Cole MacGrath: An Internal Struggle Against Destiny | inFAMOUS Analysis

People often say that Cole is a boring character with little personality. I say that he is more of a subtle character with his most important traits being implied rather than shown blatantly at all times.
Music:
Cole MacGrath - inFAMOUS 2
Meet the Reapers - inFAMOUS
Genesis - inFAMOUS
The First Sons - inFAMOUS
The Truth - inFAMOUS
Pleasant Empire - inFAMOUS
The Courier - inFAMOUS
Lucy Kuo - inFAMOUS 2
The Beast - inFAMOUS 2
Plight - inFAMOUS 2
Abduction - inFAMOUS 2
"Half as Long, Twice as Bright" - inFAMOUS 2 (unreleased)
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[@theholysalt18]

Infamous 1 and 2 shows what Cole’s actions can do to a city while second son just shows how Delsin can help people.

[@UncleYakuza]

Boi, it’s ya American brother uwu Memories there needs to be a Online Infamous game where you make your own conduit

[@shadowx2652]

What can cole do for the people of the city?

[@muhammadalifto8076]

@@shadowx2652 i don't know my answer could be right or wrong, but in my opinion, Good Cole can bring hope to the people in the city while Evil Cole can bring fear to the people in the city.

[@shadowx2652]

@@muhammadalifto8076 I know what you mean. But I think evil delsin is worse because besides fear he also does harm to his family and worse kills his own blood. Though honestly and regrettably I've never played second son before.

[@muhammadalifto8076]

@@shadowx2652 hmm, I wonder what Good Delsin can do for people ? Helping those in need maybe ?

[@absolutelynoone2755]

Does anyone notice that in the Evil Ending of Infamous 2, when Cole says “I have become the beast” and transforms, he resembles what the beast originally looked like in Infamous 1 comic cutscenes. (Without the lava effect, and just the glowing eyes) I’m pretty sure that’s somehow symbolic!

[@GoldenDragonMonkey]

It was showing Cole the whole time...

[@Zivalene]

He means how when we see the Beast in inFAMOUS 1, he's just an average sized person with shadowed skin and red eyes; the same as Cole at the end of the scene.

[@xcmcice5687]

Zivalene: What if John was never intended to be the beast in all of the time lines and Cole is actually the beast that is known throughout history..idk if this is possible...but even Kessler’s timeline....think about it🧐

[@Zivalene]

I doubt *all* timelines as any Conduit could be the Beast.

[@xcmcice5687]

Zivalene: true but then that raises the question was John the Beast in Kessler’s timeline and if he wasn’t who was?? I say this because of two reasons..One John’s age and Two how did John get his powers activated if Cole hadn’t blown him up?? EDIT: Well I guess it wasn’t Coles fault that the Ray Sphere exploded.

[@ryanhowe5595]

As unlikely as it is, I hope suckerpunch will go back to their original plan (inFAMOUS 3) to fix everything after the release of ghost of tsushima

[@EpicvidsKetti08]

Ryan Howe they could still do that while keeping second son canonical

[@chiharris2810]

@@EpicvidsKetti08 Yeah they could probably split the series into alternate timelines so everyone could get they're fix. The Evil Timeline and The Good Timeline

[@ryanhowe5595]

@@chiharris2810 that would be smart Edit: on second thought; I think second son should be scrapped out of canon

[@ryanhowe5595]

Learning that being the bad karma ending of inFAMOUS 2 was their plan from the start, I got the feeling that suckerpunch didn't want to make second son

[@lilchez200]

Ryan Howe yeah they looked at which ending was more popular and damn near everyone chose good😑

[@gevvy6]

I just learned something new about my favorite game

[@porterwade8294]

I love that the evil ending was cannon but I think the good won cuz the amount of fans that loved zeke. And that being the only reason.

[@Zivalene]

It's absolutely not the only reason. It is one of the reasons people played the good ending, but there's also the fact that some people didn't want to side with the Beast, they wanted Cole to do the typical heroic sacrifice, they wanted to fight the giant monster, they expect good to be canon, or they were too lazy to play the game twice.

[@porterwade8294]

@@Zivalene exactly they expected the good was cannon. as did I in my youth .but I play it to this day and see it should have been bad. and would have been so cool to play second sun but it be the broken city of Seattle from the actions of cole destroying the city to make conduits.

[@trevinodude]

@@Zivalene I'm actually glad the good ending became canon... again that may have more to do with my own interpretation of Good Cole... but I always saw it as a different way Cole took control of his own fate. Kessler's plan was to isolate Cole so that he had no reason to hold back against the Beast. Kill his emotions so that Cole had nothing to live for and would simply fight the monster type thing. But instead it was BECAUSE of Cole's emotions... BECAUSE of his forgiveness of Zeke... BECAUSE of Trish's pride in him being a hero in her dying moment... and BECAUSE of wanting to be more than a damaged body and mind that Cole was able to beat the Beast and sacrifice his life. Good Cole is my favorite character in the series because he was pushed more towards ruthlessness by Kessler, but Cole only won due to his selflessness and humanity winning out. At least, that's how I see it.

[@cryguy0000]

In my head canon, I see the evil path of 1 and good path of 2 as the canon. It gives cole a great redemption story between the two but after this video it gives the hero path of 1 more to make it stand out as a new source of Cole's anxiety of the upcoming future. The only reason I would reall detest and Infamous 3 is that Cole's story is over regardless of your choice. As a villain he now sets out to make as many conduits as possible, and I don't see how you could really start him over in order to get a new sense of progression like the last two games, and I don't see anything possibly challenging him beyond his transformation into the Beast

[@hatandcaneproductions4877]

While the original ending would have been really bold and interesting I can see why they changed it. That’s kind of the problem with introducing a moral choice system in game and I think I prefer the good ending over the bad. I see it as Cole no longer becoming a victim of fate but instead accepting it and realizing there is something bigger than him. All his suffering was for nothing and in the end he had a family he never had before. Though I can say I totally get why anyone would prefer the evil one to be cannon, the idea of the possible 3 being you as probably one of these converted conduits and the moral choice being to go against Cole for good or take his place is really interesting. Either way, great video.

[@Zivalene]

You're missing context from the comics. Cole's personality in inFAMOUS 2 makes perfect sense.

[@ryanhowe6543]

Zivalene I gotta find a way to get the comic series to help me believing that Cole in both games are the same guy

[@Eevee136]

@Zivaline I know this is late but I keep finding myself coming back to this video, as it is legitimately a fantastic read into my favourite video game series. And, I totally see the foreshadowing and the logic in having the Infamous ending be the planned canon ending, but frankly I'm also glad the Heroic ending ended up being more popular. But that's only because of 1 thing and 1 thing only. In the very last ending SP really screwed up (imo) by forcing the player to change their Karmic status to evil to take the Infamous path. They present the choice as very grey as you point out in the video. "This could be the only way anyone lives through this." Heroic Cole could 100% make the Infamous decision because it really is a bit of a leap of faith to sacrifice his life on the off chance that it indeed cures the plague. But by being forced to be Evil, Cole isn't making the sacrifice of millions for thousands, he instead comes across as a major dickwad who kills a ton of innocents for power during his whole journey through New Marais. This is a pretty long comment so I'll quickly summarize what I think should have happened. SP should have done the same thing in IF2 as they did in the first game. Have any karmic choice be available to either side of the Karmic "Spectrum". Heroic Cole would make the choice that would make him "Infamous" in the eyes of the people and thus would automatically lock his karmic meter at Infamous even though it was for a "good reason".

[@ryanhowe6543]

This honestly made me lose alot of respect for Nate Fox for this, and I'll never forgive him for it, not even ghost of taushima (no matter how good it'll end up being) will make up for second slog

[@ryanhowe6543]

@The Senate Palpatine since that the good karma path of the first game is indeed canon, I can accept the voice actor change as good karma Cole in the second game, but when I play as bad karma Cole in the second game, I'm just...this is so NOT the same guy

[@zandatsudragon8860]

You know before watching this video I really liked cole's character and I thought he was the best main character in the infamous series but this video really helped me know a lot more about cole than I thought I did. You did a fantastic job with this video.

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Also: "I'm Kessler. Or rather, he's me." I kind of like that revelation scene, like saying: *"I'm your father."*

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Zivalene "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, *but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.* *Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.* But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:19‭-‬21 NIV This is how I see now, when you/All say about the Evil Karmic Ending... [Calm Tone]

[@ryanhowe6543]

Am I the only one who 100% does not believe that inFAMOUS 1 Cole and inFAMOUS 2 Cole are the same character?

[@susanacampos7154]

@@ryanhowe6543 why?

[@ryanhowe6543]

I mean especially on the bad karma path, especially since the good path of the first game is canon, on good karma in the second game I can almost kinda buy that's Cole Macgrath, but on the bad karma path, he acts like a completely different character especially with his banter with Nix, for example; "BOOM" when she asks Cole about how He ran things in empire city and he talks about "playing hero" I do not believe for a second that's the same guy from the first game

[@gingergrant1057]

Damn, in retrospect, Cole’s the most human Superhero I’ve seen.

[@Zivalene]

"Sometimes I hear people talking about humans and Conduits like they're totally different. That's bullshit. Because there's nobody with more humanity than Cole MacGrath." - Zeke Dunbar.

[@gunblade8674]

That’s a very bold statement You mean cole is one of the most human superhero’s.

[@Zivalene]

No, he means the most human "superhero".

[@gunblade8674]

Zivalene how Exactly

[@gingergrant1057]

Gun Blade, Because, first and foremost Cole had no interest in becoming a superhero. For the first half of the initial game all he wants to do is get out of Empire City. It was only after the death of Trish that he learned that people depended on him. It was only after he was stripped of his previous life that he began to accept the responsibility of his position. Now imagine yourself in Cole’s shoes: You’re blamed for the deaths of thousands and the start of a plague that has no cure, and will slowly kill everyone infected. Everyone around you hates your guts. Do you really want to play the hero?

[@gumgumdookuin7963]

He wanted free will of the life he was crafted by those who sought in having him do what they thought was best. The evil ending makes sense. No one loves to die, no one wishes to be path forth a destiny they hadn't made or wanted. He wanted to be his own man, but it came at a cost. As the PS3 trophy placed it best. "Forging your own path." He wanted freedom so badly? Well... look where it got him. A reality much dimmer than our own.

[@texasgent4694]

You know i honestly could see how losing Trish, and then Kessler's revelation could push Cole over the edge making him turn evil in Infamous 2, which would've culminated in him ultimately becoming The Beast, obviously that did not happen since the Good Karma ending is canon, but you're right it would've made alot of sense

[@tyleranderson6176]

I wish it was a reality dimmer than our own. But it's not, freedom comes at a higher price than most are willing to pay.

[@ryanhowe6543]

I don’t know, the Cole in the 2nd game feels like a completely different character, especially when you pick the first bad karmic choice where he acts nothing like his canon counterpart in the comic mini series

[@jairesemccoy9779]

@@ryanhowe6543 Ikr. He basically became Kessler, even though he didn't wane to be like him

[@ryanhowe6543]

He does act more like his canon Jason Cottle counterpart enough as good karma to get used to it, but if you choose to blow up the shanty town at the start of the game, his performance turns such a 180, like at the bad karma mission: “boom” nix asks how Cole did things in Empire city and he says something like “playing hero” in almost a mustache twirly tone, I don’t believe for a second that’s the same person

[@loghead1015]

I’m gonna honest here. When I first played infamous 2 I went for the good karmic route because I don’t like playing the bad guy, I like being a good person both in games and in life and I think that most people are inherently good. But by the time the the choice came around, when I learned the truth behind the whole situation of the beast, the plague and the RFI, I wanted to do the evil ending. The fact that it is called the “evil” ending alone makes me mad. The whole game you are give simple black or white choices for how go about playing the game, good or evil. And then you are given the most morally grey dilemma that I myself has ever faced both in games and in life. To make a choice in faith or reality. Save the possible many or save the guaranteed few. I felt obligated to do a second playthrough because i couldn’t just make the choice because the karma sets you in stone unless you work for it some more( which is baffling because you could do exactly that in the first game.) To learn that the developers wanted the “evil” ending to be canonical fills a little hole that I’ve always had with this series. It is the better ending in my opinion and it’s a shame I won’t be able to see the Infamous 3 they had in mind. Doesn’t change the fact that I love this series and that Cole Magrath to me is one of the best video game protagonist of all time. Great video girl, keep fighting the good fight.

[@Zivalene]

Is it black and white if every major villain was always trying to do good by the world in wrong way? Nobody was straight evil except Sasha and Alden.

[@Dark6997]

@@Zivalene obviously very old comment and video but I just want to say I think the argument about black and white is more about the moral choices aspect . I think if they'd either drop the moral aspect or make some choices neutral it'd have been better

[@marcussantos4816]

Man I’m just finished the game and I chose the good ending. Even though Cole would die saving the world of plague and kill the conduits. To me it means he be doing a heroic sacrifice and even though he be gone his friend will and the people he saved will remember him I’m guess I’m just a sucker for heroes and trying to do the right thing

[@tabaributler2225]

@@marcussantos4816 nothing wrong with that dude haha 😄

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

to be honest i chose good ending because that was the one i felt had the redemption arc for cole character. he failed his education, failed his parents expectations, failed his own pursuit of a life, failed saving trish, even his future self was a failure. and the final whisper of "im scared too" fits it so well. he was still willing to be a hero when all he had left was zeke. the dark ending maybe canon to the dev but players wanted to be heroes. cole forgiving zeke also just fits nicely into that redemption. Being the new beast woukdave just made infamous 3 be seen as prototype 2. my headcanon is that the final shot in the good ending showing a thunderbolt was coles body still being alive but stuck in a coma. he used up so much power his body needs time to recharge, since the RFI basically fried his conduit genes. and since conduits are still around after cole theres a chance he can revive

[@TylerM1611]

For cole you get to learn him better and most fan miss him more since cole has most impactful moments kill zeke , trying to save trish , experience his powers with fear then grows to them over time , and having to face a greater threat The Beast / John an old ally While Delsin is just power hungry , gets his powers and acts like everything is fine , reggie dies and even if you're good or bad nothing changes the scene , and Augustine isn't even a huge threat she is basically a joke overall cole is the better hero overall. The only good thing second son did was introduce other types of powers and even mentioned powers that are unbelievable like wire , glass etc. Sucker punch needs to at least try in the next game if they ever do continue

[@ZoanBlade90]

I liked Second Son fine, but...yeah, it's unfair to compare it to Infamous 2. I think that had more going for it, character wise. Delsib's good guy path is alright, but you want to know what villain/maybe antihero that fascinated me? The Kami "Usagi" girl from the sidemissions. She was a girl that died (or came close to it) and was brought back thanks to her new found talents. She is inspired by Delsin, in a "Did I just create Magneto?" kind of way.

[@TylerM1611]

@@ZoanBlade90 Cecilia was cool only downside not a big load of people got to play those missions even if you're good or bad nothing changes her outcome and it did introduce the paper power since there was a mention of it in the audio files side missions

[@ZoanBlade90]

@@TylerM1611 The conclusion of that really came off as "I think I may have created a monster." even though, if her time in Cardun Cay is any indication, she already had some...mental issues.

[@TylerM1611]

@@ZoanBlade90 Yeah due to her being alone and the world wanting to kill conduits plus Augustine even back stabbing her just for being the benefit of getting the governments trust

[@ZoanBlade90]

@@TylerM1611 Something I'm sure Augustone tried to explain to her. Oh wait, that's the sane idea. At least she had some value there.

[@jerriustate9638]

Infamous 2 is the only game in the series that I've played on "Evil," for the exact reason explained in this video. My uncles were watching me play it, and then it got to the scene where John is revealed to be The Beast (they were at the store when it played that cutscene), so when they got back, I told them, "Yo, I just met The Beast face-to-face!" My uncle said, "Why didn't you kill him?" I said, " He just wanted to talk. Like, he wasn't even trying to threaten me or anything. He even said something about us being friends. He's actually a pretty cool guy, I think I'm gonna join him." They were speechless, and the look on their faces was priceless.

[@silvertemplar8061]

Oh the comparison between the Beast and Bertrand. Bertrand as the Monster disguised as a human, literally and figuratively is a great show of how Bertrand lost his humanity in his goal of dividing the world and seeing conduits as monsters, so well articulated by your narration.

[@Mickspad]

This is why the super fans have a damn statue of the dude

[@Zivalene]

*Hides collector's edition statue of Cole from the haters*

[@Mikeh2077]

Cole Macgrath: The true face of Infamous. Good or Evil. The Demon, forever. All that being said, Infamous 3 should have been the game made. Second Son lacked a lot of meaning and gameplay.

[@ZoanBlade90]

@Death Hunter 101 Usagi was a better villain/antihero, and she was a sode mission character.

[@missiontobeaman3111]

Death Hunter 101 I agree dude and the bar was set so high, infamous 2 still goes down of one of my favorite games ever. And with the make/play the crazy custom missions mode it has solid replay value.

[@citizenvulpes4562]

I really liked infamous second son, it was really enjoyable and interesting. It brought up the subject on how normal people saw conduits, something the previous two games (three counting the Halloween spin off) touched upon, but never really brought to the forefront. The gameplay was just as good, if not better, than the other two games. Combat felt more fluid and moving around Seattle felt amazing with the new dashing abilities. I like all of the infamous games, you don't need to put down one just to say you like the other.

[@ZoanBlade90]

@@citizenvulpes4562 And I'll agree with that, but there there were lacking characters. I liked the lead's good guy path alright, but they REALLY dropped the ball with the Digital guy's character.

[@soccerandtrack10]

yes on meaning. from watching it.

[@MasterShwagg3524]

So the evil ending to inFAMOUS 2 would depict Cole as a chaotic good being? At least that's how I'm seeing it. I do hope they revisit that ending for the next inFAMOUS title. And honestly how could they not? Just say that Delsin's story is canon to the good ending and the new title is canon to the evil ending lol. All in all, this was an amazing video. Glad to see people still interested in inFAMOUS.

[@thatoneguy5347]

Ironically, In the Infamous 2 good ending, while Cole does accept Kessler’s wish by killing the Beast, he also kind of defies those wishes too. Kessler never wanted Cole to be a hero, he wanted him to give up his humanity so that he could kill the Beast, but in the good ending, his humanity is what drives him to stopping the Beast, showing that while Cole accepted his “destiny”, he still refused to be the person Kessler wanted him to be. And in proving that his humanity was a strength and not a weakness, he could honor Trish and give one last “F you” to Kessler

[@leeroyh6040]

You're channel is so underrated, the effort you put into this video is outstanding

[@Zivalene]

Thanks!

[@palindinX]

Some people look up to the X-Men, others look up to Batman, A lot look up to Superman and Spiderman. As for me......I look up to Cole Macgrath.

[@REDEEMERWOLF]

That's just sad.

[@theholysalt18]

Cole has to think about how the world view him while Delsin is single minded trying to save his grandma. Cole can change an entire city, become a safe haven while Delsin can convince but needs evidence, you see where I’m going with this

[@shadowx2652]

Wdym needs evidence?

[@ryanhowe6543]

Betty had nothing to worry about compared to the rest of the tribe to the point of when Delsin started with healing betty and taking his sweet-ass time chatting with her while the rest are probably dead at this point PS: That scene tries so hard to convince me that Delsin's a changed man and it's just not working

[@boozeandbullets6997]

I already loved Cole, now thanks to you, he's my favourite character of all time

[@missiontobeaman3111]

Is it just me or was Cole WAY more powerful than Delslin? You legit felt like a badass and superhuman in infamous 2 but second son not so much.

[@josephbriggs2257]

Cole played like a superhero who climbs up walls and can call down bolts of lightning. Delsin was a guy who had powers over smoke, neon and video, all of which aren't exactly impressive. Maybe that's why?

[@missiontobeaman3111]

Joseph Briggs also the controls, you’d zoom in to shoot in the other games which made effectively hitting your enemies way easier. Found myself firing blind or missing in second som a lot. Also all the enemies you fight had rock powers where as Cole had several different gangs, ice super humans and the swamp monsters to face off against to name a few. Delslin could only use one power at once, where as Cole could swap between lightning ice and magma at whim. He also had amazing super moves (the hurricane thing, lightning, super freeze and so on) that would just wreck the city and all surround enemies. He could also roll and take cover which made avoiding gunfire way easier than just running around. He could get electricity from almost everywhere whereas I found it a pain to have to look for powers (video was super rare and hard to find) Lastly he just had more powers, chucking cars, the precision shot, etc) that just let you be more creative, destroy the city and feel like a badass lol. I died a lot as Delslin and the battles didn’t feel nearly as epic cause he only had basic moves.

[@josephbriggs2257]

@@missiontobeaman3111 I see.

[@Fenris30]

Yeah but Delsin could get Coles powers with just a touch. Not as powerful as Cole but he could get them. Delsin true power is as a mimic. We don't know how many he can take or how far he can take them.

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Mission to be A Man I would say Cole is like a Titan-Type, while Delsin is more of being Hunter-Type. Cole, Very powerful with his powers, but still more Human than being 100% superhuman (especially with water). Delsin, much more better than Cole in mobility with his powers, yet still can be a bit 'inexperienced' compared to Cole.

[@texasgent4694]

I really love this character analysis as Cole Macgrath has always been one of my favorite characters and I thoroughly enjoyed his journey through Infamous 1 and 2, although i always find myself feeling sad while playing Infamous 2 since Cole dies in the Good Karma (Canon) ending, i wish they had expounded upon Cole's past a bit more in game though, this essay really helped to fill in alot of those missing pieces and I really would've liked to have seen an Infamous game that featured Kessler as the protagonist, and chronicled the events that took place in his original timeline and the events that transpired after he went back in time and took over as leader of The First Sons

[@DrinkingMud]

Wtf! So much good cole+zeke stuff I missed in the comics because it isn't in the games, I hate that im just finding this now even though I first played these games yeaaaaars ago. The jump between infamous 1 to 2 doesn't tell you anything about how Trish's death and the Kessler revelation affected Cole, what happened to Moya etc, it sucks that this stuff is missing from the games, its pretty important character development they left out and the games would be even better if they included these things. If it weren't for this video, I still wouldn't know about it, ty for this!

[@DVRKSTXR]

Bradders21 I agree. The mysteries surrounding Moya and the government agency that she was involved with always nagged at the back of my mind while playing inFamous 2. The same goes for Alden. We never found out if Cole defeated him before The Beast destroyed Empire City.

[@Dzzy123]

I agree. A remaster of Infamous 1 should include an epilogue that goes over the comic's plot. Also, Sasha's status is still unknown.

[@ChampionAnalysis]

It's refreshing to see someone visit an old gem like inFAMOUS. I hope to tackle the series with a video as well put together as this one was

[@thatoneteengamer4829]

Cole IMO is one of the best video game protagonists ever and is actually iconic not Ubisoft Iconic

[@SovLestlandia]

There is a reason why coles dialogue is monotone, semi-sarcastic and more. It will fit both narratives depending on your karma, and depending on your karma, thats how his dialogue will reflect how you view him as.

[@khalidius1551]

I didn't know it was half an hour until the video was over

[@mysryuza]

I find it interesting that on the way to New Marais, Kuo said that "people do strange things when they are afraid." Foreshadowing to her character perhaps?

[@Zivalene]

Out of the two foreshadowing examples that she gets, it's the more obvious one.

[@astrius4125]

Zivalene Which is the second one?

[@Zivalene]

The ice in Kessler's vision.

[@astrius4125]

Zivalene I don't know... they both sound like unplanned coincidences to me. But it's an interesting point of view.

[@Zivalene]

Rather telling when Kuo mentions that people do strange things when they're afraid and then proceeds to do something out of character when she herself is afraid.

[@niallc.7612]

Ok final comment. Personally, it’s pretty good. You made a nice and quick retelling of Cole’s story and his struggle against the life that had been set up for him since more then 10 years before he was born. Edit: I like how you included both scenarios from both endings and how you analysed Cole making pros and cons, making the bad ending the much more logical choice over the good. Also rip me- I didn’t see the spoiler warning cause I was listening to it rather then watching it, so I had the comics spoiled. Kinda my fault tho cause I wasn’t paying my complete attention.

[@drakeford4860]

This is honestly one of the reasons that I'd like to see these binary morality systems go by the wayside. Though quite difficult emotionally irregardless of the way it shakes out, the ending of Infamous 2 wasn't cut and dry, and numerous moments leading up to it throughout both games were about as grey as they get. There's no reason to signpost humanity- flawed or otherwise- as evil.

[@Zivalene]

Agreed; I like how inFAMOUS 2 is gray-er than most binary morality games. Even when it does have a "Good/Evil" distinction, it's not as simple as "Be a good person or be a dick".

[@Bone8380]

Imagine if the final choice had no bearing at all on what karma you had and didn't effect it afterward. It would be so much more powerful. Instead of a red button and a blue button, both of them were purple, and the game never says which ending is the good or bad one. Overall I agree that a morality system like most games have end up with more negatives than positives, but there is some merit for them to be there. Unfortunately, even InFamous, which has choices more complex than "pet the puppy/stab the puppy", falls victim to the biggest problem the system tends to have.

[@ryanhowe6543]

Which is why it's baffling that the endings were karma locked

[@Eevee136]

I know this is super late but I totally agree. The ending choice is a lot more grey than the rest of the game, so it's weird that the only way you can choose the "safer" choice vs the "risky" choice, is to be a straight up murderer of hundreds of New Marais locals.

[@naos8116]

An easy solution woudl've been to not lock karma for the ending and label them both as grey, only to show you the color at the end (if they had to keep the karma system).

[@voltrainer]

I'm not going to lie, this video made me realize. Cole as a character is sucker punches magnum opus. At least in terms of character writing. No one in SS even remotely comes close. And not even anyone in sly was nearly as complex. People wonder why i love the infamous series so much. And aside from the electric superpowers, this is why XD

[@voltrainer]

@Chandler Burse its not a slight on sly my dude. I love sly. Fantastic story in the first 3 games. I just think sly could be one of the best written characters in fiction period.

[@voltrainer]

@Chandler Burse im not sure what exactly you are trying to argue here. I said they are both great characters but cole as a character was just theor magnum opus. Cause they certainly shit the bed when it came to the continuation of that with second son. And even the sanzaru developed sly 4 couldnt keep up with the solid writing of sly. What are you arguing?

[@voltrainer]

@Chandler Burse see thats where you are wrong. Sly has dead parents. He outright flirts and kisses a cop that chases him he is literally a thief. The game may be cartoony and rated E but in no way means it should limit the way in which he could be written. Sly is fantastically written as were his games (prior to sly 4. Fuck sly 4. You know what you did) i'm just saying cole was SP's magnum opus. That doesnt discredit how well sly was written though. Nor should an E or E10 rating change how a game could be written. I dont expect sly to have sex or swear in his games but otherwise the sly games have a pretty mature story. And all the villians have some mature and well written pasts. For a cartoon game about a raccoo. Thief that is.

[@voltrainer]

@Chandler Burse i never said it was deep. More that the series wasnt aimed at kids. The team wrote what they wanted and it just happened to have an E rating dispite having clearly more adult subject matter.

[@voltrainer]

@Chandler Burse you were the one who brought up deepness. Regardless, not sure what you are arguing anymore. XD or why u decided to argue it

[@MrSandmanTBB]

Very interesting that they gave Cole his hero karma outfit in the comic book style cutscenes following John giving Cole his powers

[@EricGreenFrightened-Crayfish]

I kind of wish the ending choice of Infamous 2 was much more morally Grey, the colors being Grey rather than the red and blue and that the choices wouldn't be locked behind karmic standing. Would make for a more interesting ending, forcing the player to chose whether they awaken all conduits but kill the "normal" people, or chance with the RFI, kill all conduits and maybe cure the plague

[@ryanhowe5595]

I completely agree, I have no idea why the ending were karma locked, and I don't really like it when Kwo said "you made the right choice" in the RFI ending, because it implies to me that she's saying even if the RFI fails at curing the plague and the entire planet dies, it was still the right thing to do, I don't know the game comes across as too black and white

[@cosmiciaria]

I've just recently played Second Son. It was a gift from my uncle and since I already knew what the game was about when it came out I wasn't really into it, but I enjoyed it for what it was. Now I'm trying to platinum it, and while at it, I binge-watched all of your videos regarding the first two Infamous and Second Son. And I gotta say, I regret not having a ps3 so I can play Infamous 1 and 2. I can totally see why Second Son comes across as "shallow" let's say, whereas in Infamous 2 you must save the world - Delsin's motivations, while personal and comprehensible, feel like a tiny world when compared to the plot twists and possibilities that the first two games offer. I just wanted to say that thanks to you, my interest in this franchise has been sparked and now I'm in love with Cole. Keep the good videos coming and hope you have a fantastic day ♥

[@detectivepayne3773]

hey, i just noticed something, in the evil ending, Cole leaves the Amp behind in New Marais, i like to think that he leaves it there because it's a symbol of the guilt of killing zeke and he wants to forget the past

[@DarkLore1992]

I was never aware people thought little of Cole's character... Then again, I don't always look into things 100%. Overall, Its a nice way to at least convince people otherwise that Cole has far more personality and character than they think. I just love how deep you get into these discussions. Its what drives me to keep watching these videos. You could say you're quite InFAMOUS for them now. LOL!

[@raiden6428]

I always had a small part of me that felt the "bad ending" just made a little more sense. It's hard when there's really no right call. But that's how life is. Everybody has to choose

[@UncleYakuza]

I wish they didn’t call it evil and good because if you were really in that situation, it’d be a very hard choice

[@amcheeze6782]

Just realized that if nix went with Cole to the beast Jon would have still died and she would have gotten her wish for him to be dead, without dying

[@CaptainPilipinas]

Its not that simple.

[@Miguelnumbers]

So basically, if Sucker Punch went along with their plan, things would've been like this: Kessler: I'm gonna prevent the destruction of the world by creating the perfect nemesis that will defeat the beast. *Ends up creating the beast* Kessler: ... Wait _what?_

[@GenuinelyphasingZoned]

dr manhattan owns the beast

[@Miguelnumbers]

@@GenuinelyphasingZoned DC has nothing to do with Infamous lol, what's this all about?

[@GenuinelyphasingZoned]

@@Miguelnumbers i mean he’s literally the same and can kill john

[@Zivalene]

DC made the inFAMOUS comics that took place before the first game.

[@Miguelnumbers]

@@Zivalene Ok... Now I feel like the king of imbeciles lol... thanks for the explanation!

[@13seaking]

Awesome video! Im glad to people still discussing this series, i little tidbit i picked from the games was that the scenario in mission were Trish dies is similar to Coles last decision in the second game were he has to chose to save many over the few.

[@erisweettea]

Freaking thank you. I always enjoyed Cole as a character and thought he was deep. Thank you for showing others why.

[@ispywesley2389]

This channel deserves much more love. Great Video.

[@nathanhuerta4445]

I feel like Cole is too good of a person to go with the “evil” ending. If he thought there was a way to save more people he would. He would probably crack faster than John if he became a mass killer. I would also argue not destroying the beast means Cole is still being controlled by Kessler.

[@noahdavis7406]

Still being controlled by Kessler? How?

[@sunsetman22]

@@noahdavis7406 maybe not directly controlled by him, but letting his hatred for one individual influence the fate of all humanity. remember, Kessler ruined a perfectly normal timeline in a mad attempt to undo his mistakes in his own reality, which was impossible. Cole activating the RFI finally puts an end to the destruction and chaos brought about by the Ray Sphere and Kessler's unwarranted influence on the fate of a world that wasn't his to destroy in the first place.

[@nMsFreeStyleZ]

I keep coming back to this video every few months or so, thanks for sharing this

[@sultanrahil3380]

I am grateful to you for posting this video. It was amazing. I lost myself in your video, the exact same way I had lost myself in these games years ago. Keep making such videos. It's a pleasure to watch them.

[@Zivalene]

Thanks for your comment!

[@Riggs_The_Roadie]

I absolutely loved this video. I remember beating the main story for Infamous years ago. After the second one came out and I had heard the evil ending was supposed to be canonical, I remember commenting on the Infamous wiki about how it could have gone. The way I thought it could have worked was with two protagonists, in the style of GTA V. Being able to switch at will between them. They would both have their separate karma system and would belong to different sides. One would be working for Cole, or be one of his followers. While the other would be a member of the conduits who opposed Cole's rule as essentially their God. I remember naming them Bill and Ted as placeholder names. Bill would be the follower, Ted would be the rebellious one. In the end, it'd be a matter of Bill sticking to Cole's rule and destroying the dissenting conduits, or switching sides and attempting to take Cole down. Ted would be similar, focusing on freeing the world from Cole and leaving them to make their own choices or he would give up on the notion and remove Cole to take over his position. I used to think a bunch about how the endings could have panned out. Since in this story I thought up, Bill and Ted would be working together or against each other. (For those of you who don't like the name, it's a reference. To an Excellent Adventure) If Bill stayed evil, he'd fight Ted of he was good. If Bill stayed evil, while Ted abandoned his mission, they'd both take down Cole, or at least try. If Bill turned good, but Ted decided to switch sides, he'd kill Bill and attempt to fight Cole, only to be effortlessly defeated. (That Kill Bill reference was unintentional. I just realized I wrote it.) If Bill turned good and Ted decided to free the people no matter the cost, they'd team up against Cole. Maybe they would have died, but inspired the rest of the conduits to just pile on Cole. In any of these scenarios, you would have control over who you played, giving two versions of each of these endings, excluding the team ups, except for maybe the evil team up. As they defeat Cole, you'd get to pick your protagonist once again, and kill the other. Man, I remember people getting annoyed with my choice of names in this imaginary game I came up with. Anyways, great video, I absolutely loved it and you just earned yourself a subscriber. P.S. I never found Delsins' evil decisions believable. He just turns into a dick for no reason. In the first Infamous, it was self-preservation or defending the weak. In the second, stop The Beast, but at what cost? To whoever reads through this, I appreciate you taking time out of your life to indulge in my silly dream game. Have a wonderful day.

[@Zivalene]

Since you're new and you've taken time to imagine an inFAMOUS 3, maybe you'd be interested in mine. I call it 'Legacy of the Beast' and you can read it on Fanfiction.net or Wattpad. Currently there are 11 chapters, but there will be many many more to come when it is finished. It is Cole's adventure as the Beast saving Conduits. You might like it. Okay, shameless plug over.

[@themostdeadmeme1609]

YES MORE VIDEOS ABOUT INFAMOUS! Thanks Zivalene, love your content, you deserve a hell of a lot more subs.

[@themostdeadmeme1609]

Holy fuck, I got a heart, my life is complete now.

[@AmateurAnimations65]

Holy hell, I never noticed before that Cole lecturing Zeke was identical to Kessler's lectures. That is so cool

[@wildtiger397]

God this makes so much sense, they should've stick with the evil ending. Great work.

[@papas7748]

The amount of effort put into this video deserves millions of views. I’ve played InFAMOUS 1 and 2 dozens of times, yet I never saw it in this light. It makes me realize how damn good of a story the two games show. This reinforces even more that I love the series. Thank you.

[@Gajeel145]

Dam this video was beautiful and now I really want another infamous going from the evil ending

[@SpiderShot07]

What an amazing video, seriously. Just amazing job on the whole thing, was expecting to watch maybe a minute at most but ended up watching the whole thing

[@Zivalene]

Thank you!

[@Giose]

I'm kind of shocked to see how deep Cole's character is. I only got to play InFamous 2 when i was like 12 years old, so i missed a lot of context for his character. The moral dilema was so simple for me when i was 12: Just use the RFI. Sure, it will kill conduits, be there's still a chance it saves people. Besides, the beast is i causing too much destruction and suffering, it needs to be stopped, we know what happens if we don't But know...that is not so simple: Was this all a lie? Is there really no better option? Maybe the beast is right after all, a great sacrifice is worth it for people to survive... Regardless of this, I wouldn't change my path, I believe the RFI is the right choice, even if i cannot fully justify it. It's a shame we couldn't play more as Cole, but Delsin is not so bad either. He's not amazing or anything, but good enough. This was an amazing analysis, thank you for making it!

[@Giose]

now*

[@sunsetman22]

personally, I don't think Cole killing the vast majority of humanity in favour of a few precious conduits is the right move. if he activates the RFI, he wouldn't be doing it because Kessler groomed him to become a reluctant saviour by hardening him, aka making him let go of any attachments he may have so he fulfills his destiny. he would do it out of his own free will, because it's the correct thing to do, because he's seen the destruction the ray sphere, Kessler's machinations and The Beast's forced evolution of humanity have brought upon the world (it's not just blind faith). Kessler had to go back in time because he didn't have the guts to do what was neccessary, and ruin his alternate self's life (and reality) to do what he couldn't. not Cole. he chose to sacrifice himself for the greater good, to allow humanity, as flawed as it is, to thrive and survive.

[@JabamiLain]

I disagree. The Conduit gene is part of the human species and a key component in its evolutionary potential, therefore it must be explored. The threats to its extinction eliminated.

[@JabamiLain]

@@sunsetman22 our species is too flawed. The Conduit gene might bring more problems, but it can also bring more advantages to our species. Allow the evolutionary chain to do its job.

[@SuperBlaze117]

Learning that the evil ending is canon and was planned from the beginning really gains traction when you look at the title of the game. INFAMOUS! I always thought it was odd that the game was called that but had a gravitation towards paragon

[@Merlaut715]

I mean, it's sorta catchy though. The name could've been something generic.

[@usernameu6452]

Great video!!! Can't get enough of your infamous essays

[@thetokenwon506]

I’m never gonna stop being pissed off about them choosing to go with the good ending in 2.

[@camil2003]

Me and you both.

[@DarkLore1992]

Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale having Evil Cole become the beast as his Level 3 super certainly made it harder to forget/ignore. THE BEAST HAS ARRIVED!!! I love it when he says that!

[@PredatorH2O]

WHY THE HELL NOT? Isn't a good ending always the best? Don't bother. It is.

[@camil2003]

@@PredatorH2O not this time.

[@PredatorH2O]

@@camil2003 Well I disagree. I don't know if you all realise that the evil ending is basicaly Cole saving his ass. A couple of points that make his choice "logical" won't change that.

[@thekillingerescapeplan4286]

Well done! Really brings out the Complexity of Cole

[@faisalx3071]

Hands down to the best superhero video game character of all time , infamous 1&2 made a change on my perspective against superhero vision , he was false hero but yet trying save people who was afraid of him , it's just the story is too deep to understand that why it took me a lot of years to fit in my mind i don't what anyone say about the games but u made one dame video.

[@Nkanyiso_K]

*This is so good* thanks for sharing this - I never read the comic so I had this gap in the story. I can't wait to read your story

[@Nkanyiso_K]

Sitting on that room with Zeke was... Is my favourite video game scene ever

[@birbman5186]

I remember playing this for most of my childhood onto my early teens. He was basically my role model because of his confidence in his skills, as well as his ability to find the right people to help him on his path. But I realise now, after playing the game again, that Cole's greatest power is his ability to think clearly and overcome his inner demons. Then again his actual greatest power is Sticky Rocket-

[@magicalgirl4]

You put it so perfectly!

[@birbman5186]

@@magicalgirl4 hehe

[@Action-Hero]

My head canon for the Evil ending and what necessarily makes it “evil” is that Evil Cole only wanted to help John cuz it was the only choice he had where he would live. Like Evil Cole didn’t care about saving what would be left of humanity but rather he did it just to save his own ass.

[@Link10103]

They could go an interesting route and make it so that in death cole gained Kesslers ability to time travel with the lightning bolt at the end of the good ending in infamous 2. Make it so that everything gets rewound back to Cole's ultimate choice to save conduits or destroy humanity with vague memories from his previous choice and rejecting that outcome. Boom, Second son gets to stay canon for the good ending not that i give a shit, and we get the bad ending canon we deserved...

[@hooch8300]

Second son isn't a terrible game. However, Infamous and Infamous 2 have more character development, which is needed in a game. Cole shall love forever

[@ryanhowe5595]

As a game on its own, it's average at best, but as a continuation of the first two games, it's pretty bad

[@sunsetman22]

the more I think about it, the more Second Son begins to appear more and more like the equivalent of the Star Wars sequel trilogy but for the inFamous universe. lots and lots of wasted potential

[@randwindhusk]

Wow, I never thought of the the ending that way. The way you described it. I almost teared up at the part of Cole looking down on Zeke and Nix again. Man Infamous 2 is STILL my favorite game ever.

[@buffluigi1646]

Infamous 2 was the first game I finished I was like 7 and infamous holds a special place in my heart cole will always be better than any game in the series characters

[@ChiefEngineBoy]

I know I'm late but, this is one of the best KZbin videos I've ever seen! Thank you so much for making this. You've made me fall in love with Cole's character even more. Wherever you are in your journey of life I hope you're happy and well. One love sistah ☝

[@spideyfan95]

These in-depth videos into the characters of inFAMOUS are why it is my favorite video game franchise. I originally played the evil ending first when I got the game so I could try all the powers. And now I wish it would come back because of its subliminal messages in its story telling. Thank you for the effort you put into the videos.

[@ryanhowe6543]

I just hope we get inFAMOUS 3 as a send off game to the series after Ghost of Tsushima which I have high hopes for

[@foxdie10000]

Sorry for being so late to the party but that was possibly the greatest breakdown I’ve ever watched 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@Zivalene]

Thank you!

[@GavoFring]

Oh my god, this video is so perfect!

[@nahuelortega7892]

It seems impossible to believe that this ending was going to be the true outcome, but after reflecting on it (and taking into account the name of the title) I feel that it makes sense... great video!!!

[@RayanTheModder]

I like cole more. I even cried at the Bad/Evil ending of 2

[@eddiebaledy]

So far you interpretation is actually really good. I am really enjoying the videos you do on inFAMOUS.

[@DVRKSTXR]

Such an incredible franchise. inFamous and inFamous 2 are easily two of my favorite superhero games of all time. I wish that Second Son held up, and I wish that the original Evil Ending that Nate Fox and the rest of Sucker Punch had planned ended up becoming of what Second Son is. However, for continuity’s sake, it was probably all for the best. I still think that it would have been amazing if Second Son pertained to Cole overlording the power of The Beast on the remnants of humanity, and Delsin adopting the mantle of responsibility in defeating The Beast. Once and for all. Would it have been a little redundant from a storytelling perspective? Sure, but it totally gives me massive Star Wars vibes. Cole donning the role of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader *(fallen hero, lost and angry villain)* reaping false balance and justice on humanity, and Delsin basically being Luke Skywalker *(righteous and brave)* trying to restore true peace to what’s left of the world.

[@nMsFreeStyleZ]

Thank you for giving me a new found appreciation for Cole's story

[@eldritch1124]

Underrated video

[@supremebacon913]

This video made me question life because cole is a broken individual who always has to make most choices no normal person would be able to make because Cole is human.

[@dalenlewin]

So you mean to tell me that these writers had a fully fledged story before the first game even came out, but due to some arbitrary statistics, they decided to completely axe the true ending to the story and make second son instead? Humanity is truly an evil species.

[@jakethesnake4040]

Glad I watched this, really helped me learn a lot more about one of my favorite game series and character. Honestly I can’t believe the evil ending was supposed to be the canon one, the good ending always seemed the logical one. Sacrificing yourself to save humanity, the greater good, but when u talked about coles character, I realized that based on who his character is, and how his struggles have shaped him that the evil ending makes sense as a canon conclusion

[@Zivalene]

Happy to be of service. :)

[@domingomal3270]

Can we talk about how you are pretty much one of the only KZbinrs that still talks about Infamous 💜

[@Zivalene]

It might not be relevant to anyone else but it still is to me.

[@superlombax1561]

The Neon Camper 😢

[@silfex3622]

Thank you so much for making this video! I would’ve never had known so much about Cole if you didn’t make this video!

[@snakeeyes8777]

It's about time someone made this video, i love you zivalene

[@Zivalene]

Thanks, love you back!

[@someviking8620]

Cole is way better that Delsin, I love both characters but cole has so much more “layers” of personality good and evil, much like Shrek. Shrek confirmed in InFamous 3

[@shadowx2652]

@@someviking8620 how?

[@shellyrpender]

I’m so glad there is a channel who still loves Infamous!

[@Boss-cj6zn]

They NEED to make a 3rd one with the evil ending as cannon, b/c if they don’t, I will

[@Zivalene]

I gotcha covered.

[@sebas8225]

makes sense for the evil ending to be canon it opens up more new possibilities for future games.

[@ryanhowe5595]

That's why I never really liked the RFI ending, my reaction (or at least at the time) was "the series ends/dies in the second game??😑 I really hated that video of Nate Fox talking about "honoring the player's choice" YOU HAD A PLAN YOU IDIOT!! And you scrapped it because most people played as good cole first! Did we even know we were voting? FUCK NO! I don't know what he was thinking. Is he scared of pissing people off? Is he scared if he stuck to his plan people would be pissed? And the game we got wasn't even very good

[@tylerclarke5591]

@@ryanhowe5595 for real. They should do an ad campaign before the next game (if it comes out) with a massive straw poll. See if the general populace would enjoy ending good or bad to be canon

[@sunsetman22]

the RFI ending could've led to an awesome sequel that wasn't Second Son. it's just that they changed their plan at the last minute and the end result wasn't as well thought out as the story they already had.

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

One thing I love about IF2 is its twist on the messiah archetype; after all, one group's savior is another's destroyer.

[@billybanks8588]

I love the infamous series, infamous 2 is one of my favourite ever games, thanks for a great video

[@PeiceLivinUp]

A bag of bread presents many opportunities

[@tlgkevin4431]

i love this series so much thank you for this video!!

[@Raccoozs]

This video was AMAZING!!!

[@walrider2133]

Every now and again I revisit this video, great stuff. Happy to see others as enthusiastic as myself about this franchise.

[@langos7946]

Half as long. Twice as bright.

[@joshiealt3604]

I gotta try

[@namelastname7330]

I know...

[@remageek]

I like your analysis about the ending scene from InFAMOUS one and 2, I just remembered a Poem/FanFic thing I read on FanFiction when I saw the beasts face behind Cole, like, "He could either be the hero that the world needs or he could be the next beast, a monster who decides who lives or who dies."

[@MrLim-wq2gn]

you either die a Hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the Villain.

[@nahueeiglesias6088]

I hope someday we get inFAMOUS 3, based of Cole's evil ending. It just makes sense Kessler obliterated Cole's perspective about good and evil. And therefore all evil choices make sense: *1.* Why would Cole burn down the village at the start of the game? Because the Beast had just drained his powers and he didn't know if he was able to defeat the Militia *2.* Why would Cole free cops who are said to be lazy and have been coerced into submission when he can create a fire to make a distraction? He wouldn't, because after Wolfe's death, Kuo is the only one who can lead him to the Blast Cores and he can't risk that by trying to save some cops *3.* Why would Cole "save" the Resistance from Militia Nix when he can give meds to them? Because the Resistance can turn against Cole any time they want *4.* Why would Cole swap powers with Nix instead of Kuo? Because Nix's powers are way more effective (aka destructive) *5.* Why would Cole raise an army of monsters with Nix instead of exposing Bertrand to the people? Because "the people" can't help that much to take down Bertrand Now then, last one: why would Cole put all of his faith into the RFI curing the Plague while also killing all conduits, who are the ones he 100% knows John can save? Well, he wouldn't. He wouldn't risk it. He's been taught to make sacrifices for the greater good, no matter the cost, therefore making the choice to join John and saving all conduits before it's too late It's not about good and evil paths. It's about a path based on faith, and a path based on proof, and Cole has been molded into following proof through all of inFAMOUS 1 Thank you for coming to my TED talk, now get me inFAMOUS 3

[@JabamiLain]

While I don't agree with you regarding the choices 1, 3 and 5, even though I understand your perspective on them, you're correct, this is choosing between proof and faith. And while I know the importance of faith, I also know people have the terrible habit of letting it control you. I refuse to allow faith control me. I am my own man. And if the price for it is to sacrifice a significant number of humans to ensure the survival of Conduits, so be it. Destiny simply can't control you without thinking you'll one day obtain the power to fight it, and therefore, it needs to compromise to us just as much as we have to compromise with it.

[@khanlusa]

Great video, I do feel some self-conciousness in liking Cole as much as I do, because yeah, at first glance and certainly visually he is a dry brick, but everything you went over here reinforces why he's more than meets the eye, and I appreciate it immensely. Thanks for sharing!

[@Danonino-yb5dh]

Excellent video, as always

[@Zivalene]

Thank you!

[@i-vthegr896]

Phenomenal video! A truly excellent analytical piece on the complexity of the narrative of the first two inFamous games and why Cole is a far superior protagonist than Delsin.

[@aydenberry3021]

I would think it being really cool if they made infamous 3 with evil Cole as canon. Would make it really enjoyable to play

[@daycre9960]

Dang... Amazing video! I would’ve loved to see an InFamous 3, it would be crazy to see what it would’ve looked like.

[@superlombax1561]

You are really good at analyzing stuff.

[@lamarsemi7061]

Amazing video I enjoyed every bit of it. I look at the whole lore a lot differently know.