Yacht Navigation - how to be safe in the digital world

[@RichMac46]

My statement that the RYA is not teaching digital navigation is not correct, my apologies. After being negative about gps for 25 years, they have finally announced a digital navigation package for 2020. This is really good news, as it will enable them to give training on the navigation devices that most of us use.

[@charlesbrewer6552]

Your video is very interesting. I am 70 years old, I have raced competitivly since I was 10 years old, I have sailed extensivly off the Austrailan East Coast waters. I qualified as an Australian Yachtmaster in 1992 with an Offshore instructor rating. I worked as a Sailing instructor teaching basic sailing, basic navigation, offshore navigation, cruising skills, basic racing skills and advanced racing skills up to skippering trainee crews at National level Chanpionships with creditible results for over 20 years. I have held a Commercial Pilots Licence as an Instructor with Instrument qualifications. As well as extensivly navigating my own vessel, I have served as a navigator on several Sydney Hobart races, including 1993, which up until the 1998 race saw the most deaths and sinkings of any race prior to that. I don't sail in offshore races any more. The 1993 race was enought for me. IT was not so much the conditions, it was the attitudes of the typical crew I was sailing with. In the 1992 race and the 1993 race the yachts had recently beeen fitted with the "new" GPS systems. For some reason the owners decided that they should be moved from the NAV station to the Cockpit! In both situations it was stated that they wanted a "working navigator", which I was. Serving as a helmsman and a trimmer, as well as a "Sailmaker" when I was sewing damaged sails together while off watch! (I was working in my brothers sail loft at the time). This attitude made my job increadibly more difficult! The position of navigator has been downgraded in the eyes of many owners, they think that having a GPS in the cocpit will fix all their problems. What BULLSHIT! In the 1992 race the GPS went off air for 10 hours. There was a compulsory position report due, "How do we know where we are?" they asked. Simple, ask the helmsman "what course hacve you been steering?", How long since the last recorded poaition, "What speed have we been doing?", back to DR navigation! I pulled out chart computed the numbers and marked a position. "You don't know we are there!" they said. "You don't know we are not there", I replyed. OIf course the GPS came back and we were a few miles from the estimated position! THe blind faith n the magic box, mounted in the cockpit for "would be" navigators to interpret is dangerous! The role of Navigator is as important as it ever has been. Simply having a GPS in the cockpit does NOT fix the problem of basic navigation. The role of the Navigator and the instruments vital to Navigation belong in the NAV Station. Have a repeater in the cockpit if you want but don't kid yourself that that is NAVIGATION! There is a LOT more to it than that!

[@RichMac46]

Thanks Charles for engaging with the video, and your detailed reply. You made some very good points. I absolutely agree with the importance of navigation, the safe passage of the ship is the ultimate responsibility of the skipper or navigator, that’s why I made the video. You are right to say that the art of navigation has been downgraded by modern systems, people don’t take it seriously enough. But I don’t agree with focussing all the responsibility on a single person, at a nav station down below. It’s absurd that the Clipper boats, with 10 intelligent crew, should sail onto a beach because the navigator is asleep, and there’s no instruments on deck. The helmsman should be able to see where he’s going, all it takes is simple instrumentation and a little instruction. On my yacht, the person at the helm takes total responsibility for our safe passage, they have to have the instruments and skills for that. They also have to be aware of their limits, and when to ask for help. Most navigation accidents these days are due to carelessness, and we are all guilty of that. As regards the reliability of GPS, my sextant is still in its box unused for 35 years, but you never know!

[@neilwynne463]

More please, on anything sailing, probably the most informative video I have come across.

[@peterhubertus]

When I decided for a chart plotter, I asked friend sailors, where to put it in the pilot house of my motor cutter: Either on the large chart space right in front of the steering wheel or on another place aside, leaving the entire paper chart space for paper charts. I decided against the recommendation "right in front of the steering wheel, because you don´t need paper charts any longer". I am still happy with my decision. Richard, thank you very much for your sharing your solid know how. Subscribed!

[@samaipata4756]

Well if he sounds like a Captain, acts like a Captain and sails like a Captain HECK HE MUST BE A CAPTAIN! As a retired bush pilot who flew when we still used celestial navigation in the Arctic and found white spots on the map flying across jungle in South America, I can assure what you are saying has been and still is a fact in aviation too. Your videos are of great educational value, thank you CAPTAIN! After parting now from my last aircraft, I look forward to hopefully roam the Meds on a sailboat, sometime soon.

[@BlackheartCharlie]

Great video - thank you! I've experienced chart offset sailing in the Bahamas. We eyeballed our way into one harbor and were amused to see our track on the chartplotter showing us crossing about 200 yards inland, behind the town, then into the anchorage. Whenever possible, I try to follow the teachings of my sailing mentor and not trust only one source of information. Best regards from Key West, Capt. Blackheart Charlie "It's not the ocean that's dangerous, it's the hard crusty bits around the edges that cause problems."

[@RichMac46]

Thanks for your comment, you’re right about the crusty bits! The chart offset problem is much less common now, Navionics is correcting their shoreline to match satellite imagery. Because most positions are so accurate, it’s easy to get a false sense of security. Rocks and small islands can still be up to half a mile out of position, because they have never been corrected. Always give hazards a wide berth, unless you can eyeball them clearly. Also, if your chart plotter show you going over a hill to get into a bay, remember to cross the same hill if you need to get out in the night!

[@laurencevanhelsuwe3052]

Excellent video. The nearest thing to an Air Crash Investigation episode for boaties. Wish more accident analysis videos existed like this.. super learning material.

[@6r4metroman]

Very clear and precise, thank you. I use Navionics as a guide to my destination but never use it blindly :-)

[@vicg5323]

Totally agree. Must have two person control on nav prep and execution. Backup systems a must and old school training is required to validate what is digitally presented. Always update charts with the latest notice to Mariners.

[@nucopia]

I am looking at buying my first sail boat in the very near future and looking at a few boats as I write. Its been 30 years since I last sailed and many advances have been made over that time, so one of the most important considerations I was looking at was navigation equipment. Your video has been very helpful and given me much to think about. Thanks its very much , it is most appreciated ..cheers Bryan

[@poblanomanu2b]

Nucopia I could have written the exact same reply, right down to the 30 years. Well done! Maybe I’ll see you out there in a few years. Cheers. Dan

[@bophoto]

LOL Nucopia - +1 to exactly this. 30 years, picking out iPads and picked up a 30foot boat for now.

[@pangrac1]

This is probably the best video about sea traveling I have ever seen. Here should everybody start before he/she will buy a boat or sail anywhere or step on board. 👍👌

[@It-b-Blair]

Wow! You seem like a fount of knowledge! Your audio is clear and well timed. Thank you for the two sailing videos 👍👍 there’s a whole bunch of us looking to soak in this kind of wisdom, if you find time to make more 😉🙏 great gratitude, happy sailing 👋👋

[@dahveed284]

Great video. It’s important to learn from other’s failures.

[@hereintranzit]

Give wide, wide berths (6+ miles, even 20+ miles where large corral reef expansions are expected) to all obstacles while transiting around them in a long ocean passage. Time your approach and arrival at your destination properly, in daylight and consult weather forecasts for the most opportune conditions and constantly navigate, both by instruments and visually. A day or two longer on passage it’s allot better than having your vessel ripped apart and hung on the rocks ! Do your costal cruising and island hopping during daylight as much as possible, or time the departures and arrivals during daylight and in good weather. If you’re cruising you’ve got to remember that cruising is not racing !

[@bill2292]

Well done Sir! One of the best videos on modern navigation I've seen.

[@WaguihSiag]

I always use two different two chart plotter , one I zoom in with it and the second to give an overall pictures.

[@edsedlak6827]

We have used Navionics on Lake Ontario for 5 years now and never had an issue. It takes us where we want to go, every time. In spite of this, we also use paper charts to confirm our routes and position. It never pays to become complacent.

[@Devo491]

Great vids, Richard. Your attention to safety is Sailing 101. Keep well clear of the rocks indeed!

[@namechamps]

One small terminology correction. There is only one GPS. GPS was the first GNSS (global navigation satellite system) today there are four GNSS and many GNSS receivers can receive signals from multiple systems.

[@berniewong7983]

Awesome video!!! Please keep them coming!!!

[@ExpatMoe]

Great video. Important topic. Backup devices, alternative charts, always navigate.

[@peterebel7899]

Not to forget redundancy with alternative methods of navigation. And the tip more than one person navigating is more than just helpful!

[@igorsimac391]

Thank you for your vital advice, wil keep you in my heart while sailing.

[@learnfix5725]

Thank you for an excellent video. Lots of food for thought.

[@thekiteboatparty3568]

what great video! thank you very much!! 37yo kiteboater from new zealand 🇳🇿

[@TheHopper69]

great videos and information. its very interesting to hear about the issues that the professional racers experience.

[@mikkov5987]

Excellent video, I really appreciate the real life examples and the great experience, which you are sharing. Many thanks!

[@slomaj]

Richard we found navionics quite receptive when we found some error at Pemba island on the charts. We gave them the corrections and 2 weeks later with the updates the charts were corrected. Instead of people complaining about errors why do they not document them and send them in. As you say some charts were surveyed years ago and were digitized correct but in errors that were on the charts

[@RichMac46]

Thanks for your comment, Navionics are good, I’ve sent in a few updates. Their accuracy is improving all the time. But there are still plenty of small islands and reefs in far-away places that are out of position in the wide-scale charts, a trap for those who don’t bother to zoom in!

[@TannhauserGate]

Great useful content for the uninitiated that I can hope to one day be able to use. Please continue making videos for tips, procedures and best practices for sailing blue water and otherwise. Cheers.

[@peterhyde1411]

Great video Rich, Should be mandatory as part of the RST.

[@donnakawana]

Again this is why I subscribed. Your brilliant to learn from because you just say it without complication... Thanks your also very inspiring ppl you an your wife!Fare winds an following sea's✌🏻💗☺️❣️

[@davidpower2406]

As you said in the video and I reiterate forcefully PLEASE LOOK OUT OF THE WINDOW all the time. Navigation is only one of your possible hazards. Good Video. I have also anchored in the car park of a hotel over a mile away according to the plotter!!!!! David Power

[@RichMac46]

Thanks David. In the old traditional navigation days we were stuck at the chart table with no windows. Now I do all my navigating on deck, and can use the all-important Mk 1 eyeball at the same time!

[@yerrie1908]

My inexperienced family crew always think I take it to serious, that I check the charts continuously, I let my brother sail to a bay and I knew with the sails on starboard he would not see the rock 2nm from the coast and I knew he would not have the right zoom on the plotter, waited with warning him and taking over just 200 meters from the rock, the shock was big and he was frozen for minutes, he now listens to his younger brother

[@rahnlawson9463]

thanks for posting this

[@grf1426]

So pleased to have found this Can't believe in this day and age there are still inaccurate charts. I wouldn't drive my car without Sat Nav And good use for old phones

[@petem6354]

"Can't believe in this day and age there are still inaccurate charts." Why not? Marine surveying is very labour intensive and a slow process. So yes, tons of paper charts, especially for less navigated areas, are inaccurate or out of date. Some are still based on lead line depth surveys too. And don't forget that Navionics uses many of these charts so can also be inaccurate.

[@charonstyxferryman]

*You* : "Can't believe in this day and age there are still inaccurate charts." The Danish Maritime Authority has issued warnings about why one should be skeptical of digital charts, and paper charts as well. The Danish island of Anholt was mapped around 150 years ago, and the charts had never been verified ever since. *You* : "I wouldn't drive my car without Sat Nav* Car navigation is very simple compared to navigation on the sea. A chart plotter is also *much* more advanced than any car nav system. *You* : "And good use for old phones" One use primary marine VHF on the sea. I somehow think that you're a landlubber (i.e. a person unfamiliar with the sea or sailing.)

[@grf1426]

@@charonstyxferryman " a person unfamiliar with the sea or sailing." - So I can't have an opinion? It is inexcusable that charts continue to be inaccurate after three hundred years Three hundred years

[@TheByard]

Spoke with a new skipper at the marina and he asked me to check hit sailing plan. He had used a way point list and had loaded them into the plotter. I asked him if he really wanted to hit all the buoys or just go around them. It took him a few seconds to realize his mistake. I used the previous track to make my way up the River Medway in a thick fog, with crew on deck looking for obstacles'. We made onto the mooring no bother.

[@RichMac46]

A friend was navigator on a racing yacht in the early days of GPS. He plotted their turning mark, a pylon called the ‘Windmill’, which had a wind powered light, His navigation was spot-on, they hit the mark, and the wind turbine chewed up their spinnaker, a real mess!

[@drjohnashfield3915]

Very instructive. I hope you'll do many more of these.

[@tedthesailor172]

Very informative, entertaining and good humoured stuff...Thanks for sharing.

[@jeffmatulich6857]

Three types of sailors......those that have run aground. Those that are going to run aground and those who lie about when they have run aground.

[@johngoncalves]

Exceptional advice. Thank you.

[@chhindz]

I sailed into Solomons Maryland, after anchor reviewed my track on Navionics and it showed me sailing right through the middle of several marina docks, I had noticed it showing marks off their proper location when coming in. I was also using hand held Garmin, believe it was working correct then,

[@nicolausjanas4348]

Some good advice, thank you!

[@brucemcnair2]

Wonderful vid. Many thanks. I’m hungry for more. 😄👍

[@darioalonso8470]

Thank you, very interesting tips.

[@wanagiandme]

Awesome Videos thanks for sharing your experience!!!

[@NaptownPete]

Well presented, and certainly your experience with operational risk management and situational awareness is of great advice to anyone from highly experience (over confident) to the newbie. Cheers from Annapolis.

[@videosforcatsanddogs214]

What material would be best for surviving a reef grounding if weight is important and money is no object? I was thinking carbon fiber construction of most of the vessel with a sacrificial bottom plating of either aluminum or UHMWPE or both.

[@MrCyberdude]

Great stuff Richard

[@redreuben5260]

When yachts first got satnav they didn’t have the military precision they have now, groundings were called “SAG’s, Satellite Assisted Groundings. 😃 stay safe.

[@RichMac46]

The original ‘Sat Nav’ wasn’t so good, but even the earliest GPS systems were much more accurate than the charts. My first GPS was maybe 100m precision, but I managed to hit a rock that was charted 1.5 miles out of position. A good learning experience of the dangers of relying on one instrument. Fortunately the only damage was to my pride!

[@Larry21924]

Marvelous execution; it's reflective of a book I read that was similarly profound. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Various Authors

[@Dave-SailsAway]

Great primer. Thank you!

[@hughsmith4464]

Good point about the dimmer.

[@HansMueller661]

Very well explained, thanks!

[@be_jojclass4903]

Love this content... thank you sir....see you in indonesia

[@youtoo2466]

Great videos

[@2222johnharris]

Some great information, thank you!

[@RHP-pw8xt]

Nice vdeo many thanks. Please make more!

[@markpeters9332]

Excellent video, thanks

[@williambunting803]

Thanks so much for that Richard. A lot there for follow up study. A while ago, I wondered if there was a Sextant App, and surprise surprise there are a few. Have you tried one of these? Does it have all of the information aboard to navigate by?

[@RichMac46]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, there’s certainly ways to make sight reductions easier, but why bother with an app when your device knows exactly where it is anyway. Celestial navigation is a fascinating subject, definitely worth pursuing. A Sun-sight can’t fix your position, you need 2 or more over the day, with careful course-keeping in between, and a good estimated position to start with. I suggest you study the whole process, and see how it was done, from the early explorer times to only 30 years ago. I was doing it, but not very well! Earlier this year I sailed from Sydney to Perth across the bottom, we had a young lad with all the RYA training. On their offshore trips, their celestial navigation was up to 20 miles out. He was very glad of our Chartplotter while dodging the many reefs and islands off the south coast.

[@williambunting803]

@@RichMac46 HI Richard, I was more intrigued at how much of the sun and star sighting process can be done with a modern phone. Technically everything, in fact if there was a special fish eye lens attached it could just sit in one position on the boat and take all of the sights regularly, as it knows where the stars and moon should be, can take glimpse sights on the sun as it becomes available, it knows where the horizon is continuously, and with a NMEA connection can do a pretty good inertial dead reconning position following. Is there a reason to do this? Virtually none other than that Russia is blocking and spoofing GPS data in the Ukraine area,…….but they even blocked GPS for a large part of Poland recently probably to test their capability and send a message to the West. Aircraft flying into Ukraine have to rely on their inertial navigation system and be constantly alert to the risk of false GPS data. The sextant apps are something to do on those long passages when you’ve run out of podcasts to occupy ones mind. IMO.

[@phf3238]

Wonderful information. What size iPads are you using?

[@alpha1967]

Amazing. So useful. Thank you.

[@kylesbrockassiengmentchann5875]

Great video, thank you!

[@rhor2743]

Love your Attitude !! Thanks for your great Advice !! New Sub #912 CHEERS ;)

[@78779]

Every modern airliner navigates using GNSS of which GPS is but one constellation. It’s very sophisticated with the use of a readout called ANP (actual navigation performance) that indicate a 95% probability of being within a position often seen at .02. Which means the aircraft’s position is within .02 nm radius (37 metres) of the GNSS position shown. This is at 500 knots. Another algorithm used for integrity monitoring is called RAIM. Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring. Why these technologies haven’t been incorporated into marine applications for smaller craft I’m not sure. I could be mistaken but marine small craft applications and theory are often incorrect and not based on fact but old theories that are redundant.

[@RichMac46]

Many thanks for your comment. From my experience most marine devices give good accuracy, but it’s important to have more than one. The problem is the charts, it’s much harder to survey underwater than on land, and a lot of charts were surveyed before gps. I’m also a private pilot, and well aware of navigation problems, you can’t just anchor when you get lost! In Australia we now have Ozrunways, which is a fantastic package, we can now legally fly without any paper maps or books, provided we have at least 2 devices. Not everyone agrees, but I think it’s made light aircraft flying much safer, particularly for the long distances we have in Aus.

[@eccentricity00]

this was really thorough

[@darioalonso8470]

Never blindly, never only one source of infomation. The mistakes and lack precisions exists, and they are waiting for us. 🤔

[@robertpeterson1137]

That was very helpful. Thanks!

[@MaxTennant]

Hi Richard, have you found other chats that are more accurate than Navionics? What about C-MAP or some of the others. Raymarine just announced that they will soon release Lighthouse Charts for Australia. I use Navionics for my dive trips and are totally dependent on the depth sonar to find locations because even in very popular seaways and Navionics boats 1,000s of daily updates, they are always wrong by at least metres. Also - you didn't mention depth sonar as a navigation point, do you use it sailing? Really good video - thank you for sharing!!!

[@RichMac46]

Hi Max. I only have experience with C-Map, then Navionics, which is much better with community input. I’ve got them to move a couple of islands which were out of position. Hopefully one day, all our sonar readings will be uploaded in real time, so the popular areas will be really well mapped. In contrast, a few years ago I sailed the Great Australian Bight with a friend. He was using a beautifully hand drawn chart of the Bight, it turned out it was copied from Matthew Flinders’ chart from 1801, with all his original soundings. Fortunately Australia hasn’t moved much since then!

[@markleyg]

Good presentation.

[@mikekramer7737]

Do you have a checklist for new crew / visitors on board. Just saw a clip where the captain got shot and the crew did not know how to use the radio. It would be good to have a best practice list of what to explain before you cast off, what can be told underway and what should be practiced. Thanks.

[@RichMac46]

Hi Mike. I’m not very formal on our yacht, and I’m normally sailing with experienced people. So, I’m sorry to say I don’t do a full briefing like I should. I’m not likely to get shot, much more likely to fall overboard or get incapacitated. So I really focus on explaining the autopilot, chart plotter and MOB procedures. It’s much more enjoyable for the crew/friends if the skipper teaches them how to handle the yacht themselves, and it could save my life one day!

[@ajmalmian3653]

Great video. Thanks

[@jaylangham1647]

Great video many thanks 😀

[@hectatusbreakfastus6106]

I'm really interested in getting into sailing, what I'm afraid of is being in a man overboard situation in rough seas since I'd be sailing with my wife and son.

[@RichMac46]

Go for it, don’t hold back! Yes, there are risks with everything, just learn to manage them. My wife and I often discuss man overboard. Firstly, don’t fall overboard, the greatest risk is in mild conditions when you’re a bit careless. The most likely person to fall is yourself, as you are probably the one doing things on deck. So your rescue is dependant on your crew. It’s vital that somebody else is capable of sailing the yacht, knows how to quickly furl the sails and get the boat under control. Also how to quickly throw the lifebuoy and set the MOB alarm. Also discuss, and practice the method of circling to pick up a person, and the best way to get them aboard. It’s vital that your wife and or son can handle the boat. If you take the time to prepare for MOB you can relax and sail together with a lot more confidence and enjoyment.

[@hectatusbreakfastus6106]

@@RichMac46 I appreciate your reply. I'm leaning towards a catamaran. It would be good to have a durable ship in case I do run into a reef someday. Wouldn't want to tear a hole in the hull while off shore.

[@nickmn6108]

Really good video. So sensible having three devices. I have a silly question. If a hendheld gps were one of the devices would it be accurate in the middle of the Atlantic or middle of the Pacific?

[@RichMac46]

Yes, an simple handheld GPS would be very accurate. But if it only reads out Lat and Long numbers, you need some form of chart to fix your position. If you do know the Lat and Long of your destination, your handheld device will get you there.

[@nickmn6108]

Thank you. So I assume in the middle of the Atlantic the handheld operates from the satellites signals orbiting the earth?

[@RichMac46]

@@nickmn6108 Yes, that’s pure GPS, works everywhere. Your phone normally uses assisted GPS, which uses mobile signals to give a quicker fix. If out of range, it’ll just use the satellites, which may take a while.

[@nickmn6108]

@@RichMac46 Thank you. Just one more question :). What is the advantage of an installed chart plotter over a handheld gps or navionics on a cellular ipad?

[@RichMac46]

@@nickmn6108 the installed chart plotter has more uses than navigation, it may have wind, depth, autopilot controls etc. it’s generally the focus of your electronics system. On our boat we do most of our navigating on the iPad because it’s clearer and easier, but I use the plotter as well, good to have both!

[@royawatchmenonthewall3091]

Wonderful thank you

[@MyTube4Utoo]

Great video!!

[@silverado347]

Good job!!

[@alpgurpinar7285]

Very useful, thanks....

[@nhallama]

Good video !

[@michaelhughes7458]

Thanks Richard an interesting talk on navigation and the vessel the Andruth apologies for spelling I learned to scuba dive on her in the years 71 /72 with the British sub aqua club a short time latter I began a career as I commercial diver and met George Wookey who told me how he sailed to Australia in this vessel and ex commercial diver who was diving from her off Rottnest in deep water using hard hat diving equipment unfortunately the South West wind came in early very strong and during decompression the vessel was heaving up and down violently and his helmet was actually bashing against the hull in the end the deck crew decided to bring him out the water causing him a spine bend stopping his diving carrier his name was Jack ? he carried on working with the company as an engineer and diving supervisor. Keep up you postings there very interesting.

[@RichMac46]

The boat was the Anne Judith, owned at the time (early ‘70s) by Des Piesse. We were returning from the Abrolhos in a severe gale, with a group of divers. Des was scared to go too far offshore, so we came down 5 to 10 miles offshore, where the bottom shelves and the swell was biggest. Then some helpful person opened both chart room doors, and all the charts were gone. Fortunately we were heading for Freo, so it was easy. The Anne Judith is still going, she is doing charters in the Java Sea, look her up.

[@michaelhughes7458]

Thanks Richard great to hear she’s still working 👍🍻

[@crapisnice]

THERE'S ALREADY REPAIRABLE, AFFORDABLE AND CUSTOMIZABLE OPENCPN WITH SIGNAL-K WITH OPEN HARDWARE AS PYPILOT, PI-CAN NEMEA BOARD AND DIY SENSORS (WIND, REPTH, ETC) BESIDES Open Boat Projects

[@imagine9033]

Thanks a lot.

[@arunasgrubliauskas6961]

Thank You.

[@juliosaa]

good one ! thanks1

[@srupp9271]

Great !

[@review6908]

Never go to sea in a glass bottom boat.

[@seanobrien8385]

Smart man

[@adilsonlegalyt9647]

Great

[@gulag8735]

Get a paper chart of the area. Simple.

[@charonstyxferryman]

... or (*and* is better) remember to zoom in on the chart - and follow the course all the way to the destination.

[@mikefreauf6192]

I totally agree - I sail by my chart plotter - but have paper charts for every area I venture into, and am always cross checking. I never want to have to use my insurance :)

[@gulag8735]

@@mikefreauf6192 exactly. Its the same in industry. Theres this modern propensity to make everything thing "electronic". If you hand a guy a paper drawing now they look back as if you hand them a flint tool to skin an elk.

[@koa818]

Need to used international GPS Systems

[@brianmbugua8933]

I saw Brady Trautman senor Brady .. @svdelos

[@suz.49]

P