YES, Joseph Smith Married a 14 YEAR OLD!

[@angelamurphy9472]

Heber C Kimball, Helen’s father, already had entered into plural marriage himself. After reading her personal journals, available in the Special Collections section at the University of Utah Marriott Library, she was expected to live as a married woman. She complained in her journal that she couldn’t go with her friends to any of the dances in Nauvoo. As always the LDS spin-docs are hard at work. Great video NEMO!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Cheers, and thanks for the additional info!

[@henochparks]

Helen Mar Kimbell wa one of the leading promoters of Plural marriage until the fay she died. Best tell the rest of the story.

[@scottbrandon9390]

They say that 14 was an average age to marry, but this is not true. It was out of the ordinary in the 1830s and 1840s. Historians who have analyzed marriage records from that time period in America shows the average age for females was 20, and the average for males was 22.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

How many men over 35 married teenage girls?

[@OuttaMyMind911]

Did an angel with a drawn sword tell Joseph that slavery was wrong and to help rid the country of that evil? No. Did an angel with a drawn sword warn Joseph to not let the Church be foolish in the near future by not allowing a vast group of humanity the blessings of priesthood and temple rights just because of the way they look? Nope. Did an angel with a drawn sword give Joseph knowledge of a new medical advancement that could alleviate pain or save lives? No. What did an angel with a drawn sword tell Joseph to do? I guess we know what's important now, don't we.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Yeah, unfortunately!

[@Bob-fh3yk]

The angel with a drawn sword never happened. Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. Brigham Young framed Joseph Smith and put all the blame on him. It was Brigham Young all along that was the polygamist and he did it behind Joseph's back. If you look at Joseph's sermons. He fought polygamy fiercely till the day he died. It's Brigham Young's dirty secret that he got away with. Brighamites have adopted his false teachings and his "Celestial marriage" nonsense.

[@reaper3516]

Now you are commanding the heavens to come down at your will, address your own vanity, and tempt God. God sends his friends down to help us in times of need. Not when we rationalize our own carnal minds. "God should do this for me, not this."

[@muncastro]

My biggest problem with this incident is this: The LDS demon god actually threatened Smith with death if he did not directly disobey Christ's teachings as found in Matthew 19.

[@radiofreeutah5328]

She recognized that being a child bride was hard but ultimately came to accept and defend it as taught by men whom she believed spoke with god. Yeah...not a great argument.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

No it's not!

[@suigeneris2663]

It wasn’t sexual, even tho he had to MARRY her, not, say, adopt her as a daughter. Just....EW!!!

[@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036]

Can you imagine being a father of a 14 yo girl and willingly give her to a 37 yo ?! He was so brainwashed that he did that to his own child. Sad.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036 Seeing as how Heber Kimball stated that he had "plural married" over 40 women, many of whom his wife Vilate was not aware of, that tells us what kind of character he had.

[@tonyclapier4576]

I'm surprised so many people completely have no understanding of this time period. On the day Joseph Smith was sealed to Helen he was also sealed to her entire family.. it was called the law of adoption. 4 years later she was married and sealed to her husband. Please folks learn some church history also consider if every sealing is a marriage.

[@salsusmagnsu]

I don't understand the push to absolve Joseph Smith from sexual relationships with his young wives. 1. It goes directly against the commandment of polygamy to "raise up seed" 2. It absolutely doesn't matter because the next few prophets DID wed and bed teenage girls.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

That's a good point about the next few prophets! I suppose the push to absolve Joseph above the others is because he is second only to Jesus in the eyes of the church.

[@zmig7793]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON - except for Joseph boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep the church together. My guess is they value Joseph as greater than Jesus but would never verbalize it. Just my thought

[@reaper3516]

Techincally true. Though Christ offered his perfect sacrifice for us, Joseph would live much longer into the ministry, whereas Christ had around 3 years to grow the church and then give or take 10- 20yrs with the apostles carrying things onward.

[@TheShodan92]

I wonder why Joseph Smith was so determined to get hitched with a child when if he were truly concerned for her eternal progression that he didn't adopt them first then have them sealed?.

[@dougcorbett4933]

If you read the writing on the wall it wasn’t about eternity at all. He knew he was lying from the beginning and had no guilt. That’s a narcissist. And a narcissist most often is very sexual!

[@randyjordan5521]

Even sillier is the fact that Helen was the daughter of one of his 12 apostles, so she didn't need to be "sealed" to Smith to improve her standing in the afterlife. Also consider the fact that, as Nemo points out, every scriptural justification for practicing polygamy was to "raise up seed." Not much point in plural marrying a 14 year old if you aren't planning to impregnate her at some point.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

@@randyjordan5521 Joseph was probably waiting until she was 16 before impregnating her. He was killed before he could do so.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@Zodiacalesotericmatrix Smith's motivation wasn't getting women pregnant, but getting to have sex with a lot of different women. Considering that he was already having sex with numerous other women, it's likely that he simply didn't get the opportunity to nail Helen before he died. Also keep in mind that for the last two years of his life, he had to severely curtail his affairs because of John C. Bennett's expose' of polygamy and William Law & Co.'s dissension.

[@madogg152]

We don't know why he did it. For that matter, the church is significantly different today. A Temple sealing did not require earth marriage. By today's standards, the church at the beginning, was a bit odd versus today.

[@LoganBeck]

You’re my hero! When I watched Saints Unscripted all I heard was a bunch of mental gymnastics and fallacies. Thanks for breaking down their nonsense bringing up the strong points.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

You’re welcome! I’m not sure I warrant Hero stays though 😂

[@kelleren4840]

Hey Logan! *waves* :)

[@TenthWardJenny]

If you wouldn't accept this excuse from Warren Jeff's, why would you accept it of Joseph Smith. Also, reducing a marriage to only its sex content fails to recognize the abusive power differential. The argument proffered is essentially that it is okay to marry a child - if you do not have sex with them. It is repulsive and shows the undue influences present in the Mormon mind set.

[@Icriedtoday]

Who said I wouldn’t accept it from Jeff’s? He can do whatever he wants to do long as it’s voluntary and complies with “current” law. Do you engage in straw man arguments often? No, I’m not saying that a 15 year olds should get married but I have cousins (Baptists, not Mormons) who got married at 15 in Alabama and no one complained (circa 1970s). In the 1800s, when so many died in their 30s, getting married young was likely more palatable. You are judging a 14-15 of that age with one today, two different worlds. Again, as I said earlier. During this time period, every state but Delaware had an age of consent at TEN, and in Delaware it was SEVEN. So look at all the facts before hoisting your biases against JS.

[@TenthWardJenny]

​@@Icriedtoday What a tedious and parsed response. Disgusting really. Of course it's not "voluntary." Regardless of the law, they are children, and not mature enough, to be informed enough, to consent to a marriage contract with a person twenty-three years senior! Not to mention the penalties impressed on them if they dared to refuse (Coercion). This is my only reply to you. It is NEVER okay for older men or women to marry child brides or grooms. It is a disgusting and harmful practice on par with pedophilia. To argue that it is, or was, okay; because other people did, or it was customary to the time, or that it was dynastic - not sexual, makes no difference! It is, it was, it always will be Evil. No matter who participates in it. Royalty or Carpetbagger. It ought to be repulsive and draw out an inner desire to protect children, not defend reproachable practices or people.

[@TenthWardJenny]

Thank God for Secular Morals.

[@leahhumberstone1010]

Exactly! I hate when I hear, "well, they didn't have sex". Um, a 23 yr age gap is the problem here! It's predatory behavior.

[@zmig7793]

@@Icriedtoday - ummmm ... you should look into the facts too before hoisting your own confirmation bias. You only look for information to support what you already believe. You read somewhere that the life expectancy in the 1800s was in the 30s. So you stop there and didn't look any further because, with that surface-level information, you can confirm your bias that what Joseph Smith (and others) did was normal for their time. Just present facts, and allow the facts to shape what you believe ... don't cherry pick facts to confirm your belief. Facts: The infant mortality rate was extremely high in the 1800s. A high # of early deaths (ages 0-5 years old) skew the average life expectancy age (simple math). If a child survived to pass 5 years of age, they can go on to live a long and normal life. If what you say is true, then doesn't it seem odd that most everyone in early Mormon history lived well past their 30s? You haven't thought that far ahead because you only want to use information to confirm your own bias, not to get to the truth of the matter. I did about 15 minutes of Wiki research on the ages of prominent Mormon people, and I copied/paste the info into this post. I list the ages at death of almost all Joseph's wives, his immediate family, and early church founders. * disclaimer - the ages could be off by 1 year depending on if they had a birthday on the year of their death* - Joseph Smith’s Wives ages from Oldest-Youngest - 97, 96, 95, 95, 85, 84, 84, 83, 82, 82, 80, 77, 76, 75, 75, 73, 72, 71, 68, 68, 68, 65, 64, 58, 55, 48, 48, 48, 46, 35, 30, 31, and a few death dates I could not find (Melissa Lott, Olive Andrews, Flora Ann Woodworth, and Maria Lawrence) - Joseph Smith’s Family ages from Oldest-Youngest - Sister Katherine Smith 87, Brother William Smith 83, Mom Lucy Mack 81, Sister Sophronia Smith 73, Uncle John Smith 73, Dad Smith Sr 69, Brother Hyrum Smith 44, Brother Samuel Smith 32, Brother Alvin Smith 25, Brother Don 25 - Founders of the LDS Church from Oldest-Youngest - Martin Harris 92, Sidney Rigdon - 83, John Taylor - 79, Brigham Young - 76, Wilford Woodruff - 69, Oliver Cowdery 46, Joseph Smith 41 There goes your theory that people married early because they only lived to their 30s in the 1800s. Now you have to find another reason to justify Joseph's appetite for women. Can't wait to see what you have to offer. Just face it man ... Joseph got caught by Emma banging the maid (Fanny) and used his position and authority to usher in "new revelation" about plural marriage so that he can have teenagers, other men's wives, and whomever else he can persuade.

[@leem3299]

Thanks for supporting people's mental health by pointing out the obvious, that only the indoctrinated can miss. And at the same time, I appreciate that your tone is not looking down on believers. They are entitled to their own beliefs, but not control of the narrative. Some people find joy in the church, and may they continue to be happy. But others are burdened so severely it destroys their quality of life. Those people need full access to what you pointed out here.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Absolutely, my pleasure!

[@zmig7793]

@ Lee M - I understand what you’re saying but I have an issue with saying “some people find joy in the church and may they continue to be happy”. The ends do not justify the means. It’s not healthy to live a lie for happiness. There is also happiness in truth and I believe it’s dangerous to remain living in a lie. The longer you live in it the more damage it will do when the truth is discovered. Eventually the truth always comes out. So their perceived happiness now does not justify the destruction they will encounter later. Keep promoting truth and that will set them free to enjoy more happiness. That’s been my personal experience and my experience with many others

[@leahhumberstone1010]

Helen was trapped. Of course she stayed and tried to make the best of it. I'm guessing she didn't have many viable options. Poor girl.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Trapped about sums it up, stuck between the prophet and her father!

[@JPBotero717]

How do you know she was trapped? You just supposed that according with what you think, could be right, could be wrong

[@colecurry2804]

Older marriages were also cash grabs to inherit their assets after they died, Brigham Young was a huge offender in this regard.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thanks for the comment! Any sources you could share on that would be great!

[@MegaJohn144]

But, back in those days, women weren't allowed to own property.

[@Zodiacalesotericmatrix]

@@MegaJohn144 but Joseph gave land deeds to many women in Nauvoo, most of them were his wives.

[@steveambrose2349]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON 8:48

[@barbarafox5989]

Looking forward to your collaboration with Peter Bleakley!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Me too! Very excited!!

[@mariozullio5801]

What has not been mentioned in this video is there is no mention of Emma either being present or giving her approval to her husband to do what he was doing

[@Nick_Scratch]

If Elizabeth Smart hadn’t been rescued, she could have written something very similar to what Helen wrote in her later years. Just sayin’

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Fair point!

[@kelleren4840]

Sorry. Cults/"Churches" that claim to have prophets that speak the "eternal, unchanging word of the lord" don't get to cry about presentism when those same prophets turn out "men of their time influenced by the prevailing thoughts and ideas of their day who can't be held accountable to modern standards." If Joseph represented an eternal/unchanging God and got to officially vocalize Gods unchanging morality... Then he ABSOLUTELY gets to be held under modern moral scrutiny.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Exactly, otherwise that would be moral relativism, something the church teaches against.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

Oh my! The way you said that just there….that made me feel a certain way! 😂 spot on!

[@reaper3516]

Modern moral scrutiny isn't perfect. And it is of course reasonable and factual to understand that prophets are products of their time. Consult your Old Testament. Personal revelation and flow freely and without compulsory means yet it is also demanding of purity. And a sound mind. Prophets need to learn this just like everyone else needs to. The only perfect moral scrutiny is of God. And men must be Born again to understand it.

[@LibRoseITM]

These videos are helping me so much to just keep grounded in the facts and see the weird non arguments for what they really are.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

I’m really glad they help, thanks for watching!

[@Kayscastle]

I fully agree, thank you Nemo!!

[@jeanbodie3921]

So it was okay for a 14 year old child to be sacrificed on the altar of polygamy in order to bind two families together? Not in my books!!!!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Exactly! Why use a 14 year old child as chattel?

[@SteveSmith-os5bs]

Helen’s had no problem giving his 14 year daughter to a 37 year old man, the whole thought process of her father’s reasoning should raise some red flags. Was her father already taking liberties with her, did he see his daughter as a piece of property to be bartered.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@SteveSmith-os5bs The latter. Heber Kimball himself "plural married" more than 40 women. "I think no more of taking a wife, than I do of buying a cow"."---Heber C. Kimball That is what he thought of women as human beings.

[@baldwinthefourth4098]

A 14 year old isn't a child.

[@benearl1645]

@@baldwinthefourth4098 Well a 14 year old isn't an adult either. What exactly are you trying to say?

[@gdog3finally]

I dated a girl when I was 18 and she had the whole portfolio made up from church that included the temple picture with the space to plug in the future RM. I remember thinking it was wacko but I left on my mission and we drifted apart. Fast forward 7 years, I read 'No Man Knows My History' in 1995 and I distanced myself from Mormonism from there. It took a while to fully separate from Mormonism and family pressure was a bitch. But thankfully, despite my wife and I having both sides of our families entrenched in Mormonism, we left the church and have been blessed to be unified in raising our kids (now grown) apart from the Church of Cheese and Rice of Rattle Day Snakes.

[@reaper3516]

Your mistake was reading "no man knows my history". Found it on my mission and it emitted a darkness to it. Later found out it truly was Anti. The church isn't Mormonism. Its the church of Christ with ordinances and covenants which must be received physically and spiritually. The Gospel is our beautiful path back to God's presence. The Holy Spirit was trying to teach you that when you were attending the temple. But you stopped worshipping there. Never understanding the principles of eternity.

[@scottbrandon6244]

@@reaper3516If Brodie's book was not a threat to the church and was just "anti" as you call it, why did the church have Fawn excommunicated?

[@reaper3516]

She wanted to leave. So the church responded to that desire.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

​@scottbrandon6244 don't ask me. Ask your 15.

[@giantclaw138]

​@@reaper3516🤖

[@lifeofty3766]

Love it! Great job!! I will be sharing this with several friends!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thank you!

[@polyglot6542]

Polygamy is and WAS illegal. To try to normalize it through a video that talks about child abuse is appalling! Shame to those who produced a video trying to convince those in doubt about the horrendous legacy of Smith.

[@DancingQueenie]

An angel would’ve killed him if he refused to seduce 30+ women. But standing up and LYING about it was no problem. Interesting.

[@treschicdaisy3074]

I'm really enjoying your videos. Thank you!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thanks for watching!

[@BryceThomas101]

Brilliant! You’re doing important work. Thanks!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

You’re very welcome!

[@yorgasor]

That's a rude way of saying it. Just say she's a little shy of 15.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Hahaha! Totally makes it better!

[@tracy8359]

Well, at 15 she'd be a Mia Maid instead of a Beehive. That's better?? ;) Ugh, whoever wrote that line was really reaching for straws to make it sound okay.

[@veronicahaney6005]

​@@tracy8359 She would still be a Mia Maid at 14 though! I remember being in Mia Maids and being told to write about qualities I want my future husband to have.

[@Hanleia1]

Nice one.

[@DancingQueenie]

@@veronicahaney6005 A BYU roommate from Kaysville said in high school senior year home ec, the girls planned their weddings. She had a scrapbook with pix she cut out of magazines, brochures for exotic honeymoon destinations and of course pix of the SL temple. All she needed was the return missionary to make it happen.

[@billy2395]

Very excited for Wednesday! Thank you again for your time and effort.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

You are very welcome!

[@MegaJohn144]

I learned a lot both from you and that video. He wasn't correct that the church ended polygamy in 1890. It was still secretly going on into the 20th century.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Yes, Shannon Cauldwell-Montez has done some brilliant research into this!

[@randyjordan5521]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Not to mention Michael Quinn. www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N01_11.pdf

[@healingasthmaacasestudy9851]

I love your videos! You are so brilliant! I especially appreciate you breaking down the logical fallacies.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thank you so much!

[@healthhollow7218]

I completely agree! It’s the most unbelievable thing that out of all things that God would send an angel with a drawn sword to command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy 🙄 PLEEEEEEASE!!! So ridiculous. I can’t. I can’t. I can’t even.....good grief! Loving your videos Nemo! I love that you can shut it down, because it certainly needs to be. Thank you so much! 🙏 😊

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

You're welcome, thanks for the kind feedback!

[@davidfrey5654]

And how ridiculous that a man could bring another man back to life. PLEEEEEESSSE!!!! So ridiculous. I can't. I can't. I can't even....good grief!

[@healthhollow7218]

@@davidfrey5654 I wrote that comment 11 months ago when I was really going through something and very angry at the church. If I offended you I apologize. I do believe in God and the Bible. Leaving Mormonism is a process and we go through stages of grief. Now I’m just trying to move on in Christ born again.

[@davidfrey5654]

@@healthhollow7218 No apologies needed. The point I was trying to make is that there are just as many unbelievable events and stories in the evangelical / protestant / "born again" Christian religions as there are in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What's harder to believe, that Moses climbed a mountain and saw God in a burning bush or a young man receiving a visit from an angel and showing him golden plates. All religions have their incredible, hard-to-believe stories. As it turns out, God does a lot of shocking things. In the Bible, God sent the angel of death to kill the firstborn sons of the Egyptians. How shocking is that!!! Commanding Joseph Smith to practice polygamy is nothing compared to killing all the firstborn sons of the Egyptians. I hope you'll one day, pick back up the Book of Mormon and give it an honest study. 🙂

[@healthhollow7218]

@@davidfrey5654 Honestly I gave it 2 years of hard study. I have found Christ and I am so very grateful for that🙏 It was a long journey but I gave it everything I had, and I’m so glad I did! I studied it all. The BOM and the Bible. I ended up reading the Bible again and I truly did gain a knowledge and a relationship with Jesus Christ. I realized what he did for us is enough. He paid it all! Our opinions on the matter are going to clash and that’s ok 😊 I really do wish you the best! God bless!

[@tuffwith2effs899]

They don't address the letter to a friend where she said she would have never married him had she known the marriage would be anything more than a ceremony

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Do you have a link to that letter?

[@FromJosephtoJesus]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON After leaving the church, dissenter Catherine Lewis reported Helen saying: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than a ceremony.” Source: "Catherine Lewis, Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons; Giving an Account of their Iniquities" (Lynn, Mass: by the author, 1848), 19. I found it in "Joseph Smith's Polygamy", a website owned by an active LDS couple.

[@Mustardmanor]

Correction: It was NOT common for teenagers at that time to marry. When people discuss young brides, it is usually much farther in the past amongst the aristocracy. The average age for women in the 1840's to get married was 20-21. On the frontier, sometimes women married younger. But 14 year olds were never common to marry.

[@lorineilson7529]

Thank you for bringing this to light.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thanks for listening!

[@jy285]

Excellent video as usual

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thank you very much!

[@lucasyates1893]

"than to do as he did" implies that Joseph did things to gratify himself that were dangerous, not that he didn't do them. That quote from Helen is an expression of how dangerous yet "necessary" the things Joseph did (according to Joseph's tale of the angel and sword), not a denouncement of the marriage being sexual.

[@lisaadams8417]

Great subject. I enjoyed your explanation. Thanks

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Glad it was helpful!

[@joshuamatthews4529]

Who did Emma catch JS having carnal relations with in the barn? Was it Fannie Alger?

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

I believe so yes, 1835?

[@gateway6827]

Nemo's cool logic cuts right through Mormon conartistry

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Cheers!

[@Mikha335]

Helen’s letter that stated “If Joseph had any impure motives or desires, he could have gratified them easier in the ways of the world,” (I’m paraphrasing). Would she have made this argument if Joseph hadn’t consummated with her?

[@oddcheese6384]

One of the excuses that I hear all the time is that it’s OK because they were still figuring polygamy out. For a commandment that great, I would think that a man talking to God would get those details right before he starts doing something illegal, and that he abhorred so much God had to send an angel with a sword to threaten him to do it. And I like that you pointed out that Helen saying she didn’t understand the ramifications of marrying Joseph is a clear indicator that there was not informed consent. Whether he had sex with her or not, this was wrong and her parents should have protected her.

[@tedgarrison8842]

Warren Jeffs Joseph Smith? Any difference?

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Some differences, but both polygamists, both married to underage girls.

[@tedgarrison8842]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Isolation Grooming Told what to wear Tithe Own government Own law enforcement Shall I continue?

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

I’m sure you’re right. Honestly, I don’t know enough about Jeffs!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

If you have any resources I’d love to learn more about him!

[@tedgarrison8842]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Same character, different century. Feel free to listen to Jeffs telling his child bride what to do on their wedding day. Listen to his own children tell how he molested them. Watch how he built a temple in Texas after he left his followers on the Utah/Arizona border in poverty. Listen to his followers stories on how they were sent away for not following his orders.

[@Richard_Rz]

Excited for Wednesday and what a topic! Trying to keep it under 2:00:00 will be a challenge.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

We’ll do our best 😂😂😂

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

We didn't manage it, but it was worth it!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

kzbin.info/aero/PL2iZEtQU3lgdibUghiA2iuDYKHUqF5qzm

[@WVelasco9977]

We converted to the Church in Mexico, 45 years ago and I always remember hearing that, polygamy was a commandment, to protect the widowers, left behind after the Anti-members killed their husbands, because family was the most important principle. Love you content. T Y

[@walcoman]

Smith: "I'll make you see God!" Kimball:"Seriously?With that tiny thing?"😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@benjamingardea4511]

Lindsay Hansen Park points out that even if the relationships weren’t sexual, which seems unlikely, these teenagers lost the normalcy of their lives. They belonged to JS. They would no longer have been able to pursue relationships and grow up like normal girls. Their agency was robbed from them. To say Heber C Kimball had Helen’s best interests at heart is to ignore that it was what was best for him. Women were currency in the early church.

[@Englishbob1955]

Inaccurate. After the celestial marriage, she went back to the home of her parents. She married Horace Whitney and had 12 children with him.

[@kennance115]

Has anyone ever researched anything about the older women Joseph married. Is it a possibility he he stood to gain property, monkey, or influence by those marriages?

[@rmandbd2]

If she was living with her parents why were they writing her letters?

[@VanessaParkes-x1r]

Awesome 👍🏽 Thank you

[@jamesmorphe8003]

If God had to send an angel with flaming sword to make smith marry a 14 yr old, THEN sMITH HIMSELF MUST HAVE considered it inappropriate, and a complete abandonment of social norms. In which case, Smith could have just married 2 women to satisfy the edict. Certainly not wed children.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Very interesting point, thank you!

[@2ndjoshua268]

I was raped but it turns out that the person really did care because they bought me stuff and kept me around. Probably the best thing to happen to me, ever. What?

[@BryceThomas101]

You should do all the Saints Unscripted videos. Have you thought about putting your content on Facebook?

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

I have a Facebook page, however there aren’t any “native” Facebook videos, they’re all KZbin links. Do you think It would be good to have them as “native” videos too?

[@BryceThomas101]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON yes! Because then I can send them to the missionaries who reach out to me. They can’t view KZbin videos but they can watch them if they are on Facebook natively.

[@shawnbradford2243]

David Snell the Saints host seems to be very smart but will not allow any questions that hurt his arguments about n the page. They just block anyone who questions their logic or supposition. It’s sad that they cannot face questions!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

He seems that way, and like someone I would get on with personally! It is a shame that there seems to be that disconnect and barrier there!

[@germanslice]

You guys seem to suffer from myopic vision. It is common for people to have more than one marriage in their lifetime. That's why we have multiple sealings to wives and husbands in the temple sealings. For some husbands had 3-4 wives in their lifetime while alive on the earth and some may have children to each one of those different marriages. and some wives had more than one husband in their lifetime with different issue also from those marriages... I see no problem with multiple marriages to those spouses. For not everybody has just only 1 marriage in their lifetime when on the earth.

[@Sam-tu4hp]

@@germanslice cool story bro! So how old is your next wife going to be? 14? 15?

[@Sayheybrother8]

When will Saints Unscripted do a special on Fanny Alger, It’s equally disturbing and affects it had on Oliver eventually leaving the church, as I understand it.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

I wasn't aware of this event, I'll look into it!

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Fanny Alger

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Cheers for clarifying!

[@schmidtcs]

Absolutely telling that he’s showing a picture of a middle age or elderly Helen instead of the younger photo we have of her (though I don’t think we have a photo at age 14).

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

We sold our daughter to a fraud. Thanks mom and dad.

[@ningenJMK]

This apologist is ignoring the fact that the Brethren and those authorized by them were performing sealings between men and plural wives well after 1890...like 1905. It was sanctioned polygamy post-1890 manifesto.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Exactly!

[@Cryptosifu]

Great arguments - new subscriber!

[@moonman239]

Even if it wasn't coercion, an awkward promise was still made. If a 14-year-old gets told by a man they see is a prophet that their whole family would be exalted if the marriage went through, why would the 14-year-old object?

[@scottbrandon6244]

Marriage at earlier age in 1840s. Data on marriage in the state of Illinois during the 1840s shows the average marrying age was 20 for women and 22 for men. Much younger than today (2023), but it still was not common to marry a 14 year old in 1842..

[@truth.speaker]

10:44 at this time it was taught that she would be blocked from exaltation if she didn't enter into polygamy. so she was basically told "you can have exaltation if you marry this man AND live a life of loyalty to this church". so he essentially seems to have said "your only option if you want to be exalted is to marry me and obey my church" Brigham Young said “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” essentially, it means Joseph was demanding both marriage AND obedience. the other video suggested he didn't promise unconditional salvation, yet they ignore the promise he did give. the correct understanding seems to be he promised her a chance at exaltation via polygamy AND obedience

[@HomestarJr]

Polygamy was all Helen Mar Kimball knew. That reduces the legitimacy of her defense of it. She has nothing to compare it to. Helen, what was it like only ever having sex with men twice your age? It wasn’t so bad I guess, I got used to it. What do these people expect her to say? I’m so glad that I don’t have to do backflips through flaming hoops to defend horrible doctrines like polygamy. I didn’t know about the child brides until after I left, so I can at least happily say I never defended the raping of children by early church leaders.

[@jefferybanks9604]

Thanks!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

My pleasure, thank you for your support!

[@Paulapint3]

So let me get this right not only was Joseph Smith a disgusting perpetrator but her father as well and her brother as well. Gosh women just had no protection from the people closest to them who should have been protecting them. So disgusting I don't care what time it was in wrong is wrong and will always be wrong.

[@dougcorbett4933]

Joseph was a narcissist!!! Period! A narcissist lies in a blink of an eye and has zero guilt of what they do. It is a mental disorder. And a narcissist oft times is very sexual. So I believed he used his position as manipulation and control!

[@mtddmtdd1]

Married a 14 year old AND lied to his wife about it AND married other women who were already married to other men AND threatened them and their family with eternal destruction if they didn't do as he ordered AND married a teenage girl who he and Emma had adopted. This guy makes pedofiles look bad.

[@suigeneris2663]

Is THAT what she really looked like at 14?!?!? WOW!

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

It's a computer de-aging, so it's fairly accurate but obviously not an image from the time!

[@corinnefowler4095]

FLDS people defend Warren Jeffs as a prophet of God why don't we believe them?

[@michaelgrey7854]

Have you done a video on why Joseph Smith married woman that were already married?

[@polyglot6542]

No poligamy is not uncomfortable Nemo, I have to differ with you on that. Poligamy is downright, pernicious and it is at the core of women's abusive tactics. It needs to be seen as the lowest practice of humiliation to women.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Hey, If THE PROPHET said God said to do it then it's golden baby!!

[@parkerplace2910]

These apologists really like to focus on the lack of sexual evidence. Does that even matter?....really. The real issue is plural marriage not who he had sex with.

[@williamtoddbradford]

To be fair, D&C 132:63 talks about A reason for polygamy was to have kids. It’s not THE only reason. D&C 132:45 says it was for a “restoration of all things” an 132:51 was to “prove you all, as I did Abraham.” Plus you cited the Angel reproving Joseph for not “fully” living plural marriage.

[@mormonguru5984]

Do a video on his relationship with Fanny Alger

[@benjamingardea4511]

These apologists make me sick

[@davidhepple]

For an explanation of polygamy see the Prophet Gordon Hinckley’s interview with Larry King. : )

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

You mean the interview where he said it isn't doctrinal? Despite the fact that it is in Doctrine & Covenant 132 and he must surely know that? I've watched that one already, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it!

[@leb7860]

All of Joseph’s living descendants are from Emma. If God told you to do something, would you do it?

[@suigeneris2663]

I think going against His commandments in the Bible would be a good tip-off that it’s not God that’s talking to you.

[@ColleenJohnston-t3j]

Why didn’t Joseph just adopt Heber C.?😢

[@scottbrandon9390]

Didn't Helen Mar Kimball later leave Smith and the LDS community and marry someone else?

[@ajwerner6639]

My bet is the older women he married were widows with land or other assets to grab. 😑

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Could be, although I'm unaware of any sources that point to that. If you find anything, let me know!

[@kelvisstyles]

Lots of people talk highly of Warren Jeff's also....doesn't mean he was good

[@yorgasor]

The Twelve took Joseph's wives after his death. Kimball and Young took most of them ; the daughter of Kimball was one of Joseph's wives. I heard her say to her mother, 41 I will never be sealed to my Father, (meaning as a wife) and I would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, I will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must Neither will I be sealed to Brig- ham Young." The apostles said they only took Joseph's wives to raise up children, carry them through to the next world, there deliver them up to him, by so doing they should gain his approbation, &c. -- Catherine Lewis, Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons, printed 1848 Catherine was a house guest of the Kimballs and a little older than Helen, but fled after Heber proposed to her and wrote a pamphlet describing her run in with polygamy. It's probably not an exact quote of what Helen said, but probably a pretty fair approximation of something she said at the time.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

See, objectively that source is fairly reliable. However, from a mormon perspective, the author is anti-mormon, so therefore, it doesn't matter what she says!

[@abrahamlincolnjones2922]

And I thought they were going to talk about Nancy Winchester, how disappointing.

[@blackalien6873]

Joseph was a freak.

[@lamarowens9422]

Being With a Underage Girl During Those Times. That was a Different Era this was in the 1800's. You Wouldn't Get away With that Shit Now. Ask Warren Jeff

[@kourt2469]

If the whole point was to bond the families, why not just have joseph marry helens mother or have helens father marry emma smith

[@bethan.gruffydd]

If these are really acceptable justifications for Smith marrying Helen for modern day members, then why don't Mormons care about all this "eternity-only" marriage stuff in the modern day? Why don't they do these supposedly non-sexual, dynasty-creating marriages now?? If creating links between families "in the eternities" was so important back then, why isn't that important now?? Why wouldn't modern-day Mormons be delighted to have their 13 year-old daughters chastely sealed for eternity only to Russell Nelson?? (Oh, because it's creepy as hell and doesn't make any sense....?) Mormon God sure is confused and fickle and just can't seem to figure this shit out......

[@Crabzila-OFICIAL]

Why didn’t Joseph have children from this plural marriages?

[@katrynnmelville1490]

abortions and other birth control methods. John C Bennett was known to perform abortions. Hyrum Smith said as much in an affidavit, Orsen Pratt and Sarah Pratt also say that was the case. " Bennett told Sarah Pratt "that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy, and that he had frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure of the parties, and that he had instruments for that purpose." If the women refused, Bennett stated that he came with Joseph's approval. Sarah Pratt herself recounted an incident in which“ [Bennett was en route to do] "a little job for Joseph [because] one of his women was in trouble." Saying this, he took [out] a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered."

[@bethanychristensen200]

I think he must have children from these marriages. it is pologymist tradition to not take on the name of your husband as a plural wife. the first wifes gets the public last name any wife after that hides under their own last name being that it is illegal as well. Ancestry is owned by the mormon church so if they have proof they are hiding it. I also think Joseph wives seperated from the church and his posterity is housed in one if not many of the offshoots of polygamy. Polygamist groups are very secretive and not willing to take ancestry most of the time. I think the jeffs group look alot like him just saying

[@nikwilson5599]

The reason for plural marriage is to bear the souls of men , what does that even mean ? 2 : 15

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

D&C 132:63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

To bear children, to bring new souls to earth.

[@williamthompson9969]

To talk about a 14 years old girl’s marriage and show a 90 year old woman is not honest. Don’t show a picture or admit there is no picture of Helen Kimble as a 14 year old. We have sophisticated age regression picture technology why not use that. I don’t find this very honest.

[@matthewallen513]

Excellent review as usual. The british family of the church is on point. Life is grey especially with polygamy. I will say I discount any video that will only use the information of brian hales. It is very one sided. Where is todd compton's work etc. It's not an accident church materials only source him.

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thanks, I didn’t realise the church relied so heavily on Hales!

[@matthewallen513]

@@NEMOTHEMORMON yes one look at the Nauvoo essay and how many times the church sources him. Dan vogal goes over smiths wives calling hales out. I think it fundamentally bothers hales that Joseph Smith had sex with other women besides Emma. And he writes to disprove it. I understand the need to seal family for eternity. But as you pointed out posterity is part of polygamy ie sex. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJvEoGl6nrNlers

[@ImagesofJosephSmithJun.]

It's not mental gymnastics: Eternity Only (not married until the next life), Time (married in Mortality), Spiritual Wifery (free love/swingers)- denounced by the Church in 1844, men excommunicated for Spiritual Wifery in 1842, one of them accused their worst enemy, the RS as being a harem of Spiritual Wifery, but their public statements that they were not "spiritual wives" were not lies- they were not temporary- pass around the dinner table women... Read everything Emily P. says; she was a TIme and Eternity Wife, she was asked to speak at the temple lot case to prove Joseph Smith was not just sealed to a bunch of Women for Eternity (which as akin to Catholic nuns- NO SEX AT ALL)- Helen bemoaned in Poetry her sealing was for "Eternity Alone"- once you get the likeness to nuns, you get the mocker of Bennett calling the RS "Cloistered" like nuns- but then lying and saying they were being trafficked... why would the pages of Relief Society minutes speak solely, almost, about Restoring Virtue and "Innocense"- that word was used in the Voice of Innocense and the women and men SHOUTED Amen, three times... Emily said Joseph Smith NEVER took liberties, they really... interrogated her if she was seduced- read it here. : catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/6ed3a142-524e-4471-852d-51e8ef422647/0/1 Whitney

[@Hpencer]

Joseph Smith did not practice or practice polygamy. He only did the opposite.

[@faithlessfather]

How do you already have thousands of subscribers after only 7 months of making videos?

[@zaboomafia]

#Mormons #JosephSmith #LDS #Church

[@NEMOTHEMORMON]

Thanks for tagging!

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Even if there was no sex (and I think it's pretty clear Joseph was a charming, controlling horndog) it's still child abuse. Joseph and Helen's parents should feel deep shame (especially her father given the power structures at the time). And of course Helen defended polygamy. That's what psychological victims do.

[@nerdnul]

Mormonism constitutes a menace to the Christian religion. It is not only un-Christian, but anti-Christian. It does not regard anyone as saved outside of its own pale. It aims at breaking down all Christian denominations and creeds, but is itself subversive of the principles of Christianity. It is another and very different gospel which it preaches from that of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul had never heard of Mormonism, of course, but he described it pretty accurately when he wrote to the Galatians: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed "( Gal i 6-9 ) It sounds also as if Paul was talking about Mormons when he said to Timothy: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God ; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth; men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." (2 Tim: 11. 1-8.) Jude must certainly have been thinking about Mormon elders when he wrote: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4.) And to whom are the words of John so appropriate as to Mormon elders: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 9-1 1.) I did not say that. The kind, the gentle, the loving, the beloved John said it. And he was talking about Mormon elders when he said it. The Mormon elders have three objects in view as they go through the country. (1) To undermine the Christian religion and substitute their semi-heathenism in its place. (2) To convert all the men they can so as to get their money and their votes. (3) To convert all the women they can for their wives. As history has shown, they are making no converts at home, either among the men or the women, and so they must gain converts abroad or they will soon perish. I do not believe in hanging or shooting or rotten-egging these elders. In the first place it is not right, and in the second place it gives them the opportunity to cry persecution, which they love to do. In 1844 Joseph Smith was a candidate for the US Presidency against Polk and Clay, and Mormon elders were sent allover the country to electioneer for him. He was not elected, one reason being that he was killed before the election. If the Mormon program could be carried out, what is to prevent a Mormon from occupying the White House some day? And yet the best time to crush despotism is in its incipiency. "Resist the beginnings," is an old and ever true maxim. Eternal vigilance is the price of our liberty's preservation. Mormon schemes must be exposed, Mormon diplomacy counteracted by an outraged public sentiment, Mormon cunning met and mastered by the wisdom of a Christian statesmanship. If this power shall pit itself further against our institutions, let it be crushed into powder. Let Christian sentinels be ever alert, and, at slightest hint of Mormon encroachment, sound the tocsin of war. Never forget that Joseph Smith declared non-mormons “enemies." I stand as a proud enemy of the Mormon blasphemy.

[@RIO4LIFE]

If Mitt Romney had won against Trump, he would have been running for President on the Republican ticket instead of Donald Trump.

[@zapzeus988]

This kid doing these videos for the church is an absolute door knob.

[@RelativelyDave]

Its easy to criticise leadership of the church around marriage but back in the 1800’s it was quite normal for someone to marry legally as low as 12 (ie for a female and depending on the US state), importantly it was lawful to marry at that age with parents consent and/or by court order Life expectancy was lower back then and there were not the same opportunities for education/employment etc afforded as there are today Be careful of judging historical practices by todays standards and laws

[@walcoman]

Seriously? So, by that justification that you believe exhonerates sexual abuse of a child? That must also make it perfectly fine to bang farm animals too? 😂 wow.

[@johneasler9967]

sounds like a creep to me

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Okay. Let me believe that too. Okay?¿????

[@oddcheese6384]

It was okay for Joseph to marry and have sex with 14 year olds, but not for me to go on dates until I was 16 or to date one on one until I was in my twenties so I didn’t lead the young men my age astray from serving missions. What a load of BS!

[@amazonwater7778]

In the Middle East was like that Mary was 14 Joseph was 30

[@willx9352]

The Bible does not give an age for either Mary or Joseph. Church tradition is that Joseph was an older man.

[@Hpencer]

No he didnt