Yoshino INVESTIGATION - Are Their Solid State Batteries REAL?

[@SilverCymbal]

Thanks for watching, what do you guys think? If you can't handle the backstory & just want the goods go 2:55

[@RichGee]

Once again, another great KZbin - carefully researched and thought out. One of my favorite channels.

[@thefpvlife7785]

In short this is SSD 1.0. Things will improve as always over time.

[@meikgeik]

I'm sorry, but why do you keep asserting that all batteries will "blow up?" That phrase is pretty loaded considering "blow up" to the layman is a violent explosion that involves visible flames and significant force in a shockwave. LATP batteries should not "blow up" under pretty much any circumstance (I am unaware of any doing so. FURTHER, they should not catch fire or spew fire as some lithium chemistries do when PUNCTURED which is specifically the premise of this video (responding to the video someone posted of a cell from a Yoshino catching fire when pierced). LATP as well as other chemistries (LTO and LFP come to mind) almost never spew visible flames when punctured and are generally considered safe because when they fail they vent gasses that are half the temperature of the flame point of the gasses being emitted. There are numerous studies out there exploring LATP chemistry batteries and they are touted as safe, so either you are calling the user who shot one of these batteries a liar, or you are ignorant, which one is it? You basically wrote a company a bunch of questions and then believed their answers because companies never lie I guess? I dunno, why don't you just crack yours open and stab a pack if you're just so utterly confident it wont explode?

[@WillProwse]

Oh heck yes hahah finally a good channel opening this thing up 🤩

[@spankymagee]

I love both of yalls channels. Glad you're visiting!

[@SilverCymbal]

You are 100x better at this one than me but I am good at antagonizing people so I went that route.

[@thefpvlife7785]

Hey Will please follow up on this SSD topic. I just think it's SSD 1.0 and will improve with time.

[@hificat101]

Were you the notorious punctureer Will?

[@ProbeGT2]

Hum, what's that odd smell? Ohh yeah, it's sarcasm! 😅

[@JeepinMaxx]

Thanks for digging into this topic - the fact that Yoshino shared those documents with you speaks volumes. They were prepared with a response to inquiries. A questionable company would have been a bit more shady and misleading in their response

[@senatorchinchilla5389]

To me, it sure seems like they are proud of their product and will stand behind it. I don't know a ton about battery chemistry, but I am an engineer. They have given you a LOT of detailed info that a lying company would not be keen to share.

[@corey6393]

Agreed. I know next to nothing on this topic, but it does seem the company has done a good job with clarity here.

[@SilverCymbal]

I was genuinely surprised, based on other comments I was ready to get no response at all.

[@meikgeik]

LATP should NOT explode or be flammable in any circumstance I am aware of, either the company is lying and sending a false report, or the user on youtube who showed one exploding is lying. I don't tend to trust companies at their word, so someone needs to verify the findings of the only person on youtube willing to actually puncture a cell from a Yoshino. If I didn't just loan my sister everything I had to help her with hurricane Milton/Helene damage until her insurance comes in... I'd order one and do it myself, but I'm broke AF until she pays me back in a few months.

[@oneisnone7350]

It’s probably like the term “organic”. Even dog shit is organic. So, there’s probably a gray zone for the term solid state, and it sounds like they’re likely in it.

[@trippwilson810]

The word “organic” has a specific definition when referencing food and is backed by regulatory standards from the USDA. It is illegal to refer to food as organic if it does not meet those rigorous standards.

[@BoltRM]

Some pill supplements say "it's from nature!" Everything is from nature 🙄

[@Sylvan_dB]

@@trippwilson810 Chemistry also has a specific definition for organic. The USDAs definition of organic food was widely considered a compromise driven by large agribusiness so they could participate in what was dominated by small business. The chemistry definition of organic is at least rational and consistent rather than a profit driven checkbox.

[@CookiePepper]

This is so called semi-solid state battery. It uses solid state electrolyte but the anode and cathode are not mechanically connected to the electrolyte so liquid electrolyte is also used.

[@clownbaby420]

sounds like it's not a question of 'amount' of fluid but what it's used for. apparently, a 'solid state' battery could be gushing and guzzling with liquid so long as it's not used as the electrolyte.

[@Rbeavs]

I always feel like I learn something watching your videos

[@1new-man]

yup

[@Sylvan_dB]

Yoshino almost certainly buys the cells for integration into their power station. So far the solid state battery industry is still new enough that dozens of different materials are under development and small scale production both as electrolyte and the anode and cathode. However, some are more solid than others. The less solid type are often referred to as semi-solid or quasi-solid. The cells Yoshino uses seem to me to be of the less solid type. This is still a significant reduction in liquid, but it isn't like the typical LiFePO4 or Lithium NCM or other commonly used cells are full of liquid that you can pour out if you open the cell. In other words, the typical lithium cells that are commonly in use today are not "flooded" cells. In those cells the liquid facilitates ion exchange - a necessary function of the battery. The key question is, is the liquid a passive element or does it participate in ion exchange between cathode and anode? If active then the cell is not solid state but might be considered semi-solid. If passive then the cell is technically solid state but might its components may have been compromised to reach performance or manufacturing goals. Personally I consider a further reduction in liquid is not enough to qualify as a solid state cell, and the behavior of the cells from the Yoshino power station does not seem to fulfill the promised safety characteristics of solid state batteries. This means to me that at best it is a compromised solid state cell, and if you don't achieve the promised safety and life benefits, it is deceptive advertising.

[@snowgorilla9789]

The documents they provided do not seem to be google chineezium, so give them a break, nothing that makes power is 100% safe, are they safer than the competion, maybe. But they ARE lighter, and for me that is the winning issue

[@davidchristensen6908]

Good investigation and the company sure seemed willing to show you documentation.

[@adstix]

Great investigative journalism! Now let us also hold the products of Apple, Google, Microsoft, GM, etc to the same thorough degree of scrutiny and accountability over the accuracy of their advertising!

[@joeyt5168]

On the lab test documents you need to find the name of an independent lab and then follow up with that lab to verify the test and lab is valid.

[@jefff6167]

Another informative video. You create useful content that’s interesting and fun to watch.

[@Mordenor]

(Semi) Solid state battery only says that the electrolyte is (partially) solid. A solid electrolyte allows for using lithium metal anode, and sulfur / oxide cathode which is where the claims for energy density / safety come from. These are what really increase energy density compared to liquid electrolytes, not the solid electrolyte itself. But solid state doesnt need these technologies. e.g. quantumscape use lithium metal anode with LFP cathode to give intermediate energy density. This battery uses carbon anode, NMC cathode, carbon anode, so it will have the same energy density as a normal NMC cell, with maybe some other benifits. The confusion comes from advertising claiming solid-state is better than liquid. The actual case is lithium metal batteries are better. Solid state is one way to get lithium metal batteries, and there are other ways (e.g. biomimetic electrolytes)

[@who2u333]

No matter the battery format, the image at 5:23 shows a significant weight reduction for essentially the same power as the Ecoflow. That matters, at least to me.

[@travismoore3146]

They haven’t been called MSDS for years. They are now called SDS.

[@onecrazywheel]

I started in the trades 2 decades ago. I also still refer to them as MSDS too. It shows our age. Also it makes more sense.

[@thefpvlife7785]

In short this is SSD 1.0. Things will improve as always over time.

[@Terrathrax]

Either way, I'm impressed with the power to weight ratio. More reviews are needed. Even the size is smaller.

[@hobowithashotgun48]

The US office could just be a sales office, which a Chinese company can open and abandon if serious litigation occurs. Generally speaking I go by the principle that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. A completely unknown Chinese company bringing to market a breakthrough technology at an affordable price and beating all the well established competitors? To me that just sounds far less plausible than yet another case of deceptive advertising.

[@fourpressmedia2674]

Great explanation and follow up. Thank you!

[@nobody46820]

If you want these batteries for sale (as individual cells), we (as a group) need to email and call the sales reps and manufacturer.

[@bluesky9093]

Without a complete tear apart of the battery, and understanding the material inside, it sounds like this is a hybrid solid state battery. Bear in mind the difference between a traditional Lithium Ion battery and solid state is the electrolyte, one is a liquid (traditional) and the other is a solid material. Hence solid state. In a hybrid solid state a solid electrolyte is indeed used to separate the anode and cathode, however a small amount of liquid or gel catholyte is still used in the cathode. It has an improved cathode and electrolyte interface and greater energy density. However the liquid or gel still presents some potential safety issues. I’m not saying that is what you have here, but that is what it sounds like to me. Maybe a followup with the company would confirm it is a Hybrid solid state battery.

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

If the solid electrolyte is in the form of a powder, there's going to be air in between the grains, and compressing it may not get rid of all the air. Not electrolyte might also not be compressible. A liquid might help the conductivity (or something) between grains making the battery more efficient. Still, this would be a solid electrolyte because the liquid has nothing to do with the actually power generation and remains inert. That's my guess.

[@muhammadwibisonojanuar7793]

What about CATL battery found on BYD? Can that solid state battery be used for power station too?

[@chitacat]

Your channel is great. Don't need to care about the barking...

[@ezg8448]

Yoshina I believe use "SEMI-SOLID STATE" batteries. The operating voltage was enough to tell that it was clearly a battery that was like the traditional or a phosphate type, so it was a new type.

[@asificam1]

Great Scott has a video with the LCB (lithium Ceramic) technology, you can cut them with scissors while a load is connected and nothing explody happens. But they are not cheap nor do they hold much.

[@43j832]

It's not solid state in what everyone expected and they knew this. Semi solid state. Hehe. Our learning has to improve and perhaps this another type called Semi Solid. Marketing will always fudge things but I am not sure even they knew totally this was *ify* on definition.

[@stu-po]

They don't seem to be UL rated. I note that other brands are UL rated.

[@alext8828]

What's the issue here, really? Safety, right? We want solid state because it's perceived as being safer. (could be true). If it's not true than who cares if it's solid state? Let's assume all this to be true. They say the liquid is a binder. Don't binders normally dry? If it's liquid, how is it binding? Bottom line; will it hurt me. Isn't that all we really need to know. Torture test time. Stop with the words and start with the actions.

[@mordant221]

Not just for safety, but because they last longer (more cycles) and aren't as affected by either extremes in temperature.

[@alext8828]

@@mordant221 Ah, so. Trueness.

[@bonkgameing]

@@mordant221not only that, the expanded amount of materials you could use to make batteries means we have more materials to make batteries that hold even more charge

[@lastborn8s]

I have put my money on Yoshino being the product they advertised …the 8330sst portable power station to this point in my usage hits all the empirical bench marks I have been able to put it thru …the pending part for me is the repeatability ?! The Manufacturing And Design Quality are very good for a consumer level starting point product …. I was an early adopter of Lithium Ion Batteries to a high end laptop 20+ years ago … this preliminary first iteration of the SSD may be a moon shot product or it may be a what might have been …the time test will be the determining factor and from what I have so far assessed is that the failures pure 10K units is currently on par with a responsible well manufactured product … as for this being the pen ultimate solid state battery formulation it is not …it is however a production ready iteration that functions and functions well in my short term usage …I know locally we have two solid state battery companies in R & D that could follow Yoshino into this market path right now with their solid state battery blend but both are targeting military and industrial markets first …which I think is the better market to iterate in …so bravo to Yoshino for tackling iteration of technology and product in a very difficult way!

[@rheaghen]

@SilverCymbal the battery you dipicted at 2:37 is a Lithium Ion Polymer batter LiPo and is not necessarily the same as Li-Ion. (not sure how these two perform in comparison in a puncture scenario)

[@Samlol23_drrich]

was that you questioning that witness? It certainly sounded like you.

[@SilverCymbal]

He did sound a bit like me, but it wasn't

[@Samlol23_drrich]

@@SilverCymbal I thought you were an attorney or judge in another life.....

[@youdontknowme5969]

1:28 LOL

[@gzfelix]

Your SEM lab report is not accessible. Do you have an alternative link?

[@YukonHawk1]

Maybe United Laboratories needs to test and dig into this thing.

[@bikeny]

I'm not trying to be one of those folks, but as I don't know all the standards bodies out there, are you referring to Underwriters Laboratories? And, yes, it would be good for them to check this stuff out.

[@DiHandley]

It is for all intents and purposes, by the definition, a solid state battery.

[@andrewt9204]

The true test is taking a cell from one of those and put it through a long term cycling test and verifying its degradation.

[@markm8188]

How do their prices compare with common lithium-iron-phosphate batteries? If there'sa premium, do you think it's worth it?

[@SilverCymbal]

Solidi state batteries offer better safety, but the big advantage is higher energy density and less weight. I certainly want safe devices, but no one likes how much all of these power stations are starting to weigh. So anything that is safer and lighter is a good step.

[@Therealphantomzero]

When i saw this. Yoshino did as all of this information on their website. So they are way up front about it. I think i noticed something to about their output if i remember correctly. It outputs more or something like that

[@pingnick]

The high power density of their biggest model does seem to show that it is “more solid state” than most other options anyway squishy definition

[@pingnick]

One would think that many other entities including obviously vehicles would try to utilize this ASAP so wow!?🔋🤯

[@wheel1775]

Their batteries are probably different enough and close enough to solid state that they can use the term. Plus they’re a Chinese company who’s probably not real concerned about lawsuits.

[@miketrissel5494]

I don't think you have a leg to stand on. As long as salespeople steal terms that are already being used within an industry, THEY can interpret things anyway THEY want. I've been an electronics-electrician for 50 years, and to me, Solid State means it has no tubes. A PC can be a personal computer, a printed circuit, a programable controller, or a half dozen other things. What authority can you claim, has the right to determine what a 'manufacturer' can use as a descriptive term, on their box? The industry is out of control, and too many governmental arms are reaching into the soup, to claim jurisdiction and control. The cause is lost! OSHA NEMA UL, NEC, all want a piece, and 20 years from now will create 10 more agencies full of double-talk lawyers to protect them from their negligence. Solid State Battery ... HAH! Electrolyte free, dry cell

[@Ray_of_Light62]

The biggest solid-state battery can power a smart watch. The batteries inside the power station are LFP types, and the claim is a lie. No investigation are necessary.

[@davidjernigan8161]

It should really be referred to as a solid electrolyte battery, not solid state.

[@Leonardokite]

Thanks for being a watch dog. And I learned something which might not be good LOL, because now I want to go puncture some of my old lithium-ion batteries 🤪🤷‍♂

[@Don.Challenger]

What is the comparative (cross measure - battery brands) and proportional (self measure) quantity of liquid by weight to the total weight of the battery component (and to bring that other great controversy of (prepper/DIY communities) how's that relate to wet vs dry cement pour slumpage, i.e. how sloppy is the internal material and could you make a patty from it and BBQ it on the 4th).

[@Stealther]

I don’t see how their email response is any more damning than their claims on their website or their product packaging

[@SilverCymbal]

Keep watching theres more

[@TranTek]

More like a pouch cells than solid states

[@scottjones9603]

Maybe I’m missing something but wouldn’t the most obvious thing be to take it apart yourself or send it to a lab? I know u don’t want to waste a battery but just saying

[@SilverCymbal]

That document I shared is supposed to be just that. You certainly could send it to a lab on your own but the cost of the analysis is in the thousands of dollars as an electronic microscope is used and its really specialized work.

[@johanslabbert2869]

Haha, solid state… The record player I grew up with has the words “SOLID STATE” proudly on the front panel, in raised lettering and accented with silver paint. Far more prominent than the manufacturer logo. So much so that for a long time I was convinced solid state was the manufacturer of the device 😂 This Chinese battery probably qualifies as solid state in the way that some orange juices may be called such as long as it contains mostly orange juice (but also other things)

[@andreym325]

Poke the battery! Gosh 😂

[@Talha0067]

nice

[@CSGATI]

Solid State BMS

[@mesiroy1234]

‏‪1:02‬‏ lithiu3m make boom And thts first time here in chnnale

[@_SurferGeek_]

Intentionally puncturing a battery is the equivalent of tossing a lit match into an ICE fuel tank. Both will achieve the same end results. 😅

[@brettlinton1693]

I think components under extreme heat can become liquids. Take metal...solid...heat it up...can become liquid. My verdict...Honest Company...

[@CCWSig]

"Solid state battery" really? That's the gimmick we're going with now?

[@JWill6969]

It's not a gimmick. They could potentially revolutionize battery tech if they are mastered.

[@tech-obsessed]

Why can't you take it apart? Seriously, it's the simplest way to get your answer. This video does nothing to answer the actual question, rather it adds to more speculation...

[@SilverCymbal]

You can take it apart, sure. Others have and I shared what they found. Problem is, what do you do, taste the powder? smell it? That's the point, it's just a guess. Few situations like this have a single silver bullet answer, I shared what I found and you can decide.

[@crowmanhusk5644]

It's not that easy to go "that eloctrolyte kinda sorta looks like a liquid". That's not good enough. You need, in writing, a lab analysis and report like shown in this video here. If all of that were fake, then the company would be facing legal consequences.

[@thefpvlife7785]

We'll leave that up to Will Prowse...lol.

[@tech-obsessed]

@@thefpvlife7785 good idea

[@Sylvan_dB]

@@crowmanhusk5644 The problem is, the components and materials do not define what is or is not a solid state battery. There are dozens of different combinations in test and development. There is a definition of solid state battery based on the behavior of the elements and compounds in the battery. That definition does not preclude having a flooded battery. There are promised safety benefits of solid state batteries. In my opinion if the battery does not provide those benefits, if it behaves like other lithium-based batteries, then meeting the definition of solid-state is not relevant.

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Deliver, don't just waffle!

[@partsandlaborgroup]

You mean Trump.