Yuval Noah Harari & Masha Gessen in conversation

Watch Yuval Noah Harari and Masha Gessen in conversation, presented by Munk Debates.
Yuval and Masha share their opinions on the future of democracy in a world of rising authoritarianism. What are the root causes of nations and people turning away from liberalism? How is social media affecting our democratic politics? Are populist politics incompatible with liberal democracy? And most of all, are you living in a dictatorship or not?

[@jaf7765]

Excellent discussion! I could listen to Masha and Yuval all day. Thank you.

[@cllr.azizdabakhgaye6890]

Very interesting and insightful exchanges. Thank you Yuval always, you’re appreciated. Love from Africa.

[@AnonyMous-ij8ri]

I love listening to Masha Gessen in both English and Russian. They're always very humble and gracious, and have a very sharp mind. That was a very interesting conversation.

[@ermolaevatania]

Masha Gessen is amazing, it's the very first time I see the person who doesn't fade when in conversation with Harari

[@anna-tn8mg]

Yes, all prostitutes communicate well.

[@nadirsaroya6791]

Dear Yuval, you have a humble soul. It has no gender. Stay blessed. You raise very good incisive questions. Your contender"s opinions are also up to the mark. It was a good intellectual debate. Keep that spirit up...

[@alexrichter1362]

I love Harari because he's pretty much a historian, his ego isn't involved, he's just observing non-judgemental.

[@anonanon5018]

I have observed many of his talks and interviews, and you are mostly correct but on a couple of occasions I have noticed him "slip up". Having said that, he's only a human but a pretty smart one at that.

[@AntoniGrzanka]

@@oliverhelbing8294 True, this is an illusion of democracy. Governments have stolen social freedoms for "our good" under the pretext of a pandemic. Governments seem to feel secure and the fight against the pandemic is sham. How to break this system painlessly?

[@mabd7340]

I have a question. How do a Trang end person like mashsa can give birth?

[@cathithomas2888]

Yes... he’s genius

[@Jack-eo5fn]

@@oliverhelbing8294, LOL, so if democracy or autocracy, totalitarianism, etc., are not simply stories (illusions) that societies believe and agree upon together, then what else are they? Money is a story, and mortal time when broken into hours and years is a story. So how is democracy different from that, and why is the acknowledgement and support of storied systems (money or time or democracy) by “global elites” or either by lower income groups, so dangerous to you?

[@wongkky9897]

Love your talk and the paintings on the background. I am a Tibetan Buddhist in Taiwan.

[@kierenvanderhaar6329]

It's become my dream to meet you Dr. Harari.

[@kierenvanderhaar6329]

Have read all your works. Nd recently bought 2 copies of Sapiens Graphic novel, 1 for me nd 1 for my 7year old daughter.

[@RussianLanguagePodcast]

What a brilliant discussion. Thank you guys.

[@AngelGarari]

Creo que sería una gran idea que hicieran posible la traducción automática para facilitar la comprensión a todas las personas interesadas.

[@user-cf5xs3eb4c]

Yuval is such a great scientist..his books changed the way i look the world!

[@khanshahid9515]

Great yuval

[@homewall744]

He's not a scientist. He's a historian.

[@iAmMattN]

You can call him plenty of things other than scientist, but yeah.. he's one of the greatest thinkers of our time.

[@sea2959]

his silence on Israel is deafening...

[@ltrzepalko]

@@sea2959 I just think his contribution outweighs his shortcomings.

[@kristinamelnichenko5775]

Read Erich Fromm’s ‘Escape from freedom’ per Masha’s suggestion and she’s totally right, he really captures the phenomena of ppl giving up freedom for security, and that security doesn’t have to be real. Ordering Arendt’s ‘Report on the Banality of Evil’ now❣️

[@liasaar2730]

I would also suggest Zygmunt Bauman's "Modernity and the Holocaust".

[@anna-tn8mg]

Yes, Arent was good. She was a Nazi lover and promoter.

[@chrismcnelly3004]

IMHO Two of the great minds of our time in conversation. I admire both of them, and I am grateful they allowed me to listen in.

[@ReynaSingh]

Very interesting discourse. Both are such humble speakers.

[@7788Sambaboy]

one of my top imaginary evenings would be to have dinner and talk with these two!

[@HAYAOLEONE]

lol

[@l.s.3995]

This is powerful and it urgently needs to be translated into any possible language... German, Turkish language and Russian language and Portuguese and... As many as possible. I could begin with German.

[@tinawillam4187]

Agree

[@gailalbers1430]

go for it

[@anna-tn8mg]

Yes, primarily German. The Nazis who co-created (with the "Palestinians and Kremlin, of course) the charming relative/reverse Holocaust denial ("The Germans did something bad, but bad things happen all the time and look what JEWS are doing in Israel) will most certainly enjoy it.

[@anna-tn8mg]

Correct. The Nazis and Stalinists were often together. Kindred spirits.

[@anna-tn8mg]

And bravo. You can read. I didn't know that 0.5 IQ can allow this.

[@vishikag]

How do I know if I am living in dictatorship? Interesting question and an equally interesting answer.

[@veronicavega2262]

Por favor, activar la posibilidad de subtitulos. Gracias!

[@emeliekgarriau5542]

This is a deep conversation, thank you so much for sharing these ideas. I am looking forward to a conversation between Yuval Noah Harari and Masha Gessen with Riane Eisler. Could the partnership - domination scale add insight in the rise and fall of authoritarianism?

[@EliasAndradeRocha]

Thanks for another good topic discussed by Harari. Your point of view is always very important for our day.

[@davidanderson9664]

Absolutely excellent talk. Thank you both. D.A., J.D., NYC

[@victorsaldivar9576]

Great show!. I see a balance in the approach and dissection of the themes discussed by two brilliant minds.....and they mostly coincide. Sincere thanks to all!

[@santanughatak]

Thank you so very much for this wonderful wonderful discussion...

[@parthanandi7151]

Thanks for the wonderful discussions ! ♥️ from India !

[@ronaldronald8819]

Thank you so much! Some light in these confusing times. A time where truth appears not to matter and people believe or cherry pick what fits their bias.

[@dianewhalen9721]

Thanks for the intelligent interactive discourse with great insight 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👍

[@krystibrice8947]

Very interesting discussion. Thank you both.

[@Celebrity-speakersDe]

A great and very interesting discussion!

[@antbryant1]

great discussion, food for thought! Thanks Yuval, Masha and Munk.

[@BestFitSquareChannel]

thank you gentlemen... your work continues to deepen my understanding of reality in which we live... best wishes, health, joy and wellbeing... 🖖🏽

[@adelinekeys6582]

Gentlemen??

[@CC-xn5xi]

Feeling secure vs freedom. The level of anxiety. So many social currents.

[@gezenbilir8438]

I wish one day I’ll join your seminar professor

[@ceciliam.8493]

I love Yuval Harari extraordinary human being ❤️

[@majazupan6241]

Amazing discussion!

[@hikeapeak]

Seems odd that Neoliberalism is not discussed (unless i missed it) in this conversation. Certainly, many of the issues we see in the US are a logical result of 40 years of the Neoliberal ideology. Hope to see YNH address Neoliberalism in a future discussion.

[@phcobb2635]

He does a bit more here; I watched it immediately after I finished this Munk conversation. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqGcmWaombqJnas

[@hikeapeak]

@@phcobb2635 Thank you very much Patricia, that was an excellent conversation. Still no mention of Neoliberalism, although aspects are discussed.

[@alistairmckee9561]

Neoliberalism is one of those "big lies" referred to by William Snyder in his recent NYT essay America and the Abyss. Except it was called democracy, as did the communist regimes. We are at a historic interregnum to the postcarbon era. Active citizenship must become a planetary movement before we lose control of both the state and the climate

[@hikeapeak]

@@alistairmckee9561 Yes, really enjoyed the article "The American Abyss" by Timothy Snyder. Perhaps one thing that needs to be emphasized is that Neoliberalism is not just a Republican or American ideology. Thatcher also introduced it and it morphs in various ways in many countries. Wendy Brown's " In the Ruins of Neoliberalism: The Rise of Antidemocratic Politics in the West" is a great read that provides an excellent historical perspective. cup.columbia.edu/book/in-the-ruins-of-neoliberalism/9780231193856

[@krystibrice8947]

It is discussed, though briefly, in the beginning. More discussion focuses on the responses to it.

[@alexanderford3819]

I am totally baffled …… Yuval , you ar such a brave man...

[@MyNguyen-uh4qx]

It's really interesting conversation between two big thinkers. Thank you very much.

[@newsjunkieish]

Very timely discussion. How do you know if you are living in a democracy or not.

[@AlejandroCastillo-wf1dt]

Just based on production value, this video is superior in loudness and clarity

[@mlsunmeier1907]

thanks for very interesting and wonderful discussion.

[@enividal9111]

Cadê legenda em português??

[@seanrezazadeh229]

Yuval is a very brilliant and smart historian. I wish world could have more like him to teach us.

[@GJWielinga]

What power in this pairing! Thank you

[@phantomopera5525]

Listening to this conversation is the equivalent of massage for the brain

[@xmamb]

Wonderful, what an intelligent conversation!

[@avivolah9401]

I would love to hear Yuval's thoughts on The Venus Project!

[@eduardkaspel8374]

yes people like stories - even in the context of the suffering of the world you are also just a story called yuval ---- i love you !!!

[@bindunishagandhi7320]

dictators are charismatic. So true. Love Harari and Masha

[@gailalbers1430]

Really enjoying this convo ; what i find interesting is that amid all this move or flirtation with the right in so many places across the world ( which I attribute to people’s fear of the looming climate change and an instinctive feeling that we’re at the end of the current paradigm with feeling overwhelmed ( that’s the fault of the politician not tackling the problems of the end of the age of oil & fossil fuels and the failure of the politicians and other leaders to inspire tackling the task ahead and promotion of creative solutions) Meanwhile in the UK a powerful progressive grassroots movement arises in Extinction Rebellion. I am impressed with their committed creative approach including suggesting a new form of democracy which does not include general elections but election by lot . hey it’s a new vision at least, while everybody else is tottering along with business as usual, without supporting new tech focused on helping us to survive the results of climate change. I would guess if a visionary ran they could give people hope and unite us to work on that problem together.

[@thetortureneverstops]

Great discussion. Got me really thinking. Yea kind of depressing, but at least it's not about Ukraine specifically, for me today. Tomorrow perhaps but not today!

[@azmc4940]

I'm loving the retro-future tech goggles!

[@victorverega]

Was the USSR Constitution the most democratic in the world? As far as I know, the USSR Constitution did not provide for the separation of powers in the state, the independence of institutions and their obedience only to the law, it did not allow the existence of other parties except the communist party. What did Masha Gessen read from this constitution to say that it was a democratic one?

[@BFitz1976]

Why does he keep saying they at the start ??? Is that here pen name

[@ratnalubis1591]

And may God bless you ... Harari

[@apolinarioenglish]

Another marvelous lesson. We really appreciate it.

[@prinka_rani]

Yuval i wish i can ever be taught by you in person 😭😭😭 Just because of you i want to do phd ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@anilsonawane8892]

Which subject

[@prinka_rani]

@@anilsonawane8892 any! Related to history

[@anilsonawane8892]

@@prinka_rani Great ...

[@jerrylion45]

Great Talk..

[@chaibhagwat8230]

The answer to your question at 17 mins in the talk, lies in macro economics post GFC.

[@dimitridufour8973]

Would be nice to have a sort of a public discussion in this comment section or elsewhere and not just 'I likes this talk so much'.

[@SlobodanMiletic]

Very good.

[@lbsaltzman]

I'd love to know the source of the Erich Fromm quote Masha Gessen cites about how authoritarianism arises when enough people are anxious enough that they want to turn things over to an autocratic leader (or pseudo-parent).

[@ellengran6814]

We humans build societies on dreams/ideas/political theories. Unexpected consequences created by our actions ( due to our ideas) are often difficult to acknowledge. We continue to tell the story of our «great idea», turning a blind eye on bad consequences. - Until one day when we are forced to take a look at our reality and adjust our ideas - create new dreams.

[@truthteller9114]

Harari clears many question i have in my mind.Now he is my `guru'(teacher )

[@mrbaloch9463]

I would love to hear yuval on #Balochistan history

[@Limposium]

I was reminded of A Song of Ice and Fire - there are ugly villains, but the worst are rather charming.

[@triptirathore9027]

Rise of totalitarianism interesting point as with the rise of anxiety and uncertainty increased people like a leader who is decisive and can take difficult decisions!

[@naunsei]

Legendas em português, please!

[@mindsetfitness4560]

É só colocar a tradução da legenda.

[@taghiabiri3489]

Ho to find out if you live in a dictatorship: „Can you make a difference“, are you able to change something. For example: can you as People of a country change the constitution with your Votes. (? Maybe? Like Switzerland)

[@teslaandhumanity7383]

Love ❤️ these guys

[@dejal.3606]

Great topic to talk about, in my country, LGBT movement was used in politic a lot, too.

[@sathsah1593]

I would ike to hear Yuval and John J. Mearsheimer in conversation

[@stompthedragon4010]

I appreciate that they can disagree on things and listen intently to one another, and still have a civilized discussion. What Masha is saying regarding what a typical Russian would think about whether or not they live under a dictatorship is very simular to what I am seeing many in the US present, and it is cognitive dissonance. At the same time there is a growing group in the US that sees through it and feel we are closer and closer to fascism. Another thought, there is much more technologically advanced methods of propaganda presenting pictures of bodies, real or not, topeople around the world. One last thought concerning transgenderism, many are seeing the effects that it is having on the very young in terms of confusion, puberty blockers, surgeries etc. To deny that this is happening is naive. To say that those who are wary of and concerned about the issue are backwards, naive, not wanting to look forward is a very biased perspective.

[@vaultsjan]

Pretty brutal to interrupt and end this kind of conversation (assuming this was not to do with Harari's or Gessen's scedule).

[@iankclark]

Would have been interesting to unpack the gender issue Masha launched into. I am extremely skeptical that the current 'revolution' in gender, as in CRT, is helpful. Not because of the problem of backlash but because it incorporates large elements of unreality.

[@barbarajohnson1442]

seems like "promise of stability while creating instability" is what is experienced in the U.S..... hope you show that its different, in only 1/2 way... ask black americans....

[@grecology]

What a great teacher Noah is

[@magh6997]

Because we have entered a new phase of life,it is better to this listen to this discussion and even believe that they do not live in the past.

[@redactedmane]

great discussion. especially with my ideological glasses on, i can tell what they are saying without actually saying it.

[@Rnankn]

Faith in humanity renewed.

[@financialvigilante365]

When referring to Sri Lanka / India / Philippines turning right, there are local factors driven by ethnicity and religious violence. And we all seem to forget that left oriented media and writers have consciously tried to gloss over the violence and separatism of belligerent ethnic / religious / racial minorities in these areas. At some point the majority will turn back and say - enough is enough when it comes to indulging such minorities. And that’s what you see in these nations. And tragedy is that vocal and more visible western media has for years been successfully insulting the underlying ethos, social culture and beliefs of majority of the society in just about every country. So the wild oats that were sowed by so called liberal media are coming home.

[@abdulaleem9970]

Now imagine how much more violence Muslim countries like Iraq have faced from America

[@alexanderford3819]

oh boy…. you r such a brilliant min

[@drcarlaj.mazzeo3534]

To shift away from a war based civilization, to globally work together. I believe part of the solution lies in developing an additional universal economic system The Barter - that demonstrates shifting values - acknowledging that we all have self worth and care for each other. Transcendence vs a domination culture - a shift in the global psychology. A better civilization simulation... perhaps. The ultra rich will donate (charity) a specified amount in digital 'chips' or 'credits' that individuals can earn through an incentive program that creates opportunity for people (earning much better than giving). A work bank and idea bank, 1st to be spent at the places where the donation occurred as small business will not be able to participate until it gets underway. Some ideas...

[@rwjfan10]

"Members only."

[@dianawoods6991]

Communist autocrat countries are feared by most and I fear for all humanity on our earth! The guests are interesting and we need more of them to remind us that history is so important.

[@TheMonika1951]

The most illuminating discussion.

[@agnesagni]

Are dictatorships one man shows? Does the structure hold without these individuals?

[@BoardroomBuddha]

Masha is amazing. She knows her stuff. Much better view because she is an exile with no place to call "home". Yuval is still a citizen and resident of Israel that clouds his thinking. LGBTs might be fine in Tel Aviv, but try being gay in an Orthodox community in Israel...

[@lizgichora6472]

Very engaging for the present day; especially with History and attempting to make sense of the global current affairs, policy, social change et cetera . "Gov't needs to step in ", Thank you very much.

[@sea2959]

Would be a leveling act for you to discuss Israel authoritarianism and

[@gabriellamclellan1102]

I'm a great believer of electromagnetics in all aspects of life... for example what is happening on our planet now.. is very similar to a cyclical pattern of calendar years.. seasons.. moon phases ..sun and planetary phases... That type of magnetism also happens in human and animal behaviour and everything that is living.... I seriously believe that electromagnetics of our solar system and the pulse of the universe certainly is a factor in human behaviour at this phase.. like an algorithm.

[@wanderingsoul1189]

Mr Harari, I'm your big fan from far off mountain lands of Pakistan. Like most of the regions, democracy in Pakistan is tightly and clandestinely controlled by military regimes employing different tools. They have brought up a radicalized generation by feeding them with distorted religion, armed with modern education who are mostly bigots. The current government is seemingly democratic run by military elite from behind. Kindly I need your views on that.

[@ihorperec4990]

My impression is that Pakistan's democracy is based on the pattern in which two or three wealthy families alternate in power. I'd call such a system an "oligarchic democracy". It exists in Bangladesh as well, and perhaps even in India. Would you agree?

[@justusschwabedal5924]

But what about Myanmar?

[@oguzhananis7285]

I really would love to hear them explain the ignorance and neglect towards extreme applications in totalitarian regimes such as in China right ? Are we just used to this or do we have to read it somewhere yeras later to acknowledge how a planned genocide take place..

[@jenniferhampton5171]

Perhaps the Chinese government and many people have a great fear of human creativity and freedom. If all are allowed to be free, the question may be, will I be obliterated? The answer is creativity is at the heart of the human soul. To see joy and happiness and laughter, let people be free. Free to find solutions.

[@silviopina_111]

18:59 Masha Gessen on “Anxiety and the inability to imagine the future”

[@DIOULASSO]

It seemed clear Masha and Yuval were the same person cleverly disguised by putting on a wig for one identity and then wearing glasses instead for the other identity, but this video appears to prove they are two separate people.

[@prathamkumar4782]

Super video

[@hoangnhatminh7711]

I think you haven't watch the whole video yet:))

[@jornalistarenatarosa4205]

Bolsonaro is the most mediocre dictator of all. No imagination what so ever, just greed, thirst for power and narcissism. Poor Brazil, poor Brazilians. Thanks for the initiative of this conversation, I didnt know Marsha and she/he is a very interisting figure with strong opinions. I like that. And is always delightful to hear Harari' insights. Thank you both very much, indeed. Love from Brazil

[@johnanderson3700]

Putin does display power: recent poisoning: but denies it despite it being visible because he doesn’t care; and created power and fear serve his purpose in different situations

[@HAHA-ix9vx]

17:00 38:00 dictatorship story

[@girdharrathi6728]

Masha is reflecting, in a great measure, Hope againt Hope, by Nadezda Mantelstam. ---Terror made effective by "example". You'd onto need extreme technologies. Nor body count. Normalcy felt under dictatorial regimes of various shades is also a product of numbness produced by slow doses of torment. And , on the other hand, the fear of being left behind in the march towards a new golden era!Brain washing may sound old fashioned, but the peer pressure makes it palpable.

[@Nguyenvybc]

Totalitarianism with much less violence, or totalitarianism in disguise, is possible because the previous totalitarianism had inflicted too much pain that people never ever want to go back to that state. They rather be more obedient, cooperative, acceptive than going back to war, hunger and death as risks of confrontation. And after some time of seeming peace, once people have built something valuable of their own (family, assets, career,...) that they can't afford to lose, confrontation to the totalitarianism regime is even further off the table. Politics no doubt influent everyday life, but in everyday life, most people don't see politics. Most people care about putting food on the table more than freedom of speech for instance.

[@seifharidi]

You are confusing conservative policy with dactatorship. Conservative policies is about values that existed earlier in societies. Whereas dicatatorship is about who decides the policies. I can think of a democratic system who collectively decide on enforcing conservative policies.