Zain vs iBDW - Top 8 Losers Quarterfinal: Melee Singles - Smash Summit 9 | Marth vs Fox

[@BTSsmash]

Game Start: 0:30

[@theFROZEX]

Not a boring second in this set

[@popperama6478]

Love Leffen on commentary

[@ViscountJimmy]

Same. Adds so much technical analysis that I just wouldn't catch without him

[@bardw.1542]

And he actually wasn't complaining about the matchup. Very professional.

[@Boyzby]

@@bardw.1542 He wasn't complaining, but you can tell there's bias.

[@JoelGarcia-lu3tw]

@@Boyzby I mean he doesnt deny it

[@TheRealRitzZz]

@@Boyzby Can't blame him tho cuz as a fox main himself he understands iBDW's side of the matchup more

[@taruniyer6788]

2:42 "Not just a shoot" followed by literally that

[@Mote.]

Zain looks a lil depressed. Hope hes ok

[@RyanMarcel_]

Zain lost 30% of his performance compared to genesis bcuz he betrayed Ludwig 😂😂 A Mogul Move indeed.

[@mallogallo36]

I like when Leffen is on the mic; I enjoy his perspective. Who do you think would make a good booth mate for lef?

[@sareaper69]

Leffen again. Or Mang0

[@TehWhiteTiger]

Leffen is a great commentator but damn he really can't stop driving home a point. Yes we get it marth has a slight advantage on fox but you don't need to spend 90% of your commentary saying how fox has it so bad.

[@JK-wv8zh]

TehWhiteTiger prob just salty cuz he just lost to iBDW a bit before this set.

[@jacquesl9972]

@Gianluca Tartaro He gives more insight, even with bias, than anyone on the couch. What are you talking about?

[@kodoy]

@@jacquesl9972 hard to give insight when you're being talked over 99% of the time. dude gets on the couch with toph scar and lovage and still cannot help himself from leffensplaining throughout the set like he's on his own stream

[@jacquesl9972]

@@kodoy I'd rather have a guy who knows how to express more about the game than people giving "hype" or play-by-play commentary even though everyone else on the couch knows a lot about the game as well.

[@kodoy]

@@jacquesl9972 that's cool, but there's a time and a place. that place would be leffen's stream which you are free to watch, not when there are 3 S tier commentators sitting next to you as you ramble uninterrupted.

[@jontwayn507]

DUDE did you guys see game 5 zain not waiting to even touch the ground! that was sick nasty

[@connorlucas5035]

Shout out leffs comentary !! Also anyone notice that top level foxs are getting better vs. Marth on FD these days. Call me crazy but ive been seeing it

[@lordmango6060]

Does anyone know what headsets the commentators are using?

[@Mr.Monky420]

11:30 and beyond. WOW

[@poultriarchy]

I know Melee has a reputation for its character loyalists but fuck me I wanna see Leffen play Marth for a year just so he can really drive his point home because Cody almost pulled through here lmao

[@runescape33433]

How did armada not teach ibdw how to edgeguard Marth?

[@ismelljello]

alex tomlin armada goes peach in the marth MU. The last time he tried to use fox against marth, was against m2k who won convincingly.

[@jacquesl9972]

It's easier to edge guard Marth with Peach than Fox. Peach has turnips that cover so many options so nicely, and a Peach player doesn't have to make as many guesses as a Fox player to how the Marth might recover. That's why you hear Leffen talking about how Fox players wish they had Sheik's edgeguarding ability because Fox can't reliably fall off/let go of the ledge, shine/back air, and get back to the ledge before the Marth does. Spacie players don't have that safe option of covering the low recovery like Sheik/Peach do.

[@Dlord1PlayStation]

@@jacquesl9972 Which option can they not cover safely? One thing is saying that there is no guaranteed option but there are quite a few options fox has that are safe. Yeah, they may require some prediction but they can still do a plan b edge guard right after if the marth doesn't snap back to ledge fast enough or is still in up b end lag. Also, as Leffen said, going for the higher risk but guaranteed options at high percent is not a bad idea since they are dead even at low percents if you do it properly and if you mess up your invincibility, you can at least go for a tech. Even if you end up dying at high percent, you still revealed one of their recovery mix ups for the next stock, which they are not likely to do again since they know you're prepared for it. I think Armada and mang0 both edge guard marth with fox better than the fox mains do tbh.

[@jacquesl9972]

​@@Dlord1PlayStation You can't recover the drift back low recovery against Marth as Fox. You can as Peach/Sheik because you can still get back to the stage faster than Marth with double jump up+b. Having to firefox if you miss is instant death, and most Fox's HAVE to get up from the ledge early because getting clipped means instant death. The plan b doesn't work because Marth is still at the ledge anyways and threatens long-fair and grab. The mix up recovery is not worth the 50/50 gamble as Fox because as I said, that means instant death. Playing as Peach and Sheik, you don't have that gamble. But I don't believe edge guarding is the difference in why Foxes aren't winning against Zain. They're just getting outplayed in neutral, and Zain's punishes are usually 30%-death more harder than what Fox can do.

[@Dlord1PlayStation]

@@jacquesl9972 Hmm, not sure exactly what you are talking about but if you're referring to marth sweet spotting the ledge, roll, jump take ledge, marth killer, invincible shine all beat it. Non sweet spot is beaten by cc downsmash or shine, jump up f tilt, get up attack sometimes, etc. I have not seen any marth recovery that fox does not have a safe answer to beat. Can you find a clip of it please? And yeah, they are getting outplayed in neutral but if they want to improve their punish, edge guarding does seem to be the main area for improvement.

[@Mr.Monky420]

Zain is just too good.

[@MrLeaff]

between non-gods this is one of the greatest sets ever played

[@miralupa8841]

wut lol

[@Michael_Dominic]

IBDW legit choking hard AF game 5 and then complaining about the match up. lmao.

[@cottonmather8146]

"IBDW choked hard game 5." Nigga, Zain got one hit and took 2 stocks, LMAO. Not much you can do at all in that situation when ur opponent's punish game is on point.

[@Themonkeymartin]

@@cottonmather8146 I mean, Fox can win neutral more easily. It's better neutral game vs better punish game match up

[@NitBeanTheMachine]

@@Themonkeymartin nah their neutral is about even

[@Themonkeymartin]

@@NitBeanTheMachine I would definetly disagree. The only reason a player like Mang0 can keep up with Zain in this matchup is because Fox is always going to have more options than Marth. Marth is always trying to stop all those options, and he can do a pretty good job, but Fox can create the most advantegeous situations in any position of the neutral game always.

[@musicaln8]

Please give me Zain Mango Losers Finals...

[@aidancannon521]

It's gonna be Zain mango losers semis then whoever loses winners finals(Plup Hbox) will fight whoever wins mango Zain losers semis

[@niceprofile-k6i]

Leffen is insufferable

[@ethanchiron9703]

first

[@chrisludwig4729]

I think I can finally get behind banning FD from tournaments.