Flap problem. Fuel dumping. KLM / Martinair Boeing 747 needs the longest runway at Miami. Real ATC

[@jaysmith1408]

Miami, longest civilian runway in south Florida. Next up is Orlando with twin twelve thousands. Homestead is seven hundred feet longer than Miami’s 8R, but there’s nothing there. Canaveral is fifteen thousand, but there’s nothing there either.

[@Randomequestrian-pm4hl]

KLM Martinair in the PAN-PAN stated 3 souls on board plus horses. As a long haul I would expect that would include one reserve pilot? It is confusing as KLM advertise horse movement with specialised personnel accompanying the horses in cargo.

[@EdOeuna]

Possibly just 2 pilots and a groom for the horses.

[@rossunderhill8820]

I would have expected 5 or 6 on board based on other flights.

[@rdspam]

Relief crew regulations vary by airline, with relief crew requirement cutoffs between 7 and 10 hours flight time, commonly 8h. FlightAware doesn’t show 9/6 MPH6912 on their free site, but the 9/13 MPH6912 flight, also MIA-AMS, was scheduled for 7:40 (actual flight time was 7:47). Fwiw, definitions vary, but ICAO defines long-haul/long-range as > 8 hours.

[@EdOeuna]

@@rdspam - I did a freighter flight recently which was about 8:15, just two crew. If there are 3 then someone is on board looking after those horses.

[@Randomequestrian-pm4hl]

@@rdspam Thanks very much for explaining the flight time; it makes sense now. Much appreciated.

[@EdOeuna]

Presumably the control issue was more to do with the consequences of Flap Drive NNC with reduced flaps for landing as opposed to a secondary issue with the actual flight controls.

[@NicolaW72]

Thank you very much for picking this incident up! A calm and very professional dealing with this emergency situation by both sides! Really exemplary!👍

[@12345fowler]

I was surprised by the crew not requesting fire equipment but they talked over and over about their coming hot brakes (max landing weight and short runway) seems illogical for me. Safety first - get the fire engine with you if your brakes catch fires it can be not be a simple PAN PAN PAN anymore.

[@NicolaW72]

@@12345fowler They probably assumed that ARFF would be on stand by - but of course: assuming is something else as knowing.

[@afcansf5996]

@@NicolaW72 They say that they didnt needed them, but that they knew they were there.

[@stephengustavson4054]

Not sure if this can be answered here, but Orlando had a couple of 12,000 foot and Tampa an 11000 foot runway open, is it the company's decision where to land? Pilot indicated maintenance is easier at Miami, but would not it have been safer to go to Orlando? I am purely curious who makes those decisions and if also less fuel would have been dumped had they diverted to one of those other airports. Thank you

[@saxmanb777]

The pilots make the ultimate decision on these things. The company and even ATC can offer guidance or information, but the pilots get the final say.

[@jonathankleinow2073]

Southwest Florida Int'l in Fort Myers also has a 12,000-foot runway.

[@axelknutt5065]

How does the pilot call “The Company”? On his mobile phone or all the way to Amsterdam on that crappy radio that is barely understandable within sight of Miami?

[@joerivanlier1180]

Satalite phone, in KLM's case Inmarsat. Or they use acars to text the company.

[@axelknutt5065]

@@joerivanlier1180 👍🏻 Thanks

[@saxmanb777]

The radios are much better sounding to the actual users. But, Sat phone, ACARS, even Wi-Fi calling, and phone patch through various radio services.

[@1999fxdx]

We hauled horses sometimes in our 300C freighters. They’re really touchy.

[@rickbaer4342]

Is "No Worries" an accepted ATC term

[@12345fowler]

Accepted term ? What does that even mean lol ? They talk english american and last time I checked this was in the dictionary.

[@BabyMakR]

No alert by ATC of aircraft dumping fuel to other aircraft?

[@oscarolie5743]

Is that an Aussie in the control tower (...no worries...)?

[@jcl410]

He sounds American...... I, also an American, started saying "no worries" a couple of years ago... I'm not even sure how/where I picked it up from.

[@oscarolie5743]

Lol!!! @@jcl410

[@kaasmeester5903]

He didn’t say “mate” though.

[@apple54345]

"No worries" has definitely made it's way into 'murica. I use it daily.

[@EdOeuna]

Nearly made me choke on my Vegimite sandwich.

[@QFWP]

I was waiting for ATC to make the fuel dumping announcement for other pilots in the area - but there wasn't one?

[@albertotognoni4819]

Strange that

[@Thomas-yj8fd]

Is "We don't need the fire trucks but we know they will be there" equal to "we may need the fire trucks but don't want to pay if not" ?

[@12345fowler]

Yeah, I found it very petty from the crew .- maybe it was a base instruction as they were discussing with them. Reminds me some of the biggest catastrophe in the maritime industry (Amocco Cadiz oil tanker) when back in the 80's it was up the ships captains to order a tug or not, and many would wait too late to order tugs in perileous situations like the one the Amocco was in. Now laws has changed and the relevant maritime authority can order tug for any boat without captain or company consent - while they still have to pay for it off course.

[@jr637-1]

A chartered aircraft from Las Vegas to Pittsburgh had to divert to KC and make an emergency landing. That would be an interesting one to cover.

[@slappymcgillicuddy7532]

was an A330neo carrying the Pittsburgh Steelers home from their game I think

[@rutgerw.]

I am surprised they had to figure out which runways were available during the emergency. Wouldn’t there have been a NOTAM about 9 being closed and they would have had a suitable alternate planned or delayed departure until 9 was available again? Probably it all was well within emergency limits and the concerns were mainly operational?

[@saxmanb777]

Don’t need a departure alternate unless it’s below minimums for getting back in. 9 was NOTAM’d closed. Sometimes it can be opened, sometimes not.

[@spiest78]

Max brake must've been interesting for the horses on board and probably also a reason why they tried to get a longer runway so to avoid unnecessary stress for animals.

[@747driver]

With over 10.000' of runway you hardly need the brakes at all. Just full reverse and a low autobrakes setting would a enough to stop at the end.

[@spiest78]

That's not what the pilots concern was. They mention several times they fear overheated brakes and wanted to use the longer 09 runway.

[@jonbaldwin]

Interesting etiquette question. Obviously an emergency aircraft gets what it wants, but to threaten to close a runway merely because other options were less convenient for their engineers?

[@jcl410]

The airport was reportedly working on the lights on the runway. They had already closed the runway and started the work.... Apparently, once started, the runway was unusable...

[@blockbertus]

The reason why they metioned the closing of 8R is because they most likely are going to have hot brakes and maybe blown tires due to the shorter runway and the heavy braking they would need to do. All of that they mentioned to the controller.

[@jonbaldwin]

Yeah I understand the problem with RW09, it was the response to the suggestions of Orlando that I was observing.

[@hendrikharryg]

I don't see it as a threat. It's fair if you think you can't handle it. That being said, When the controller said that RW9 is not available due to maintenance, that should have ended the discussion.

[@jonathankleinow2073]

I didn't think he was threatening anything, he was just clarifying that MIA would only have 8L and 12 (maybe) available if they landed on 8R, because if the tires popped it would take a significant amount of time to get the plane off the runway.

[@BillHustonPodcast]

They were dumping fuel over land?

[@oscarolie5743]

At certain hight that is not an issue...

[@MrWhiterunGuard]

In the video they are dumping 20 miles off the coast.

[@oscarolie5743]

Nope, they also dumped over land....@@MrWhiterunGuard

[@saxmanb777]

It evaporates before hitting the ground.

[@S_Paoli]

my first thought was.... call NASA... surely they have a much longer runway in Florida... and no, don't call me Shirley.

[@EdOeuna]

Does NASA have good horse handling facilities?

[@MrBlueBurd0451]

I mean, the SLF is 15k ft, but there's no aircraft handling nor cargo handling nor emergency services at the SLF, so it's pretty damned far down the list of runways I'd want to use in an emergency, even if it's just a PAN-PAN.

[@LZ-zi3ll]

You must be joking.

[@tompurvis1261]

Was it still dumping fuel over land?

[@NicolaW72]

Yes. But most over the Sea.

[@saxmanb777]

The fuel evaporates either way.

[@John_Be]

Poor guys couldn't catch a break!

[@lebojay]

The runway at Homestead Air Reserve Base is 11,200ft. It’s about as far away as Ft. Lauderdale, and much closer to MIA than Palm Beach.

[@EdOeuna]

Pilots probably don’t have charts for that, and it’s probably not in the GPWS terrain database either.

[@blackduckfarmcanada]

No maintenance, no cargo ops capability in case of being disabled

[@saxmanb777]

No reason to land at an air base. Just go to where you came from. It most suitable.

[@EdOeuna]

With the fuel they had on board they could have flown to any eastern seaboard airport but they were obviously restricted by the GG’s.

[@lebojay]

@@EdOeuna But I woulda thought ATC would know about it. I’m not saying they should’ve gone there; I just wonder why it wasn’t offered as an option.

[@albertotognoni4819]

It stinks a lot of a hydraulic issue, and 45 mins for dumping that means they have jettisoned a lot of fuel possibly more than 50 thousand litres

[@Williamb612]

Control tower guy keeps saying “no worries”….maybe he doesn’t have any, but the pilot can’t land on the runway he needs, has a flap failure, is dumping fuel and has horses on board…there may be some worries for him

[@loretta1971]

"No worries" means "don't worry about our side, we have you covered".

[@blackjackAY]

Horses have souls too 😢

[@demi3115]

3 POB on board what did you say? 3 pob was that 3? affirm. Are muricans deaf?

[@CozzaNess]

That controller really needs to pay more attention - the crew stated pretty clearly what they wanted to do a few times but he was still questioning them. Professional from the Martinair crew, the controller not so much.

[@JohnSmith-zi9or]

I think the controller did just fine. The crew used words like "probably" regarding whether they would be returning or not. He did everything they asked. Sometimes trying to understand a situation and relaying it over a radio isn't easy. Just because WE hear it (recorded at an unknown location), doesn't mean the controller heard it because radios don't always work due to all kinds of interferences (the airplane position/bank angle, another aircraft or radio stepping on the person transmitting, atmospherics, noise in the room etc.etc.). I'm not a 747 typed pilot, I have flown other heavies. I am curious why 8R wouldn't be long enough (yet they landed on it) and they thought they would have hot brakes and possibly close down the runway but none of that happened? Did they not want to dump the amount of fuel required to safely land on 8R in order to save money?

[@Michael_K_Woods]

@@JohnSmith-zi9orthey likely want to avoid the lengthy fuel dumping. Pilots are always biased to get the plane on the ground when there is an emergency. The idea of dumping fuel for 45 minutes isn’t exactly appealing.

[@rickpaige130]

The controller was very lackadaisical about the situation. "No Worries" is crappy phraseology! Never once did he make a required transmission that fuel dumping was in progress. The county couldn't open a runway when they're changing out lights. Sadly work ethic in aviation is deteriorating. Glad to be retired. ATC 1977-2008.

[@JohnSmith-zi9or]

@@rickpaige130 You put a lot of faith in that these recreations are exactly what happened. I assure you, VASaviation's channel takes liberties, time compresses, omits communications and sometimes changes the events to make it more clickbaitable. I've caught him doing just that! Regarding the fuel dump call, was there anyone else in his airspace? If not, who cares? Again, it may have been omitted here or they may have been on a discreet frequency. You don't know what the extent of replacing the lights on runway 09 was. If the runway lights were out of service, they can't land on it. Those pesky FARs. So why you scoffed at the idea but we don't know the extent of what was going on at the time.

[@rickpaige130]

@JohnSmith-zi9or regardless if the closest aircraft is 500 miles away it is required that the controller makes a transmission that there is fuel dumping in progress. When there are 100's of square miles of water to dump fuel over why in the hell would you dump over a populated area. This entire evolution was handled poorly by the controller! By chance are you a controller sir?

[@UnshavenStatue]

ATC talking a bit much, but otherwise did well. I sensed a bit of frustration from the pilots about ATC asking redundant questions but i suppose that's par for the course with shitty ass analog radios

[@darinhughes7798]

ATC sounds stoned?

[@hightechcarpentry]

I think they're hiring any warm body they can find these days...

[@batshevanivylerner8582]

ATC was unimpressive to say the least. Given that Miami is usually my entry point to the USA, it's not very reassuring.

[@Success_Loves_Speed]

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