Zen Koans - Two Different Approaches

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[@zfid]

I swear..my dog has NEVER reacted to a KZbin vid (or other) until Ziggy barked! From my cave there is a scent of authenticity from you good sir

[@BernieSimon]

There's some history behind Daido Lorri's translation. He was part of a Zen tradition, the Sanbo Kyodan, started by a Soto Zen monk who thought the Soto tradition had lost its way and wanted to revitalize it by introducing koan practice in the style of Rinzai Zen. While it's a small tradition in Japan, it was very influential in American Zen. Loori's translation reads the way it does because he wanted to use Dogen's koans the same way the Gateless Gate and Blue Cliff Record are used in Rinzai. So he added the commentary and capping verse to imitate the style of these works. The upshot is that it's not the translation to read if you want an accurate idea of what Dogen said, but may be more appropriate for the purpose he had.

[@dr.jeffreyzacko-smith324]

Excellent explanation! I’m currently part of a Zen Center in the Sanbo Kyodan tradition, and it’s the one piece I struggle with - I feel no affinity for Zazen that has an object (like a koan), and feel more at home with Shikantaza.

[@osip7315]

the trouble is its monotheism under another name which figures, john was brought up catholic you can argue christianity is polytheistic and there have been polytheistic versions of christianity in the past (which islam was a reaction to) and maybe zen is the true bastion of monotheism ? koans are idiot rhymes for intellectual cripples because of the dominant influence of shinto in japan, i don't think monotheism is a subtextual "meme" there like it is in the west

[@HardcoreZen]

That sounds reasonable.

[@456creeper]

When I read Loori, I was reading Loori. When I read Nishijima, I was reading Dogen using Nishijima as a mouthpiece. If koans are mirrors Nishijima's are WAY more reflective. Ziggy's bark is a pretty good koan.

[@t.c.bramblett617]

I am so thankful for Nishijima, for these translations and commentaries, and how straightforward they are, yet so in-depth with the notes if you want to get deep into it. A masterpiece worthy of Dogen's originals.

[@ZenAndPsychedelicHealingCenter]

Thanks for this Brad. The points you raise about the Daido Loori Shinji are valid too. I'm working on this at the moment with my teacher and I generally just bypass the commentary completely in the Daido book, partly as much of it seems redundant and perhaps even a little lazy to me. I think Ziggy gives a clearer commentary in comparison. One problem I had that this video did help with was that doing a straight search for the Nishijima Roshi Shinji tends to come up with it being listed as still unavailable. So thank you for giving a link to where we can get hold of a copy with the video. Good luck finding Timmy in the well.

[@HardcoreZen]

The Nishijima translation only recently become available again.

[@zenjazzplayer]

LOL Ziggy barking and "Is Timmy in the well?" was the best part of this video (sorry, not sorry). Brand new koan! Please write the book "Ziggy's Koans." Thanks!

[@zenjazzplayer]

After that you can write the books "Ziggy and Dogen," "Dogen and Ziggy," and "Ziggy Zen." Training in zazen is similar to training dogs: Sit. Stay. ... Nooo, stay! LOL Gassho

[@HardcoreZen]

I'll work on that!

[@benhorner8430]

You should definitely film the final triumphant rescue of Timmy. :)

[@HardcoreZen]

We're still looking. We're not sure who Timmy is...

[@joeg3950]

I find the Loori translation communicates a style that many practitioners like to think zoan practice is - mysterious spirituality; it also miscommunicates in its style (my opinion of course). Nishijima Roshi’s translation communicates in a clear and effective fashion that gives the practitioner what is essentially needed and lets them befuddle the koan all on their own. Thank you for efforts!

[@jonwesick2844]

Wow, I actually knew Mr. Nearman back in Seattle in the late 1980s before he became Rev. Hubert. He was translating Noh plays before he went to Shasta Abbey. I knew he did some translations of the Denkoroku but didn't know he translated the Shobogenzo. Good to know. Timmy fell down the well. LOL.

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

I TNH tradition there is not koans study but a direct action over an insightful statements by the Master. For instance imagine you are undergoing a very difficult moment in your life and you attend a guiding meditation in any TNH groups for first time. Then while sitting to relax you heard “Present Moment, Wonderful Moment”. First mind reaction possibilities: Irritation, Thinking: “It must be for you the wonderful moment...”, but as in the sitting instruction involves awareness of body and mental activities; Nothing happens and you leave the session in a worse state than when you came. Then, as you keep sitting and practicing mindfulness, what one thought to be a simpleton statement bringing irritation suddenly unfolds its insight. My favourite poem for kinhi: a step for each verse: “I have arrived I am at home In the here And the now I am solid I am free In the ultimate I dwell”

[@sgwbutcher]

As has been said earlier, John Daido Loori's approach is very Rinzai and I find those footnotes equally "cute" (Gotcha! Nope. gotcha again!) Nishijima Roshi's approach sounds more solidly Soto (at least as it has been described to me), "let's see what we can get from this story". There are other approaches still! John Tarrant's ("Bring me the Rhinoceros's Horn") approach is closer to more of a community practice (I actually quite love his book and blog). Dogen is said to have taken an approach whereby everyone in the koan is enlightened and what does that mean? I had heard the aphorism before but Gesshin Greenwood puts it like this: (Every koan ever....) Student/teacher: Absolute! Teacher/student: Relative! Student/teacher: Okay, middle way...although as Gesshin notes, certainly in the Rinzai tradition, koans do have correct answers (which seems to belie Daido Roshi's footnotes).

[@HardcoreZen]

Good points. Thank you.

[@saralawlor780]

I love the way you try to unravel these difficult concepts and make them accessible in such a natural way and the way Ziggy joins in with sound effects. Thank you Brad. Who is Timmy?

[@BernieSimon]

There was a television series named "Lassie." Lassie was a dog owned by a farm boy named Timmy. In one episode Timmy fell into a well and Lassie ran to his family to rescue him.

[@dr.jeffreyzacko-smith324]

I can tell you must be under 40 or from another country - with that Timmy question. :-)

[@HardcoreZen]

I think the guy who played Timmy wrote a book called something like "Timmy is in the Well."

[@zenjazzplayer]

While we're on the subject of koans: Having just finished reading Zen Pioneer: The Life & Works of Ruth Fuller Sasaki, I’m re-reading The Zen Koan by Isshu Miura and Ruth Fuller Sasaki, that I read many years ago. On the bottom of page 42 and the top of page 43, Isshu Miura quotes Hakuin from his Sokko roku kaien fusetsu: That is why a man of old said: “For the study of Zen there are three essential requirements.” What are those three essential requirements? The first is a great root of faith; the second is a great ball of doubt; the third is great tenacity of purpose. A man who lacks any one of these is like a three-legged kettle with one broken leg. I have always wondered, and doubted, whether the word “doubt” is the best choice of modern English word as a translation from the 17th or 18th century Japanese spoken by Hakuin. I have wondered whether a better choice might be “skepticism” or even better, “curiosity.” Can you find a source in Japanese from Hakuin’s time and read the Japanese to know whether the English word “doubt” is a good translation? Or whether other people have translated the word differently? Thanks.

[@jakubbutkiewicz8880]

Thank you for this video, Roshi. In the "Two Zen Classics", there's another approach I think. A little similar to Roshi's Nishijima. For all of the koans from the Mumonkan and Hekiganroku, Katsuki Sekida wrote his comments. Very technical and raw. Only necessery informations, helpful to understand the circumstsnces from the koan. Who was the Master from the case for example, or some words about the place from the koan story. Anyway , I heard that Master Dogen didn't use koans in the teaching. Not in the same way like in the Rinzai Zen, but in the Teicho only, or for the completly begginers. What about present Soto Zen Masters? In my country, there are Soto Zen sanghas, and they practice with koans. Is in the Gudo Nishijima Masters's school are koans? Have you heard about Soto Zen with koans? Gassho

[@proulxmontpellier]

You may call me "roshi", since I'm getting old, but please don't do that to Brad! He's still got a few years to go! ;)

[@dhtm3577]

I’d like to thank you for the explanations and comparison. I also enjoyed the video you shared today with you and Stephen Batchelor. I dug Zen Flesh Zen Bones when I was just getting into Zen. Now I’m really almost annoyed at the whole koan thing. Borrowing from the title of a well-known book, I prefer to “Sit Down and Shut Up.”🙏

[@zacharyadam-macewen8723]

Hi Brad. Do you recommend the solo practisioner to read shobogenzo (or the shinji shobogenzo)? I am interested by it but i vaguely remember some old master or other commenting that you shouldn't put much weight in scholarship.

[@HardcoreZen]

I think its fine for a solo practitioner to read Shobogenzo or Shinji Shobogenzo.

[@proulxmontpellier]

And it's now available in French, thanks to me!

[@anoridinaryhumanbeing70]

Sir , please share your thoughts on the beautiful little book by Tai Sheridan , Buddha in a blue jeans , I have been "sitting quietly" ... -- just another folk

[@davidlaurin7009]

Read the koans Shinji.

[@Fakery]

Should we be reading koans for discursive intellectual understanding, like some twisted art film analysis, or is it something different?

[@t.c.bramblett617]

it's definitely not intellectual understanding, more like tools for breaking that effort at understanding. As with all these things, my words and view, which like all words and views might be just another block to kick aside ...lol

[@gunterappoldt3037]

The classic approach according to legendary Master Bodhidharma would be: "Entrance by reasoning, entrance by practicing!" (理入行入) If it`s all about communication: As much as we know, it can work (or fail, or not work, or not-work...) in many different ways, via many different channels. Paul Feyerabend, if he had gone Zen, might have had said: "Anything goes!" But, surely, not everybody would have gone d´accord with his "methodological anarchism". One fact, after all, seems to be that the standard Kôan-collections (Wúménguan, Bìyánlù, Congrónglù) are clearly l i t e r a r y works (formalized, standardized, intellectualized, albeit often in an "anti-intellectualist" style, etc.). So why not also use them as such? One may also ask: Does the "holistic paradigm" not also apply to the "logos of linguality"? And, moreover, no earnest linguist (some 20th centurie`s "classics": Wittgenstein, Austin, and Searle) would ever deny, in the synopsis, that language (i.e., audio-visual communication in the wider sense) also implies its own transcendence(s) or, with other words, "frays out a its fringes". These are some questions/matters surrounding the "Kôan-thing".

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

I’m not familiar with the koans literature used in Soto and Rinzai Japanese Schools. But I’m under the impression that koans are used to keep a busy mind occupy solving a puzzle that can’t be solved through the intelectual so the intelectual cracks and a different reality appears. I base this impression over the little “koans” giving sometimes as responses to questions during retreats by TNH (Vietnamese Zen).

[@lorenacharlotte8383]

@@gunterappoldt3037: Solve this one: “To be or not to be, that is not the question” Thich Nhat Hanh.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@lorenacharlotte8383 what is the question?

[@bokidimi5215]

10n dolllearrrs? wtf? 10 $? first? second ? 10$. yeevyeee......nishima? give him the 10 $#

[@osip7315]

i remember loori, or rather his minions pushing his commentary as the first on what he called "the three hundred koan shobogenzo" with a subtext of how it was all really his discovery, with some ghastly group meme of loori and tanahashi beavering away on this "sacred work" being made more sacred by these two living "saints" lol, i can see why they kicked me out, a dissident for sure it took me a while to figure out he was schizophrenic and then much longer to figure out all zen is schiz, dumb asses chasing who knows what whether its online zen or real life, its some sort of bad meme messing up peoples lives this maw of ravening idiocy you need some sort of prep to fall into, in my case it was being brought up in religious schools, most people it doesn't seem to effect, but it did me anyway john was very charismatic and convincing to the gullible, the only "teacher" whom i ever came across who really understood what she was on about was anti-charismatic, toni packer who was quite unappealing in that way so ever since i have been very wary of those fuaked in the head charismatic types

[@benhorner8430]

What did you get kicked out of? How did they kick. you out?

[@osip7315]

@@benhorner8430 the mt. tremper monastery to be fair they treated me well there, but it just wasn't gelling for me, it was all so much rubbish i had had a belly full of at boarding school, so i moved onto the providence zen center which i liked

[@bokidimi5215]

10 $? is that a big thing? 10$ can u not ignore 10 $

[@proulxmontpellier]

What's just a bit annoying with the "Chinese" pronounciation, is that it's the MODERN Chinese pronounciation, that of Beijing, which has wildly changed since the last 1000 years. Just check English of the same period, see if you can understand it...

[@gunterappoldt3037]

More exactly, the standardization of pronounciation has an even longer and more complex history, ranging, grossly speaking, from "Báihuà" (probably as early as Táng-Dynasty) to "Mandarin" (as lingua franca for Qing-officials), then from "May-4th-movement" reform-approaches (promoted by intellectuals, like Dr. Hú Shì, systematized by linguists, like Zhao Yuánrèn) to "Pûtonghuà" (VRC) and/or "Gúoyû" (ROC), which are phonetically more or less identical. Same applies for Nihongo/Japanese, mutatis mutandis, which yet has a shorter history and less local variants. On the other hand, there is---especially regarding pre-Meiji-times---this typical basic vacillating between On-yomi and Kun-yomi, the one based on "regional languages", the other on Chinese Wényán, mixed with some local variants of local dialects of Hànyû (and some Japanese thinkers build on the intrinsic flip-flop-psycho-logic a special "phenomenology of the Japanese character"). And nowadays, we have, in addition, the situation of a wide-ranging integration of the "Western" system, using mainly the Latin alphabet. What seems to be of some importance in connection with Kôán-literature is this: The correct nomenclature allows to indentify the "actors" as historical persons, which has relevance both for ancestor-worship (the Zen-style) as for hermeneutic exegesis. That things become more complicated by language-barriers (which may, dependent on circumstances, also function as bridges) comes in addition; it`s a bit like in the case of "Charlesman" (right orthography?) and "Karl der Große", both referring to the same "person of great historical importance". Sometimes, hermeneutics can mean hard labor, so to speak, but, ideally, one gets compensated by a surplus in intellectual clarity, or even deeper insight .... but that`s another story.

[@bokidimi5215]

buy another book? from dogen? NO

[@bokidimi5215]

10 $ TO UNDERSTAND?jeezzzsss, u gotta like theese, they speak well, say nothing, try to tell you ...damn, i cant understand..? brad, why are you a lier?