Zak Stein: "Values, Education, AI and the Metacrisis” | The Great Simplification 122

[@ResurgentVoice]

Please have him back to answer that question! I have a 16 year old daughter and a 13 year old boy (both kids have dyslexia just like your guest). My 13 year old son is listening to this with me, and writing a paper about the dangers of AI development for society. He read Scott Alexander’s Meditations on Moloch and has listened to Daniel Schmachtenberger’s discussions on the meta crisis as part of his research. He is very passionate about how to make a difference in this world, and he often feels so frustrated with school, adults, and his lack of agency over these problems. He keeps being told to just jump through these hoops so that he can get to college and then he will be able to do something, but that feels more and more like a pipe dream to him because things need to be done now, not in 10years! I wish I could connect my so with people like Zak and have him encourage my so to keep working. Now that he’s 13, just hearing me encourage him doesn’t seem like enough anymore. He needs a community of adults who are working on these things to give him a sense that he can truly make a difference. At this age, no kid really wants to just hear it from their mom. 😉

[@antonyjh1234]

How has he taken oil out of his life? I and he, same as all of us, exist because of oil, changing this dependence and it running out is in all our futures, no one has the answer to keeping the same thing as now, for him to be frustrated must mean he has the answer. Removing oil will completely change society, what should adults do, other, imo, than completely break the economic model and degrowth?

[@mariahmckay]

He can join the Parallax Media Network and engage with people like Zak through that forum. Good job mom! 🥰

[@ResurgentVoice]

@@mariahmckay thanks for the suggestion! I’ll look that up and see if I can have him join! ❤️

[@cdub9923]

Have him watch Nate’s episode with William Rees.

[@RjbigIamMe]

That is interesting🤔

[@ResurgentVoice]

“Zak, my friend, sometimes I long for the days when I was only worried about peak oil.” OMG, I felt that so hard! Ever since Chat GPT went live, I’ve been feeling that. Thank you for this conversation! It was absolutely a joy to be able to listen and learn from you both. Social media can be a horribly toxic thing, but it can also allow an educated middle aged woman who had to leave paid work behind to care for my children and my parents, to feel intellectually engaged while doing the tedious things like dishes and laundry. 🤪 *edited for a spelling error.

[@heidi22209]

I agree...

[@occupyscience-9479]

I just love Nate's project. I am a retired lecturer in a technical school, and have struggled my way out of the system's logic on education. Now this guy Zak, states clearly my observations all these years. Nate' s project also gives sense to my view on the future of humanity: all these discussions, on so many different, but interconnected topics, is the core of creating the unifying case for the species. Thus, we have a sign of what is the meaning of "another world is possible". Possible does note mean probable. In fact the possibilities of such a world lie in the Fermi paradox domain. Greetings from Greece.

[@thejuddah]

Zak is excellent. Thanks for introducing him to us.

[@tobiasreber611]

Deep thanks to both of you, Zak and Nate. Zak for laying out complex and emotionally taxing matters out so clearly, and Nate for the attentive listening and subtle guidance of a very complex conversation.

[@flow963]

Extraordinary, magnificent conversation! A thousand thanks to you Nate and Zak too & crew

[@SeegerInstitute]

Nate, I’m building a school along the lines that you are discussing here in Hawaii the Seeger institute focused on exactly the kind of skills you are discussing on this podcast

[@kaisersozay99]

Another brilliant interview and guest, thank u Nate

[@curtisbush8098]

Thanks again, love the deep insights from Zak and your sincere curiosity, Nate. I've been wondering if a 'magic wand' compilation video might be possible - would be great to hear many answers from your guests combined in a sharable format.

[@louisacochrane5491]

Incredibly well said and so much merit in re-establishing community that has completely disintegrated!! thanks Nate for always exposing us to the greater thinkers of our time

[@josephpereira2359]

I watch my kids enjoy school at four, five, six. Then, when they get to seven or eight, they become reluctant. The teachers say they are tired. Why tired? Kids can play all day without becoming tired. Has anyone bothered to ask them? Sitting at a desk all day learning things that don't seem to have relevance to them should make adults think. As Nate says, what is education for? It's certainly not for the kids. At least not in the format we impose on them. Watch them play and interact. This is the core of learning. This place is where we should find our teachers.

[@bumblebee9337]

It's a glorified daycare to keep kids busy while parents are at work.

[@jenniferl8714]

So the sports field is a good place to teach and learn. Coaches can teach ethics etc

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

9 year olds may not be the best judges of what is relevant.

[@antonyjh1234]

Was it different for you at the same age, would it have been any different 2000 years ago learning about Plato?

[@squeaker19694]

Patents and tribal community used to be the teachers. It was an immersive experience that felt highly relevant to them. I home-schooling my daughter for 3 years and she learned what interested her and what she saw her family doing. When she went back to school she was years ahead and qualified for the gifted and talented program. But she hated school because it all felt so artificial and her peers were emotionally stunted and damaged due to growing up in that environment.

[@timeenoughforart]

I find this podcast terrifying. A while back I was wondering about the difference between a child raised to help on the farm. Every time he picked a tomato reinforced his value to family. A modern child might feel the stress of both parents working as his fault. Is he no longer of value and in reality a burden? People are not having kids for exactly this reason. From the industrial revolution to AI parenting in two life spans does not give humans much time to evolve, adapt yes, but not evolve. My grandmother taught in a one school classroom in Nebraska when she had to keep her marriage a secret because married women were not allowed to teach. My grandkids are pissed at everything. Who can blame them. I remember reading limits to growth at 16 in 1975 and wanting to become an architect who built passive solar low impact structures. College and the election of Reagan put that idea out of my head and I chose a career in drug and alcoholism. History repeats itself, I wish we would give the power to those "children". I'm pretty tired of the "OK Boomer" response today. I do understand, most of my friends spend their summers driving $120,000.00 RV's and winters flying to Mexico. I hope I never underestimate the blessing of poverty. Money is a much more dangerous drug than any I had to survive.

[@CitizenK1969]

This is the first time I've ever heard a subject matter expert discuss the societal risk of AI as I see it, and Zak Stein even uses the same referent I do -- the ELIZA chat program. I had never heard Weizenbaum's own concerns about ELIZA, but it is a relief to hear he had such qualms about his own creation... One of the key dangers of AI, in my view, is this illusion that AI is human-like. What we've done is create a nuclear weapon -caliber form of self-deception... Stein articulates this risk exceptionally well... Another fantastic interview! Thank you, Nate and Zak!

[@stephenboyington630]

Thinking something that is artificial is real only can happen when you are not interacting in the real world. People should interact in the real world more, and online less. I have no ability to understand why people are so drawn to the fake and away from the real.

[@CitizenK1969]

@@stephenboyington630 Generally, because the fake often panders to us, whereas reality imposes its own demands. Your AI girlfriend doesn't complain about you; that's what's insidious about the technology.

[@davecarnell9631]

I serendipitously saw a video from "Beau of the fifth column" after listening to your interview with Zak. It's an optimistic view about the youth of today which is pretty complimentary. We're not alone!!!

[@greatedges]

Excellent conversation. Thank you.

[@Pinstripe0451]

Brutally honest. Thank you!

[@11minslater]

This Episode was so informative - thanks so much for providing this info to the world

[@jeffbarney3584]

1:08:00 What Waldorf does here is not age grouping solely but also seeing that there are developmental stages and age grouping is necessary. That is to say there is important differences between what it is to be a 7-8 year old and a 9-10 year old that has age specific approaches on all levels. And thinking of the school as an organism and the classes as organic and functioning isomorphically. And so there are planned overlaps of the curriculum and collaborations. And for Seniors they do a grade by grade meta-analysis of the education as well as a look at the philosophical foundations of the journey they just went through. These are of course low resolution explanations of complex processes.

[@ryanellis424]

Zak is as real as it get🙏🙇‍♂️ This convo has me really inspired and considering to make this topic a huge life mission of mine, among others of course. Please have him on again to focus on advice for young people! I'm 23 and literally started crying tears of cathartic validation when he shot, with no bulshit or fluff, "if you feel alienate and angry, you should, dont believe all of the adults, watch out, have faith in the people who are your age" and very importantly, "dont give up on the adults"

[@SixSeed]

Fantastic Interview. As someone who works in education and witnessing teenagers firsthand struggle with this. We need change and Im sure most teachers cannot continue the way we are heading.

[@TheQuietPartisLoud]

This guy is really, really interesting, and his lane of study is really up my alley. As a teacher it's probably no surprise that I am more interested in a complete framework shift for education as opposed to further bureaucratic "throwing more testing" at the issue. People have been lamenting the collapse of education generationally, so it's nothing new. But, that doesn't mean it's not happening. It's gonna be really interesting to see how education evolves. Will privatization, in the form of increasingly cognitively isolated private and charter schools take over? Or will education systems become more lax, and community oriented? How that happens is kind of up to us.

[@emilymiller1792]

I am inclined to think that lament about the "collapse of education" is not so much coming from "the people" as it is from the powerful who can wield propaganda campaigns for their own benefit. Softly wrest the control of education from the people and they slowly lose the ability to direct themselves.

[@timeenoughforart]

I come from a family of educators. My grandmother taught at a one room school house in Nebraska, back when she had to keep her marriage secret because married women were not allowed to teach. Mother worked ten hour days, six days a week. Aunts, uncles, cousins...I've seen the changes and heard about them at every single family function. In grandmothers day the ages were mixed. Older students commonly helped younger. My mother saw the changes of stay at home moms to working moms, increases in divorces, and the loss of respect for adults. She talks about the change that happened when "The Simpsons" became entertainment as when students started back talking. After she retired she was appointed to the school board to fill in for a member who had died. A member of the community threated to kill her over "prayer' in school. Personally I have had teachers I know have changed my life in fundamentally positive ways, but only because they had more control over their curriculum. I fear fields like medicine and teaching rip the heart out of people. Why put up the abuse of over bearing bureaucracy and extreme expectations? Now we have digital reality and AI. Pretty soon kids will have never seen a real butterfly and only know them as creations of AI. Just put them in a pod, connect the hoses, and let computers raise them. With love of course.

[@FREEAGAIN432]

profound conversation. So revealing in many ways. Thank you so much Zak and Nate. 36 yrs Houston Tx. TRUTH!!! YES

[@mifflinfinity]

I can’t wait for round 2 on the question about how to adapt among all of the paradigms shifting around us. ❤

[@ThomasSteves]

As mind blowing as it gets.

[@CarolineWalker-hs2zv]

Many thanks, Nate and Zak, for this challenging and inspiring podcast. I taught for 14 years in a school very much aligned to the values and principles set out by Zak. See: C Walker, As if size mattered: the evolution of the human-scale approach to education for sustainability in Journeys around education for sustainability, London South Bank University, 2008. And The Small School in Regenerative Learning, Global Resilience Publishing, 2022

[@krystalspringer]

Reminding me to get outside part way through 1:03:30 listening means my neighbours are going to get a listen too. I want to finish this lesson but want sunshine on my skin and to watch my cat play in the yard.

[@audiojake27]

I think it's an incredibly important point that we need to have an ongoing societal conversation about values. Especially as our society becomes more secular and as religious values become more warped by politics and capitalism, it will ultimately be necessary to create a system of objectivist ethics and values that can lead society forward. I have no illusions that there is some Utopian future where every culture in the world spontaneously adopts the same value system. But I definitely agree that our subordination to global capitalism has left a huge hole in our thinking and feeling where meaning and values used to be. An education is obviously a huge part of this, otherwise you get whole cultural movements that are the product of emotional manipulation by charlatans rather than people being able to reach the same conclusions from different angles and being able to come to agreement through an ongoing conversation.

[@antonyjh1234]

I think the delay has been the crossover of post religion and how religion seemed to have control of virtue, morals etc and that we can have these things without following a religion. I would much prefer a world without religion, as much as people can have freedom of it, I would like freedom from it. Religious values were lost way before capitalism became a thing.

[@mpetry912]

this was a really good one thank you Zak and Nate.

[@jyrikallela]

Great guest!

[@danielaherzog3201]

Wow. How incredibly rich! Thank you both so much.

[@benitalll88]

Absolutely astounding! Thank you so much Elders Nate and Zac🙏. What a privilege to have been able to listen to this.

[@ShawnRitch]

ENCORE ! One of the best Q & As I've ever had the pleasure of watching. *TIPS HAT*

[@rolfvanharen]

My my what a quality show this was. I have spoken with Zak myself. Such a profound and elaborated wisdom.

[@bellakrinkle9381]

Zak has allowed me to access a new vocabulary through which to understand the future of AI. If anyone has asked ChatGPT-4o complex, interactive questions, it's difficult to not see the value and potential of AI. I'm always impressed by Nate's ability to ask intelligent, meaningful questions on the fly of these brilliant guests.

[@treefrog3349]

It could be argued that the ineptitude of our current State Department is empirical evidence of the systematic erosion of our education system. Wisdom and statecraft, acquired through deep learning, has been replaced by a form of juvenile, prep-school chauvinism that is doing the World no favors. America's "Founding Fathers" were the best-educated scholars of the era, imbued with 2000 years of western philosophy, conversant with all of the sages of the ages, many fluent in Greek and Latin. They created the very idea of America! Today, their counterparts on Capitol Hill are a cringe-worthy embarrassment who often have trouble with the English language! Look no further than our Halls of Power for evidence of our eroded "Wisdom".

[@jennysteves]

Well said. I suspect our young people are far more gut-savvy about our world’s current overload of predicaments than society and its spun-off educational institutions credit them with. Many young fresh eyes have seen our economy-focused civilization and its resulting inadequate support systems as the ridiculous and fracturing creations they are, and have just tuned out. Why participate? I often (almost always) feel the same.

[@BobQuigley]

Could not have expressed our sad state better

[@treefrog3349]

I wish that I could feel as sanguine as you seem to be. To me, it seems like our youth are merely lambs being led to the slaughter. Moreover, even if they ARE aware, they have no voice amidst the din and power of the "anointed" few.

[@treefrog3349]

Do you mean things that you might be cable of understanding?

[@kurtklingbeil6900]

​​@@President_NotSurepfffffft you natter about incapacity to argue while modelling and exemplifying exactly that You can't even articulate your whinge-whine

[@stewartderekbarker-bo9kg]

Thank you, nate, another great conversion ✌️✌️✌️👍👍👍

[@louisepople338]

Thankyou for discussing this as not many are speaking about the after effects of our humaness in an AI driven world. I was fortunate to attend an open plan school in the late 70s and have a lifelong love of learning. Very glad I took my daughter out of school at 13 and she homeschooled herself. She knew what she was doing. Kids are way smarter than adults in many ways. Love the idea of Youth Lead civic leadership.

[@davrcg]

This was such a great conversation. I didn't know about Zak before this episode, but what he says and the way he thinks are fascinating.

[@arldoran]

Great conversation! It shifts paradigms.

[@erlinae1]

All l can do this express my profound gratitude for creating this dialogue ❤

[@troygoss6400]

Brilliant dialog 🙏

[@lancechapman3070]

You are no stronger than your team!

[@lancechapman3070]

This is maybe the most important show, yet. Does life actually have value, or is it all in the living?

[@zweiberg_betterliving]

Brilliant, thx!

[@STLisAlive]

Great convo! 1:50:52

[@staudingerk]

Nathan, you've blown my mind once again! What you said about value really clicked for me and gave me those aha moments I'll probably remember forever. I've always had this intuition, but actually articulating it and hearing it from someone else makes a huge difference. Your podcast is so valuable because saying things out loud is essential for change-it won't happen or will come too slowly otherwise.

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

Really appreciate having the chapter labeled timestamps for these long interviews. Thanks

[@karennelson6671]

I really appreciate this conversation. I was wondering if there are any pieces in this collection about toxic personalities and interactions as a symptom or microcosm of the larger superorganism. I'd be interested in insights about the psychological impacts and expressions of the crisis.

[@emilymiller1792]

Schools do not have be "specifically designed" to avoid answering/discussing the meaning in life. Reading Antigone, the Iliad and Aeneid, Hamlet, Of Mice and Men, The Chambered Nautilus, and other Great Works gets you wrestling with that.

[@anthonytroia1]

I knew we'd see Zak on here eventually. ♥

[@brazenembers]

I wonder if many viewers of this podcast don't understand that liking videos increases the likelihood they will be recommended to others, by influencing the algorithm. Start liking, people!

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

I surmise a lot of Boomers and GenXers feel they are "getting back at The Algorithm," by refusing to tick the Like button. "So you think you can track me, huh... (ha ha)... I'll show you. I'm not going to use the Like button. That'll fix you!" It's become an epidemic on Facebook, so that nobody is getting their posts circulated anymore. With the exception of people who have thousands of Friends, I have friend after friend whose posts have zero interaction except for the odd comment, and I never see anyone's posts now unless I deliberately go and track them down. What these people don't understand is that they aren't foiling anything (in most cases the host platform knows instantly if you interact with a post, whether you tick the "Like" button or not). All that happens is you hurt the efforts of your friends to spread worthwhile information. Like yourself, I've posted/commented about this on different occasions, and even gotten a lot of response. On that post. Then everyone goes right back to doing what they were doing before. It's made FB into an experience where people are in essence just talking to themselves. Pointless and unsatisfying, (if it wasn't already). This is how not tech savvy these older generations still really are in the US., and how non-experimental and non-trusting the overall community has become. Not that anyone should trust social media corporations. Rather, the situation is that you can hand people facts -- logical, clear, annotated with source, and even hand them your own credentials on the topic, and the only thing they'll ultimately be willing to listen to are their own previously defined preconceptions. Even when clearly demonstrated to be wrong! 🙈

[@smartartification]

Great information to know, Thanks.

[@PeripheralWisdom]

enlightening discussion. thank you

[@TheFlyingBrain.]

Wow, I love where this man is coming from...

[@lukELfin]

Thankyou.

[@hagbardc623]

What a great 'class". I feel more enlightened by a lot. Sifu Stein is a great neo academic and I hope we'll see a version of his type academy in our life times. Tho I'm not holding my breath.

[@treefrog3349]

I am old enough to have had friends who attended Berkeley for FREE! Today, a perfunctory Community College degree is beyond the means of millions. Where is there ANY cultural wisdom in that? To me, it evokes dark and cynical musings about the intentions of our current socio-economic paradigm. I wonder how many Einsteins and Mozarts are getting "crushed under the bus" of our increasing lack of collective wisdom?

[@pookah9938]

Assumptions about work, about money, and about what we've wrought. Open the eye of value.

[@emilymiller1792]

Schools have definitely had a rough go from NCLB, but I do not lay much blame on them for kids' attention struggles. The issue with ADD/ADHD seems to be more an issue with the Standard American Diet, inadequate nutrition and sunshine, and excess stress and toxicity.

[@jeffbarney3584]

@15:00 As relates to education and specifically Waldorf schools: screen exposure and understanding of the technologies underlying (plural!) must go hand and hand with stages of child development from a threefold perspective that Zak's metapsychology maps well on to. Developing a degree of autonomy over the kinaesthetic willing life and the aestheitc feeling life integrating into cognitive capacity before allowing techno amputation and coopting of those faculties allows for the understanding of the technologies and creative design therein.

[@Selvatorium]

Hello, Im an english speaker living in Colombia and feel frustrated there is not more info like this available in spanish .....There are few people in south america that understand englsih...I try to find podcasts, books etc. that are translated but its just not available...Im going to have to download your transcripe and translate with AI to pass around in educational circles.

[@jjuniper274]

OMG! Thank you Nate and Zak!

[@packardsonic]

Thanks

[@occupyscience-9479]

just as the use of computers is simplified by an extended complexity in their functioning, the great simplification will require an increase in the complexity of our own thinking. Yes that requires also a different education system.

[@andywilliams7989]

In "A pattern language" by Christopher Alexander, he projects a universal eduction credits that are anualised and for life. That means that every year every human gets vouchers that can be cashed in anywhere that has been certified to teach. So that could be the local pub that has an excellent cook, and you wnat to learn their skills. They can register and qualify to cash in your vouchers. It could also mean that that summer camp where they teach you to live in the woods is now accessible to anyone. This deventralises education and removes this stupid idea that you have to decide at 14 years old what road you wish to take in life.

[@emilymiller1792]

Why do you have to decide what road you want to take in life at age 14? That is an artificial constraint applied by corporatists on schools. Schools should prepare you for some elements of adulthood, particularly the knowledge and understanding necessary to participate in a constitutional republic. Being "career-ready" at HS graduation shouldn't be the focus. Local public schools should be primarily directed by the local community, not be corporatists. Maybe getting kids to consider employment options, especially for those who might otherwise drift, might be prudent, but, right now, career-pathways have become the sole reason for education. :(

[@andywilliams7989]

@@emilymiller1792 I think you mis read me. We seem to be in total agreement 🤝

[@emilymiller1792]

​@@andywilliams7989 We may be in high agreement regarding kids not being shooed into a "career pathway". I am uncomfortable with educational vouchers, though. Could lifelong tracking and certifying of education be the outcome of such a system?

[@andywilliams7989]

@@emilymiller1792 every good idea turns bad, every innovation becomes a tool for dominance. Anything we create to solve problems becomes a problem. It is almost a universal law. I think we need vouchers so that those who take time out to teach get paid. Vouchers guarantee that every person has an "education budget" and that good education isn't reserved for children of the rich and privelged. I think that there are other contextual factors too, like setting tax thresholds to make the apparition of giant corporate entities nearly impossible. I think that vouchers are better than a digital system, I worry most about digital dominance. I think that the downhill effects of "education populaire" would be a rub off effect of attitude and citizenry along with skill. I work in a range of sectors, one of which is rural construction, landscaping and renovation.. I work with very small building companies and self employed tradespersons. To be a good self employed builder with a reputation for skilled work requires a certain mindset, born from a constant confrontation with physical reality. While not all philosophers or intellectuals, these people solve problems all day every day, have solid ideas processing and are good people that aren't cranky. Our futur needs more of this and less of what we have.

[@winningedge965]

Thank you both. As the interview ended I started thinking about another great thinker that I have been influenced by Yuvral Noah Harari. He wrote 'Homer Deus' in 2015 and looks very prescient given how AI is developing now and particularly Zak's concerns.

[@winningedge965]

Sorry 'Homo Deus'.

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

I imagine this conversation taking place during the late phase of the Mayan culture, "Instead of throwing more human sacrifices at the problem we should reform the educational system..." I always get a little sceptical when i hear the good old "loss of values, loss of education, decline of civilization" lamento, tbh i see little in our Platonic-Christian value heritage that doesn't deserve to decline, let alone any talk about "creating a better world" with a nostalic appeal to metaphysics. Less actionism to improve life on earth, less intellectual speculation about "the Universe" or "the meaning of life" , the cure for a hangover is either to immediately get drunk again or enduring the pain to sober up

[@mariahmckay]

It’s not a “nostalgic appeal to metaphysics,” quite the contrary! It’s a NOVEL appeal to a metamodern metaphysics called Cosmo-Erotic Humanism. Read his book “First Principles and First Values.” If you are as annoyed with these other tropes as you say you are, you might just love it!

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

@@mariahmckay "Cosmo-erotic humanism" HAHAHA i thougt you were kidding at first. White people.... I rather take walk in the woods, play with my cat or listen to some interesting music and live some moments without words than read a book like that

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

@@mariahmckay And please dont take my sarcasm as personal insult, i've had my fair share of grandiose idealistic thoughts about "higher maaning". But i seriously think we do not have to "position ourselfes in the universe", we need to reinvent ways to provide good food and shelter for us without destroying the ecosystem we are part of. We should also realize how fragile our bodies and souls are and that the pain is real. And that some day we will die. For real

[@mariahmckay]

@@alexanderleuchte5132 as a person who has dedicated my working career to date to exactly those outcomes I know from experience that to be successful requires us to understand how profoundly we are a part of the fabric of the universe. Proceeding without that understanding is causing harm beyond our ability to repair it, often in profoundly counter-intuitive ways.

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

@@mariahmckay “It is true, there could be a metaphysical world; the absolute possibility of it is hardly to be disputed. We behold all things through the human head and cannot cut off this head; while the question nonetheless remains what of the world would still be there if one had cut it off.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits

[@astrologerclimatewitness3787]

Okay...sorry for the typos ..i went back and changed some...and ...yet ..some are still there ...🤔😜

[@JessieLydia]

Oh, you bet! I've been talking about how exponentials (which nature OR we design) ALWAYS outpace their environments... Nate, we should talk. Nature obviously has great compensating and rewarding alternatives. We should all be studying them!

[@chelamae]

One clickbait headline I came across recently said (something like), "Teen refuses to get a smart phone". May this (inferred) perspective deepen and grow!

[@K-A5]

45:00 (personal timestamp) Integrity is evolution

[@rttptt3710]

I always found the end question of 'advice for young people' one of the most interesting in each episode. I hope you keep asking that!

[@rttptt3710]

P.S. Please for the love of God have Zak back! He is one of the most intriguing guests!

[@Kqiros4447]

Lack of rituals leaves a vacuum space of meaninglessness

[@WilliamGreen]

"The presentation of certain things by the Universe"...I think your guest just agreed with you in a very long statement.

[@wvhaugen]

Well, that was good and had many interesting points. However, the enormity of the changes necessary, as well as the war economy, render it just an academic exercise.

[@edithcrowther9604]

Collapse has become the Solution - the only Solution. Once we admit this, we can start to look at Collapse as something not wholly frightful, but with potential silver linings. This is the only change of attitude that is needed, really - but it is a big one. Even people who have pointed out why Collapse is inevitable (i.e. people who measure the finiteness of natural resources, not an easy thing to do), find it hard to then take that last step into positively looking forward to Collapse. It helps to visit the ruins of former civilizations, preferably in person and not just in videos, because in person you can see the people still living near the huge abandoned structures. They seem perfectly happy - maybe the Collapse was horrific at the time, but eventually things settle down and even improve for a while - until the next great civilization starts building towers into the sky, mining stuff, chopping down trees, etc. Videos are good though for explaining just how extremely sophisticated long-gone civilizations were, because they decipher the writing and art and so on, and even guess at the overdevelopment and oversophistication that caused the Collapse by analysing seeds and other fragments dug up by archaeologists (as well as the written record, if one exists). Lots of youtube channels doing this - my favourite is simply called Fall of Civilizations, it covers 18 HUGE collapses and has over 1 million subscribers, the images are gorgeous and the commentary riveting.

[@thegreatsookini]

Is there a young podcaster talking about the metacrisis and the field of value?

[@GlobeHackers]

What are the myriad causes of decay within a particular period? What conditions would be necessary for a large-scale civilization to maintain itself without decay? (liberation from historical cycles minus liberal "end of history narrative) If we could JUMP to something new somehow, then what? How does the JUMP happen, and how would a culture maintain balance as it develops, changes, and grows? I want to know how we help people understand the complex causes, the processes needed, and the culture of stewardship and maintenance required to flourish over a long period. (education, education, education-of course, but for what purpose?) Almost all structures, institutions, and systems are a black box to ordinary people. Do the Players who serve Capital allow people to understand how things work? (Reality) Power wants control. Making a new Culture is extremely difficult. Throw a dart at a history timeline, and you will find many case studies. Some of us keep trying to ask the right questions and answer them. Thanks for your efforts. The sad fact is the WEIRD world isn't that great. I've heard stories like these for decades and don't see any progress. "Is anyone doing things better?" "It's an interesting question...." I would love to see more examples of how normal communities implement a model Zak would find compelling. Well, we can enjoy the conversation, at least. "Education in a Time Between Worlds: Essays on the Future of Schools, Technology, and Society" is an important book I have been happy to recommend for some time. Best

[@PaulAdams-v3e]

@ResurgentVoice very cool to hear that there are 13 yr old kids that understand what we're facing as a species. I'm 68 and feel the same frustration that so many adults have their head in the sand and never question how things got to be this way. We are so driven (and manipulated) by memes and soundbites and few ever take an hour or two to listen to conversations like this. I think home schooling using a curriculum similar to your son's exploration of these topics would be a good start. What public schools have done over the past few decades fits the definition of insanity...

[@nicholasporteron]

Bring Zak back!

[@Seawithinyou]

Hi Nate It would be of an awakening am sure for Peter Zeihan as the first Geopolitics speaker to come on your The Great Simplication talks but of course maybe catch up for a cuppa coffee first? 😇

[@flow963]

I’m wondering if the declination in the notion of ‘worth’ from its traditional meaning of value to society as measured by standards of integrity and character toward a notion of ‘net worth’ a strictly financial determination plays a key role in downhill tumbling of western civilization?

[@Deep_Sorcery]

We get to watch the collapse of a nation due to a lack of education in real time. In Russia, the educational system collapsed 30 years ago along with the Soviet Union. That means most of the Russians with a decent education are in their 60's. Their in-house labor force doesn't have the skills or education to maintain their own systems and infrastructure. Prior to the invasion of Ukraine (which was a bad idea), Russia relied on help from foreign nationals to help maintain those systems. But that's over now, and this is what a collapse looks like.

[@arthurcnoll]

Curious that someone deeply concerned about the metacrisis, and with a very rich vocabulary, doesn't appear to know the word "overshoot", or the phrase, 'limits to growth" . It is true that education about these things is very limited today, though the basics of them are not very complicated to teach. Computers are not necessary. And of course, there is zero education about the fact that these things have been ignored with false logic and corrupt accounting, which are also not very difficult to see and understand, though instinctive desires are profound blocks for many in wanting to understand and accept honest counting. People sadly behave like addicts, doing destructive and self destructive things with their emotional desires stronger than desires to be honest about what they are doing to everything around them, and to themselves. We would still have serious problems to solve to take these these issues seriously, to have a society that took them seriously, utopia is not promised with it, but the huge problems we have in the current corrupt system could be ended. And it can end because addicts who refuse to stop end up dead. We cannot force people to stop, it has to be voluntary, but those few who will make the great effort to stop, to help each other though this deep change in values, will logically have a better chance of surviving what is currently happening and stop the damage being done.

[@tedhoward2606]

41:26 Zak says "You can't get ethics and morality without some conversation about value." That is kind of true and also kind of false, but in a way that has multiple levels to it. It seems clear to me that we have multiple levels of subconscious impulses towards that which we would call ethics and morality in language that are actually built into the structure of our neural networks and some of the substructures within them. It seems clear to me that those tendencies are heuristic systems that are part of ecosystems of cheat detection and mitigation systems that are demanded of all levels of complexity if the cooperation that makes such complexity possible is to survive long term. I have no shadow of remaining reasonable doubt that cooperation is fundamental to the long term survival of all forms of complexity, but the obvious surface level competition present in evolutionary systems tends to blind people to the deep necessity of cooperation for complexity to survive. It seems clear that there are very few strategic contexts in which raw cooperation can survive long enough for new levels of complexity to develop effective cheat detection and mitigation systems. We're not quite there yet, but we are close. We have deep levels of impulses in those directions, but we do not yet have sufficiently useful stories to support them. The dominant dogma, that competition can solve all problems; actually carries existential level risk - it is in fact that wrong. Nate goes on to say "But right now, anything of value, in the sense that you just said, has a dollar overlay on top of it that imprints on the cultural perception of its value." And that is wrong - but the perception that it should be right is the issue. Just think about breathing. Most often we don't think about it, we simply breath. Breathing, the fresh air that goes into our lungs, has no dollar value. We only notice its real value when we don't have it for some reason (like strangulation or smog). Dollar value is market value, value in exchange; and that sort of value has a scarcity component by definition. Anything universally abundant has zero value in exchange, by definition. Markets are useful in finding arbitrage values for scarce resources; they are incapable of valuing things that are necessary and abundant. There are two implications from that which are important. 1/ There are meta incentives in markets to destroy any abundance and turn it into a marketable scarcity. 2/ Some level of poverty is demanded for markets to function. It is not even theoretically possible for markets to deliver useful abundance to everyone. These are the two deepest and most pressing existential level risks posed by market capitalism. Zac sees part of this, but doesn't clearly state the depths of the issues present. Zac and I differ in the notion of truth. I find the notion of truth a dangerous over simplification. I see deep value in having our understandings as usefully close to reality as possible, but when you look closely, reality is evidently more complex and fundamentally uncertain than any model we can have of it could possibly encapsulate. So a better description of what we commonly call "Truth" is "useful approximation". The recursively deep issue present in "Truth" is, as soon as we think we have it, we stop asking questions that would challenge it, because, why would we if it is "True"? Completely align with Zac on the distortion created for most by testing. I noticed it, was overwhelmed by it, 45 years ago, when I was teaching for a couple of years. Agree with Zac that testing is only a part of the problem, the problem is deeper, but Zac is not explicit that it is the failure to identify the fundamental role of cooperation in the survival of complexity. The dogma that market competition is a fundamental good simply cannot be challenged. It must be challenged. It is a threat to our very existence. It can be a powerful tool for a subset of contexts, but is not generally applicable. From about 50 minutes in Zac does a great dive into the idea of teacher student relationship and its distortions. Zac also nails some serious issues with today's teaching systems, and gives some viable alternatives. At 1:18:00 Nate asks about reform, and Zac responds. 3 years is too short a time, but otherwise, Yes. Agree - it is a hard question, and a deep one.

[@MAKLOUGH]

Really excellent discussion thanks. I share Zak's concern about the negative impact of AI and Zak's perspective about its effects on kids should be of deep concern to everyone. Zak's answer to Nate's question [1:36:00] about the effect of an AI influenced education system on today's kids in 25 years in terms of their mindset, education and temperament focuses on what for Zak is the root concern of an AI mediated education system; a generation will emerge with more experience of socialization with machines than with humans which could lead to a fundamental inter-generational rift - we would in fact be responsible for producing a generation of cyborgs. Nate, I believe speaks for us all when he replies; "Dude, that's freaking horrible!". It would be great to have Zak back again perhaps as part of a panel to discuss different models of education - Zak touched on this with his reference to Illich's "Deschooling Society". We need new models in place when the Great Simplification takes place - we need more alternatives be it Forest Schools, Sudbury Democratic Schools (self-directed education), Unschooling etc. What are the values and skills kids will need for a future which is going to be profoundly different than what we now experience. What is clear is that we need to be having a societal wide discussion now about AI and our kids exposure to this technology.

[@JessieLydia]

The biggest lag in education is interesting, between teaching a science for a limitless world, to the one needed for life after growth. That's a science for observing in real time what's going on around you. Individual people and other organisms make that shift at birth; a struggle but often very successful. At first, the new world looks and is quite unfamiliar. For a civilization the situation is different, of course. Of course, the consequences of continuing to teach the wrong mental model for survival are considerable. The financial system's enforcement of ever-faster change, for example, may be catastrophic, particularly in a system suffering from changing too fast to stabilize its changing systems already. Still, insight into how the multipliers of power shift to multipliers of system care, as happens in natural systems that survive their growth, could help guide people on what's now happening in a good way.

[@life42theuniverse]

I think the antonym of relative is absolute in the context of value.

[@life42theuniverse]

I think the only absolute value, that extends to all organisms, is reproduction. All religions create a shared basis/language for relative values. The values themselves evolve with culture. How else would religions be so diverse from each other?

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

With the greatly simplified version of human capacity in years to come, AI will not be the teacher. The teachers will be those with capacity to survive and possibly flourish in an environment that is severely compromised and unpredictable.

[@kated3165]

I remember being bored to death by math classes in high school... which we had basically every day. Sitting through these classes was torture. At some point I gave up entirely and stopped trying to learn. Failed the final exam solidly. My cousin took pity and decided to help me through. Within 3-4 private classes with her I had learned everything I needed to. Retook that exam and passed at 96%. The reality sunk in that they had spent a WHOLE YEAR teaching material that could actually be learned in just a handful of classes. The school curriculum and the way the entire system is designed just made the process so excruciatingly boring, repetitive and meaningless that teaching us anything became a drawn-out battle. I remember how pissed the teachers would be about the Pokemon craze. More specifically they would constantly complain about all the kids easily remembering 150+ Pokemons and everything about them... yet struggling to remember short lists of words or "important facts" given in classes. What I don't remember is any of them questioning the educational system or (in some instances) their own methods...

[@emilymiller1792]

Why aren't we getting wonderful schools that celebrate and inculcate the very best of beauty, nature, and knowledge? Because of the hold that the federal and state governments have on schools with money, testing, mandates, and more. Because or corporations pushing career-pathways and internships and college in high school to speed everyone into the workforce. Because too many adults have fogotten what it means to be educated and why, and, they think they don't know enough to direct local education because they don't have the "right" degree or don't have a doctorate. And, we have too many people who have checked out of the conversation (that is about the future of our nation no less!) because their kids are done with school or they don't have kids in public school so they wash their hands of the problem. I wish people would instead 'rage, rage against the dying of the light'. Maybe, then, the torch could be passed, brightly, to the next generation.

[@mikerizzyraw]

Imagining speciation is the scariest thought I had all year.

[@heatherwallace13]

One of my FAVORITES!!!!

[@peterprochilo4555]

35:55 An appeal to "Beauty" or "Truth" etc. implies something exists that is inherently transcendent and non-relativistic. Thus we begin to chase down the Absolute (which, I would argue, is inherently appealing to the human soul).

[@TennesseeJed]

I was rased and educated in a factory town to emerge into a town where all the factories went to South and Central America. I couldn't afford to move out of the country.

[@j85grim4]

It's good to see actor Liev Schreiber became a tech bro philosopher. I was wondering what happened to him after his movie "Sphere" flopped 🤔.

[@ronwalker4998]

Wow great discussion .. and scary

[@emilymiller1792]

What "trivia" are people being taught? While I was primarily educated in the 1980s-1990s, I do not recall my education being mostly geared towards "trivia"---my college education or otherwise.

[@priapulida]

I think they mean easily testable lists of things, like all presidents etc, a focus on memorization instead of problem solving in large part because that is more reconcilable with standardized testing

[@emilymiller1792]

​@@priapulida I see little rote memorization of any kind with my kids' education--even where rote memorization is an appropriate tool. It's more like the knowledge has been winnowed to the bare bones needed by the tests. Measure what matters, they say. But, not everything that really matters can be measured. So, we're only left with an education that can be measured but really doesn't much matter when it comes to matters of the soul and the Great Ideas.

[@erincookson4012]

Have a look at Steiner Education. I believe it is a truly holistic educational experience.

[@priapulida]

yes and no. Steiner education can be seen as a reaction against the excesses of modernist schooling, but in some ways, it goes too far in the opposite direction.

[@rttptt3710]

@@priapulida Just an anecdote, but I personally had an awesome experience of waldorf schooling from age 7 to 15. I think it made me more whole as a person, and didn't extinguish my love for learning. I think how you apply the pedagogy matters a lot, and the community structures surrounding the school, more so than the underlying pedagogy itself.

[@Popopopopopopipopipipip]

This is an interesting guy

[@andywilliams7989]

Perspective 'conspirationologue" : If the schools are there to condition the youth into fulffilling the overall ambitions of society, then things like introspection and critical thinking have to be off the programme. It would let the cat out of the box. Bit whatever we do or propose, someone somewhere will shout INDOCTRINATION. So school's first mission is to teach children about indoctrination, about the function of culture being a software that hugs alot of our invisible hardware so closely that we still haven't finished deciding what is nature and what is nurture. I keep coming back to the need for immersions in nature, an exchange trip to each major historical time period so that we apreciate what we have.