D&D Isn't Slow - A Response To Runesmith

sorry for all the stock footage, I talked a lot.
Logan's video: • Why D&D Feels Too Slow
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[@exzyyd392]

Mom? Dad? Please don't fight. I promise I'll never play sorcerer again

[@InquisitorThomas]

Too late they’re getting a divorce and it’s all your fault.

[@shifusdad]

@@InquisitorThomas all I heard is two birthdays

[@konstantinemarkelia759]

@@shifusdad and two Christmas es

[@InquisitorThomas]

@@shifusdad Unfortunately they’re also going to fake their death, and now Hydraxion is an Orphan.

[@CombatSportsNerd]

@@InquisitorThomas why do ya gotta hit so close to home?

[@Runesmith]

Fair enough lol

[@b3nzayizkoolyo]

King response

[@alexandrews6256]

Logan the Rune Smithy

[@facundoaloi3809]

The chad

[@TheBurningIceCream]

Actually waited to watch the whole video before commenting. Based Chad energy

[@NStripleseven]

No, no, no, no, you were supposed to say "different strokes for different folks", or give a 👍!

[@BigDickWizard6969]

The real solution is to cast Haste. Silly Logan.

[@ikejohnson5494]

Tune Smith DESTROYED with FACTS and LOGIC!

[@doolenny9458]

What about fireball?

[@ninjatom9]

Thank you BigDickWizard6969

[@master0fthearts894]

Nah, nah, *Firestorm.* That way combat will be over in *one* turn.

[@katastrophe6460]

C-crown of madness?

[@haz-mattstudio6074]

Player: "Don't railroad me, bro!" DM: "The world is your oyster." "Player: "The fuck am I supposed to do?!"

[@3nertia]

Humans are walking paradox machines lol. We always want the opposite of whatever it is that we have lol

[@DivusMagus]

this I very true. I ran a sandbox style game and even with multiple story hooks some connected too peoples backstories and even a mission board in every tavern so there is always something to do. unless I dangled a carrot in front of them the entire way to someplace they often didn't know what they wanted to do.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

This is why the campaign I'm building has several locations the party can travel to right off the hop and only a few branching paths for the plot. I want my players to explore and learn about the world, don't want to railroad them, but I also want to ensure everything they're doing has some purpose or moves them at least a little closer to the next major milestone in the story.

[@XpVersusVista]

@@3nertia or we just don't enjoy extremes. Imagine you could use your television only on mute or on 100% volume. Doubt you'd enjoy watching TV without earplugs.

[@3nertia]

@@XpVersusVista Ironically, that's the volume they play commercials at and one of the reasons I stopped watching "TV" a long time ago ;)

[@cjayhay]

Jacob basically saying "don't be mean to my friend; only I'M allowed to be mean to my friend!" is the most relatable thing in this entire video

[@thehonestcompany867]

DnD is slow: 5 minutes DnD is not slow: 20-30 minutes Oh the irony

[@christophvonpezold4699]

Beat me to it

[@elijahd-helzer4765]

No. It's dnd.

[@janehrahan5116]

To say something wrong takes a few seconds, to correct it can take hours. All in all jacobs response, like dnd, is neither too long nor too slow.

[@mr.preston1632]

Ahh I get it

[@Iyannah15]

@@janehrahan5116 that’s what makes it ironic

[@TheParagade]

"Logan who hurt you" is a good summation of this. His points sound less like criticisms of the system and more like describing a bad DM

[@raicantgame6634]

Yeah, it really sounds like a combination of bad/inexperienced DM and just not being invested in the other players. Like, my party just finished a boss fight that took two sessions to get through, and I wasn't bored for a second because I was trying to follow the ever-changing battlefield, figuring out the best ways I could use my abilities, and even getting some roleplay and character development in here and there (my very self-centered character had to decide if he was willing to risk himself to get the barbarian back up).

[@V1ctoria00]

This should be top comment

[@V1ctoria00]

Ima keep spamming here to boost this comment

[@V1ctoria00]

Someone else help lol. This is the psychology answer we needed Logan to have

[@kazeboiii]

Or even just poor chemistry amongst players. Possibly even a combination of the two, y’know?

[@bknwuzheer1]

Moral of the story: D&D was the friends we made along the way

[@bruhboss3141]

"Oh brother this guy STINKS" -fish from spoongebob

[@giantdinoboy8264]

Solution: All turn actions must be made in 6 seconds to feel more immersive.

[@saintpoli6800]

“It’s your turn” “Okay so-“ “3 seconds” “AH UHHH AH I HIT” “... That took you 7 seconds, you do nothing in your turn”

[@honooryu5374]

@@saintpoli6800 exactly! would be faster, because everyone does nothing and dies.

[@berniebroig8745]

Maybe use that Scrabble 1 minute hourglass ("minuteglass?" I dunno.)

[@saintpoli6800]

@@berniebroig8745 Most DM’s rush you when you’re taking too long, which is good. Like Matt Mercer does, it’s a good way to keep your players tense and thinking in a fight.

[@colinsanders9397]

I actually have all my players take their turn at the same time. For 4 or fewer players the party gets 60 seconds to tell me what they're all doing. For 5 or more it's 90 seconds. The whole party can see the timer. They know they're on a time-crunch. Things get rushed and frantic. People make mistakes. It's chaotic and stressful. And my players love it. It requires more prep work on my part because I have to have a plan for each encounter but I think it's worth it. I also stole all of this from Professor Dungeoncraft.

[@nobodyeverinhistory]

2:23 Hah! You fool! Rumesmith didn't say "Different strokes for different folks," he said "Fair enough lol" in the comments section; thus, making your arguments invalid. This video is flawed. Disliked.

[@itwasidio1736]

fair enough lol

[@Inconsolable_Weeb]

@@itwasidio1736 you beat me to it Dio!!!

[@willprotector]

I love listening to the party bicker and banter among themselves. It gives me an opportunity to think about what is next and review my notes. It also allows them to really feel out their characters.

[@ErikBishoff]

I'm just here to agree. I have no relevant comment to make. Agree!! 😀

[@TheKristina1978]

Or get a snack

[@chrish4439]

This 100% this. The rune guy sounds like he just wants to play HIS story and doesn't care if the players want to do something cool cus that's not exactly what he planned. Always let your players hash shit out. Gives you time to rest and think and prepare more for the next step. Some of the greatest most fun things I've come up with as a DM have been on the fly stuff I came up with based off what the players have been discussing/arguing/bickering about. Example: My players couldn't decide how to get past a couple guards. They ended up deciding to try and coerce one into a fist vs fist duel as a distraction. This led to me having the idea that the town has a venue exactly for this sort of thing. The rest of the session ended up being ridiculous wrestling style grudge matches in a tiny arena against anyone willing, while the one rogue went back to sneak past the now scarcely guarded door lol

[@harveywallbanger3123]

Agreed, bickering is great so long as it's in character. Bickering OOC about powergaming makes me want to go do my taxes.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

Kind of depends, if you're one of the party who doesn't have a stake in the conversation or has already done their part then suddenly you're just an observer for the next 10-30 minutes of conversation. I can see how people might not enjoy that situation.

[@catonaceilingfanstudios4148]

Waiting for Runesmith to comment "Different strokes for different folks"

[@Xenibalt]

he did, basically cop-out

[@papaquaalude8227]

the virgin makeup channel drama vs the chad d and d channel disagreement

[@litiumist]

Thats the first time I saw D&D written like that

[@itsethanruth]

@@litiumist Same, Alpha males always write it as DEE UND DEE

[@Not_what_it_used_to_be]

@@itsethanruth dee you en gee oh en ess ay en dee dee arr ay gee oh en ess

[@itsethanruth]

@@Not_what_it_used_to_be I can't read this HAHA

[@irishlad4723]

@@itsethanruth he phonetically spelled out the letters of dungeons and dragons

[@danchu67]

"I'm not trying to roast him or anything" shows clips of them fighting to the death

[@Sundowner777]

I just wana picture both of them still living in the same house and they both are hanging outside the door of their recording.

[@saintpoli6800]

I only find DnD too slow when nobody is involved; I got into DnD via CR as many did, so I want to RP with the group, but when the other 3-5 people are apprehensive and shy, it bogs down the game, making it feel hollow, slow. As Jacob said, arguing is still RP’ing, and entertaining than everyone just going “uh, yeah” and it zooming past us. I played in a campaign like this, where we’ve gone to like six different places with no details, talking, or real world building. I’d rather take 5 hours chilling in a town talking with the group, than zipping through everything.

[@vinyl37246]

Saturday I let my party argue for an hour about whether or not they should try to take a short rest in an inter-planar craft full of xenomorphs at the risk of getting ambushed, then finally just told them to click long rest because they spent so long in one place just talking. They said it was one of the best sessions of the year and a half long campaign because they actually felt afraid to rest even though they knew it was a necessity.

[@saintpoli6800]

@@vinyl37246 Yo a an Aliens DnD campaign? That sounds awesome!

[@thegreatandmightyseff7214]

“Honey, Its time to go to sleep now!”

[@chukyuniqul]

100% YES! I have two players (they know eachother, picked them up through LFG) who are surprisingly competent but they butt heads nearly every time (usually from the wizard trying to be cool with the "trust me" line). I once let them argue in the middle of the dungeon on whether they should bail with the prisoners they rescued or try to clear it out, with only one of the older prisoners throwing a shoe at one of them because he was disguised as one of their captors and he was hard of hearing as a distraction. I just laid back (and kept working on the thing because it was not complete) with a smile on my face while listening to them, the session was a blast!

[@DeathnoteBB]

Seriously, it’s all about what’s fun for someone. People play games for hours, not because a game is slow, but because it’s that fun.

[@raelafey1759]

Moral of the video- Logan wants to play Minecraft

[@thecookiemeister5374]

Me too, kid

[@an8strengthkobold360]

Can you blame him, minecraft is pretty great.

[@DeathIsLethal]

Oh hey, maybe with a mod or two, minecraft could make for an interesting game to play d&d in.

[@Zedrinbot]

On a more serious note: I 100% agree with what Jacob's saying. But also, *I've been in games like Logan described as slow / boring in his video and HOO boy they are not fun.* So I know where Logan's coming from. I agree with the spirit of what Logan's vid says, even if his examples are kinda all over the place. Getting plopped in a world with no goal is boring. Session zeros help so much with getting that awkwardness out of the way. You don't have to railroad your players, but a good session zero can help you know where they want to go before you start. For "auto-successes," I was discussing a topic of "the DM just lets you do something" with a few friends just tonight. It's honestly something that needs a bit more nuance, and a good example is just taking 10 or taking 20 on a task. The best example I can give, if you go through a huge dungeon crawl, you shouldn't be denied loot just because you rolled a 7 on your investigation check. (Recently in one game, we actually missed out on every single chance for loot because of this after clearing a super dangerous tower, no I'm not salty,) If the party knows there's hidden loot, and they can't reattempt their checks, you're blue-balling them by doing something like this, and they're going to deliberate on how to find it which leads to metagaming and a big slowdown on the game. If you let them take 10/20, the trade off is they're spending more in-world time for less real-world time to guarantee they get a success. There's other situations where this could also apply; basically, give players an option to auto-succeed on something if they have the ability to be careful with it and take their time in-game. It also works fine I feel for things that, for all intents and purposes, your character should essentially automatically succeed on. Trying to identify an abjuration spell, with an abjuration wizard in the party? He should just know what it is. It shouldn't be he rolls and fails, yet the barbarian decides to roll too without proficiency and somehow knows more about this abjuration spell than the abjuration wizard. As for combat simplifications, one great way to do big encounters is mob combat, from the DMG. It's a bit confusing at first, but having used it, it helps avoid the overpowering surge issue while still feeling like a threat, and without ever having to roll dice which saves you a ton of time. Zee did a video on it which is how I found out about it. The general idea though is that out of a mob, overall a certain percent of attacks are going to hit on average, so you just use the size of the mob, their attack bonuses, and the AC of your targets to determine how many attacks will hit each volley. And, when they're small enough, you can break them into individual monsters without any issue and go back to normal rolls. I've run an encounter with like 10-20 gnolls via this method and it honestly went pretty smoothly, though you do need to prep a table of your party's AC vs the attack modifiers before doing so. As for combo moves, I love the idea of them, but they honestly should just be done on your own turn and use reactions and help actions. If you think about it, people won't always know exactly what you're doing, so the best combo moves shouldn't require a lot of crosstalk--just a quick quip about "I'm doing this, do this now!" on your turn. Or you can ask your DM if the other player can do something as a reaction: playing a druid one time, our barbarian was gonna get mauled by an oversized owlbear, so on my turn, I wildshaped into a horse and asked the DM if he could grab onto me as a reaction to escape. DM just went by rule of cool. Improvised actions are also a thing which can work great for 'combo moves' if you're creative enough.

[@kasane1337]

I've been a GM for some time now, but I've never used a Session 0, as much as it sounds useful, because I don't really know what I would do in it. It doesn't really seem to me like my players want to create characters together during one session in which "nothing happens". Or does anybody have an advice on how to structure this in the best way possible to keep players engaged even without playing the game yet?

[@rafaelcalmon2858]

I mean. Some games will be fun. Some won't. The only constant is that they all use the same system. It's like saying food is poisonous because you got sick. Maybe it was past expiration date. Maybe someone left it outside the fridge. Maybe someone f***ed up cooking it. And even if none of those or any others fit, it is always more likely that the problem is with you, because food exists all around and most people aren't getting a stomachache from it.

[@Zedrinbot]

@@kasane1337 Session 0 can be a character building time. It can be as light or as deep as you want. In some I've had, it's just been "so, this is the setting, and this is what you know, so make sure your characters can tie into that." Or it might just just an overview of rules and limitations, making sure you know what everyone's comfort zone is. A chunk of that can be done via just text but having a session can help too. In another, we actually had some roleplay going on to establish preexisting relationships before the game started. E.g. in session zero we worked out that my Paladin was basically something like a parole officer for the rogue, and he got the cleric to work out a contract for the rogue's early release if he offered his services to an expedition. My paladin was gonna keep an eye on him, but the higher ups also pulled a fast one on the cleric and snuck in a clause that forced her to join us on the expedition. This was all done before the DM was prepped for session 1 and didn't require any dice rolls but we did RP it out, and it was a blast.

[@Klyskada]

@@Zedrinbot I feel like the Abjuration Wizard instantly recognizing ANY abjuration magic is kinda odd, in that they might not recognize a lvl 10 abjuration spell if they're say, lvl 5 or below, in that they haven't run into it, but they should get an advantage in identifying in solely because they know/understand abjuration magic vs the barbarian who probably knows nothing about magic in the first place, but yeah, if its a spell that they could/can cast if they had it in their book, they should be able to ID it more easily.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

@@kasane1337 My group seems to always have a session zero just for character creation. I think part of how to keep it engaging is to encourage the players to talk about their characters as they make them. It also helps with class coordination among the party, and can help line up roleplay interactions or synergies between party members. As an example, one of my group's campaigns had a rogue and warlock as a mischevious couple. Both had the "lovestruck" flaw that made them physically ill when they were a certain distance apart, and the rogue also took the "directionless" flaw which prevented her from ever going the right way unless she had a map, compass, or guide. Without session zero, it would've been harder to set up this dynamic between the characters, and have it pay off later when they became separated by whole planes of existence.

[@witchBoi_Connor]

Had a moment of “overthinking it” last session. We were standing over a pit of two guard drakes with black dragon eggs inside, and I had a vested interested in retrieving one of those eggs. We were arguing about how we should approach this, if there was any way to get down there without bothering the drakes, as well as why we had to go down there in the first place. Eventually I got so frustrated (in character) that I just blasted the door lock and we killed the drakes in barely three attacks total.

[@kevinbarber2795]

Lol nice.

[@ventexovakon2178]

I swear to the gods I've seen that pic somewhere before. It's lewd.

[@witchBoi_Connor]

@@ventexovakon2178 I’d be amazed if you have seen this pic! I commissioned it and I don’t believe the artist shared it anywhere. I have shared it, though. It is a little lewd, though, lol, nothing showing but the character is wearing suggestive clothing.

[@ventexovakon2178]

@@witchBoi_Connor Who's the artist?

[@witchBoi_Connor]

@@ventexovakon2178 they go by FoF or @_FourOFour on Twitter. Keep in mind though they do really deep fetish art, so, y’know, look for them on incognito and don’t blame me if you don’t like what you find.

[@energyspark6083]

I like the idea of Jacob making this video 5ft away from Logan while muttering to himself

[@honooryu5374]

I could see that actually being the case.

[@CharalamposKoundourakis]

At least 6ft for pandemic safety.

[@Technotoadnotafrog]

Uh oh, that's within melee range!

[@Rawrbagels]

I feel like a lot of this video didn't even argue that "D&D isn't slow" but that "Slow isn't bad". Because I also agree that D&D is 100% slow. But I don't think its a bad thing.

[@BushWookie666]

Speaking of “directing the party” I’ve been playing in a campaign for 2 months now and we’ve completely forgotten about the story, and now one player is building a harem and a business.

[@berniebroig8745]

"Different strokes for different folks." ~Logan, eventually

[@tysonsummerall4692]

Congrats on the wedding, now in video's you don't have to say "This is my fiance, Spencer" everytime you introduce her Edit: WHOA didn't expect the heart thanks

[@ValkenOfAstora]

Well now he always has to say: "this is my wife Spencer"

[@berniebroig8745]

"Mah wife" ~Jacob, emulating John Malkovich

[@FourElemental]

"This is my ex-girlfriend, Spencer." - Jacob Prob

[@thetwizard9290]

Yah, since you edited the comment the heart went away.

[@JimothyTheGreen]

Basically what I'm hearing is that Logan was frustrated and going through a railroad dm phase. It's okay, it happens to a lot of us.

[@collagenc.phosphate6666]

What’s this? A discussion between two respectable and passionate content creators in a public space to inform the community from two different perspectives so viewers can form their own opinions? Nay boi it’s time to draw battle lines! Let’s all fight in the comments!

[@gingerinajacket8519]

Ok, I am a bit of a typing heavyweight, and took a few honors philosophy classes in college, and my fingers dont get tired from typing, lets do this! Logan's entire argument to me gets cut down to "why even put the obstacle there in the first place if you dont want it to actually be a challenge for your players?" and then I have to ask myself why is he playing DnD. Play a videogame or watch a movie. Seriously. Consider the points he made. Initiative. It is turn 0 in a combat. A combat that lasts 3-8 rounds afterwards, assuming the two sides are evenly matched. He wanted to take away turn 0 from combat, and acted like he solved combat. I did like his idea of average damage, but otherwise it seems like this is just a bit dumb. He also offered little to no alternative that wouldn't be the most predictable fight pattern in the world. Some days a character is ready for anything, other days that character just needs to do his stretches first. And then the pit. I want to crucify him on this pit here, if you want your players to jump over the pit with no consequence, why bother putting a pit there in the first place? What is its point as an obstacle? Just draw a straight line then, no fuss from the dungeon entrance to the boss room. That removes so much of the time spent on things like "traps", "monsters", and "exploring", three of the things that take up so much time. The point of the obstacle is to block you. If it doesn't take any time to bypass an obstacle, it wasn't an obstacle. And then his thing about wanting them to follow one straight path in dialogue. I had apparently forgotten we were writing a book (although my typing would say otherwise). Players have different ideologies, from eachother, between characters, and from their DM. Unless you are doing a very thematic setup with a significant lean towards one playstyle or the other, it should be expected that dialogues deviate and waste time. If you give your players 3 options, but only one of them is correct and you want them to only pick the correct option every time, why bother giving them the other two options? Fundamentally, DnD was not designed for speed. It was designed to be deliberate, descriptive, and creative. And there is no such thing as immediate consistent creativity. The debate of it being slow or not is incredibly moot because it is entirely based on the assumption that we are running on a tight schedule and must make a decision, or everything is high stakes and you must get rid of everything small.

[@Gloriankithsanus]

Battle lines? Okay, you suck Collagen. You suck.

[@carpedm9846]

8:00 So.... he wants the King to emerge from the waters and give laminated paper?

[@perezo27]

I think what Logan said can be summed in one phrase Jacob said "It sounds like you wanna play a videogame" Very little rolling, semi railroad story, and the narrator speeding things up And that just isn't DnD (my opinion, of course)

[@shishoka]

You're right. I played a game where the DM ran the game like Logan. It was a railroad that I jumped into at level 5 with no indication what to prepare for and the Demon Lord I was immediately thrown up against ALWAYS hit me for one-sixth of my hit points and I was dying at a record pace.

[@TheGamingBDGR]

Funnily enough I shared Logan's video with my group then they asked me what in it I agreed with and their response was "yeah that just sounds like a video game, if you start changing core rules then why are you playing DnD?"

[@happythoughts700]

You can change core rules. Just don't do it in a db and boring video game way

[@maj.peppers3332]

@@TheGamingBDGR Can definitely change core rules. I love about 80-90% of 5e's core rulebook. And some stuff I absolutely hate. You can have it both ways

[@betina8734]

unless you're playing Baldur's Gate

[@Scorpious187]

Initiative can make roleplay during combat even more intense. Some of the best roleplay moments in games I've played have been moments in combat where my character had to take their action to save their loved one or best friend or whatever and roleplay a moment with that other character.

[@andreymontag]

THOUSAND OF RATS RUSH AT YOU Wizard: I cast magic hut *party proceeds to spend an hour discussing how to get rid of the rats*

[@WhyYouMadBoi]

I know D&D isn't slow but that upload sechedule is a different story.

[@dawnofjusticeX]

You spitting facts

[@grimgreycastle5141]

Yup

[@kendrickrochelanzot2053]

Someone get a fire extinguisher

[@grimgreycastle5141]

@@kendrickrochelanzot2053 Cause they spittin fire

[@lucapangrazi9217]

Holy shit you fucking killed him dude xD

[@kid14346]

You know... the DM guide has alternate initiative rules. The rules for Mobs of creatures exist. Sorting your abilities by Action, Bonus Action, Interaction, and Reaction speeds shit up to. Honestly it isn't that there are too many rules it is that nobody reads the books beyond Monster stat blocks, and player race/class/background. Read the books and become familiar with stuff and you can speed shit along.

[@michaelroy1631]

also, these back-and-forths are great for me as a DM. hearing different people's suggestions for potential problems and possible solutions helps me consider what I love, and what my players love, about the game, so I can really make the game as much fun for everyone. keep up the good work! (and grats on the wedding)

[@Mediados]

"DnD is slow" I suppose you have never seen a party panicking over a boss?

[@seanellis5410]

It’s now officially undeniable: Jacob is turning into Cody. Response videos and everything.

[@lucapangrazi9217]

Oh shit, the prophecy is true

[@loganreads90]

Except for a hatred for Monks.

[@JohnDoe-lf6kp]

this is the best response video to anything ever, I know that partly you refused to flame him because he is your friend but more response videos need to be like this where you don't necessarily say they are wrong just point out flaws in what they say and argue your side without taking them out of context. Actually politics also needs to be like this.

[@TheCrippledCreeper]

Idk I personally feel like this whole video was just saying "not all groups are that way". You can't definitively say that DND is fast or slow because different people have different standards. The only point made that I think holds up on a more objective look is the initiative roll is fine. He made the point that arguing for an hour is roleplay but missed the point that it is slow.

[@xnaphothex-naut9996]

Omg this is what politics should be

[@norgrimthedwarf6079]

I can imagine them being in different rooms of the same house typing up their scriptsand giving each other dagger eyes. Then going and playing a game togeather

[@zeng6042]

As a first-time DM, I absolutely love the moments my players spend debating and arguing with each other because they used to be so hesitant to role-play

[@BillytheCorgi]

Also gives you the chance to just relax, and they'll never know you have nothing prepared as they roleplay with each other for an hour.

[@amysakalov6915]

"D&D is slow." [Looks at the World of Darkness game they were in that once had a 3 HOUR long single round of combat] hahahahahaha

[@Ajmes]

Whaaa? How do I look this up? I find it hard to believe WoD could take 3 hours for 1 round?

[@amysakalov6915]

​@@Ajmes That specific reference was for the "New" World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness Vampire: The Requiem First Edition. There were, if I'm remembering correctly, 15+ players and just as many NPC retainers. At least half of the Players had relatively high amounts of experience (75 - 100+ experience). Many had all kinds of things that allowed triggered reactions to other people's actions. There was a meeting an site declared an Elysium. One group of Players showed up and attempted to kidnap or kill other others and brought a squad of (as they became jokingly referred to) Herculean Olympian Luchador Ghouls (retainers built under the rules of the time that were basically hyper specialized grapples). Two or three other players stepped out of the room for various reasons and were gone in character for like 5 - 15 minutes or so. About a minute after they exited all hell broke loose. A SINGLE round was resolved before the end of the night was called and the entire scene then had to be resolved over email before the next session would happen weeks later. That said there was also an instance years earlier for World of Darkness/Old World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade where a similar thing happened with way less players, only 5 and like 7 NPCs. It was basically Night of the Three Stooges and happened because older editions of World of Darkness (I don't know about the most recent editions) have a combat system that flows as: Roll dice to hit, determine damage, roll soak, difference between soak total and damage total is damage taken. A D&D equivalent would be if instead of having just AC, you had something like 1d12-1 Damage Resistance or HP Regen. Enemy does 10 damage and you roll 12? They do nothing to you instead. Chronicles has had some similar effects, but they're resulting from other mechanics rather than Soak as Soak was dropped for Chronicles in part to help with how hyper "swingy" combat could become (ie: someone hits you with a truck and you're like, "nah, I'm fine." but Bob hits you with a beer bottle, does the wod equivalent of a Crit, and you fail so hard you're instantly down for the count).

[@kaldo_kaldo]

@@amysakalov6915 5 players and 7 NPCs? Wow. My personal experience between old WOD and 5E with similar numbers of players and enemies is that old WOD was much quicker. Maybe we played oWOD more efficiently than is typical, I dunno I only played with 1 group.

[@benjoe1993]

Spending 1.5 hours arguing in and out of character about how to phrase a question that the DM has to answer because he gave us the Deck of Many Things and one of us pulled that card is still gameplay!

[@thegreatandmightyseff7214]

Until you have to go to sleep and you miss out on the epic boss fight

[@MsWatismyname]

@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 But how hyped would you be for next session :O

[@thegreatandmightyseff7214]

Its in a week

[@MsWatismyname]

@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 Yes the perfect amount of time to build up tention: you get some theories going and will strategise, and then BOOM back in action.

[@benjoe1993]

@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 Hahaha, weekly D&D. Good joke. But yeah a month or two is a pretty long time but talking about the question was great fun and better than any team building exercise ever.

[@Ephidiel]

Didnt know you married Logan already, Grats for the wedding XD

[@skullsquad900]

It really sounds more like Burnout than an actual problem

[@yebrahgamer6932]

Me: Yes Xp to lvl 3: Wait... it is 20 minutes long and it has been posted 2 minutes ago Me: Your point?

[@honooryu5374]

Hol up! Did you use wish or some time spell? Kinda sus man.

[@battery2720]

@@honooryu5374 dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun

[@honooryu5374]

@@battery2720 who are you?

[@yebrahgamer6932]

What are you even saaaaaying

[@battery2720]

@@yebrahgamer6932 me, gamer, or honoo?

[@alansmithee419]

3:40 no see what happens is this: The DM creates a meticulously designed session accounting for all possible decisions the players could make. The players make a different decision. The DM panics for the next 5+ hours as they struggle to bring some sense of normality to the table.

[@superfire6463]

When I was watching Logan's video, I was like “eh, not sure about that one part. But this is genius, dude” Then I watched your video and was immediately like “lol, this Logan guy doesn’t know anything about dnd”

[@Slanderbot]

rolling dice and conversing to figure out our plan is my favorite part of the game :,(

[@jetstreamjackie3437]

Our dads are fighting again

[@battery2720]

for me, when someone says "roll initiative'" i get hyped, but when some one just starts combat, its just not as fun this is just my dumb opinion...

[@Ian_OV]

as a wise man once said: "Clickity Clackity prepare to get attackity"

[@battery2720]

@@Ian_OV wise words from a wise man

[@Ian_OV]

@@battery2720 that wise man is known as JoCrap

[@charliemcdowell5231]

It's interesting, as a player I'm so used to my groups taking ages to decide what to do on their turn. Now, as a new DM with new players, we're absolutely blitzing through turns. I'm talking 15-20 seconds per turn. In 5E. It's nuts, I was sweating from processing initiative order and marking off health on enemies so fast, and my players were still feeling like we should move faster. I'm like guys, I LOVE that we aren't dragging out our turns, but my god, I'm making mistakes that end up hurting you guys because I'm forgetting things. Let's shoot for like, 30 second to 1 minute turns, give me a dang minute to mark the damage you dealt to the enemy lol.

[@SteveAkaDarktimes]

how does your group achieve this unholy speed? all in the groove, thinking ahead, knowing the rules?

[@charliemcdowell5231]

@@SteveAkaDarktimes well, it's a combination of factors. In my experience, more experienced players often actually take longer turns, because they're considering more possible outcomes and weighing the pros and cons of different options, and thinking farther ahead. In the game I'm running as a first time DM, the players are new, so they aren't always striving to make the most optimal choices, and are hungry for action. Furthermore, as a new DM I'm not exactly presenting them with incredibly complex combats because I don't want to overwhelm them; instead I've been slowly ramping things up, adding a new mechanic or feature into the combat here and there. I feel like most turns in most combats should take between 30 seconds to 90 seconds of game time, but exceptions have to be made when there's super hard choices.

[@Tomatowormprince]

"In dungeons and dragons, your choices are permanent." Well that's really DM's fiat.

[@Mirekluk]

No it's not. Just out of context.

[@Artemisthemp]

Knowing the AC also takes the joy of figuring an enemies AC out using other people Hit or Miss

[@RedBannanaProduction]

I love that Jacob's video about why dnd doesn't take too long is literally 4x longer than Logans.

[@gingerinajacket8519]

Jacob was making counterarguments, Logan was talking to a void.

[@All4Tanuki]

Yeah, it takes no time to make a bunch of unsubstantiated points without thinking about the consequences of what you're suggesting.

[@grud8495]

Slow isn't inherently bad. I think Logan is simply more of an impatient person, which I can relate too, at times. And perhaps being a DM isn't the best role for him because of it. A DM has to have A LOT of patience. That being said, Even Matt Mercer pushes on his players to keep the speed in the game and not bog things down too much. Perhaps a good chat with the players can help solve a lot?

[@sirpotatolord2219]

"now guys me and logan are good friends and we dont hate on each other so this is just gonna be me giving my take on these opinions" *Proceeds to blot out the sun with the shade in this video

[@NoForksGiven]

17:27 funnily enough, Baldur's Gate 3, a video game, has all those changes Runesmith asked for. My man predicted how the devs would adapt D&D into a video game environment. We have fixed inititive, you can examine every enemy to know their AC or just look at the giant hit chance above their head, you have a quest journal and map markers to tell you where to go, similiar enemies do take their turns at the same time, in co-op players can attack at the same time. My man Runesmith just wanted to play BG3 and I don't blame him.

[@michaeljurss4861]

I see all DMs are having strokes.

[@LokisLair]

I've found that there are lots of things that slow down play, whether you're a new group, or an experienced one. Personally I think it's better to just let players discuss the scenario for 5 minutes or so, and if they can't come to a decision, let each player vote and let it be decided that way. Having a consensus for players is pretty valuable, especially considering this a cooperative game.

[@ElykTsorb]

I have played with people that make Dungeons and Dragons slow. When you have to drag yourself, to a gamestore, to meet with people, every other week, and only play a game for 2 hours (you know, in the before time) you immediately begin to notice who is taking way too long to do anything. Because instead of moving the plot along you spent an addition 2-5 minutes on X players turn because they couldn't be bothered to think about what they were going to do on their turn in combat, or forgot their abilities, etc. I've played games where the players all keep the pace up by being attentive, reacting when they should, and being prepared. It's wonderful.

[@Viperspider1]

Congrats on the wedding, I hope you and Spencer have long, happy lives with eachother ❤️

[@monsterbash2821]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Also, congrats on tying the knot!

[@LeCanardBelge]

My best memory in D&D was to plan for like 50 minutes about how to trap and ambush the BBEG to prevent a war. Seeing his split in half body crushed by a heavy armor paladin was so satisfying. We ended the campain on that, no war, artifact retrieved, good memories and sick magic loot. The best thing about all this is that it was a huge commit, not planned by the dm but he went along

[@assassincharizard]

"Jacob>Logan." That's a quote from your hot take video and it seemed like a hilariously fitting response to this video. In all seriousness though, you guys are both great.

[@sentineloforder]

yeah, I have to completely agree with both Xp to level 3 and Runesmith's video about the speed of dnd. For 5 months I have Dm'd my first game with some of my closest friends and I often found the game slow when the group had nothing to push them forward or nothing to entertain them story-wise but the moment they learned about an event that happened they literally began to book it to the place of the event cause that is where the story led them to.

[@iSevenGUN]

After watching his video I decided to run the 10+modifier initiative rule and as a DM it saved a lot of time and I thought people liked it, to my surprise the players wanted to go back to the normal initiative rules because they like rolling initiative. If it's not broke don't fix it.

[@Ellebeeby]

Quite simply, people like throwing dice.

[@nickromanthefencer]

@@Ellebeeby exactly! and, if you don't roll to determine turn order, the person with the lowest dex will literally always be last. as someone who plays barbarian (with low dex) a lot, that shit sucks always having to go after literally all my allies.

[@Handles-Suck-YouTube]

Not to mention that it removes almost all unpredictability from the turn order. Combat's a lot more interesting when some fights have the Wizard going first, or the defender followed by every enemy before the other party members, etc etc.

[@trickysmithy9154]

This wasn’t so much of a “you’re wrong” response, but more of a “you’re right, but here’s why it’s okay”

[@sexylazercatwizard]

I personally think Logan was pretty wrong. He doesn't want dnd with his suggestions.

[@dougmcnair3748]

I don't know how you get that, Tricky Smithy.

[@callmefox630]

I think it was "You're wrong, but lemme try and spin that a bit better"

[@ryanbritten6784]

When we roll Initiative it's a 1 monster vs 1 party member roll. That roll determines which side goes first. The party gets 60 seconds at the top of each round if they want to strategise and get a ruling on the effect of a certain spell or whatnot. The team that wins Initiative goes first with 2 players or monsters which is the 1st turn. 2nd turn goes to the other team and so on until you run out of monsters. Players and monsters can act on the team turn of their choice so the party can switch and combo spells and abilities easily. I find it makes combat so much faster.

[@vasalbur]

Man those final seconds were so wholesome and adorable and made me happy

[@Gingerskittles]

I'm sure some people enjoy him, but if this is how he runs games, it doesn't seem like I would enjoy Logan as a DM. I don't think he's actively trying to do anything to ruin the game, but it seems (even from his own videos) like he's just a very smart guy who overthinks the game, or maybe even just gets bored by it. So he tries to tinker with it too much to fix problems that aren't there.

[@andrewlentner]

In the campaign he DM'd on Arcane Arcade (Teseract) I don't think he did many of these things. From his videos and what he does in the campaigns he plays in he just seems a bit bored at times, and then over thought how to speed up the system of DnD so he was never bored again lol

[@wapowman]

Honestly I’m totally on your side when it comes to the PCs talking. I’ve just run a session and a whole ton of it was bickering and discussing plans. As long as it took, it was also interesting to see what my players thought. But I do think that unless things are actually hitting, D&D combat is pretty slow. The party spent a full 15 mins just launching attack after attack towards a dwarf in a corner. There wasn’t much else to do, just roll. While there isn’t a clear or easy way around it you gotta admit, it can definitely be boring.

[@ExatedWarrior]

I've done the a variant of the rule where players act at the same time and it works great. If anyone on the same team is next to each other, they take their turns together. If there are any disagreements on strategy or order, the higher initiative player still gets to act first. You'd think it would be people talking over each other, but they actually coordinate really well, especially when it's not the whole table. This is all technically within the rules, but at least players never take advantage of these rules unless I implement this since when you hand someone the mic on their turn they don't really care or understand how to work with other players.

[@ElChachoBorracho]

I thought DnD was about... FIREBALL!

[@fishhead1137]

Also dnd isn't really about doing a lot in a session I've had sessions that my players did absolutely nothing or I've done absolutely nothing as a player and yet my players or myself still had plenty of fun so yeah it doesn't need to be fast

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Homebrew mob combat rule Determine what % of the mob will hit/miss, then only roll those in initiative Aka: "3 monster hits/actions per round for this combat" 12 goblins, say only 25% of them will hit, so roll 4 goblins into the initiative order. It can be a different goblin each time. But thats how many times a goblin will be able to attempt or succeed an attack roll.

[@TuffBaddi]

I like these longer, more serious commentaries. I'd like to see more discussions about divisive topics. Some examples off the top of my head: strength seems to arguably be the worst stat. Encumbrance rules, etc?

[@BadBomb555]

I guess Runesmith seems to be more like an impatient type of D&D Player/DM.

[@fx232]

D&D feels slow because people in the party can't stay off their phones, pay attention, they need a recap of the last 40 seconds, don't have any ideo what they're going to do in combat until it's their turn, takes a long time deciding what simple response they're going to say, and rules lawyers trying to prove the DM wrong and the inevitable argument that ensues about how the game is supposed to be played. I've played sessions where it feels really fast, fast, and flows well, and I've also played other sessions where the story went nowhere and what took 3 hours could've been done in 25 minutes.

[@maxime2445]

Honestly I like knowing the ac. Because then you don't have to ask if you Hit. Then you can describe how you attack.

[@ventusvindictus]

The part about the combat reminds me of my first big mistake as a dungeon master. 17 yetis.

[@darkdragon1002]

One thing to speed up initiative I do is at the start of a dungeon I have the party roll initiate and use that for the rest of that dungeon. change it up if you start a new floor, less time rolling initiate more time killing monsters and finding traps

[@UponGiantsShoulders]

It really helps as a DM to do two things.... first spend plenty of time not only explaining the setting in general terms, but giving SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL, knowledge of the world to each player. 2nd. Keep providing this individualized knowledge and make clear when just one player knows this thing. They get to choose to share it with the party or not and how they shape the interaction. It also reminds your players they can ask these kinds of questions to the DM about what their character might know or think or suspect and where it resolves to an X factor, roll di if you as the DM can offer some information that enriches the game. Reward players who are being creative in asking the right kinds of questions that push the plot forward. Also, reward them in other ways, extra XP, magical items, etc.

[@fireknight4151]

I agree with you alot Jacob and I see some value in what both of you say. This unlike many other videos feel like authentic Critism and not just making controversy to get views

[@jamesbg314]

Authentic criticism to get views. Can't wait for a response response video because i like berating these guys talk.

[@thelaughingstormbornagain1297]

There's so much storytelling potential in dice rolls specifically with initiative. Having a DM explain why the fastest person on the team wasn't the quickest in that moment or why the slowest just happened to be first on the scene. The dice determine the storytelling in so many occasions I would hate to lessen that experience. By just deciding it as a GM.

[@marekstruhar5574]

I just recently discovered this channel and I absolutely love it. Question - is Logan still part of XPtL3 band, or did something happened between them two?

[@inakiiribarrenlineros8594]

DnD is actually really slow and overcomplicated at times, specially rules wise. Trpg's will always take longer than films and such, and it's part of their charm. Choices matter, and good players that love the game make it instantly fun, even if they take forever to do stuff (also, just use group initiative with players being able to act at the same time, it's simpler, more tactical and allows creativity)

[@thegreatandmightyseff7214]

I agree with this. My group is full of people with completely different sleep schedules than me, so the games always begin with a 3 hour talk about where to go and end with me having to go to sleep when its not even my turn in combat

[@flyingturret208thecannon5]

My DM and I in our two campaigns allow turn combos. I do it in a way that helps expedite turns, since I already knew how I’d help the player, I just get them to delay their turn so I can do my action on them. That’s how we imitated the Meet the Medic video.

[@solarknight3942]

>Me who has combats where I have 10 different enemy stablocks, usually only 2 or 3 similar enemies. I have been trying a system for players rolling initiative at the very start of the campaign and that does as I put initiatives for all enemies before they appear, and I also have new enemies appear during combat and/or have summons which means not every one of my MANY statblocks are active at once. I’ve only been improving in my implementations of large combats where the players are skirmishing against large pools of intelligent enemies and everyone really loves it… for MY group. I can see why someone would hate that or just be so bored by it but if it works for my campaign and players then ye it fun.

[@grosslittlegoblin1358]

Try Dungeon World No initiative, no turns just the player describe what they want to achieve, they roll to determine if its success, partial success or failure. Then you narrate what happens.

[@apothekerrie]

My main thought during this whole video: Does Runesmith even want to be playing D&D? lol

[@godzilla660]

i horribly failed a grapple check while playing a goblin after punching an orc in the nuts. "you caress his groin as you punch him. It adds insult to injury. He makes a morale save."

[@derdampfgeist6210]

Just Yesterday. There was a vitrine on a base with a magic item within my players wanted. They successfully found and disabled one alarm and a trap securing those goodies. This took maybe 2 minutes including rolling. And then they had spend over 10min in discussing how to remove the vitrine. Should we push it...should we lift it...should we just smash it...can we remove the base and let the vitrine float. It was just hilarious. It was fun and just suited the people I played with. Besides that, both have a point. There is a fine balance to be found between complexity and automation and every group should find the optimal rules in achieving this. For me it worked perfectly to just talk with the people I play with about issues I have, see if they share it and then we try stuff to fix it and quite often we go back to normal.

[@justanotherfan52]

XP to level 3 absolutely obliterates Runesmith with FaCtS AnD LoGiC!

[@FaustoPego]

"We're not fighting, son" "JEEZ LOGAN, WAY TO SLOW THE GAME HUH NOW YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE ME PREPARE ENCOUNTERS?!" XD U guys are cute

[@noraarcadia635]

In terms of initiatove, something cool that I've seen are the currebtly known rules for Bunkers and Badasses (yes, based on the Borderlands DLC. Roll with me). Basically, enemies don't get initiative rolls. Players do, but enemies and npcs appear to have their initiative 'roll' printed on the statblock.

[@imanard3593]

I have a different combat roll system. All the players add thair dex mods together and make 1 roll. Same for the enemies. This is a good system because of this scenario. 1: fighter swings his sword at troll 2: cleric blesses fighter With my new system it can go like this 1: fighter hits troll 2: before he rolls cleric blesses him so he get +1d4 to the attack.

[@Antholography]

While I generally agree that your approach with Ready and Help exist - Ready is a very punishing mechanic. It's not like the old "delay" from systems of yesteryear Ready means that Martial Characters lose their extra attacks, can't move, etc. It also means that spellcasters can't concentrate on any other spells. All in all - ready is a bad compromise version of "Delay"

[@noahtackett6264]

Congrats on the marriage man! Also I kinda see Logan's suggestions for easing new players into D and D. Okay the predetermined initiative and knowing AC automatically. Maybe trying to move the story along in some circumstances. After that idk maybe slowly add things into the regular gameplay until it's a regular D and D game.

[@ShikiRen]

All I'm saying is, if my players ever again take 2-3 hours to decide a plan to get past a single CR3 assassin vine over a small bridge when they are a 5 man CL2 Gestalt party... I'm going to have a manticore chase them over that bridge. But yes I usually like when the players come up with stuff.

[@broke_af_games9661]

hey, Congratulations on the wedding dude. now that being said: whoa there bud, retract the claws :P haha. seriously solid rebuttal....now I got to see his video in full

[@enbyfabulosity2521]

I have a bit of a solution for the whole "combat having too many actors" thing. So, essentially, if they're all similar enemies, like, same attack power, race, AC, etc. You can just combine them into a horde of enemies. There's still all 50 goblins you wanted to attack the party, but now you can control them as one being, making the fight much easier to manage! It only has one initiative instead of 50, and when it's damaged, you can describe how, instead of stabbing someone making them bleed, you cut three of the goblin's heads off!

[@DerDarkfire1]

That's actually funny. The following is just my opinion, so keep that in mind: Here in Germany (greetings by the way!), the 2 most played pen&paper games are DnD and something called "Das schwarze Auge" (DSA for short), the translation would be "the black eye". And the two are exactly how you would imagine them to be. DnD is like America, wild, fast and straight to the point. It's base line is also easy to access. DSA on the other hand is straight up german bureaucracy . You know, we Germans love old paper so much, we still breed racing pigeons. To get into DSA, you have to read like 2-3 times as much as DnD for the base line. If you want to get the knowledge of all the rules, I imagine there are like 20+ books just on rules! I first started my pen&paper life with DSA, but exchanged it with DnD after a few years in which I didn't got to play much anyway. And hell yes, DnD is so much faster! As far as I understood, there was also a new edition for DSA, but I don't care at this point, because I love DnD now and think it's way more fun! Thanks for the video Jakob, I really like you and your content! I'll check out your other videos, too!