only a bunch of cultists (the paladins of tyr) but also wants Mizora to bring her back (she tells you as much in Act 2). So I was always under the assumption that Zariel approaches Gortash, she wants Karlach, sees her potential as a warrior and recognizes her strong sense of Justice and knows that with the assistance of an infernal engine she could rival even the pit fiend generals in her army. I know Karlach says she’s not the most powerful in Zariel’s army, but she also doesn’t have a super high opinion of herself that early on. Also Zariel is cunning, she’s a tactician, the biggest strongest folks are great on the frontlines but they’re not strikers or skirmishers. Also they are all evil, the soldiers of the blood war are folks who’ve sold their souls and became Lemures and then fought themselves up in rank. Karlach on the other is not. She’s *good* and carries an equally strong sense of Justice as Zariel, she’s a kindred spirit. So that’s what she becomes, a Hunter. Spending most of her time on the frontlines, but she’s not fighting in line fights, she’s singling out the commanders and taking them out. She’s not the greatest warrior she doesn’t have the highest kill counts like the pit fiends dusting numerous demons with a lash of their lighting whips, but her kills are important. So Zariel shows up to Gortash (or more likely Mizora) to make a deal, Karlach for Gortash’s deepest desire, which turns out to be the infernal machines needed to create the Steel Watchers, Gortash a cunning dick who never actually cared about his bodyguard accepts especially since Karlach could never compare to one of his Steel Watchers, because nothing can be as strong as something he thinks up with his own mind.