Your Software Is Spying On You

[@richardengkraf7040]

This is the last video of yours that I will ever watch. I can"t believe you put Vivaldi in the group of spies like you did. Bye.

[@DistroTube]

Vivaldi is proprietary software. You don't know what proprietary software is doing because you can't audit the code. That being said...there's the door. This channel will always champion FREE AND OPEN SOURCE software.

[@camaradamanuel5025]

@@DistroTube more like FLOSS: FREE LIBRE OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE

[@zen608]

@@DistroTube You just gained my subscription. Vivaldi is shady.

[@patriotic1526]

Why do people seem to announce when they "leave?" I appreciate DT with his gracious response as he is a public figure and is a bit restricted as to how he can approach his responses. That said: I dont have to be. BRUH, if you're going to act like a little dramatic bish, by all means fk the fk right the fk off. You don't have to make some drama queenstyle announcement. That is how my teenage daughter acts. Are you a teenage lil bish? If not, act accordingly. We know you still lurk anyway. Ever try a counter argument rather than acting like a lil bish? Just a thought... This is why the world needs Fathers in the household, imho. Keeps dudes from acting like women who het hurt by opinions lol. Good lord..

[@PhayzinOut]

Begone, Vivaldi spy

[@alexxx4434]

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you."

[@lupanama1960]

"if you don't agree with the agreement they want, don't use their services"

[@melgibson6331]

@Ch Pe Kurdt kobain...Nirvana

[@teknastyk]

#paranoidbychoice

[@ethicalrevolution3294]

It used to be if you said stuff about electronic devices spying on you you would be locked up in the psych ward. Now it's reality.

[@Pohnees]

@Original Gamer Says the person that obviously doesn't care about their privacy...

[@joshr96]

Telemetry can be a powerful tool for developers when performing user research. BUT it should be 100% opt in only and transparent on what we intend to do with the data. We need to rethink how we do this in a way that doesn't upload every action and provides a audit on what can be done with the data. A reporting solution that is open and transparent with users.

[@FordExplorer-rm6ew]

I'm in webdev space and I try to show / warn my friends about this all the time. Everything I do on a website down to database reads and request logging, they're aware of. At least they're more educated on how it all works, and can beware things like FB and insta, because they're not going to be as transparent as a fren.

[@mberlinger3]

I'm not actually sure about that. I think opt in telemetry is actually counter intuitive. If you want to have privacy companies should respect that and let you opt outbut the data can be used to affect real world change and most people don't care about their data. Moreover you are usually exchanging a portion of your privacy for convenience. Free software is usually not "free with no strings". It's the users choice to not read EULAs and give away their data in exchange for let's say a gmail account.

[@l4kr]

@@mberlinger3 Telemetry should be off by default and hidden in the settings. Sane defaults.

[@dxo6863]

From a development viewpoint, telemetry is a very positive thing, I don't think many would disagree with that. The problem is, like you said, that developers enable telemetry by default, and don't notify the user about it. Telemetry should always be optional and disabled by default. Asking if it's OK to send this info to the developers is fine.

[@user-tm3fz7qx3s]

Agreed

[@CaffeinatedTech]

If its for the purpose of support. Then ask to collect the data at the point the user requests support. If its to know how people use your application and better improve your product, then just ask people. Taking that information is lame.

[@michaelchalupiak7272]

Windows Users: First time?

[@michaelchalupiak7272]

@HaloBaller9813 They can override VPNs? Now that should be illegal

[@michaelchalupiak7272]

@Rahmi Acar I'm surprised more antitrust cases havent been filed against Google, Microsoft, and Apple

[@michaelchalupiak7272]

@Rahmi Acar Thats a good point

[@teknastyk]

@@michaelchalupiak7272 man.. by this time its like suing your own government.

[@exconfessor3639]

I think software should not only ask user if he is okay with collecting some telemetry data, but also show collected data in a *readable format* every time before sending it and ask for confirmation again.

[@bjornarsimonsen7592]

Should also add that "telemetry" in open source software is usually more benign, exactly because it is open source which adds an incentive to not be too malicious, since people will see exactly what it is doing.

[@user-tm3fz7qx3s]

Some of the open software that does upload telemetry lets you see exactly what's going to be sent before you allow the data to be uploaded.

[@twb0109]

@@user-tm3fz7qx3s Most ask you if you're okay with it, if you're not, you can't deny it

[@IAMSolaara]

Google is recording your audio because they want in on some early access DT goodness

[@bobgrimes8618]

OS/2 never spied on me, I still run this on an old T-60 Thinkpad.

[@ohio2440]

Nice.

[@jeanpottam6080]

My Apple // never spied on me. Pirated software on floppy disks sent by mail were a sure thing then (for the older generation, do you remember Locksmith which could copy tracks bit by bit, even track 0?)

[@jeffherdzina6716]

Break out the Aluminum foil and wrap it tight!! Being a Linux Admin even for an Insurance company, we collect a lot of data. and watch what browsers people use. DT is telling the truth !!

[@vram1974]

Floodgates opened with MS and XP activation.

[@JoeSmith-pu9hi]

That was pushed me to Linux.

[@oliwiernowicki]

Yeah... old good permaban in XP 🤠

[@ejbully]

Wireshark. Thankfully I left windows for a safer work environment. 180 from proprietary into open source projects

[@patoloco1000]

Great video. Lots of people don't care about being spied on because they see themselves as consumers and not as persons anymore. A consumer is basically a machine, like a car, it consumes gasoline. A person is someone who has a choice, and he/she can even decide not to consume food and water and die. In other words, a consumer is a robot, a person is a being, and beings should be free.

[@newvocabulary]

I think it's because they can't see what's collected. It all happens transparently, and they hear "your software is spying on you" and they don't really equate it with the massive tables of data that they'd be adverse to if they were actually able to see and browse through it. To them it's some intangible concept, so they don't fully understand the issue.

[@SkeletonSyskey]

There is only one reason to use Edge, To download firefox.

[@SkeletonSyskey]

@Its GNU /Freedom Good Point. But there are times when I use a Windows VM in virtualbox.

[@AssemblyWizard]

The problem is that people expect service and support and bug fixes and performance improvements without any telemetry or submitting bug reports or whatever. If most people would have taken 5 minutes to fill in a form on how you use a software, we wouldn't need telemetry. People expect Waze to tell them where accidents are without them reporting one when they see one. The entire problem is selfish people, so you either need to add a barrier to entry to filter people, or add telemetry.

[@AssemblyWizard]

Regarding the problem of not disclosing the usage of telemetry, I think the best solution is for the telemetry to be reported to a public server (e.g. available for all to see on GitHub), but the same users who are against telemetry are also the ones who want privacy. You can't have it all, not because they don't want you to, but because of the nature of this problem. You either know they can't sell it but your data is public, or the opposite.

[@AssemblyWizard]

Instead of complaining about a problem, give a solution. Try maintaining a popular software product and see if you keep the same opinions. It's like saying food should never have calories while still expecting the food companies to make food that gives you energy. .

[@justsomeguy8385]

This was a great video. People really need to start being aware of this, or at least, caring about it. I'm so tired of people pretending like this is paranoia. Maybe they should take down their curtains because they obviously don't care that much about privacy.

[@melgibson6331]

Those accusations are made by the same types that are blocking poll watchers from watching the votes get counted.

[@halikular]

I just think it's so hard for people to care about privacy and surveillance because it's so alien to us. We never notice when it's happening, we never know the consequences nor do we get to see them. We can't measure it and no one seems to have a big actual problem with it, they have never met anyone who has had a problem with it. For normal people this can be something like leaked conversations and pictures, yet everyone believes it's safe because it's never happened to them. They also think what are they going to do with my data, it's nothing interesting, I have nothing to hide. I kind of feel it too, I wouldn't care if google knew I was watching cringe like anime, but I would care if my family and friends would know. Google is far of in space and has nothing to do with me. You become anonymous in all the noise. I could run naked on the street in a foreign city because I know I will never see this people again. Would I do it in my city? Hell no, you could be recognized.

[@aphextwin8520]

Exactly

[@MarkHobbes]

"I could run naked on the street in a foreign city because I know I will never see this people again." What if someone from this foreign city records you while running naked and then uploads it to KZbin, so it magically gets viral or it goes straight for your family or friends? Everyone has smartphone in their hands today. To record video, audio or take pictures is easy.

[@aphextwin8520]

@@MarkHobbes you shouldn't take it that seriously it's just a metaphor

[@MarkHobbes]

@@aphextwin8520 Privacy should be take seriously.

[@bobpeters61]

And you just elaborated on the reason why after years of dual-booting mostly Ubuntu as a weird toy with Windows, I got fed up and completed my migration to Linux. Ironically, Ubuntu is now low on my list of distro preferences. That said, the last straw was when, using a 4 year old home build, Windows 10 started persistently forcing updates to an incompatible driver for my Intel integrated graphics. I would download and re-install the proper driver from Intel and Windows would almost immediately, and quicker every time, force another update to the incompatible driver that broke my graphics. But then, at the same time, a competing "last straw" also came up when out of curiosity I used gParted Live to look at my internal storage drives and noticed an added unidentifiable partition with Microsoft's name on it and little else added to each one, even at the cost of corrupting a couple of my files. Using Windows 10 upgraded from a Windows 8.1 retail, I figured I still had Microsoft Tech Support and called in just to see what their employee had to say in their defense of those issues: just a round of trying to shame me for using old hardware. So I made a point to tell the jerk that my takeaway was that I needed to complete my migration to Linux and never buy another Microsoft license again and to please pass that information on to his superiors.

[@marioschroers7318]

Mac OS 11 was my initial thought as soon as I saw the thumbnail. Two years or so ago, a good friend of mine predicted that it's only a matter of time before Mac OS would become as bad as Windows in terms of privacy. And here we go. I have become a lot more concerned about privacy and the importance of Free Software ever since switching systems. Thank God for people like Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman, Eric S. Raymond and other people who make it possible to have an alternative. *Edit:* I agree with your statement that telemetry does not by definition disqualify a piece of software as being FOSS, since that definition only considers the availability and free distribution of the code, but is highly problematic. I assume that maybe this level of surveillance hasn't been considered when laying out these licenses and their respective concepts. Redefining the term FOSS does come to mind, but it brings a dilemma: If you prohibit the use of the software for specific purposes, there is likely no reason not to restrict its use for other purposes as well, for example the design of technical weapons. This way, we might end up with endless lists of prohibited use.

[@marioschroers7318]

@Its GNU /Freedom That's the good thing about it :)

[@fubuh8r]

While watching this video, youtube already knows what to recommend we watch next.

[@someonehere4380]

watch him on LBRY

[@FreeMan-wz3hj]

Derek it goes even deeper than that, the new MacOS logs every single piece of software that you and every time you use it. If their third party data collecting server is down your apps wont even load. Not only that, they're logging IP addresses everytime you open a program to track your location in real time. Plus the new Macbooks will not allow any other OS to be installed, they will brick for "security reasons".

[@ilhamadiputra4745]

Wait, seriously you can't bootcamp in new macbook?

[@FreeMan-wz3hj]

@@ilhamadiputra4745 From what I understand no, until the hackers find a workaround. Also the new macbook is using ARM so good luck with that. I'll use thinkpads and rasberry pi's.

[@Speykious]

I do agree that telemetry should never go beyond being an opt-in, but redefining FOSS is in my view completely unnecessary. Open-source doesn't have to mean anything else than literally the source being open to the public.

[@ApocOfWind]

Exactly, that's why OSS and FOSS are two different things.

[@Speykious]

@@ApocOfWind I guess we could argue that the word "free" here has enough ambiguity for us to question its precise definition... But for me it always was in the context of money and nothing else.

[@williambaldwin9346]

So NOT Firefox, does any FOSS browser sync everything as well as Google Chrome does? So I can go from my laptops, to my work computer, to my parents computer and have all my stuff?

[@Amos_Huclkeberry]

I use Visible as my cell phone company. If they supported all phones I'd be using a Pinephone now, but they support a very limited number of devices, and only Android/iOS because their company software is required to set up the service. If only there were other cell phone companies that allowed any phone and offered unlimited mobile hotspot for the same price.

[@gabinohernandezgodinez6632]

I'm getting addicted to your videos!!!!

[@krzysztofwaleska]

I fully support your point of view. It's 100% compatibile with me. Big thanks for expressing it here!

[@Noodles.FreeUkraine]

On the one hand I'd like to keep seeing you push this issue, on the other hand I'd hate to see you accidentally disappear in the back of a black van one day. 😋

[@d3stinYwOw]

About cars - you have black boxes in them since 15+ years, which record some stuff. Additionally, from 1st hand - spying in the cars comes from OEMs like TMC or Stellantis if they add it of course ;)

[@greenshootstv4117]

You speak so much truth. That's why I got rid of windows long time ago! Disgraceful. What do you say to people who reply "you've got nothing to worry about if your not doing anything wrong "?

[@tuxpowerpc]

You'll never be able to avoid it 100% Derek as you know. You smart TV's listen to you as well as your modern vehicles now a days with satellite technology. Even if you do not subscribe to it does not mean there is no access, trust me on that one, especially when manufacturers can run over the air patches without your knowledge. As for these other points you make, yes a concerted effort to choose wisely will help reduce some of this eavesdropping.

[@jeanpottam6080]

The best thing to do is to have on the Internet no device, except Linux laptop/desktop. The worse being an Android or Apple phone/tablet.

[@FranLMSP]

People know that the software is spying on them, they just don't care, and that's the real concern

[@jgj4430]

Unfortunately, many company policies don't allow for users to use software of their choice. It's in a company list of "required software".

[@yjk_ch]

Even if a FOSS software was spyware, you could simply remove it if you have skills to do so, and even distribute the modified version.

[@0__alfie__0]

When I tell my mum that most apps/software track your every move she isn’t surprised 😂

[@IcoKirov]

i don't think it should be opt in. people will almost never choose it this way. they will just click next to continue faster. and yes, this "surveillance", when done the right way, helps the devs figure out some bugs. the opt out is also bad since people who don't pay attention and don't know will miss it and maybe they don't want to do it. for me this should be an option during installation, that let you choose between the two. none of the option is selected by default, and having you to choose one of the two to proceed. the first option should be the opt out (so it's easier to choose and continue) and the second to opt in. also they should be clear at what information they are collecting and when/under what circumstances. this way it won't really matter that much in the end for the people who care about those stuff. but more people will actually consider it and opt in/out consciously.

[@nachnamevorname9801]

There should be a law forcing companies to explain what exactly is being tracked with their telemetry solution. E.G. Facebook and Oculus Quest 2 Telemetry: They say that they are tracking environmental data, but what exactly does that mean? Do they just want to know you play area size? Or do they scan your whole room? Do they listen to everything that is being said? Their definition is not nearly enough declaration of what is being tracked. I'd love to habe a mandatory button in the settings of an app or plattform which lists EACH AND EVERY datapoint that is being tracked.

[@Ju13n1s2e9]

This summer the norwegian tv channel nrk actually exposed an actual worst case scenario regarding hidden data collection from various apps. Turns out this data was possible to buy and they was even able to see in clear travel patterns of higher ranking officers and their whereabouts. That is scary. . .

[@sigmundfreud4472]

I disagree, I think. I have no problem with ethical telemetry. It’s important to me to allow users to provide feedback and bug reports easily. Not everyone knows or wants to file an issue on GitHub, and all feedback is useful.

[@ergpopler413]

I am working on making an OS from scratch(in rust) If i were to ever give it to anyone, i would have telemetry in it, it is crucial for development.

[@_vsnwprintf_s_l]

Do you still believe it should disqualify if it asks you up front telling you exactly what it does and it will not report anything unless you opt in (and does not attempt to trick you into opting in)?

[@kdemetter]

10:21 Problem is, what you do mean by 'surveillance' . Because if you take the definition, then having logging is surveillance, because you are typically recording a timestamp and some metadata that might be helpful when debugging problems. The problem isn't that something is being logged. It's what is being logged. There shouldn't be any personally identifiable information being logged, and there shouldn't be any real content logged. That last part unfortunately can become impossible if you are creating a product that depends on the data to improve itself ( like say speech recognition software) . The solution in that case might be to explicitly ask for it ( and not require it) , and explain the policy of how the data is stored, used and deleted afterwards. That way, you can make the decision yourself, and everyone can still benefit from it.

[@Artoooooor]

Assumption that proprietary software spies on you just because you cannot see its source is like assumption that your neighbour builds an atomic bomb in their bathroom. You cannot see what he is doing... Telemetry is only a problem when used in a wrong way - for example to serve you "better" ads. Usage statistics on the other hand are really useful - you can decide which of the features should be developed with the highest priority.

[@krikuff]

Every bigbrained programmer in this thread says that "the fact of telemetry is not a deal, the thing is what information is logged". No, even if you started a piece of software and just that fact is transmitted somewhere, even this little timestamp and some internal variables (not your personal data or computer configuration), this is literally surveillance. Because if me, the developer, wanted to just know the percentage of, say, crashes after the program starts, this information is going to the network and can be collected by anyone. The fact of traffic going from this IP to that IP, pulsation of the traffic from your computer. Network connections are just not secure. Let me show you how telemetry of normal people looks like: The app logs what it wants locally. And there is a button in settings menu called "Form the telemetry archive". You manually press that button (or set that flag) and now you have a archive file that contains human-readable text logs. Then you contact the developer and decide how to transmit that file to them. 1. You can see what is logged before sending that data. 2. The channel of transmission is not done by the developer so he can't hide anything.

[@yakimura96]

It's hard to live nowadays without getting our privacy violated, this shit is fucked up in a point beyond return

[@Rennacius]

I enjoyed very much listening to you. Thank you!

[@princemj]

My School Uses Google Meet... I'M SCARED :P

[@robertwaters3638]

If I could choose I would prefer Google Meet over things like MS Teams or Zoom, Google is already one big company that lives out of spying you, but at least some of their money goes to the development of their open-source projects like AOSP, Chromium, Android Studio etc. What kind of open-source projects does Zoom or Microsoft have? Okay, MS have VSC, but it is anyway distributed under EULA and people needs to bypass that licensing by creating FOSS forks...

[@jb_lofi]

Don't use it for anything. Schools have done everything from from turning on webcams in students' bedrooms to trawling their social media and punishing them for things out of their jurisdiction. Don't say anything private around a device given to you by school, tape over the camera when it's not in use, etc. You won't be in school forever, beware of the normalisation of this stuff.

[@princemj]

@@jb_lofi Thanks For The Advice :D

[@hamobu]

I don't mind anonymous telemetry for research purposes, for debugging, etc. What bugs me is marketing, lock in, up-sell, etc. I have to set my my father's new Win 10 laptop and you can't uninstall edge, it's hard and risky to get rid of Cortana, etc.

[@ravenblackfeather9286]

Telemetry in and of itself, when implemented transparently and with the collection of minimal data isn't an issue with me for free and open-source software. However, there is a caveat to my statement - I believe any telemetry that may be included in the program should be opt-in by default, and not opt-out.

[@MyReviews_karkan]

I have been fighting spying so hard, I am just waiting for linux phones to be mainstream so I can rid myself of everything android.

[@someonehere4380]

try flashing a custom rom a de-googled android

[@geeshta]

The Dolphin Emu asked me if I wanted to send anonymous usage data and I opted in because it's such a cool piece of software and I hope it helps them with further development.

[@MarkusBurrer]

Telemetry is not bad by default. Can be helpful for both sides. The problem is that on side can use the data for more

[@paullemmermann5993]

Yeah, I hate that my school makes me use the proprietary and nonfree ChromeOS and Chrome Browser, and the Chromebook is a locked down piece of garbage so I cannot enable the Linux feature

[@user-tm3fz7qx3s]

Same here! They don't even allow us to use our personal laptops most of the time because they aren't as locked down and surveilled as the Chromebooks and they might not be able to put their proprietary testing and monitoring software on them.

[@adriaandeclercq1766]

DT: I apologise for my lack of research if you've deal with this in a previous video, but what cellphone setup do you use? Cellphones being the primary way our info leaks, what have you come up with to deal with it?

[@oscarrzga4615]

Nothing

[@seelensand]

We recently bought a shiny new TV and when I went zapping through the channels guess what I got: A cookie popup for a TV channel, asking if I was okay with a god damn TV channel storing cookies on my TV! Didn't realize the mess that is the web today started leaking into our TVs too.. The next channel then displayed ads in my TV, they were not embedded in the video itself but my TV executed code from the channel and displayed ads for a few seconds (you could notice because it took a second for them to popup and they were really slow to load and it was awfully clear that my TV was displaying them).

[@CknSalad]

Lol yeah...’smart’ tv. Even the robot vacuum like the roombas with camera load your home layout plan to their db...

[@fabricio5p]

Javascript itself is not a problem. Theres only so much JS can take from your browser. The real issue are social media trackers that turn your anonymous data actually personal

[@SYS_Alberto]

*@Fabricin* _"Javascript itself is not a problem."_ Dissagree, javascript should be deprecated.

[@thomasfoissy4829]

"Because we don't have anything to hide !"

[@thomasfoissy4829]

@Online Privacy Needed The thing is on top of that, people generally don't care as long as nothing illegal is done with their data (Theft of bank data for example).

[@hiddingclover]

"So you don't mind me following you when you go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet? Because you have nothing to hide, you know."

[@jb_lofi]

@Online Privacy Needed A much better example is frankly the history of activism in the United States (because it'll hit far harder than something as extreme as Stalinist USSR). You think the US government is above that sort of thing? I don't care what kind of crazy brainwashed patriot you are, the US government has spied non, smeared, and worse, every single civil rights movement that we today consider to have been totally just and right in their cause. Not to mention how easily any third party could get their hands on "lawfully acquired" data or backdoors. It should be clear that privacy matters, and "oh I've got nothing to hide!" is an asinine, bootlicking excuse regardless of where you live.

[@jb_lofi]

@@hiddingclover "So it's cool if I point my telescope and wall-penetrative parabolic microphones at your house and hear everything you do and steal glances through open windows or when you use the pool? You know, it'll be your fault if you leave your windows open a crack while you're changing. What? What have you got to hide?"

[@riverlefae2047]

_Looks at my Arch build with system-wide TOR_ Pretty sure it isn't...

[@amosnimos]

Apple official statement "don't cover your camera, it`s euh... bad for the sensor."

[@BryanJenks]

Seriously man. Hearing about the Apple Spookiness.... i blocked the Big Sur update, looking at that Little Snitch program to block the traffic on Catalina, Once I'm done with this Mac for school, I'm building my Arch Desktop Rig. Eff this spookiness.

[@MassimilianoAdamo1967]

hey DT, have you never spoken about cloud closed source toys (particularly AWS ones, like S3, dynamodb, loadbalancer, aurora... ). Are they putting the Open Source Initiative in danger in your opinion? cheers!

[@igorgiuseppe1862]

"discord record everything you say, and its recording the video" if its the native client, it may be recording, but if you use it on a browser it cant acess you camera and mic unless you allow it to acess. sure they will spy on your conversations, but its not an big issue if you use discord just to play and use something else when you need to have privacy.

[@pillmuncher67]

From the top of my head i can only think of two industries who call their customers users... oh, well.

[@doktorparadox1791]

I support DTs argument. Time for redefinition what's free and opensource.

[@FordExplorer-rm6ew]

A good example is a discord call. What's to stop someone from opening up wireshark and grabbing all the IPs in the call. IPs are still public info so not illegal. But i agree. Bad precedents have been set. I try to be as transparent as possible with my friends but many of them aren't into software so the issues become hard to explain.

[@someonehere4380]

what does getting an ip of someone help? tf? you just get what city they're in

[@joschafinger126]

If telemetry were limited to stuff such as sending the KDEnlive coordinating team the info that the current version tends to crash on Manjaro with this-and-that kernel and on this-and-that hardware when combining mp4, mkv and jpg video tracks while rendering as webm ...(a year ago I had a problem like that), really anonymously and opt-in, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Automated beta testing beyond release and no ID data, great. Trouble is, does that kind of thing even exist anymore?

[@igorgiuseppe1862]

as for those who say: "if you have nothing to hide, there is nothing to be afraid of" what if you are jew? could you have predicted that just because you were an normal person, some one would come after you? or if you are black? or anything? people dont need an reason to come after you.

[@donjon61]

Having seen Hypernormalization this hits hard again. Spying on us usually makes us anxious. But for some reasons we finally approach solutions that spy on us an are then okay with it. It becomes hypernormal. I can't emphasize enough how abnormal it is people tend to use proprietary software without second though. You just can't talk to them about it. If they like their Google Chrome they just continue to use it even when they already know better.

[@necrobynerton7384]

I'll be honest, im one of those people. Reason i dont want to talk about it because ill have to spend way too much time to look for alternatives and sometimes (let's be real here) not every app has all functions i need and not every pc can handle having a different app for different function. Like many said, its the path of least resistance. I do want to be more cautious about my privacy but it is extremely hard to be, because everything i already have is spying on me and I just simply have to be an expert to pick out everything that is spying and replace it or not use it at all. That takes a lot of time. We just have to accept it. The only method for me to be spyware free would also be to just simply abandon tech and live like amish people or just leave society altogether and live in the woods somewhere. would i do that? no. Its especially hard when you have to use proprietary software for school/work, or when you are required to use a proprietary software for school/work. Not saying that you can't use something like, idk, a vm for that, but if your pc cant handle it, what other option besides having to deal with it? and that's coming from someone who tries to look for alternatives. when it comes to "path of least resistance", many would prefer something that just works and is KNOWN to work just because they don't know better. Yes i know you didn't say that but it is how it is.

[@PatrikKron]

I can see the point of developers receiving messages when their software crash. But I don’t want any software that send it automatically. If I can see exactly what will be sent, and asked every time, I will most likely send it. Preferably I would also be able to send it over tor (as an option), so that it’s anonymized for real.

[@4445hassan]

I believe telemetry is a good reason for a software not being "Free". After all you pay with your data!! I believe opt in telemetry is ok. For instance the Debian package popularity contest is definitely ok, it says what it does, it is opt in (asks while installing) and gives you the freedom ro to decide which of your data can be used.

[@arun3151997]

Didn't apple just respond to this? Again nice job blowing it out of proportion

[@arun3151997]

@Fine Wine for users in China* are you in China?

[@arun3151997]

@Fine Wine if you actually took the time to read an article you’d know that it’s access to the data of Chinese consumers and not all consumers. Are you using a fair phone? Have you bought anything from china? You’re doing it as well

[@arun3151997]

@Fine Wine and also it’s interesting that you didn’t mention apple’s response to the allegations of some random blog but instead started talking about some other part of apple

[@arun3151997]

@Fine Wine and what proof do you have of that? I’m gonna assume that you use Linux. Unlike Linux on the desktop you can actually use macOS to get stuff done without spending half a working day trouble shooting.

[@arun3151997]

@Fine Wine Ive used linux distros, they mostly suck on the desktop, they're great in server environments but on the desktop they suck. Apps are of a lower quality, you barely get any creature comforts that the other OS'es give you, hardware support is terrible, sure printers work but if you have anything a bit more complex than that like a scanner or maybe a stream deck most of them just dont work. Lets say you wanna update just one app thats not an easy option get update updates the entire thing (who thought that that was a great idea) sucks, why do companies collect data in the first place? To improve their AI systems and to serve you ads, outside of the App Store apple doesn't have an ad service and Apples AI is far behind what google has been able to accomplish with its AI by using as much data as they can, So the question is why would they want your data? If they were monetising user data their services wouldnt be so expensive (iCloud) the part I dont like about this video is that apple themselves responded to this. there'sontop of vanilla android thats closed source and that infringes upon your privacy a shit ton more than apple does and there's concrete proof of this. So dont bring up android as a shining beacon of privacy when its not. doesn'tall the time

[@gemmakaru9685]

Oh No, I clicked subscribe and like on this video (hypothetically), now google knows I liked the video and the channel. I hope they don't sell that.

[@robsku1]

Great video, even if I don't fully agree with it. I mostly have telemetry turned off, but I think I have it on FireFox. I use NoScript, but planning to change that to umatrix to control what sites get to run scripts from what servers. Pages just don't work without javascript, and I don't think it's a bad technology, but it's often used for bad purposes and that's why the second addon I've always added to new browser installation is NoScript - 1st being ad blocker.

[@amigaworkbench720]

Telemetry is essentially what web trackers are but integrated into OS and masked by UX. This data is being sold as user profiling, marketing research, trends, spying... But if somebody is making money of my data, without my consent, how is this not equal to stealing? Governments don't care because they probably can get access to this data for free. Imagine an inventor working on invention her whole life while friends from MS/Apple/Whatever and getting all that work for free... Or some poor music producer working on song for months while friends from MS/Apple/Whatever are having access to all that work for free...

[@nemonada3501]

Because of all of that I now have two computers, my daily computer with Linux for everything I need, and the Windows computer, which is only for those programs that will only work under Windows, but that one has been stripped out so I am speculating that they will have problems getting some of the telemetry information from that computer at least. Either way, it doesn't go on the internet much.

[@KallMeChris]

I haven’t updated yet, don’t think I will. Thank you for the information/ heads up

[@perperikis5501]

Let's make a step back and think it over for a bit. Telemetry is just another word for practically beta testing a software and is not justified on a final product. Crash report is one thing, constant tracing and loging is another.

[@hopelessdecoy]

The definition of free often seems to mean freedom just for the user and controlling the creator who put in all the work. I hate telemetry too but if the dev wants it they're free to do it. Same with closed source, same with charging money, same with licenses.

[@edalder2000]

That MacOS has telemetry does not shock me. What gets me is that every program and app has to "phone home" to Apple servers before even being allowed to open. That's every single time!

[@martinsauer4854]

That would mean that you can’t use any Mac apps when not connected to the internet Which is not true since you can use Mac apps offline Therefore your statement is not true

[@johnconnery7547]

@@martinsauer4854 Actually from what I've read, the Mac only phones home while online.

[@Yukeake]

This isn't true. What's happening is that the application's developer certificate (which is used to cryptographically sign the application) is being validated. This happens using a known, open protocol known as OCSP (Open Certificate Status Protocol). The way this works is that a hash signature of the certificate is sent to an OSCP server, which then returns a "Yes this is valid" or "No this has been revoked/has expired" response. This occurs unencrypted, because it's used to verify the integrity of the certificates used to encrypt HTTP communication. Requiring it to be encrypted would introduce a circular dependency. In the case of Apple, they're using the protocol correctly. This check does not occur every time an application is run. It does occur the first time it's run. After that there's some time gap between checks, no matter how often you open the application. Additionally, if the OSCP server can't be reached, the check is supposed to silently fail and go with the last response it got (unless the certificate itself expired - but that information is local). The reason this didn't happen last week was that the server was up, but was overloaded and so connections were timing out rather than being denied. The only two pieces of identifiable information being sent are the client IP address (which is sent to every server the client communicates with - that's how the internet works), and the hash of the developer cert (which is required in order to validate it). The hash is unique, and Apple would have the information to identify the developer. The client IP address is basically public information, but theoretically Apple could use it to identify a specific user, if they use other Apple services. There's no currently available information to support whether Apple does, or does not relate this information. They probably do log it, at least for diagnostic purposes, as you would traffic to/from most any server that you're maintaining. From what's been discussed, it doesn't look to me like there's anything outwardly shady or malicious going on. Most likely until this concern was raised, Apple didn't view this as a security/privacy issue - they were using an open protocol to validate certificates, in the manner that was intended. It's important that the possibility for abuse was identified and reported, because they can do better at anonymizing this sort of thing. But, this looks like a case of over-reacting and attributing malice where ignorance is at fault to me. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem - as I said, they can do better - just that I doubt this was a flaw anyone even thought of until the timeout issue last week.

[@wojtekburzynski654]

The simplest solution is to not use internet at all. But is it really a solution? Technically yes, you can live without internet at all, and you can do perfectly fine, but i don't want to live like that. And i think this is why people are comfortable with spying - they treat it like price to pay for convenience. I think just using FOSS software without telemetry is not a solution - we need really strong, global, legal regulations of data collection. And we need some alternative way to pay for internet maintenance. Most websites are "free" to access, but at the cost of ads and telemetry. But without them lot of valuable sites would fall.

[@JessicaFEREM]

I would rather use a skinned Linux DE than use MacOS obviously.

[@FeedScrn]

The Linux Foundation and other similar groups should be addressing this problem.... Canonical / System76, etc can jump in at any time.... - SystemD?

[@LeMeccerino]

>nobody understands the dangers of proprietary software mfw that I have to use windows 10 for work

[@Neko-kun-dp1hq]

Wait until you hear about sites that don't open on modern browsers because they need flash to work and that's why Internet Explorer is still used in so many places.

[@jb_lofi]

Enterprise versions of Windows may actually be more secure, and now that I think about it, I think they are; you have way more control over updates and telemetry and shit like Cortana when you're talking about a domain computer. Makes sense. Microsoft doesn't want IBM to discover them trespassing on corporate secrets. Individual people who likely can't afford even the most open-shut-case legal battle, however? Well. Well.

[@IwinMahWay]

@@jb_lofi i too use the ltsc version. Its great.

[@meyimagalot9497]

I always agree to share debugging info and Im happy to help developers.

[@IndellableHatesHandles]

Use Linux, something like Waterfox, and a VPN if you're concerned, but don't openly express fear of it. That's what they want.

[@someonehere4380]

you think a vpn will prevent spyware? LOL its the vpn who keeps logs of your activity

[@LeonWhites_Darkspace]

There are plenty of open source projects with no telemetry that is added into their official binaries. There is no way to prove the binary you downloaded is running off of the source code you audited.

[@matteavana2384]

Is there a free license that doesn't have spywares as written in the license?

[@ethicalrevolution3294]

What about if you develop a computer game, you need some information about when people quit playing the game, what parts they have difficulty with, etc. This kind of data benefits the end user, because then the developer can solve problems with the game.

[@someonehere4380]

this data you're talking abt is anonymous but the data he is talking about have personal identifiers

[@0netom]

Is hacker a negative word? Non-technical news certainly turned it into one. It feels like you're also attaching a negative connotation to the word telemetry. Most software on spaceships and aircrafts in general or cargo vessels is telemetry software... Your message could be a lot simpler: People, please ask yourselves, what is being metered and who is that data being reported to? When it comes to "desktop software", be suspicious about telemetry, because it often oversteps ethical/moral boundaries. That's it. No need to smear the meaning of telemetry and spread FUD, by equating it to spyware...

[@amosnimos]

What about integrated proprietary firmware? could it spy on people?

[@johanrg70]

Sorry, but the information about MacOS sending telemetry back to Apple has been exaggerated because people doesn't understand what it does. I'm not defending the system for reasons I'll come back to later, but what it ACTUALLY does is the following; Before an app is opened it extracts the certificate that is added to it, this is a developer certificate that identifies the creator of the app, for example Adobe, Mozilla or whatever. This information is then sent to Apple to verify that it hasn't been revoked or expired, if it hasn't it flags OK and the app opens. It does not send private information back, only the certificate, it does not send what app has been opened, nor does it contain your location. Location can of course to some extent be extracted from the IP, but that's besides the point. This is hardly telemetry, it's not good for other reasons, but it's not telemetry. So what's not good about this system? Well, since all apps must have a valid certificate to work properly and Apple controls the certificates... Apple can at any point and for any reason stop all apps you built from working and ban you from releasing any new ones. There are of course AT THIS TIME ways around it, but there are some complications involved which essentially blocks you as a developer from the platform. This is in my opinion the discussion that is needed, not privacy in this case since no private information is really sent, just a third-party certificate. IMO Apple should not have this control, and will of course claim that it's not what it's intended for, but it can be used for it and most likely has been.

[@jeanpottam6080]

What proof do we have?Their word is not enough.

[@johanrg70]

@@jeanpottam6080 I've looked at the data myself, it's a hashed developer certificate sent as a base64 encoded url in a HTTP get request. Nothing else in it.

[@bobgrimes8618]

What happened to Kell of Devils? That was my favorite of your patron names.

[@rustprogrammer]

Usually I love DT. but I think his opinions would change greatly if he had experience writing large scale software.

[@rustprogrammer]

@Online Privacy Needed yeah, I guess. I guess my experience was a little different. Personally, I actually use suckles software for this exact reasons. i hate it when I need to use zoom for school/work.

[@satria3001Al]

Now Opera browser is also spying??...Wow! I never knew that, and I never use it either, except nowadays for its vpn...

[@someonehere4380]

its not even a real vpn

[@send2gl]

Good comments and agree with your sentiments. Do think one has to be sensible and, to use an old English phrase, don't cut your nose to spite your face. We get a lot of convenience for a good price nowadays so be aware and maybe accept some.

[@harshphysik]

DT, live a doubt regarding chromium. I read somewhere that even if you use chromium, when you log into gmail, youtube then they take you to google system and then they track you through these system. Is it true? These daya even if you use trusted distros still no guarentee of security and privacy.

[@Mathias-bz2kr]

If you use the no script exstension, there are google related trackers everywhere, and this is from a firefox user

[@harshphysik]

@@Mathias-bz2kr I've hardly used Firefox. When I used it few times on Linux Mint, i felt it's boring. I don't know how is it now but accustomed to chromium, i want it secured

[@volhodav]

Yeah, ok, disable javascript = goodbye internet!

[@cezarygrzanka4229]

Pls. Try to understand that Chrome/Chromium has: 1. Best support in WebTechnologies like vuejs or other frontend frameworks and also brings new things into web, other engines, even like Firefox sucks in that 2. Amazing synchronization between devices. I would like to switch into Brave instead of gchrome, but i can't easli sync my passwords and plugins (and wallet in case of brave.

[@Audiojack_]

Firefox has a pretty good sync now, I was positively surprised and was finally able to switch over. But I understand where you're coming from, I stayed on Chrome for a long time because of some user experience issues with other browsers.

[@krikuff]

If you store passwords in Chrome then this video is not yet for you

[@cezarygrzanka4229]

@@Audiojack_ Propably FF Has good sync now. But still. Some new features doesn't works well, ofc, in production, you have to make website working on all popular browsers... but for dev... you know. Also, brave has terrible sync based on P2P? Something like this, i would like to have option to sync my Google Account with brave or atleast f.e github gits to sync extensions, settings and wallet.

[@cezarygrzanka4229]

@@krikuff Ehhh, soo, tell me, what google will do with my encypted password, what can't do with my main email on Gmail?

[@krikuff]

If so, you are right, the main gmail account is much worse. Every email text is analyzed ( for example to put your events to the gcalendar ). This means they can automatically detect and collect such abstract things as meetings, plans, every money transaction. Google can understand that. Again, only you think that your passwords are stored encrypted locally. In reality they can take those passwords since it flows through proprietary code. Your inability to say what a transcontinental corporation can do with millions of decrypted passwords doesn't mean the don't know what to do

[@akashmanjunath2505]

tbh, it's not a spyware for sure. Apple has never deployed a spyware. A spyware is when a software get personal passwords and other info WITHOUT the user knowing. Macos on the other hand directly states that it will use the info of user.

[@hennadiimelanich]

Yep, I also don't like when anyone violate my privacy. But, as time goes, I ask myself more and more the next question. Is it really better to spend my priceless time to improve my privacy a bit? What the worst can happen if my setup is not private enough?

[@JayCeeCreates]

Syndicates will come knocking at your door. They will make sure every single bit of confidential information (real name, address, credit card info) is collected, and sell those to people in dark alleys for more ads cuz more ads = more money /j