Zane Cook ECP 24

[@zachdresser315]

It’s always nice when I’m watching essential craftsman and ec2 uploads a new podcast 👍🏻

[@harryedwards4090]

My dad was a master carpenters and was building a house in 1947 when I was 6 years old which in the good old days b/4 drywall and had to put plaster ground around all the doors and windows and on the walls at the floor and my dad handed me a handsaw and a handful of 5 d nails and I installed.plaster ground. I helped him build houses until I joined the Navy in 1959. Got out in 1962 and joined the Unions apprenticeship program where I learned welding starting out. Back then the mills hired mill rights who had to know welding. My dad built.houses in Roseburg Oregon until 1968! I left Roseburg in 1967 and moved. down to San Jose and continued as a carpenter. I was a carpenter/foreman/ supertendent for 30 years! The houses.me and my dad built are still as straight as the day they were built. I was a union apprentice for 4 years and it was thebest experience of my life. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

[@kylekowalczyk3437]

Absolutely love these long conversations. I work in IT and have zero ambition to transition into carpentry however I am into woodworking. However the things that you guys talk about translate to all industries in their own ways and I enjoy you putting your wealth of knowledge out there for all of us to view. You guys are great!

[@kengamble8595]

Fifty years ago when I was involved, it was called Vocational Technical School ( votec ) ! Really needs to be more of places like that! Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍 👍

[@15ryanss]

As a High School construction teacher in NC, I understood a lot of what Zane talked about. We use NCCER as our curriculum because it’s state mandated although we have a lot of flexibility. We teach a leadership portion through our CTSO which is SkillsUSA. I teach 9-12 grades in 4 levels. I’m placing all the graduating seniors that want a job which is about 30%. The remainder are doing either military, higher ed, etc. Zane is correct, our contractors are asking us to teach more and more soft skills. Scott, keep up the good work!

[@BA-sw5dn]

I'm a new carpenter about two years into the trade and I love it - I am so fortunate to work with the guys I work with. I studied 3d modeling for video games in college and didn't make a penny doing any video game work., However I recently took those college skills and started studying CAD software and now I can draft houses, furniture, trim work of any and all kinds, and therefore I am actually putting my college debt to use in a roundabout way. Do construction and establish a strong foundation - you will find work or even create work wherever you go

[@carlomiranda3799]

Any advice on a CAD program to use as a newbie?

[@BA-sw5dn]

@@carlomiranda3799 SketchUp is awesome for newbies.

[@Charles-bn4cd]

I have years of experience as a construction laborer and minor repairs involving drywall, framing and painting. I didn't know it back then but I absolutely love how useful I can be when someone needs help with something or when something needs to be done. Currently looking into a career as a union carpenter. I'm 32 yrs old and it's never too late to follow your dreams!

[@jeremygallimore3042]

Finally... A worthwhile conversation about trade schools. I can't put into words how profound an impact trade school has had on my life. I was in trouble as a young man and had a wise guidance counselor in highschool steer me in that direction. I went to trade school all through highschool. I competed in VICA nationally as well. As a result I had a job in the field right away. I've worked in construction for 30 of my 44 years. I decided some time ago to actually go back to school and become a plumber. Going to school 2 days a week for 4 years until I finally got my journeyman license. Fast forward a few years I own a plumbing, HVAC & remodel company. License GC, Plumber, HVAC. We're a small company & I try my damnedest to teach my guys new skills every day. All of my guys are either in school or have some kind of related license. We're a more than a company we're a family. We care for one another. None of what I have today would have been possible without trade school. It was the most profound decision I ever made.

[@kiwdwks]

Always interesting conversation...thanks!

[@riskoffire3167]

Mike Rowe needs to find you guys.

[@scruffy6151]

Well done guys alot of useful information was talked about.👍

[@johncatt1867]

This is excellent, I feel that y'all should get in touch with Mike Rowe and This Old House, as they are both working hard at getting more people into the trades. I am really glad that y'all are having this conversation.

[@normjacques6853]

The trades, building industry and, indeed, the country, need more programs like this (maybe to include electrical, low voltage, and mechanical trades). I was a low voltage electrical/telecom contractor for nearly fifty years, prior to retirement, and can't begin to tell you what a nightmare it has become to attract young folks to the skilled trades. Once you sorted out the obvious 'undesirables' (can't pass a basic background check, etc.) you had precious little to pick from and had to provide all training 'in house.'

[@normjacques6853]

By the way, I taught at an 'adult' trade school for awhile and loved it. The only problem was that it was expensive for the average applicant to the program, which ended up turning away many who might otherwise have had a great shot at success.

[@MsElijah16]

Norm Jacques how much was it?

[@normjacques6853]

@@MsElijah16 ... It was a seven to nine month course ( depending on days or nights. Night courses ran fewer hours per day, but longer altogether) that cost around $17K back around 2005 !!

[@MsElijah16]

Norm Jacques wow, you'd have to come out of that as a building pro for it to be worth it I'd say

[@normjacques6853]

@@MsElijah16 ... I was teaching electronics/low voltage electronic systems, including a ton of 'hands-on' jobsite classes, electrical codes, OSHA safety, etc., etc. Max class size was 30 students. We averaged about 27!! Many former students still keep in touch and most still work in the industry.....whose entry level pay was equal or better than their college grad counterparts....and they didn't waste 4 years and $80K - $100K on degrees! I had no control over cost, but we tried to give students more than their money's worth.

[@divguns1]

Again, thank you for these expanded topics. As a parent, now grandparent with a post grad Biomed Engineering degree, I must confess that the day my son announced that college was not for him just about knocked my socks off with disappointment. Luckily, I grew up in a family of skilled tradesmen and worked as a boat builder with my uncle through my teen and college years. The skills learned mostly by osmosis and observation moved my wife and I on to renovate and construct some 8 homes over the years. Both my children actively participated in planning and construction with the result that both my daughter, who is in medicine and my son, now a master electrician and GC, with a specialty in military (Air force and Navy), power generation and computer center lightning and grounding stability protection, (BTW, I was completely unaware of some of the specialty pathways available to tradesmen and women who wish to push themselves and their skills.), are quite comfortable diving into complex construction projects. My only criticism of the current trade environment revolves around the lack of availability of quality training facilities and the rather challenging apprentice process which often disappoints and frustrates new graduates. My first hand example involves my nephew, who like my son graduated as an electrician only to find no opportunities to apprentice. He looked for over two years. After much searching and suffering through less than satisfying service jobs he was grabbed by a large utility company and tossed into a two year high voltage training system. So it all worked out, but this experience with the vagaries of the apprentice process add an unnecessary hurdle to bright young people who we will desperately need in the trades of the future...sadly, not everything is structured by software coding...keep up the great work and again Thank you.

[@psidvicious]

That’s interesting and I wonder if you and I might be hitting on something of a ‘missing link’ with some of these structured apprenticeship programs. You said your nephew wasn’t able to get an apprentice job even after completing the training. In my case (I explained in my comment) I was forced to hire ‘apprentices’ from a program that, frankly weren’t ready for ‘prime time’. Something is missing in the programs that is keeping these students from being more attractive to employers. In my experience the apprentices just seemed to be ‘going thru the motions’ that the curriculum required bcz the instructors told them - If you do ‘this’, you will make X amount of dollars when you graduate. No one seemed to be there bcz they really wanted to, or needed to for that matter. They even had a pay scale that I was forced to give apprentices raises on, whether I thought they deserved it or not. No, something is missing from most of these programs and I’m afraid I can’t really put my finger on what it is, unless it’s these ‘soft skills’ that they talked about in the video. If that’s the case, they REALLY need to put more emphasis on that. A LOT more!

[@divguns1]

@@psidvicious Excellent points all. My personal trades experience is very limited as you can tell from my background. I am quite intrigued by your identification of soft skills as a component of the problem. In my sons case, he was born with a desire to learn and we hope grew up with a strong work ethic. He started his own company and almost from day one complained about the lack of quality employees. In his own words, they generally seemed unaware of their non technical responsibilities ...being on time, being presentable, being reliable, taking responsibility for tools and equipment, understanding the impact of missing time commitments, possessing good communication skills, dealing effectively with problems, disengaging their work responsibilities from their personal life, being generally uncaring about safety issues and standards, and understanding their important role with the customer. Obviously, this is a simplification, but my son became quite disillusioned with the whole apprentice program. The technical training is usually basic and thus the role of the apprenticeship period, but as you mention, the concept of meritocracy, or earning your way into those oversold earnings figures quoted by the schools remains problematic. One insight which may or may not be helpful is a personal observation outside the trades. Post retirement I took a part time job as Adjunct Professor of Business at a local university and taught undergraduate and MBA students for a few years. What I learned was that most undergraduate students where focused on getting their degree paper and lacked very basic understanding of the nuances of business. In other words, with no real world experience, much of what I taught was lost on them. My MBA classes where very different. On average these students had 7 years of work experience under their belt and on top of being bright and driven, most wanted to learn all they could about the skills they would need to succeed. Twenty years ago I would have hired them in a heart beat and felt comfortable with their reliability and value to the company. My conclusion is that if a trades candidate has learned or is taught the importance of the soft skills mentioned above and how these skills will impact their future career success, then imparting the trade technical skills is a much easier task and will result in the delivery of high quality employees and future trade professionals. I will admit that my nephew was attracted to the rosy earnings promises of the trade school and may well have had unreasonable baked in expectations of his post graduate experience. At the time he was married, working in a dead end job and saw the trades as a good personal alternative. Unfortunately, the hand off from school to apprenticeship was poorly defined with virtually no outreach from the school to the community. His work experience, and his trade training did finally pay off, but it took 2 years and some out of the box thinking on his part. Best regards

[@psidvicious]

@@divguns1 You’re making some great observations from the outside [of the construction field] looking in. And it’s surely bcz they’re principles that apply everywhere and are not unique to the construction trades. All day, every day, I’ll take the person that knows nothing and has a good, ‘want to succeed’ attitude, over the person that has all the skills, but a poor attitude. I’m quite capable of teaching someone what I need them to do, to accomplish a task and in a lot of cases prefer it. But it’s very difficult to teach someone whose mind is in a place of indifference or worse entitlement. I hope Mr. Cook gets a chance to go over these comments and somehow express to his students the importance of their attitude. Teaching students these things (if that’s even possible) should be at least 50% of the curriculum. IMO

[@divguns1]

@@psidvicious I'm with you. Excellent comments. My son read the thread and called and just shouted "OOHRA!" Once a Marine always...Very best to you and yours. Take care.

[@MsElijah16]

Awesome videos thanks guys , you can sense the passion

[@dillydallydollcomachineand8246]

Great cast new to this channel but love the other keep it up .

[@timhale501]

I taught construction trades classes about 15 years ago, 1 Hour of construction math every day,, hands on basics in the shop, then hands on for Habitat for humanity , It was sponsored by Unions and the state employment offices. I also taught some Night college construction classes.

[@dansamson7081]

Hi Nate. I like the new show opening better. Good intro and flow, and sets a tone for the show. 👍 keep up the great work guys.

[@cole141000]

Roof Cutters Secrets. I’ve been a framer for 9 years, read that book & it is THE master framers book. It doesn’t just go through cutting roofs, it starts from laying out walls and goes all the way through to cutting complex arches, stairs, circular stairs, cylinder roofs, anything you might run into in custom framing. And also production framing in the custom area

[@jum5238]

What a great program! Thank you for highlighting such programs. I think many fear the fear or famine periods in the trades, but excellent trades people with great people skills will have it made. There will come a lot of on the job training as well... Again, thanks for sharing this interview!

[@psidvicious]

This is a difficult one for me: The CEO of the company I used to work for was president of the local chapter of the AGC in my area, for a time. So we were pretty involved with them in a lot of things. The reps would come out to my jobs on a regular basis and they would send apprentices out regularly as well. I was always, let’s just say, ‘strongly encouraged’ by the principals of the company to hire these apprentices. And I did. I would absolutely LOVE to have a great success story about an apprentice I hired from them that went from a lowly laborer to superintendent or higher! But, sadly I don’t. And I don’t have a real good explanation for why. I also have to say that when a job was finishing up and some ‘culling of the herd’ was in order, again I was ‘strongly encouraged’ to keep the guys from the AGC program and let some others go. This did not sit well with me and I can tell you, it’s not any easy thing, to look a man in the eyes and tell him I had to let him go, over another man with less talent and likely less ambition. The guy would probably never work for me again bcz he thought I ‘chose favorites’ and more than once I was thought of as racist for the choice I was forced to make. Sometimes when a guy that came in off the street, showed exceptional ability I would encourage him to go to the program bcz I knew, if he was an AGC apprentice, I would have a better chance of holding on to him come lay-off time. But more often than not they had other obligations to tend to after work, like a wife and children or other family or maybe side or second jobs to go to. I hate to be a wet blanket on the subject bcz, in spite of my experience, I LOVE the idea of an apprenticeship program. But when it’s forced on you, the unintended consequences can be very uncomfortable and costly when you try to staff the next job.

[@MsElijah16]

Sometimes people have better opportunities elsewhere so you are doing them a favour

[@chris247478]

I did not realize you had a podcast. This was a really good episode. Longer episodes would not be a problem, in fact I like not having to take out my phone and change episodes while I am working or driving. I would love to hear an episode regarding you experiences, thoughts, and interactions with unions.

[@1Barrel2u]

Can you provide the web address for the math guy Steven Ellis.. This was a great subject for your podcast. Keep up the good work ( I hhave heard that phrase somewhere).

[@buildingwithbrian]

Its 45 minutes long! Yay. It's the little things sometimes.

[@joshpursley8404]

Great video

[@stephensuverison6803]

As a New Castle School of Trades graduate. I would tell anyone who is around the northeast part of Ohio and are looking to get into the trades to check them (NCST) out.

[@dweathers56b]

Soft skills, they are a hard problem. We see so many young men that have no support system at home. They are always dealing with personal business and home/relationship problems; it's hard to keep them focused on their job.

[@BrianEhrler]

Drive outruns intelligence level and environment all day long ... they need a motivation from within...

[@jum5238]

Totally understand this. Had a very abusive home, and school was my outlet. (I wasn't allowed to have friends.) That went well for several years until an academic setback I really cared about pushed me over the edge and I cratered. I reached out to escape (getting court to agree took time) and did so, but it affected me for awhile. Everyone needs a support system with SOMEONE in their life. I can point to one or two teachers that really made a difference in my life, else I would have succumbed to the drugs, violence, criminal influence or death in my neighborhood. I was the first (of two) out of 9 who got a 4 year degree, and that took me 10 years. Lots of times I came home crying, wanting to give up and my wife kept encouraging me. (Well, kind of listened.) But that's what I needed. And did so while employed full time with up to 3-4 kids. I re-watched this episode, and this time caught Scott's mention of his interaction with the class of apprentices and thought gee, Scott is the kind of instructor that would have been a great influence to someone like me... And look at him now (and Nate who helps make this happen) making that kind of influence to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people around the world! Just think of the power of the ending tagline, "Keep up the good work."

[@BrianEhrler]

@@jum5238 Motivation comes from a lot of sources.

[@DeliveryMcGee]

The carpentry class could be put to use building houses for Habitat for Humanity, I'd think.

[@MsElijah16]

Delivery McGee that's what LH used to do aye?

[@terencewinters2154]

Devos should watch this.

[@jasonswoger410]

ABC is the organization I went to trade school with south east Pennsylvania chapter

[@clydenakashima7393]

The Hawaii Community College in Hilo, Hawaii has carpentry course; where they build a house for homeowner.

[@jeremyhorn4424]

Didn't have time to watch all of this yet but wanted to comment on it , our surrounding schools have a lot of high school kids that are able and do attend the vocational technical program or VoTech for short, and they used to have a building trades program that a local contractor/ builder taught for years and was very successful doing it but the economy and lack of interest from students shut down the building program, the VoTech still offers great programs such as nursing, welding, automechanics. However our building community has missed the program that gave young people an opportunity to learn how to build a house.

[@mountainhandyman5046]

Does watching essential craftsman count as schooling? 😅

[@DeliveryMcGee]

Lol Nate's comment on thinking you're going to be doing the same base-level job for life. Of course you'll eventually get promoted and be issued an apprentice of your own (or in Scott's and my father's case, spawn your own apprentices ... though I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to hire somebody else's kid than to raise your own.)

[@dustincleckler9806]

How would one get some of the math information from Steve that you mentioned in the video? I am a high school Agricultural and shop teacher and would love some of the math information to assist my teaching with.

[@keithreay]

Please tell me this was shot before social distancing became the norm.

[@EC2]

it was!

[@jum5238]

Zane's mic is too low, relative to your dad's and your microphone. Hard to hear him without turning the volume up a bit, which makes your dad and you really loud.

[@terencewinters2154]

There should be more trade schools . Or Amish .

[@jum5238]

Scott, noticed your cough... sounded a bit dry at times. You okay?

[@EC2]

He's great. This was filmed a while ago :)

[@johngilronan6373]

Zane take your hat off. You are inside.

[@charlesmiller5078]

I guess it all comes down to where you live, around my area, its Illegal Mexicans that have taken over all construction jobs. Probably hasent taken over Oregon Yet, but their coming your way. They dont have a lack of workers, they have a lack of paying a livable wage, Mexicans depress the wages. Just like truck driving, they say nobody wants to drive a truck anymore. No its that most drivers make so little money its just not a trade you want to do. You pay enough, workers will be lined up at your door. I drove a Haz Mat rig, which takes alot of special paper to do. and clearance from homeland security. alot of red tape and expense. When I finally put a pencil to what I was actually making per hour. 8 years experience, and a trainer. I was making roughly 10 buck a hour. My niece working in a day care watching kids makes 11 bucks a hour.

[@saltydroog854]

The modern non union job site needs to get over itself in regards to boots. Boots are NOT the appropriate footwear for MANY sub trades. I'm a trim contractor. Not only are boots not required for my job, I don't think they are appropriate. Same with a tool belt and bags. A trim carpenter should not have bags on his/her hips. You are working in a mostly finished environment, with walls that don't need to be repaired from the constant dings and dents that will come from your bags. You need to be nimble, comfortable, and as slim as possible. I'm not talking about your physique. I mean not kicking corners of outside miters as you clod through a house in shit kickers. Sneakers are the most appropriate footwear. I would say the same for roofing. I would not roof in boots, and I would not work for someone that required boots on the jobsite and wanted me on a roof. Footwear is a tool. Same as a hammer. There are many for many different jobs.

[@tMatt5M]

Doesn't this redtape Oregon law offend your libertarian sensibilities?

[@WeeShooey]

I’m first. Woohoo

[@MsElijah16]

Hugh Osborne nice one Hugh

[@BokorRider]

please when you cough these days please do so into a tissue and bin the tissue (no idea when this recordedmaybe before covid19 spread in USA)..................great discussion