TF2: The Official Sniper Weapons Tier List

[@BlazingShadowSword]

I love using the shiv with jarate, just because I love hearing the mini crit every time someone bleeds.

[@RoyDJ1069]

piss bleeding infection :D

[@alvr3461]

Does it increase the bleeding damage?

[@BlazingShadowSword]

@@alvr3461 Yep. By one more.

[@alvr3461]

@@BlazingShadowSword good to know.

[@eleyaculadordelaverno1502]

BASED

[@OMalleyTheMaggot]

"We gotta move erratically and make our head harder to hit" Could have ended this whole analogy with "The sniper: lands the shot anyway"

[@leonardo9259]

Aim is rewarded, what gives?

[@OMalleyTheMaggot]

@@leonardo9259 Mfer did you pay any attention or what

[@leonardo9259]

@@OMalleyTheMaggot I did

[@rillafy7966]

@@leonardo9259 still unfair

[@leonardo9259]

@@rillafy7966 oh yeah it is, just for different reasons

[@dyllie1913]

The Bazaar Bargain is definitely the most overpowered rifle since they buffed it. I dont understand why Valve removed the downside of losing heads on miss cause that was literally the perfect way to balance it. The Bazaar Bargain never needed a buff and it's stupid that it got one

[@methmoth2558]

Wait, so if you miss they didn't punish you at all?

[@syd1467]

They punish you for dying

[@mrrooter601]

wait WTF? I hadn't played in a while, and when I do play sniper I just used my stock strange so I never really bothered with the other rifles besides the bows. THEY REMOVED THE ONLY DOWNSIDE????? the fuck is the plant smoking...

[@centri-sol]

@@mrrooter601 Itself, probably.

[@Tobi-co3hy]

@@mrrooter601 ikr? It's so fucked up because it forces every enemy to play passively so that you can't fucking sneak a full body shot or just straight up target you, it's a big snowball since skilled players would just abuse it

[@adrianmarc5430]

For the Sydney Sleeper, you forgot to mention the fact that it can also put out burning team mates. Similarly to the jarate, making it the only true support sniper primary.

[@coolguy-xd1bg]

It can't do that.

[@adrianmarc5430]

@@coolguy-xd1bg Can, do some research dude.

[@godaberi]

@@coolguy-xd1bg you just need to shoot your teammate when it's on fire, with or without scope

[@Iteration456-8_codename_goblin]

I have played tf2 for a little over 650 hours, and I have exactly one clip of me extinguishing a teammate

[@coolguy-xd1bg]

@@adrianmarc5430 I stand corrected. Man, it's really been able to do that for 5 years?

[@sussy3778]

Another problem with the Sniper is that his whole balance philosophy is based around skill, not fairness, Sniper has effectively infinite potential only limited by the player so while is rare that someone manages to reach a high sniper level if they do, they are basically unstoppable which is why the sniper bots have been so annoying to deal with it as they exploit Sniper's effectively infinite skill ceiling by removing the human element of it, all other classes in the game have high skill ceilings but they still have limits, this is also why Spy is the second-best class at taking care of snipers because he is the only who is not forced to directly engage with him or his teammates.

[@susragejr477]

Isn’t that kind of true for every class tho? If you get really good with a class like scout, if jpeg is anything to go by, you are a fucking menace.

[@prawn1717]

@@susragejr477 You're a menace, but not an unkillable one. A bot-run scout can be shot by a sniper, out dps-ed by a heavy, dealt with by a sentry, etc. A bot-run sniper kills anyone except soldier, heavy and demo (Edit: forgot Pyro exists whoops. Pyro can barely tickle a sniper though, especially a bot so whatever) instantly, in which case the second shot'll do it. The only "counterplay" is tanking the damage with a vaccinator medic, and then he just respawns.

[@fujiwaranovari]

nice pfp

[@susragejr477]

@@prawn1717 so really, a lot of these changes are to get back at bots

[@prawn1717]

@@susragejr477 No, I'm using bots as an example for the original poster's argument, as they show off that with perfect aim, sniper is nearly uncounterable, whereas every other class is fairly tolerable even with perfect aim. Amazing snipers are nearly untouchable, apart from other incredible snipers. Also, "getting back at bots" is a weird way to frame my argument.

[@mattf967]

My biggest problem with Sniper is the fact that unless you are also playing Sniper, your skill does not factor into your engagements with him. He either misses you (his lack of skill), hits you (his skill) or you equip the 'Fuck Sniper' items which is just selecting them in the loadout menu.

[@BiTreeFrog]

This video has convinced me to become a sniper main😊

[@torakazu2269]

For the increase reload time suggestion, they could add in additional animation for Sniper to actually be chambering another round, since his rifle is single shot, yet he only works the bolt and nothing else after every shot as if his rifle contains more rounds, when it doesn't.

[@susragejr477]

Yeah like the changes FSOAS suggested that could be cool

[@NeonBeeCat]

i feel like 5 seconds could be appropriate and encourage smg play more. also i think the bushwaucka should slow you down on equip

[@alec4025]

​@@NeonBeeCat5 seconds is insanely long

[@NeonBeeCat]

@@alec4025 idk i was probably sleepy af when i wrote that

[@inkubus6192]

@@alec4025 Would 2-2.5 second hard reload work better, do you think? Along with the other suggested changes?

[@barnebyoconnell8176]

"Sniper can do spy's job at any range with no effective counterplay except from other snipers" - The video There you go.

[@ThatD1spynser]

"He's so OP he is his own counter"

[@teuqueiroz3377]

He is a Better Spy lol

[@susragejr477]

Tell that to all the scouts that could jump-scare you at any moment

[@CoolSs]

Finally some gets it.

[@barnebyoconnell8176]

@@susragejr477 scouts have to get there. Snipers just shoot you.

[@NFGUN1T]

*I play TF2 consistently since 2007, and I'm mostly agree with this video. Long post.* Sniper isn't my most played class but he's in the middle. So I don't define myself like a "Godlike" Sniper by any means, but when the stars are aligned (or the heads) I can achieve great things. I mostly play on Payload Mode btw. So let me explain below: I would add few things for the Bazaar Bargain. For the downsides: 1- Sometimes this weapon can fuck your timing (especially these 2 first headshots to be at the default speed charge). So if I'm countered by a good sniper, I would preferably use the Stock Rifle to be sure that I don't shoot too fast and take the risk to not kill him but just hurt him because of the low speed charge or even worse being headshotted by him before I can secure a "quickscope" on him. 2- Sure, you're a real menace if you're well covered by your teammates and if you can land headshots consistently. But personnally when I've these 6 heads, I really try to really play carefully, I don't want to overexpose myself into certains "well known sniper spots" and die with all my heads and lose them, or even worse being killed by another class that can stole your heads like another Bazaar Bargain Sniper or an Airstrike Soldier but more commonly a Full Demoknight with the Eyelander ( *Yep, that shit demo subclass is broken AF on pubs* ). I'm also more cautious about Spy or other flankers, so I spent probably more time to look around me if my team didn't gave me enough cover and so ultimately my effectiveness is probably lower in certains sections of the map. ----------------------------------------------- But I'm totally agree with you, the Sniper is OP by nature and deserve to be nerfed somehow. To summarize: -*He's the only class that can kill anyone with only 1 bullet at any range*. The Spy can also oneshot other classes, but only with a knife, so he need to travel, remains undetected and finally try to backstab his target. -He uses single bullet sniper rifles (unless the Hunstman subclass), so it's a hitscan weapon (and nothing is faster than that) and these single bullets aren't affected by bullet spread. -On top of that like you mentionned in this video, he operates at long range in most cases (so it's a pain in the ass to reach him with a Spy for exemple), he has currently a lot of "get out of jail free card weapon's combo" at his disposal if he gets caught at close range, and he can tone down some class abilities (with DDS/Jarate against fire or Razorback against stabs ). -Last thing, a Razorback Sniper can really fuck the Spy, particularly on Payload Mode if he's on Red Team (due to the high amount of Sentries). He just needs to stay in the range of one Level 3 Sentry and the Spy wouldn't be able to stab him or kill him before the sentry was temporarly disabled by a Sapper or destroyed by it, or eventually destroyed by a teammate (So the only option for the Spy is trying to kill him at long distance with a gun and out of the sentry range). And in most scenarios, he can get caught by one or multiples enemies, or reveals his presence, or even worse, blocked by multiple sentries (if these sentries are in different location in a small/medium room), it's almost impossible to stab or gun down a Sniper, since the Spy would be automatically into one of the sentry's range (unless the sentry will be busy with something else for a brief moment). And done. I wouldn't modify the rating. Everything make sense here. ----------------------------------------------- *Few words about this video's series:* *Absolute joy to watch. You deserve more subs.* *Probably the most interesting episode to me (the others ones were top notch too), and one of my favorite TF2 Tier List to this day.* *Thank you for being a voice in the TF2 Community, a voice who cares about the true OG TF2.*

[@sunbae-nim]

Well said

[@mousecollector]

Damn you've been playing tf2 since 2007! Take this 🏆

[@narcolepticraytracing]

looking at their channel, they have been playing tf2 for a loooong time wow

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

Zesty actually gave good changes for sniper that don't punish skilled players' mechanics.

[@bl1tz533]

Literally any nerf to high tier sniper punishes skilled players.

[@bac0ntoast]

damage falloff is still the best change they could make imo, grounds the sniper and brings him closer to the team fight making him punishable, also makes him more similar to the other classes

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

@@bac0ntoast that would make charging the damage more practical. Also, crits should have falloff, splash rocket crits shouldn't deal 270 dmg

[@bac0ntoast]

@@the_womp_and_only9062 im confused so you agree or disagree? i think in general sniper's problem is his damage

[@the_womp_and_only9062]

@@bac0ntoast it sounds a bit drastic to me thinking to the ambassador but I do think it's worth experimenting with, especially with charging the rifle. Maybe you have to charge it more at longer ranges? Personally, I feel sniper should keep his quick scoping lethality but make it slower to reload and switch to another weapon

[@SDseb]

Snipers are the reasons why I stop playing the game daily years ago. It’s just not fun playing against it. Either you can’t play the game cause you’re just gonna get insta-killed. Or leave the game and join another one. Even then, there could be another good sniper on the enemy team. Which makes the cycle continue. Over many year of dealing with this bullshit, I just stopped playing, and only recently came back. But of course, with the bot issue, it hasn’t gone any better.

[@Enger1]

Lmao how Bad are you

[@N24-z5r]

@@Enger1 either they are cheaters or there just good

[@SDseb]

@@Enger1 By the looks of your comments on the Sniper’s Tier list video. You don’t agree with Zesty’s points. Which is fine, but if you think fighting a sniper that can kill you at any range in a blink of an eye is “fair”. Be my guest my friend.

[@Enger1]

@@SDseb Most snipers are pretty Shit / alright so even If He is so broken IT dosnt really Matter a good Scout or soldier is much scarier imo

[@NormalThe7th]

@@Enger1 A good scout is shit against a good soldier or a good heavy. Or a good engineer A good soldier is shit against a good pyro but a good sniper? nope , maybe a spy and otherwise just another good sniper

[@jfei64]

13:53 If you have only 1 take away from this entire video I want it to be this part. Just because something takes a lot of skill and is hard to use does not mean that thing is balanced. When another weapon that shall go unnamed (but you know the one) got nerfed you could hear its defenders crying into the night about "How could Valve nerf a highly skill based weapon while leaving the 0 skill Phlog untouched?" This is why. A skill based weapon is great and it's much better for a weapon to need skill to be effective than being brain dead. However, skill =/= balance and a weapon that requires 0 skill to be effective but is balanced with fair counterplay is a better designed weapon than a weapon requiring hundreds of hours of practice but when mastered is so effective that it has little to no reasonable counter play. Oh and just because I'm sure someone will misinterpret this if I don't clarify, by "weapon that requires 0 skill to be effective but is balanced with fair counterplay" I mean a theoretical weapon used only for the example and no one should assume I mean a weapon that currently exists. My reference to the phlog before should not be interpreted as me saying the Phlog is this theoretical "0 skill but balanced weapon" and I only mentioned the phlog because that was the main example used by people trying to use this fallacious argument.

[@bl1tz533]

Balance is inherently calculated by effectiveness/required skill.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

@@bl1tz533 WRONG. That's the formula for level difficulty in SINGLE PLAYER games. The formula for multiplayer weapon balance is "power at a cost" the bigger the potential of a weapon, the more rare/expensive/risky it is to wield. If you look at how other gun games balance sniper rifles: If it's an arena where the guns are scattered around the map, there's typically only one or two places you can acquire one, meaning you'd need to compete with other players just to acquire it. In economics games where you purchase your weapons, sniper rifles will be on the more expensive side, and likely also have a unique ammo type that's also relatively expensive. Now, neither of these can be implemented in TF2, since as a class base shooter anyone who picks Sniper is just given one out the gate. Thus, to balance the payoff of being able to deal massive damage, it's necessary to give it a big cost. And that cost has to be constant; you need to pay that cost every time you use the weapon. That's why "skill" is not a proper downside; you only need to learn the skill once; once you learn the movements, your body will just automatically continue to refine those movement through subconscious muscle memory. So once you reach a certain threshold, the payoff starts paying for itself as your skill naturally improves as you continue to use the weapon.

[@naqib0264]

Just realized that the Snipers thumbnail is pink meaning that his class is Broken (Needs Nerf/Rework). I might be wrong but hey, attention to detail.

[@nategraham1487]

Sick

[@vivelespatat2670]

As many details as TF2 itself

[@mauroghen]

hey guys reminder that when anyone talks about balance or anything, no need to be butthurt towards them since nobody truly has power over balance changes. not even the "comp dudes" that zesty likes to blame for some of the balance changes. at the end of the day, its all up to valve to choose. and unless asked, no suggestions are affecting them.

[@ZestyJesus]

hate mail's rollin' in

[@susragejr477]

@@ZestyJesus yeah why do you blame comp players so much? It’s not their fault valve are a bunch of incompetent c*nts

[@z1u512]

@@susragejr477 If a problem arises that one individual know they have no control over, most chose to cope by blaming others.

[@moraviancrusader3741]

@@susragejr477 They ask for a lot of bad balance changes in the first place. Case in point: The GRU, the Base Jumper, Eviction Notice, etc.

[@icicle_ai]

@@susragejr477 have you ever heard of "trickle down balance"?

[@chaoz7370]

I actually started using the Piss Rifle due to the tier list made by Fawful'sMinion, with the simple explanation: "Sniper is a support class, not 'demolish the entire other enemy team'" class. Plus, I cant aim, so Sydney Sleeper is my go-to if I am half-trying to be a decent sniper. No need to worry about headshots, just bodyshot them with full charge and let the damage vulnerability do the rest (if the team is competant lol)

[@TinTin-db7yc]

I also like Sydney snipers because it compensate my lack of aim and skill and is very useful for my team but mostly because piss rifle

[@sev1120]

I got the sleeper in a random drop and I used that as essentially training for sniper. Body shots are your friend, and the sleeper pumps them out faster than any other. Plus, it's support abilities are good

[@inkubus6192]

But why would I support, when I could just demolish the other team from a range that they can’t respond to?

[@welkingunther4298]

@@inkubus6192 Because most people overestimate their skill/aim level. Some snipers just camp and kill the same useless players over and over again, while there are stronger targets to take out and are way harder to hit. The piss sniper bodyshotting them either for 150 or less just to give them the jarate effect will shutdown demo-medic boyfriend/girlfriend combos with pretty much 100% consistency. If you can always land headshots no matter the situation, then go ahead. But they'll prob swap to vaccinator anyways :).

[@homesinc]

Jarate being +35% damage and no fall off is insanely broken. Just because teamplay doesn't exist in pubs, doesn't mean the weapon sucks. Jarate is definitely broken OP.

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

The fast recharge is a problem too. It does far more than the gas passer and recharges faster while sacrificing less.

[@Nyxael5845]

Jarate is Sniper's own Buff Banner that recharges in 20 seconds instead of dealing 600 damage

[@abilitymaster05]

13:53 THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS GOD I'M TIRED OF PEOPLE THINKING "HARD = BALLANCED"

[@shybandit521]

I think they should switch the Jarate and the Gas Passer's charge mechanics. Jarate charges with damage, Gas Passer is free.

[@hanro50]

The gas passer is actually in a beta state atm. Do note at the time it was implemented TF2 still recieved one large update a year. Anyhow...the idea was to test the mechanics on the gas passer then adjust them and add them to the mad milk and Jarate.

[@edgyname7170]

That's actually a good idea

[@halt1931]

so... why haven't they @@hanro50

[@ekyanso4253]

On the topic of the DDS, the resistance to afterburn is worse for balancing than people think. As a pyro player, the only way I can survive passing a sniper sightline (something which is necessary for a close-range class) is to pop a flare on the sniper and pass while the afterburn flinching will prevent him from headshotting me. It's also an important tool for supporting my team. Afterburn damage is negligible on a class that's so far from the front lines, but keeping him from quickscoping my team for a few seconds can be really useful. And this puts any pyro at risk as they're aiming, so it's not a free shot either. The DDS not only makes fighting them at close range a bad idea, now there's no way to make a sightline safe for passing. Not even a direct hit from the regular flare gun, the hardest to aim, will do shit. Oh and also it fucks over the Dragon's fury since its damage "bonus" straight up doesn't work on a class that literally cannot experience afterburn.

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

Sniper’s hunting rifle in tf2c should have been his primary since the start tbh

[@linear1224]

I don't really care about the implications that has on balancing out Sniper because I haven't used it for long enough to justify my opinion on that matter, but I will say this: The Hunting "Rifle" is actually a revolver that looks like a rifle, I didn't realise it at first but it made sense when I looked at the whole model of the Hunting Revolver rather than just the viewmodel.

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

@@linear1224 Yeah it's a revolver that can headshot, that's why it's better than a sniper rifle, it's far less annoying to fight against. It also make sniper less of a far range class (he's still effective from a far range though) and better in mid to close range, like almost every other class

[@bruschetta7711]

@@abdallatifalafandi2522 careful, the weapon might attract the same hate the Amby got

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

@@bruschetta7711 except sniper doesn’t have cloak or disguise and he doesn’t a melee that can insta kill a heavy by stabbing anywhere that isn’t heavy’s ball (totally not a facestab)

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

hell no.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

Honestly one thing that annoys me about the Danger Shield is that it seems to be made to counter how powerful the Scorch Shot is against snipers, which is infuriating because as ridiculously strong as the Scorch Shot is, it's basically the only weapon in the game that can actually be effective against Sniper at his own range, it lets you take potshots and harass the shit out of him to potentially keep him suppressed and give your teammates time to get around him. This should really be a commonly available tactic, but only one weapon is really practical to do that with, and then they fucking add a counter to it.

[@memevondank1197]

I mean if your accurate the flare gun can do really well against a sniper

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Basically all of his backpacks are meant to be hard counters to other people's soft counters to him. As if he wasn't difficult enough to counter, they give him stat packs that block the most effective counterplays without him needing to do anything.

[@WeeabooPocky]

i'm still thinking why the game has a voice line to advice about spies and sentries, but not for snipers. unless its mvm...

[@tron_the7the9]

I usually use the sentry ahead line when i see a sniper around, since they need similar precautions

[@hmmmstvethebaffled7720]

That would be really cool

[@presseagainidareyou4704]

Scout: “there’s a freakin’ Sniper up there!” Soldier: “Sniper ahead!” Pyro: (muffled) “Lousy Sniper’s blocking our way!” Demoman: “Bloody camper in me sights!” Heavy: “Baby Sniper forward!” Engineer: “That lousy coward’s after my head!” Medic: “zat Sniper is hindering my progress! Kill zem!” Sniper: “That bloke’s trynna show me up!” Spy: “ I do believe you fools should take out ze Bushman ahead”

[@Giantflyingflamingos]

@@presseagainidareyou4704 holy shit these are actually good

[@ekyanso4253]

@@presseagainidareyou4704 E

[@jonnykarkkainen9965]

Just removing the unscoped reticle and making the cycling animation include the bolt being pulled back would do wonders. Lower fire rate and harder quickscoping

[@theblakwarior]

no crosshair would do fuckall against good snipers, because after like 6k hours, you know where the center of your screen is.

[@tonyshum5569]

forcing snipers to go back to 2011 cyber cafe gaming tactics of glueing a piece of gum at the center screen to have your own man made reticle

[@susragejr477]

God no, lower fire rates?

[@AppaBoy]

nearly every custom hud in existance has custom crosshairs that arent actually crosshairs and just part of the hud

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

@@susragejr477 Yeah just a bit. I don't see why not

[@solgerWhyIsThereAnAtItLooksBad]

Sniper is around as powerful as medic No class should be as powerful as medic

[@warmchoccy]

a sniper's power depends on the map more than any other class, and sniper's playstyle is seriously out of place in tf2, considering mid-close range fights are every other classes thing, and sniper just never engages, and just kills people with no chance of counterplay.

[@Small_child_punter]

That first thing you said, about him being flawed as a concept is spot on. He’s the only class to have his base role imported from other first person shooters. He’s the only class to not be original. Tf2 isn’t like other games. Each interaction is so delicately designed for fair ground fights. Sniper does not play on fair ground. To add a sniper to a game, that’s just how it is.

[@TKsh1]

TF2 is a game that is designed with close range combat in mind too. If he's the most poweful at long ranges, he should be the weakest at close range, but he isn't.

[@susragejr477]

@@TKsh1 I don’t think sniper shouldn’t be allowed to not defend himself at close range.

[@TKsh1]

@@susragejr477 Not saying he shoudn't, but with two secondaries that shut down the main ability of two classes and a all-around crit combo is overkill.

[@DISGUYR8HERE]

@@TKsh1 if you die from smg and melee aside from quick scope you just suck but the sniper should have a reverse bullet drop so the sniper rifle isnt soo broken even in close range

[@susragejr477]

@@TKsh1 yeah get rid of the bushwaka combo and the high random crit damage that sucks

[@Anderson-kg5ex]

Sniper is the only class in the game that doesn't have a hard counter other than himself, and that's not good. Also, fun fact: Valve addressed two issues about the Sniper class design in the tf2 blog, and guess what? Instead of trying to fix these issues, they created the Huntsman So the real issue is still in the game, but now the enemy *can* (won't LOL) change their weapon to "play more fairly"

[@Electric_Bill]

What is the hard counter to soldier? Medic?

[@Calvin_Coolage]

@@Electric_Bill Scout and Pyro. Both are super close range where Soldier runs the risk of injuring himself and can either mitigate the damage they take by dodging or reflecting his rockets back at him.

[@Electric_Bill]

@@Calvin_Coolage both are only toss ups, not even soft counters.

[@taxevasion6309]

You're really saying the only class with free mobility to consistently get the high ground or dodge mid-range rockets in a 1v1 against a Soldier and the class that can literally reflect back his main source of damage with a 35% damage boost aren't even soft counters

[@Electric_Bill]

@@taxevasion6309 they are competitive with one another, but considered equals in comp.

[@slipperyfredREAL]

give sniper the laser from mvm, it would allow for counterplay while still keeping the stock stats people love

[@GogiRegion]

So this might be a connection most people won’t get, but I do Belegarth, which is a foam based sword fighting ruleset, and in that, archers basically end up being like that. You see them aim, and if you don’t have a shield you have to hide behind someone who does. It adds some extra strategy as opposed to just dying to something you can’t see.

[@slipperyfredREAL]

@@GogiRegion you're a nerd!

[@Nojirou_]

He does have a laser dot you just need to be more attentive, and respect his line of sight.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

And nerf quickscoping.

[@Appletank8]

@@Nojirou_ After 30 minutes every Sniper knows how to hide the laser dot. Also, when are you going to be looking for a tiny patch of color on the ground when there's rockets and bullets flying everywhere?

[@kreatona4219]

What I've never understood is why there's no glint for the sniper when he aims down. That and nerfing quickscoping would make Sniper much more balanced, though I could see those two nerfs as a little too much

[@susragejr477]

Honestly a lot of the nerfs zesty and some other people are suggesting would make sniper really damn boring

[@kreatona4219]

@@susragejr477 no yeah I agree. I just don't think the Sniper fits into tf2 at all because he disrupts the flow of the game. As he is now, he can be far too devastating without any counterplay which isn't fun for anyone

[@methmoth2558]

What if valve went for warzone sniper balance. So when the sniper crosshair is near or at your head it glow revealing his position giving you some time to react.

[@karlbischof2807]

@@susragejr477 thats because zesty is bad at giving ideas

[@karlbischof2807]

what do u mean glint?

[@solgerWhyIsThereAnAtItLooksBad]

Sniper having inverse damage falloff along with a jarate nerf might make him be more of a glass cannon. Not like valve would balance it at all though Edit: Jarate being separated from Mini Crits could be a good balance so that the whacker only works with the carbide

[@susragejr477]

Why is everyone so adamant on not allowing sniper to defend himself at close range with his primary. I get the bushwaka combo and the stock random crits, but why the primary?

[@swagguy7515]

because sniper is supposed to be a SNIPER great long ranged damaged, bad close ranged damage but with his sniper rifle, if you are skilled enough you can have both long and close ranged damage

[@susragejr477]

@@swagguy7515 yeah but thats not necessarily a bad thing. Unlike the retarded bushwaka and random crits, pulling off a close range headshot isn’t an easy thing to do, and it can save your life in a pinch

[@susragejr477]

@@swagguy7515 plus it’s just really fucking fun

[@browen531]

I don't get why people complain about close range headshots. They are so hard to pull off and it's smarter to use your melee instead.

[@cryosthesia77k69]

A thing I like to say: "In a game about moving and shooting, snipers choose to not move and barely shoot."

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Yeah, and you know shooting wasn't the main element of TF2, the 3 different RNG mechanics affecting damage are a testament to how the devs prioritized the "run" part of "run and gun"

[@Mythronies]

I guess i'm odd. When I played Tf2 alot (Before the bot cysis.) I was a demon with the Sydney Sleeper. I never cared about getting headshots, my thought was "Hitting the target is prime directive, headshots are optional.". If I got the kill cool if not, well he's covered in Lemonade and not long for this world. It was a win win in my eyes. Severely underrated rifle. Huntsman/Carbine = win. XD

[@susragejr477]

You sir are an unsung angel

[@mangothemike]

Guys, get over here! Zesty’s final tier list is here!

[@tylercoon1791]

Babe, wake up! Zesty Jesus’ final tier list!

[@ThatD1spynser]

Demoknight their list?

[@nitrax96]

@@ThatD1spynser he technically already done it i guess

[@ThatD1spynser]

@@nitrax96 now that I think about it, subclass teir lists

[@klifton1907]

Finally! Even more whining!

[@epicness877]

Tldr drag a picture of sniper himself in the "needs nerf/rework" tier

[@broom6847]

Anybody else remember the days where everybody would get pissed at you if you said Sniper was broken, and now everybody actually agrees that the class is horrifically busted?

[@animewolfOtakuwolf]

The problem with sniper is being the only class with an actual skill cieling that, once reached, negates every other class regardless of their own skill.

[@masternilla6652]

Yea heavy bot are easy to kill scout bots just stay far away soldier bots can't even do anything Engine bots not even a problem but sniper bots...

[@N24-z5r]

@@masternilla6652 What?

[@masternilla6652]

@@N24-z5r sorry for bad grammar

[@The-JAILOR]

"remove random crits on all of sniper's melees" why remove random crits on all the melees of a singular class when you can just remove random crits?

[@thatguybrody4819]

because some people see the magic of random crits and like the mechanic for what it can offer and want to keep it but make them more balanced instead of straight up removing a core aspect of the game.

[@Doombringer_r]

Zesty is in the remove random crits all together camp like most people, but he knows that’ll never happen

[@The-JAILOR]

@@thatguybrody4819 well crits can still exist, but randomly popping someone for 270 with a crocket for no reason other than "haha funny random crits are funny" isn't necessary for tf2 to function

[@thatguybrody4819]

@@The-JAILOR i'm in the keep them in the game category but fix them. they work on a damage dealt system which is kind of stupid, and maybe if they can't get it off that without borking up the spaghetti code, remove random crits from main weapons and keep them for secondary and melee or since there are achievements for random crits, lower the chances for certain weapons like rocket launchers and grenade launchers.

[@thatguybrody4819]

@@Doombringer_r yet he makes a server of his own that grants random crits. He might like them more than you think.

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

I'm suprised he didn't put every single sniper rifle into the Broken (Needs Nerf) territory.

[@theansweris9]

I'm gonna be honest i thought this was octo for a moment because of the pfp

[@Albert-yu1cg]

sydney sleeper?

[@bananaspice1967]

Classic and Sleeper are actually balanced

[@susragejr477]

@@bananaspice1967 if anything they are really underwhelming

[@jerryfcb1]

The problem isn't the rifles tho. It is the mechanic of how little time you need to be scoped in for a headshot.

[@Kaliser-Ion]

I think an important aspect that wasn’t mentioned is “Passive” Counterplay vs “Active” Counterplay What counters Soldier? A pyro, especially with the regular flamethrower. What counters Pyro? A Heavy, as he just outdamages pyro in their own effective range, aka right in your face. So if I’m struggling against any class/player, I can just pick the counter and whenever I’m confronted with said class, I’m at an automatic advantage. Not with Sniper. You’re never confronted with Sniper. You can pick Spy, Scout and Scorch Shit Pyro as much as you want, but if you don’t actively work to confront and kill the enemy Sniper, he wins. And he’s the only class to do so. All other classes are passively countered when you/they engage with you. Sniper forces you to engage him, which isn’t fun gameplay wise as it restricts you to flanking him over and over.

[@benismann]

and sniper can also deny pyro by just equipping 1 item

[@minegaming4526]

i hate it man, i was doing scorch shot dragons fury combo and i have consistenly hit my fire ball shots i still can't kill the sniper

[@weaboo8141]

@@benismann This, i have seen a lot of crap thrown against scorch shit pyro, even i joined the hate wagon against it but given the circumstances against a darwin sniper i can give the scorch shit a pass.

[@benismann]

@@weaboo8141 i didn't even mention scorch shot. It also denies regular flares and detonator flares, which is absolutely disgusting

[@benander6017]

@@benismann its not disgusting honestly, pyro needs more counters

[@JComix]

Game design wise, Sniper does fit perfectly within TF2's balance. There needs to be a class that prevents people from mindlessly standing out in the open and spamming into your team's nest. Unfortunately, Valve just didn't anticipate people getting insanely good at Sniper. His skill ceiling is basically limitless if you can hit your shots to the point where positioning as Sniper isn't important. He just needs a lower skill ceiling ESPECIALLY at closer range. In fact, Valve themselves even knew this. A quote from Uncle Dane in 2017: "I agree with you completely, and the good news is: when I went to Valve's offices last week and I spoke with the developers of TF2, they jokingly said that the only class in the game that they've considered removing is the Sniper (this was in response to ScottJaw joking that he wants Engineer removed). Of course, they would never go to the extreme of removing an entire class, but because apparently there are two people on the TF Team who are so good at Sniper that they have to split them up into different teams in order to make their internal playtests relatively balanced (one of them even said they've been reported for cheating multiple times when playing in Valve servers, which I think is pretty ironic; reporting a game dev for cheating in their own game), they seem to be quite aware of the power of a good Sniper and how it can negatively affect high level games. So, who knows... maybe a Sniper nerf will happen in the future, since it's at the very least on the developers' radar." If only they would update the game...

[@NuStiuFrate]

"There needs to be a class that prevents people from mindlessly standing out in the open and spamming into your team's nest" Yeah, it's the Spy, or rocket jumping soldier, or demo man spamming that area, or medic's uber or simply a better designed map. Sniper is not needed, the game can be balanced around him.

[@qcubic]

There was a suggestion of shounic’s where scoping in would trace a laser (similar to a wrangler) from his rifle to where he is aiming. Honestly, would be a welcome change. You could know where to strafe and sniper players would be rewarded for keeping their crosshair hidden.

[@hobowithamansion42]

Some ideas: 1.) Bodyshots no longer get extra damage from being zoomed in (for all rifles). This makes it so snipers HAVE to go for headshots to kill healthy targets. You shouldn't be able to do an easy 150 damage just by waiting 3.3 seconds. 2.) The initial damage of headshots is now 125, down from 150. Sniper will still be able to 1-shot light-classes with quickscopes and 2-shot medium classes with a quickscope and bodyshot. This will also make it so snipers can still 1-shot each other; preserving the pacing, strategies, and "feel" of sniper battles. 3.) Increase the reload time of the rifles. This will help punish missing.

[@he3004]

I will have to disagree, lowering bodyshot damage to 50 is stupid, I do think snipers charge speed should be reduced but definitely not the bodyshot damage, you would be doing 67 damage with sydney sleeper headshots, it would also mess up snipers headshot crits as headshots are simpy bodyshots damage multiplied by 3x Lowering headshot damage to 125 is kinda weird one, I have no idea what it would help with and I don't know whether to agree or disagree with it Definitely a longer reload on sniper rifle yes I agree

[@vivelespatat2670]

I have multiple suggestion : 1. Gives all rifles the MvM Snipers lasers when zoomed in. 2. Drastically increases reload duration along with a very obvious sound for the reload. 3. Gives rifles reverse falloffs, Sniper will now actually be WEAK at close-range. 4. Increases the time between scoping in and being able to headshot to something around 1-2 seconds, the Sniper will have to commit if they want to shoot someone. Half my shit is from FSOAS but whatever, any nerf to Sniper is a welcome addition.

[@mandrake6486]

i think snipers bodyshot should have damage falloff

[@galegopaulista4564]

I'm so happy to see the huntsman get the respect it deserves. The hitboxes may be pretty..... questionable....... But despite that, this is the one sniper primary that makes me not hate him entirely. It's really fun, and it doesn't feel too frustrating to fight against (unlike most other sniper weapons).

[@MTReisu]

yeah i agree. I dont play sniper, but when i do, i always used the Huntsman

[@galegopaulista4564]

@@MTReisu same here. Sniper is my least played class, but I still like to play Sniper every so often, just because of the Huntsman.

[@Fatsaver]

Literally the opposite for me. I hate anyone using that thing.

[@vivelespatat2670]

Huntsman and Classic forever

[@StickMaster500]

As someone who’s know for having a Sniper in their profile pic, I will have to agree that Sniper is absolute busted if put into the right hands since a lot of Pro Snipers are able to negate the Sniper’s downside of being weak at close range by either going for quickscopes that can kill half of the classes in one shot or using the Jarate-Bushwacka combo. I think all it needs like you’ve mentioned is increasing the duration that headshots register so you have to somewhat hardscope in order to get a headshot and possibly giving most of the Sniper Rifles a slower reload. It’s been a treat watching these tier lists every week!

[@ShakerSilver]

Longer reload would be far more effective than increasing the time for a headshot to "register". HiGPS tried out the latter and it just made a hardscoping, defensive Sniper (the actual serious problem with sniper and not quickscopes you fucking whiners why am I a heavy main needing to defend sniper) even harder to kill because it nerfs countersniping.

[@susragejr477]

@@ShakerSilver yeah that’s a great idea

[@fernandonepomuceno7148]

Helo

[@susragejr477]

@@fernandonepomuceno7148 yes

[@frostbite5081]

I say keep the quickscope speed but give all the sniper rifles a magazine of 4 shots and a max ammo capacity of 12-20 while being able to reload only 1 bullet at a time.

[@-CallMeJack-]

Video idea: Movement and Dodging/Duking and the difference. (Dodging being the act of avoiding something already coming towards you, juking being the act, mostly on hitscan, of making your opponent shoot where you arent.) I know it may seem lackluster but i feel as if a video on actually teaching good movement and avoiding damage could be good.

[@reagansido5823]

I'm glad you explained the problems with sniper. For me, I'm just not very good at the game, which means i can't really pinpoint the problems since every class can kill me quickly. But everything you went into detail on was very digestible. So i understand the OP nature of the sniper now. Thanks!

[@susragejr477]

Sniper is not THAT op, zesty is a little salty

[@GogiRegion]

@@susragejr477 He’s definitely as OP as Zesty said, it’s just that you don’t encounter Snipers at the skill level he describes very often at all.

[@susragejr477]

@@GogiRegion because that kind of sniper is not even human

[@susragejr477]

@@GogiRegion sniper isn’t uncounterable, it’s just harder to do it with him than other classes

[@Appletank8]

@@susragejr477 I agree that when you have an average person playing TF2, all classes are reasonably balanced. Zesty is pointing out that Sniper is the only class that gets increasingly dangerous with almost no limit the better they get, meanwhile no matter how good a Scout gets, he can't easily fight a well placed sentry gun.

[@travisjones3120]

I suggest a reverse damage falloff similar to the crossbow, and a slightly lower quick scope damage, maybe 140 and where at close range it is dropped a little bit father to like 120

[@DinnerForkTongue]

That sounds pretty much perfect.

[@weaboo8141]

preach.

[@susragejr477]

That’s actually not a bad idea

[@ArcFenixDelacroix]

Ikr, Bodyshotting a medic isn't a "skill"

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@ArcFenixDelacroix It's a point-and-click adventure.

[@CHEH_tf]

Im not gonna lie, the arguments that Zesty makes about sniper's desig as a whole are just all true and accurate (get it?). I really thought this was just a skill issue from him ever since he made the quickscope video but no

[@drunkscotsman7038]

Sniper mains on their way with their keyboards to type a 50 page essay about how sniper isnt broken

[@cornocob7144]

Nah, everyone can have their own opinions

[@weaboo8141]

i can guarantee you that "sniper requires a lot of skill to play" or a sentence no far from that to be there at least 5 times.

[@hylind1912]

Zesty for 94% of the video: I hate this class with a seething rage, everything he has is so busted and desperately needs to be fixed. Zesty for 6% of the video: ayo huntsman kinda cool

[@corporatecanine6030]

I got the idea into my head to somewhat "fix" the Razorback. No clue if you;re interested or n0ot to hear, but I'll put it out there regardless. >no longer backstab immune >backstabs still stun the Spy and/or zap them for a % of their health >backstabs do not apply backstab boons, like the Kunai's health bonus, the Big Earners cloak and speed boost, and the Reward's disguise and silent kill This gives Snipers a way to "dissuade" backstabs without becoming immune to them. It gives Spies back the ability to stab them, but forces them to weigh the pros and cons of doing so. Do they get the pick but risk being caught out by the Sniper's teammates with the stun/damage? And stabbing wouldn't provide any stab boon, so theres that to consider.

[@diamondsfarms461]

“Why would you use the tribalman’s shiv and jarate?” Simple: Piss in open wounds

[@JoshGolus]

The idea of significantly reducing the ammo cap for Sniper is actually really good, and he's my favorite class to play.

[@MuichirouTokito416]

An idea to rework on Bushwacka: _Added "This weapon deploy and holster 50% slower" _Added "-20% slower firing speed" _Added "-15 max health on wearer" (if needed) _Remove the "20 damage vunulrablelity on wearer" (if needed)

[@bibisebi]

whenever I voiced criticism of the sniper I always get something along the lines of "just get good" or "play more tf2 and get better"

[@MrPomegranX]

I think increasing the reload time AND less Ammo are the perfect nerfs. Still rewards skillful play and aiming for quick scopes and hard scopes, while punishing those who miss and give a need to reposition when ammo runs dry

[@MrPomegranX]

What you preposed for the Bizarre Bargain is also perfect. Basically a more extreme stock. Rewards better aim (faster charge on headshots) but also punishes misses (loses a head, slower charge)

[@susragejr477]

I just hope any of these changes don’t make sniper too slow tho, being able to pull of something like lazy purple’s rampage on Frontier is so much fun

[@MrPomegranX]

@@susragejr477 Since I’m not saying to add the quick scope nerf, he will still be that, just with more incentive to move for ammo and actually land his shots

[@susragejr477]

@@MrPomegranX yeah that I like. How slow would the reload speed be exactly?

[@MrPomegranX]

@@susragejr477 I’m not saying *extreme slow* just slower then now. Around a second or so is all you need in combination with less ammo (and I mean way less ammo)

[@Mirthful_Midori]

One thing that annoys me about people who act like sniper is fine as is, is how they always act like you're fighting a sniper in a vacuum. Not only does sniper have ways of shutting down his counters, his teammates do too. Can't flank that sniper as scout when the engineer's sentry shreds you before you get close. Spy? Not only is spy countered by pyro, but the sniper has razorback and jarate. You're also always subject to getting sniped as any class, but you're especially helpless if you get caught de-cloaking as a spy.

[@ilikemusic3856]

Fishstick on the stick said sniper has "counters" in favour of some weapons. First of all why do I have to have specific weapons just to counter a sniper. Second most of the counters he mentioned are weapons that annoy the snipers for a few seconds not necessarily hard counters. So you are telling me to have specific weapons in my loadout just to somewhat annoy snipers. B A L A N C E D.

[@RickJaeger]

Funnily, the Scorch Shot which he so cartoonishly hates is one of the best tools for pestering and obstructing snipers who are bullying everyone across the map.

[@ilikemusic3856]

@@RickJaeger Let's be honest. Scorch Shot counters EVERYTHING.

[@IceColdPistol]

Honestly I just kinda checked-out of whatever FSoaS has to say on Sniper, because he's a Sniper main, and he owns up to that. Anything he says on the topic of Sniper balance is gonna be heavily biased because he doesn't want his main nerfed into the point of being fair

[@ruktipp2627]

2007 - 2019: "I sleep." 2020 - Current Day: "Mf sniper op af wtf." Just an observation

[@cleptosartsgaming3378]

I'm all for the tracer mechanic, maybe even add like a glint effect for when he is scoped in to make him more visible. Maybe even reduce his health to like 90. I mean, it would force the sniper to pay extra attention to his surroundings so he won't get insta clapped by a loch n load or pipe spam, forcing better positioning, further making him a glass cannon and increasing his skill requirement. This would further discourage the bushwacka jarate run in and kill everything tactic as well but also for good measure, make the jarate cover the sniper in piss too if thrown in close proximity to the sniper, I mean it can stop fire, he obviously covers himself in the stuff. So, with the health debuff, it would make peppering him from a distance a lot more reliable as a deterent to close in distance since he can take a lot less, the jarate combo would be more fair to deal with, it would turn into a power gap closer kind of duel thing and basically, he'd be forced to stay in his long range to be effective in general. And maybe, instead of giving him something like the danger shield and razorback as a fuck you to two classes, give him stuff like maybe a trap. A can chime to help him stay aware of his surroundings. Whenever an enemy walks over it, it would play a sound, giving an aware sniper with good positioning, a chance to run away. Obviously, make the trap visible but not "Hey look at me!!! visible" That way, it would be useful but not without counter. That way, we drop the sniper's power level without taking away the dopamine factory that is the headshot mechanic. Boom, that's what I'd say would balance sniper without making him absolutely shit. But that's just my opinion.

[@The-JAILOR]

ehh maybe make it 100 health instead of 90, giving him about the survivability of a big earner spy sure a loch and load demo could still one shot him from across the map, but I don't feel like anything short of a kunai spy should be one shotted by the base damage of a stock rocket launcher or meatshot from the stock shotgun like sure he may be a bs overpowered class and all but I don't feel like he deserves such a heavy nerf

[@inkubus6192]

I always liked Widowmaker’s sniping mechanics in Overwatch, and thought Sniper could use some of the same quirks. A tracer on ever rifle shot, and a distinct sound when a shot almost hits you would be perfect for TF2.

[@brickwall9781]

I think that increasing the time to scope-in would be a great boon in nerfing Sniper without making him more unfun to play. I wouldn't be sure about simply decreasing ammo, but more like making him have to reload. 4 shots in a clip and something like 12 spare. Less ammo would incentivize more careful use of it, meaning less body shots & more hardscoping to charge it, but having to find ammo sources so often might be less fun, so I'd say reloading does the same without bringing that. It'd also give other weapons considered underpowered some leeway to be tinkered with and made fun and unique, like the Huntsman now being comparatively more useful, or the Classic being potentially made for more of an offensive role.

[@AlextheLordofFire]

1:04:00 If I remember correctly, the bounding box clipping only takes effect if you are missing the arrow. The game checks where the arrow is going, and if it misses the head, then it applies the bounding box, so even if heavy’s bounding box is smaller, if it’s going for the head it still hits the head.

[@casualcrusader1547]

14:00 an example of difficult things being unbalanced in another game is LoL when that one griffin angel thingy (idk its name im not a degenerate lol) was weak with noobs but oppressive at the professional level.

[@Brown95P]

Here be my balance suggestions, assuming Zesty's suggestions about all sniper rifles and melees are put into place: Bazaar Bargain: make it lose one head if it didn't headshot on scoped hit Bushwacka: give it a considerably slower deploy & firing speeds on top of the existing damage vulnerability Jarate: switch its (and scout's mad milk's) refill mechanics with pyro's gas passer's Darwin's D-Shield: remove both current stats, then only add the +25 max hp and +20% explosive vulnerability stats back Razorback: remove the electrocution that happens to the Spy who backstabbed it while still blocking that one backstab and keeping overhealing impossible on wearer Machina: keep its bright tracer (while the other sniper rifles get the classic one instead) Sydney Sleeper: give the weapon a headshot kill icon as well as the headshot score bonus whenever you kill with its mini-crit headshots Classic: make non-fully charged headshots deal mini-crits and give those the same headshot treatment as stated above Cleaner's Carbine: give a decent amount of crikey on kill Tribalman's Shiv: cut the swing damage reduction from -50% to -25%

[@ShakerSilver]

>Sniper can go from running and jumping around to instakilling 5/9 classes in the game in less than half a second Hm, yeah that's a fair assessment. Otherwise I agree with your proposed changes, he does require better visibility and be required to reposition/slow down more. However, you really got the bushwacka and jarate backwards - the on demand minicrits on a short cooldown is the broken thing, not the very situational melee weapon. It's like the Buff Banner but you just have to wait a bit, and you also get it right out of spawn. It would be far less spammable if the Sniper had to charge it through damage and thus had to be more conservative with tossing it.

[@MaxxYurri]

That is a great idea

[@susragejr477]

Yeah jarate definitely needs a nerf, I’m surprised he didn’t put it in broken tier

[@wolfgangervin2582]

Honestly the Sniper in TF2 is a lot like Capcom's late 90s/early 2000s fighting games (I.E. Third Strike, MvC2, CvS2). Sure, it's one of the best examples of it's genre, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious balance issues.

[@ratsmacker676]

Also fun as he'll if you know how to play it

[@SoldierMan755]

The finale approaches, now a victory we'll sing!!

[@wingedbluj1674]

In the journey, we've come far

[@teaganpatel3790]

ALL HAIL THE ORIGAMI KORIGAMI!

[@Pirateer5]

glad you put piss rifle in its proper tier, syndey sleeper is easily one of the most underrated/underused weapons in the entire game

[@LARAUJO_0]

23:25 I disagree. Other support classes (Medic, Engie, Pyro, and arguably Spy) all have ways to directly assist their team, whereas Sniper is mainly focused on killing individual people at a time like Scout. That's not to say pick and power classes can't have support items of course 43:19 46:11 What if the Razorback and DDS made the Sniper take more bullet damage to rebalance them? 1:01:08 I personally would put the Huntsman in broken tier because of how dumb the collision hull headshot registration is. If it took into account where the arrow's travelling it'd be fine

[@vesper_nova8364]

I'm somewhat new to TF2, only starting it in late July of this year. Finding your videos on this tier lists does feel helpful for me to try and understand weapons better and make my gameplay better. I'm dumb when I read so sometimes I don't understand what is considered good or bad in this game unless it's that stupidly obvious or I heard people state it enough. Of course, I understand they are your opinions, so I'm still taking it upon myself to decide if I should use a weapon or not depending on what you state. Like for example with the Engineer class, I get the gunslinger is really good, but I just can't see the appeal to using it than a wrench, even if it's worse. That's just me, cause I'm weird, properly. Even though, it was annoying that Sniper had to be last for me to gather what's good for the class, however, I get why so I'm not fully mad over it. I do understand he's broken, and yet I do main him at the current moment. I still wish things could be fixed, like the rifles of all things. Like, they possibly should be slower with either reload or the charge, on top of they should work as a real sniper rifle with determine range/angle of the gun to get a kill properly then being infinite. Before going into your video, what I always had was the Huntsman, Jarate, and Kukri, and once while switching to the SMG if I'm in the mood. I don't have every weapon of his, but the ones I did get I never was too big on. For example with any rifle. I told people over my life, if I had to choose between a gun or a bow, I would always do a bow. So, when it came to this game and I heard the Sniper class had that option, that's why I was attracted to him and tried to get good with him in order to get the bow. On top of why I like him, is because I just prefer being more distant at times than always in battle cause I panic too easily and or I never play shooter-style games to get how to fight properly. I liked the huntsman because it just felt fun and satisfying when I get a kill over a rifle, or even just with the class in general than any other. At least for me anyway. I also liked the huntsman since it'll kinda force me to be more in the battle, then far away, and get into fights and or it'll not make people as angered by a random snipe. Also, I prefer it for the cosmetics I'm wearing, it just fits better than the rifle cause I got the trophy's belt, koala compact & airborne attire. I use the Jarate to try and get achievements, plus it'll also force me to watch my shots since I only get one chance then the SMG. I didn't know it's also good when my teammates attack, so I was actually doing good blindly. I don't have the Bushwanka to be a wanker with the Jarate, but I was planning on getting it because I thought it was good without the Jarate on top of it looks cool, but now I'm not worried about it because of everything you stated. The SMG I use once in a while if I'm just that badly sucking that round and I wanna better defend myself. I never once used the razorback cause I never found the appeal. I also wish to better hear spies, on top of not ruining a spy player's fun, and even more so I don't want to sacrifice an attack weapon that I highly would need more than just getting rid of one spy from this. Everything else I have no opinion on because I'm not worried about it, and or I knew it's either to OP and I don't wanna be a bastard, or it sucks horribly. My apologies for writing so much, I wanted to get my thoughts out there. The video was great and very helpful along with any other you've made. Do keep up the great work.

[@Monkey_XDD]

Keep at it dude. This game is amazing when you play it casually. No need to sweat over some ranks, just have fun :)

[@vesper_nova8364]

@@Monkey_XDD Awe, thanks. Yea, so far my experience has been fun, yet also frustrated but only toward myself. I'm trying to enjoy it all anyways, even if I suck at it still.

[@tsuaririndoku]

I do agree, Sniper is the only class in the game cannot get punnished easily. I mean that is why Bots using it abusivly. How to balance out Sniper? Charge shot can do 450 damage but a default quick scope headshot can only head shot light classes. Means it only deals 140 damage per headshot or keep the 150 headshot damage, makes this gun cycle the shot slowe, being a bit more realistic Bolt Action instead of flickering up and down. Remove the cursor on sniper when he isn't scoped and makes bullet spread crazy when he is unscoped like what Valve did in CS.

[@ZTLGsmashultimate436]

I agree with the issues on sniper I hate that sniper is strong at melee range. Valve really needs to fix sniper and make him more of a glass canon

[@susragejr477]

Get rid of the bushwaka combo and the crazy random crit damage, but sniper should still be aloud to defend himself at close range with his primary

[@vivelespatat2670]

@@susragejr477 Or you know Equip the SMGs, they were designed to help the Sniper at close range

[@danielsurvivor1372]

1:00:15 Hard disagree here. Theory-Y made excellent video about Huntsman and while he did recommend smg, he also heavily recommended Cozy Camper. Here's my personal opinion why Cozy is better. First of all, if you fight any serious threats like scout or Demoknight with heads, switching to smg is just slower then trying to shoot a twang at them (that's how Theory-Y calls almost zero charge arrows). If you fight any slow enemies then you have even less reason to use smg, literally just learn how to position yourself so when you encounter those enemies you have enough arrow charge to headshot em, if they're close to you then it's easier to aim said shots and id you miss, well, you likely will die before taking out smg. If you have distance advantage it's slightly ok to use smg but again why not use huntsman? It's projectile is pretty fast and decently forgiving. Also a nice bonus of Cozy Camper is that it forces you to git gud with Huntman, with smg you basically have a crutch for failed headshota but without it, you subconsciously forced to learn your matchups and play better. Finally, even if allat isn't convincing. I'd still argue health regen for huntsman sniper is vastly more useful than regular sniper. Unless you plan to camp big hp packs all game you'll constantly be taking dmg here and there, cozy camper allows you to constantly regen health which keeps you battle ready at frontlines. Sorry for late comment, if you ever see this comment I hope I even slightly changed your mind on huntsman+cozy camper combo! 😅

[@Majima_Nowhere]

I'm gonna miss this series.

[@susragejr477]

This tier list and that tangent he went on about the short circuit were cursed as hell tho

[@susragejr477]

And the Kunai as well

[@sunlitsol5454]

How to balance Sniper 1. Remove all primaries except Sleeper, Classic, Huntsman/Compound, and Machina 2. Make Classic the new Stock 3. Add the Revolver Rifle from TF2 Classic 4. Give all Primaries (except Hunstman/Compound) reverse damage fall-off, but only on headshots. You cannot get a crit headshot if a target is within a certain distance of HUs. Have it be, say, the length of the 2fort bridge. The Huntsman/Compound can headshot at any range. 5. Increase the Bushwacka's increased damage to 60%. Any class with a shotgun (Scout, Soldier, Pyro, Engineer, Heavy) that gets close should be able to one-shot the Sniper, and Spies using any revolver should two-shot them. 6. Remove Razorback and Darwin's Danger Shield. 7. Double the amount of time Jarate takes to respawn, and cause the Sniper to get coated in it if he throws it too close. There, sniper is balanced for TF2.

[@susragejr477]

Zesty shits on game design out of salt for an hour straight

[@JillTheWitch]

Sniper is a glass cannon he's not hard to outgun

[@xavior1352]

@@JillTheWitch sure hes a glass cannon but hes a glass cannon in a castle with the ability to kill in a quarter of a second.

[@susragejr477]

@@xavior1352 *distorted Boston laughing*

[@presseagainidareyou4704]

@@JillTheWitch not hard to outgun yes, but because of how random crits work and how they are amplified, Snipers melee crit rate is one of the highest in the game and combined with them almost always being in small rooms, killing a Sniper out of his element is still incredibly annoying and that isn’t even accounting for dealing with his team before and after fight the Sniper

[@susragejr477]

Also I don’t get why zesty was made about sniper being able to kill 5 out of the nine classes so quickly, when every other class is capable of doing that and potentially even more

[@pseudonymgaming3541]

Honestly, the Bushwhacka is fine, but the piss is broken. It has support, can help with self defense, and helps with the scorch shot. Sniper Knight is funny.

[@thatguybrody4819]

ok, my argument with the classic is that it is B tier, having the entire battlefield be your sightline and in so being able to choose the most valuable target before zooming in is powerful. and it should be able to fire off ground. maybe not jump, but having your shots constantly cancelled because you were dinked a millimeter off the ground and dying because of that is the _WORST_ feeling. but i wish we could jump with it. it would make it infinitely better. perfectly balanced then.

[@ekyanso4253]

Also spies and scouts see you as an easy kill, turning around and oneshotting them at point blank range is super satisfying.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Jarate still in broken tier without bushwanker. Jarate is basically free team wipe if you have proper team. It should start off at zero charge like gas passer and it's charge is slow and you can speed it up via dmg. There, very balanced. And ofc it shouldn't let bushwanker crit enemies

[@requiemuk2351]

The darwins danger shield, is so annoyingly broken. So u cant deal afterburn on the sniper at range to jarr his shot. Making you redundant. Also u cant quickly 1 2 him woth axtinguisher or flares, meaning he can also just run at u and crit u, without afterburn and a decent pool of hp. I hate hate hate hate hate this item, so much.

[@Snaq_Paq]

Zesty, I just wanted to tell you... Sniper is balanced. Stay mad. Love your shit, tho.

[@Snaq_Paq]

I think if Valve fixed random crits, people would be more okay with Sniper, since people could actually punish him at close range. That's an issue with the game, tho, not Sniper himself.

[@pandemonium2536]

Your profile pic is accurate to the validity of saying sniper is balanced.

[@Snaq_Paq]

@@pandemonium2536 I will take that as a compliment.

[@pandemonium2536]

@@Snaq_Paq I can respect that. At least your self aware. Good day to you.

[@Snaq_Paq]

@@pandemonium2536 Good day to you as well.

[@superequinox4185]

The sniper rifle's firing noise should be audible from any point on the map. Just like the spy's decloak sound, it should be a way to know for sure that there is an active sniper on the enemy team instead of being blindsided when you spawn into a game. It would also punish the sniper for missing more because it would ruin his element of surprise. Any change that makes it harder for a sniper to hide is good for me. Lowering his ammo reserve is another one I like

[@WhiteWeaseI]

I like what you did with the colors for the tier list videos, and that you posted them all sequentially. It looks super satisfying.

[@yesteryears]

i can already hear the sweaty sniper mains typing up a storm

[@leonardo9259]

if anything its more people blowing zesty telling him he is right tbh

[@bananaspice1967]

I mean, I am a sweaty sniper main, and I completely agree with this lad

[@certifiedmoron6348]

im pretty sure every sniper main agrees, and thats why they play sniper. cus hes broken

[@yesteryears]

@@bananaspice1967 good on you for not being salty and shit bro lmao

[@yesteryears]

@@leonardo9259 yea kinda

[@senorsac7927]

im a sniper main and i think most people overreact in terms of rebalance, but these ideas make total sense, and its also in the style of valves rebalancing i.e awp changes in cs history are decreased ammo, speed nerf, scope sound being louder, reload time extended, and most recently a multiple second tracer added

[@Leo_8753]

sniper should have his ads time nerfed to prevent quickscopes along with a longer reload animation.

[@darkbeetlebot]

You know what? I'm going to say it. Just lower his base damage, and increase the amount it increases from charge. That's it. Make it impossible for him to quickscope instant kill people.

[@privatepessleneck]

IMO the sniper isn't really OP he's just 'weird' or problematic, which is to say sniper match ups are onesided, like either he's shooting you from afar or he's overwhelmed because you got in super close, and while there are some ways to fight sniper, flares, spy, lesser extent stickybombs charged to mortar, but what is a bit problematic is that sniper has two unlocks able to hard counter, being the shield and razor back, and stickies not always having a clear shot to hit a sniper. but I think a problem with nerfing the sniper at large is tricky because I feel its hard to nerf the sniper on the high skill level without gimping the low level to make sniper nigh useless. but not even Valve really knew what to do with sniper, I mean the sniper vs spy update was about giving sniper weapons to encourage him getting closer to the front lines to have a higher risk of getting attacked. or how in MVM snipers have laser sights. but I don't think sniper is op as the only time he'd be op is if the player was super perfect, or hacking.

[@methmoth2558]

Probably if they make sniper use clip instead of his current 25 invisible mag he will be a bit more balanced, then make the reload load a single bullet at a time.

[@sunbae-nim]

I don't think you've looked enough at the arguments for why Sniper IS OP. The point is anyone that clocks at least 2k hours into that class are effectively an aimbot with no other counter-play other than another sniper. There's a reason why in competitive 6s if one team runs Sniper the other HAS to otherwise they're at a disadvantage. All those counters you mentioned don't work against 2k+ hour snipers; and thats the problem with sniper, a sufficiently skilled Sniper effectively makes the game unfun and uninteresting for anyone EXCEPT the sniper when they can fuck everybody and go unchecked. Its a shame really, if he was introduced with the Huntsman instead of the rifle no one would have any issue

[@methmoth2558]

@@sunbae-nim i can agree with that, but unfortunately the core of a sniper class is to kill people from afar, so it'll not be easy to balance him in that part.

[@Appletank8]

@@methmoth2558 Zesty mentioned that, all that does is make the Sniper be lane clearing in 5 second bursts, he can still be devastating when he has ammo loaded. As for the balancing discussion, the Sniper is just the odd one out in terms of game design, feeling like the only reason he exists is because he existed in TFC. Everyone is a close or mid range class, except for Sniper. Everyone normally can't safely do OHKO's regularly (taunt kills, spy getting into melee in enemy territory, random crits are random) except for Sniper. Everyone has damage falloff, _except for Sniper_ (and Demo, but he's range limited by gravity). He just doesn't fit the game, outside of Huntsman, which makes long range fighting near impossible.

[@privatepessleneck]

@@sunbae-nim though sniper was truly op, wouldn't games just be all snipers since the only true counter to a sniper is another sniper? I think an important thing about sniper's power that the video didn't go over is map layout can influence the effectiveness of a sniper. some maps have more fair sightlines for dealing with sniper so you can surprise him easier than on other maps. But overall, while I do think sniper needs some changes, like tracers for all sniper hitscans, I don't think he's this op unstoppable being, at worst he has one sided matchups that are not really engaging like other match ups.

[@Collisto2435]

Sniper Nerf: - Reduced max primary ammo from 25 to 10. - All sniper rifles have the same tracers as the Classic and have a louder firing sound. - Longer reloads across all sniper rifles. Weapon changes: - Bushwacka: Either 'Marked for death while active and removal of the damage penalty' OR 'Increased deploy speed'. - Cozy Camper: No longer stops flinching. User regenerates ammo for their primary weapon. - Heatmaker: Is unaffected by the increase in shot sound mentioned above.

[@chrisbingley]

Sniper does 450 damage from the far side of the map: "This is fine and perfectly balanced." Demo randomly does 300 damage with a pill at mid range: "That's unfair, remove random crits."

[@meimmakoto3224]

Reminder to the huntsman part that dont forget that these head hitbox maps differently dependent on the scouts direction of face, since bounding box stays in a lateral xyz direction where as the scout can turn himself. Effectively these hitboxes could change DRASTICALLY dependent on if the choke point is xz lateral or in a diagonal, effectively making the huntsman either better or worse.

[@officialkiadimundi4319]

I guess when zesty uses the sydney sleeper, he really likes to PISS sniper mains off

[@CrabKFP]

I mean, If you don't name your Piss rifle "Sorry to Piss you off" or "did I piss you off?" just to tilt sniper mains you have failed in life

[@officialkiadimundi4319]

@@CrabKFP True, Gotta love messing with those sniper mains

[@flashtirade]

As for balancing the sniper, the bare minimum I'd start with is making the sniper's aim sway for a bit while scoping in. This effectively destroys quickscoping outside of pure luck. Any class that gets in close range with a sniper, where he should be at his weakest, should always have the advantage in the fight. For the power he gets at long range where he can't be challenged, he doesn't get to pull fights out of his ass like the other classes can. Another mandatory change is reducing the ammo count to 10-12 and increasing the reload time (including a bolt pull animation because it's stylish af). This forces the sniper to either hang around ammo boxes or retreat to them more often, which restricts the amount of time he can stay on sightlines and puts him in locations where flankers are more likely to visit. If that's not enough I'd include scope glint. This helps anyone trying to avoid being sniped have a better idea of where they need to go to be out of the sightline, but only if they're paying attention. Tracer rounds on all snipers is a bit of a halfway change. It doesn't stop the first victim from being killed (assuming the sniper is good), but it puts the rest of the team on alert. The last change I can think of is super drastic, and it's making the sniper's laser visible to everyone throughout its entire range and not just the dot at the end. The sniper's location and sightlines would always be broadcast to the enemy while scoping, so they can act accordingly. They'd even have an easier time outfoxing his aim since they can see if their maneuvers are working or not. This would be the nuclear option if all the other nerfs combined weren't enough to bring him down to a level playing field. I don't think it'd be necessary, but who knows.

[@nocow4167]

Fighting sniper makes the game seem a lot less like an fps game and more like a Vietnam simulation.

[@DigitalSolstice]

I personally like the idea of 1. giving all sniper rifles scoped tracers and 2. giving sniper damage falloff, along with some other tweaks or perhaps even buffs to encourage mid-range play. I think this will heavily help with the issue of visibility (tracers means that a sniper will only really get off one shot undetected) and counterplay (by simply making the sniper operate in ranges that can be fought with a rocket or flare). It doesn't really do much to stop a sniper from say, quickscoping the medic, but now he's forced to do that at the outer fringes of a teamfight rather than 40 meters away where nothing can touch him. He's still a sniper, he still clicks heads and makes people disappear, but now it's at a range that makes it much easier for his foes to fight him and frankly a more engaging range to play as the sniper player also.

[@jessewilliams3166]

I have 3 good nerfs and 2 buffs to the sniper: 1. Change it from hitscan to a projectile, one a pyro can reflect. Also makes them having to aim even more effectively, make it a fast projectile but a projectile non the less 2. Leave a trail where the sniper shot. Let it linger for a couple of seconds so the enemies know where the sniper is 3. Damage fall off at extreme ranges, keep the long range idea but punish them for camping too far from their team. Combo this with the projectile nerf and it allows for more counterplay as to get the optimal damage puts the other classes less at stake to extend out to punish a sniper 4. To compensate for this, increase the effectiveness of the SMG as a last ditch effort to defend himself, but ensure that it's still weaker then most of the class's close ranged options. 5. Remove the charging mechanic but increase the time needed for the scope to go in. Additionally, give the sniper an option to aim down without a scope, but make the shot only mini crit on headshot .

[@leonardo9259]

good points, except for the 1 and 5, ewww those are bad

[@susragejr477]

Ok don’t go with 1 and 5 those are genuinely awful changes

[@susragejr477]

2: I don’t think we need the universal tracer rounds, since that is the biggest drawback of the machina and that would have to go through drastic changes

[@Atlas.Brooklyn]

What a hilariously awful suggestion. I'm glad we have a community that engages with new ideas but also holy fuck #1 and #5 are piss

[@susragejr477]

3: I do think sniper should still be allowed to defend himself at close range with his primary, since making him effectively useless at close range would make him way less fun. Plus pulling of a close range headshot is not an easy thing to do. But get rid of the bushwaka combo and the random crits that part sucks

[@wolfeegy388]

i agree with zesty alot as a scout to heavy main it dont matter how much you move crouch and jump if that sniper is a pro all he needs is half a second to pop your head off the moment your head is in his sight he'll just flick to it or slide to it and pop your head clean off it isnt fair to be killed by an enemy i had no idea was there sure spy is there but everyone is paranoid just turn around and if you catch someone trying to get behind you thats 80% the time its a spy

[@newpersonaplayer9941]

Get your popcorn boys this is gonna be a doozy

[@Meshric]

It's funny jow whenever a sniper main proposes a nerf to sniper they always propose nerfs that don't address the issue. They will say something inconsequential like adding a clip or something that only really effects non-sniper mains playing sniper like nerfing body shots. But they will screech at the idea of nerfing quick scope.

[@DannyCheezits]

It's like if soldiers rockets did 175 damage and when asked about a nerf soldier mains went "nerf market gardening"

[@Meshric]

@@DannyCheezits Funny enough I'm pretty sure the reason they patched on a unique sound when using the Rocket Jumper is to nerf the Market Gardner (Or melee in general, as back when jumping with the Sticky Jumper it was really easy to sneak up on someone faster than a spy)

[@weaboo8141]

funny that there is actually a certain idiot currently campaigning on not nerfing quick scopes currently running rampant on this comment section.

[@purplehaze2358]

Sniper is most likely the only overpowered class in the game.

[@FrySauce391]

I agree in disliking the razorback, but for a different reason. As a medic main, the whole reason I heal snipers is to give them enough overheal as I'm walking past to survive a quickscope, and the razorback completely removes that ability. How I see it is that snipers gate themselves from that overheal when they use the razorback.