Zoning is Cool, and Offense After a Knockdown Isn't What Defines "Rushdown"

[@brunop.8745]

to quote an excellent comment from Leon's video, "Leon Massey is surprised that everyone plays rushdown in the game that actively steals your meter if you press back for too long"

[@Junkyardproduxtions]

Funny thing is he's aware of that. I think the video was a little half-baked is all. He's usually got decent insight at times.

[@zegreenemachine8160]

@@KittensAreDope He pointed out in one of his videos about how he was inspired by Egoraptor’s Sequelitis series, and in vids like this it shows. He acts more cartoonish as the vid goes on, and at times it kinda like he knows what something is or that something bothers him. Instead of explaining it, he acts more like a character. This conveniently makes it harder for me to determine where the jokes start and end, and whether Leon is being serious or a goofball.

[@no_nameyouknow]

​@comet6184it still doesn't mean that every character is a rushdown character. If the game is more aggressive than you have to turn that slider towards aggression so yes everybody's going to play more aggressive but the rushdown characters are going to play even more aggressive than the zoners or the grapplers or the brawlers.

[@thestanman1486]

Playing against a Peacock with rush punch assist is literally like doing a mini Cuphead boss

[@Magibatproductions]

It's a good day for a swell battle!

[@pewpewfgc]

@@Magibatproductions HEREEEEEE GOES!

[@santa5628]

That's mean to cuphead bosses.

[@pachicore]

Honestly Big Band's dp assist is way worse since you're still in trouble when you can actually get in

[@GregInTechnicolor]

lol "mini" boss

[@sheipi9978]

I can't believe leon made a 13 minute video on jury's v-skill

[@Y20XTongvaLand]

Link, please.

[@Y20XTongvaLand]

@ashy No.

[@willo_wisp3798]

I love leon massey, but the sentence "I dont know what we gained from that time, but we spent that time," Is very accurate.

[@edwardgregorio9754]

For real, but I think that it only applies to his newests videos

[@hamishmacdonald8593]

@@edwardgregorio9754 not at all, a lot of his old videos are pretty half baked, but he is still pretty new to this whole thing really, and just got a burst of popularity from the tension video (which is great). i think in any video where he is not discussing mechanics and their implications à la a fighting games matthewmattosis he struggles to really do much at all really.

[@willo_wisp3798]

@@8Kazuja8 he has a lot of really good ideas but tends to go on tangents and not fufil the rest of the premise, and just ending on the tangent. He's funny tho and is getting there, I believe

[@ThisJustOne]

Dude is super entertaining tho. All that really matters

[@siddhantdeepful]

He is not exactly the most mechanically knowledgeable person but he does try to break down situations as best as he can from his perspective. He is god damn entertaining without a question.

[@deathVIAavatar]

Skullgirls has been a bullet hell shooter in disguise since launch.

[@GenericSoda]

Sure other fighters are Ikaruga and Touhou, but Skullgirls is definitely Silver Surfer

[@iker-jk2096]

It's only appropriate that that Peacock was using the Cirno color

[@TableandChairs967]

Shiit. Ever see Cerebellum? Grappler with movement, good normals, super armor, and every other tool needed to excel? Skullgirls in general turns every Archetype up to 11, giving every character what they need to face roll. It's chaotic, infuriating, and glorious.

[@darienb1127]

Hell, one of Double's supers is even a reference to Gradius.

[@harrylane4]

@@TableandChairs967 makes sense that it’s “everything up to 11,” it’s MvC inspired

[@freshbroceries4601]

Keep in mind, Sage was running the worst possible solo character to deal with this team.

[@rainofkhandaq6678]

Facts

[@hipsterroxas2626]

He also won

[@intergalacticdegengypsy6135]

Yeah but it was a good clip to enforce his point, he wasn't knocking sage, but to show it happen at sages level, really drives his point home

[@piwithatsme]

"I'm on a boat" me as eliza when i play peacock

[@rainofkhandaq6678]

@@piwithatsme More facts

[@MrPomegranX]

Saying pressure makes you rush down is like saying having a grab makes you a grappler.

[@shiftyshitter348]

Which a lot of people say Sol or May are grapplers because they have command grabs

[@MrPomegranX]

@@shiftyshitter348 I know it’s dumb

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@shiftyshitter348 Sol is 100% a grappler though lol. His entire offense is based around you being scared of wild throw, just because he’s not big and slow doesn’t make him not a grappler

[@Stormclaw3]

@@NeoBoneGirl I mean it's pretty fair to be afraid of the big badman with a throw that chunks your health.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@Stormclaw3 Yeah, which is why he’s a grappler. The high damage command grab is the entire core of Sol’s mixup and pressure. Wild Throw doing a fuck ton in every version is the only reason he gets his super high damage frame traps. You can’t convince me that there’s any other reason besides Sol being the MC that people call him a shoto

[@desupocalypse]

Bullet hell with the Cirno colors? You can't be mad at that, he's in character.

[@iker-jk2096]

Nah, he should kept a very specific safe space right in his face

[@ten0fclubs70]

And Megaman RoboFortune

[@iker-jk2096]

@Uchechi Godwin-Offor actually, there's a megaman inspired touhou fan-game, it's called MegaMari, it's actually done by the team that does the official fighting game spin-offs

[@TrueUnderDawgGaming]

Ky is not rushdown and zoners do not need crazy projectiles. Dhalsim is the premiere zoner and he has a slow projectile that does not travel fullscreen

[@bowserfriend]

Ky is a calm monke Sol is one that broke a zoo (the entire zoo), mistaken for a gorilla

[@KHA0T1X]

maybe because they're NOT Rushdown, their archetype is Shoto. He said it himself lol, I think Leon just meant the goal of like every character in GG is to get in and do oki. Negative penalty even enforces that idea. Also love how you're coming in here TUDG like you know best 💀🤣

[@Adaruan]

@@KHA0T1X he's just saying dumb shit on purpose trying to siphon attention off of actually good content creators like he always does

[@KrankkxGaming]

@@Adaruan I thought he was just agreeing with Leon because Leon definitely explained that at the end of the video. Is this not an acceptable way to agree with someone?

[@Adaruan]

@@KrankkxGaming That's a VERY charitable interpretation for a guy who is known to never use his brain and live off of dumbass clickbaits/low effort misinformation videos.

[@hiroprotagonest]

"I understand getting shot to death sucks, it happens to me all the time." Great video, Sean Bean.

[@Derpin8r]

The way sage says "I need assistants" has had me chuckling for a week now

[@GanguroKonata]

Just dripping with "what have I done to myself" energy

[@leggendario93]

sage is so funny

[@nikhilbhavani981]

Zoning is a garbage fighting style unless I'm doing it. Then it's cool.

[@stan5794]

Same

[@thecountercounter9127]

Facts

[@L0V3V4MP1R3]

Truer words have never been said before

[@MayHugger]

I hate rushdowns, cause they just smash their face into their controller and still easily get in. Unless I'm using them, then they're highly strategical and requires process movements and decision making in order to close in.

[@aquaex6]

Based

[@eduardoserpa1682]

Leon equating okizeme to rushdown was a huge mistake. So much that it obscured his legitimate point that traditional archetypes very often don't work the way you'd expect in Guilty Gear. As he said near the end, it's fitting circles into square holes. Novriltataki's video complements his point by not using traditional archetypes at all. Instead, he just grouped them by the areas of the screen they're capable of covering while pointing out the little things that make them unique. It's obviously still not unique to Guilty Gear, but I haven't felt that kind of variety within each character in any other game, except maybe BlazBlue. Each character in GG+R can still do more than if you spliced together 3 Street Fighter/DBFZ characters. It's just the kind of game GG is.

[@CrowsofAcheron]

Novril's video was much better. I hope he gets the attention he deserves.

[@rachetmarvel931]

@@CrowsofAcheron Yeah, Novril has done so much for the Guilty Gear community.

[@Gration_]

This was my exact fucking problem with Leon's video. Just because you go on the offensive after you get the advantage, doesn't make someone a rushdown character. Effectively trying to skip the entire neutral game to smack someone upside the head in .02 seconds, is what makes you a rushdown character.

[@spooky6703]

I'm not here for deep strategy and a careful ballet of testing your defences, I'm here to scream and hit people a whole bunch.

[@ananmaysahu4563]

@@spooky6703 unfortunately if you're a sol main to hit people a whole bunch you have to have deep strategy and a carful ballet of testing defense because none of your skip neutral buttons actually skip neutral unless you're punishing something specific that the opponent did, you just get bonked. thankfully once you do get past neutral the opponent just kind of dies without being able to do anything

[@evilken00]

I like the hit the opponent archetype.

[@Tarrabah]

what about the ex when she press archetype

[@MilhSpears]

I'm more of a "deal damage" archetype myself

[@Derpin8r]

Every character has oki, but not every character wants to get to that point the same way. If anything, the archetype that GG has across the majority of it's roster is setplay, not rushdown. Everyone "turns into" a setplay character eventually, but not everyone rushes down to get to that advantageous position.

[@lemonrancher1037]

Sin is not setplay

[@LaowPing]

@@lemonrancher1037 beak driver > projectile super into unreactable 50/50s is setplay fam

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@lemonrancher1037 Sin is the least setplay, but you aren’t eating after every KD (unless it’s vs Potemkin). Running oki lets you get decent mixups and damage for few calories, and is way more consistent than being right in neutral a lot

[@kataarifox]

I really love Leon's videos, but this one in particular felt like most of the points that were made were a total stretch to try to prove his theory that every character is a rushdown. It seems very shallow to claim that having oki or pressure is inherent to rushdown, it's like claiming every character is a grappler because they have a grab.

[@t4d0W]

In the last part of your statement, the funny part is what makes KOF what it is (universal movement through different jumps/hops, fast run movement) is what makes playing grapplers in that game such a rush. They aren't limited to hard commitments like in slower games where they have to rely on the design of their whole kit to try fight the whole cast. 98 Daimon is a monster grappler because not only does his cmd grabs hurt but he also has ways to establish spacing with his amazing normals that can be used as AAs. Then you have guys like Iori whose kit is so well rounded, he also happens to have a cmd grab just to extend combos in situations.

[@Hoarseplay]

Wait, Sol isn't a grappler?

[@kataarifox]

@@Hoarseplay to clarify, I meant the normal grab everyone has :v

[@abbymems]

I think the message that he doesn't quite get to is that GG is just a game that revolves around heavy pressure. The game wants you to be in the face of the opponent, so every character has a way to do that. They just all do it in different ways, which is what archetypes are. Characters that have different ways to get to that win condition. I wish the Sol and Ky section went more in depth about how they get their pressure rather than just being "these are the shotos and one is Pepsi classic and the other is Pepsi MAX".

[@ananmaysahu4563]

ky just kind of plays solid until you die while sol tries to skip neutral and once he's successful he waits for you to make a mistake and then your healtbar disappears

[@ramuneguy2173]

“Hm today I will raw super” Beowulf

[@kevingriffith6011]

I do think the general "zoner/grappler/rushdown" trifecta is too simplistic to really encapsulate modern fighting games: There are *hundreds* of fighting game characters at this point, so there's this constant push to build new and exciting gimmicks and archetypes for characters. It's useful as a sort of at-a-glance metric for a fighting game character, but usually a character is a lot more complex than their archetype. You'd need like... 3 different charts for each character to get anything close to an accurate image of what a character really does.

[@TenjinZekken]

A triangle chart is enough. You have the three big archetypes on the corners and have characters fall within that triangle. This works better in fighting games since interactions are limited. In addition everyone's ganeplan at the highest level is the same, kill opponent by depleting life. Compare this to archetypes in card games where you have multiple win cons that don't involve interacting directly with your opponent, as well as multiple ways to interact with each object in the game. Some archetypes ignore board completely and go for pure solitaire strats. Others play strong minions to eventually out value. Card game archetypes are unique because they don't all interact with the same elements of the same game, whereas fighting game characters do.

[@AzazelTheMisanthrope]

Dood every time somebody makes a video talking about rushdown characters in Xrd they always pick somebody to talk about other than Jam or Millia. I'm always confused about this, they are literally the MOST rushdown of characters I have ever seen in fighting games.

[@DJmouchi777]

I'm with you on Jam, but I'd say Millia is the setplay queen. While still good at rushdown, her gameplan is mostly "knock them down, make them block multiple wack ass mixups." Granted, most of Guilty Gear's cast wants to do that, but she's the most focused on that outside of maybe Zato.

[@ew275x]

Pretty much, I play unga bunga boxer guy in fighting games and I gravitated towards Jam in GG.

[@mastemathedank4043]

@@lucasgamernelson989 does he mean like Steve and TJ Combo? Cuz I'm lost here

[@shadowviruz]

I don't think ive ever seen a Skullgirls match that didn't include Beowulf or Big Band.

[@Ospreynaitor652]

*sweats in beo/band/squig* I saw a thing from a tournament and big band was the most popular character. Think with band it's a combination of a cool design and the fact he kinda can go with any team and work

[@pitabread9820]

People like Beowulf and Band is an assist god and a damage monster, he has DP assist, anti air assist with 2 hits of armor that setups into a combo, and a dash punch that goes half screen with two hits of armor

[@Ospreynaitor652]

@@pitabread9820 yeah band works as a really nice anchor on my team right now and a train with beo is very nice. Tho I need to start DPing more, it's not something I remember to do often

[@cloude8496]

@@pitabread9820 you say it as if that was the reason to play Band We all know in reality it's the trumpet

[@Fizz-Q]

I just play every character with anything named beowulf Lmao

[@-z6796]

It's so funny with Peacock because you think you can just get in and then she has no options but no, you get in and hope to god YOU guess right to not get knocked away fullscreen, or get staggered and eat a full combo, then she pressures you with item drop cross ups/unders, and hits like she's shooting you with a shotgun, chansawing, dropping a whole ass anvil on you... wait

[@california_wang8078]

What do you mean? Just block the bangs lol, its hella minus on block

[@-z6796]

@@california_wang8078 it's not that simple, the fact that she has a great reversal like that, along with how hard it is to get in in the first place, and how much damage she does (did) is the point I was trying to make

[@PipeRetrogamer]

Archetypes exist in fighting games so we can all hate each other :)

[@saveriocarro9399]

Archetypes are just racism for fighting game players

[@thealster370]

​@@saveriocarro9399 Ok but grapplers amirite

[@saveriocarro9399]

@@thealster370 Not racist, just don't like 'em tho, keep 'em away from kids

[@Skapes11238]

In melee the "every character is rushdown" argument has been used before but that misconception has been snuffed out. Once you know how to use most tools and are playing someone who has the same of level play, you realize not everyone is rushdown.

[@broom2839]

I don't understand how people can say all Melee is rushdown when Falco, Marth, and Samus exist. Like 90% of neutral with Samus and Falco is them spamming you to death with projectiles to force you to approach and Marth is basically all footsies. Even Ice Climbers are more akin to footsies/grappler.

[@technicolormischief-maker5683]

Fox’s lasers are also one of if not the best zoning tool in the game, so there’s that as well!

[@happycamperds9917]

Archetypes in my opinion are all about risk-reward. Sure Guile can walk up grab but it isn’t his best option in terms of risk reward. Anji can zone with butterfly but that doesn’t mean he should.

[@tylercafe1260]

A zoner just walking up and grabbing? C'mon you can do better than that

[@giantdinoboy8264]

​@@tylercafe1260 Axl run out of the corner 5D.

[@littlefuniman6881]

doesnt rushdown have like nothing to do with your oki and is just the ability to get in on someone or to be in a position of pressure?

[@tylercafe1260]

Thank you

[@Fizz-Q]

well it's in the name they excel at rushing down the opponebt

[@littlefuniman6881]

@@Fizz-Q yeah but "rushing down" is kinda vague term. does it just mean you have to run fast?

[@n0v3mb3r7]

no, oki is an insanly huge part of rushdown characters.

[@littlefuniman6881]

@@n0v3mb3r7 so is any other character where they're goal is to be close to the opponent. Rushdown characters typically have decent oki but it doesnt define them. If there is some fast ass character like jubei from blazblue but their oki sucks i think they would still be considered a rushdown character.

[@Lewt_2B]

Why do so many people think that anything involving close combat is "rushdown"?

[@saveriocarro9399]

People tend to think in binary extremes I guess

[@2dollarchickenwings689]

Because the goal of rushdown is to close the gap and bully the opponent? You can play up close and not play rushdown but if your main goal is to win neutral and stick to the opponent all game, you're a rushdown

[@Storse]

​@@2dollarchickenwings689by that logic Potemkin is rushdown

[@brikaro1]

I was waiting for him to say "if you move towards your opponent offensively you're a rushdown."

[@santa5628]

I usually like leon but... Isn’t literally every fighting game character going to be played differently depending on your opponent? Up next: the floor is indeed made of floor

[@t4d0W]

There are some variables, namely if your opponent 'understands' the matchup and behaves and adapts like so in game. If your opponent cannot punish the situations where their character has advantage and you keep winning out in these 'losing' situations, keep doing you.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

Yeah, this was my big issue too. It feels like he loves Guilty Gear so much that he wants to make everything about it seem unique and special. Almost all of the points in Leon's vid are applicable to other series.

[@suddenllybah]

@@VinceOfAllTrades Hell, even cross-genres the concept of playing different match-ups differently happens. For example, in card games, whose the beatdown is a good question to ask, particularly when both sides can possibly go for the face.

[@rachetmarvel931]

@@VinceOfAllTrades Guilty Gear is unique and special.

[@myboy_]

I have no clue where he got this idea that okizeme = rush down

[@t4d0W]

Probably from some hot takes on twitter or something from casual/ignorant people talking about FG stuff. And Sajam is one who will create content to help teach and dispel misunderstandings like these.

[@myboy_]

@@t4d0W yeah but I feel like leon should know better

[@benjaminbeltran7004]

He has no fucking idea, there's a podcast he did with blasted salami and theory fighter and he eventually stopped answering question because he couldn't disguise the fact that he is clueless in a live environment, he ended answering every question with something like "well i'm not sure about this i think theory fighter should answer instead" also, he is a may player...

[@FOGSHIE]

None of his videos compare to the level of *correct* analysis that someone like Core-A Gaming displays.

[@budafuka]

@@FOGSHIE Not hating on Core-A Gaming, but that dude tends to project a lot in his vids, too. Wouldn't be a problem imo if these guys weren't trying to frame their content as purely objective analytical video essays.

[@standingfierce9285]

took me a minute to realize "show-o" is british for shoto

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

In Britain Tea is not optional. The letter T on the other hand.....

[@havenxochiquetzalli8083]

"when you get in on a zoner" peacock has a boarderline safe dp....

[@overweightactor]

No, she doesn't. Punch move is trash.

[@AaronRotenberg]

I think Leon assumes that zoners' oki in other games consists of getting a knockdown and then running away to the other side of the screen so they can throw more projectiles.

[@redvenomweb]

Yes, getting a knockdown and then backing up *solely to create space* is a thing that exists outside of ArcSys games.

[@ivrydice0954]

@@redvenomweb I think the point was you can be a zoner without returning to neutral each time you win it.

[@GohTheGreat]

Guilty Gear/Fighterz characters aren’t all rushdown, but rather it’s the encouraged playstyle. Potemkin is still a Grappler no matter what, but your encouraged to rushdown.

[@Disvoidal]

I just thought Leon's vid was an April fool's joke this whole time

[@sethwoligroski9166]

I think he's making it seem like a character's advantage state is the character, whereas if you look at the characters neutral and defense (especially their specific goals IN neutral), their destinations become more clear

[@NeoBoneGirl]

I think the problem with Leon's GG videos is that his enthusiasm for the series is far bigger than his knowledge about the game. A lot of shit he says in the archetype video is just straight up wrong, which would be fine if it wasn't specifically trying to be educational about GG.

[@Ouryuu-Zenokun]

Leon's stuff is _entertaining_ to watch, not really _educational_ most of the time tbh

[@Unit_00]

he was also hella wrong in 3rd strike's Twelve video. That's something that I really dislike about his content. If you don't know what you're talking about then don't try to make informative videos.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@Ouryuu-Zenokun That’s the problem though. The archetypes video, and more of his vids to be honest, are trying to make an actual point he thinks is correct but is really wrong. He puts jokes on the videos, but you can tell he intended for you to take most of it seriously.

[@Unit_00]

@Nivrap Study the game you want to make content for. EDIT: I mean, if it's supposed to be informative content

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@Nivrap Being wrong if you’re in the middle of a match streaming is fine, but the problem is that Leon spends a lot of time making videos trying to convince people of things that are just not true. And because most people have even less knowledge about GG than him, they’re probably gonna believe whatever he says

[@grant5758]

I think people could see gg as a more rushdown heavy game is because aggression is rewarded more heavily than other games.

[@ApexGale]

You can tell who plays Skullgirls and who doesn't if they say "Poor Beowulf" for the character in the game who gets to just ignore the Undizzy mechanic in the game and i say this as a band/beo duo main

[@TheSeventhChild]

Its funny because you can show the clip of sage fighting the Peacock for Zoners. But there's also the clip of sage in the corner against iControl's Valentine just getting throw looped for half the match

[@orionfire1947]

One of my friends once described learning guilty gear as not only learning your character and the matchups, but rather learning guilty gear as a new game entirely for every single matchup that exists for each character, and that still has stuck with me because I find more truth in it the more I play.

[@MAYOFORCE]

I find it extremely hard to get a grip on what Leon Massey's point is in a lot of his videos, but I find his sometimes coherent rambling entertaining.. His video essays feel more like starting points for topics of conversation than an actual essay

[@vzm_underscore]

i think people forget that archetypes are like. not just One Thing They Do and is a baseline for the character and how they're built. its like saying "oh shit, potemkin hit me! he must not be a grappler because he didn't grab there!"

[@TheTsulz]

I thought he was just saying guilty gear is a game with high emphasis on offense

[@california_wang8078]

I mean yeah, that's what I thought so too. The comments around here is flaming Leon hard tho

[@kot4311]

@@california_wang8078 People seem to be arguing semantics while Leon’s point remains the same, that most every character is working towards a point where they have oki and GG emphasizes this more than other fighting games

[@freshlymemed5680]

Didnt he actually state that in his vid? Everyone has their own setplay and ways to utilize Oki but at the end of the day its all about "rushing down" your opponent while you still have the advantage. I feel like the video would have made more sense to people if he said it was a follow up to tension which setup the context of being aggressive in GG is good.

[@wforwumbo6134]

I personally don’t think he was saying “every character is rushdown” but instead showing that in guilty gear the lines of what makes one archetype and what makes another are blurred

[@kaitlynallen8082]

He's describing combos. Yeah, zoners sometimes combo out of their hits when it's safe for them to do so, but every character's got combos.

[@araknair9605]

"Are you deadass, Ed boy?" Rolf mockery made that clip golden lol

[@hyonizaki000]

Love Leon, his video was entertaining. Sajam's take was respectful and humorous but still managed to feel like constructive criticism. Hopefully, Leon uses it to become an even better essayist. And hopefully, hopefully, some weird beef doesn't manifest between the Sajam and Massey communities. I don't think that's the move, fam.

[@206lbs.hercules5]

I think that archetypes should be looked at in a more layered way. There are primary archetypes that are more about how characters play neutral. There are pretty much 4 primary archetypes which the vast majority of characters fit into, zoners, mid range characters, rushdown, and big characters. The role of big characters just means characters who are incredibly strong at close range and want to play at that range but struggle to get in, while rushdowns are designed around being good at getting in. After these you have more niche secondary archetypes like stance change characters, puppet characters, or set play characters that define more specific aspects of the characters. Also just because a character is a zoner doesn't mean they don't have pressure or mixups it's just about what they are trying to do during neutral.

[@gamelord12]

Sajam hates Peacock? You're officially a new Skullgirls player. Welcome!

[@dylanh.3793]

“Zoning needs to exist in a fighting game” “Zoning is cool” I’ve never seen Stockholm Syndrome this bad before.

[@GuitarSlayer136]

My question is always this: Are zoners fun to play? Yes Are grapplers fun to play? Yes Are rushdowns fun to play? Yes Are zoners fun to play AGAINST? No Are Grapplers fun to play AGAINST? Yes Are rushdowns fun to play against? Yes Thats the difference and always will be. Its one side fun in a 2 person game.

[@wanusanus4061]

@@GuitarSlayer136 That's just like, your opinion man

[@sleepinbelle9627]

@@GuitarSlayer136 ok but have you tried hitting the zoner

[@happycamperds9917]

@@GuitarSlayer136 I’m sorry, do you speak for the greater FGC when you say grapplers are fun to play against? Many people would disagree.

[@christianlayne2824]

@i i Why do you think their considered bad tier? Lmao cause they can almost barely do what their suppose too do.

[@TheMasterBlaze]

I thought Oki after hit, rinse repeat was a set-play character.

[@Se7enRemain]

I felt that Leon was trying to illustrate through hyperbole, that Guilty Gear as a series is incredibly offense oriented. For a fighting game, this makes it distinct in a genre with very similar rules. No one is going to mix up Guilty Gear for Super Turbo; even in the event that they looked identical graphically. I felt that this non-existent, easily exasperated character Leon was playing was great for introducing the concepts they wanted to convey without going through every individual bullet point. (Negative penalty is a mechanic, running forward gives you meter, meter doesnt carry over between rounds, every character has some form of Oki) all concepts Leon Massey understands and has articulated before. I respect that you feel the time was wasted, and the ideas were poorly executed. I watched the video and just thought it wasnt for someone with my experience as a fighting game player

[@atmnwntr]

Love the timestamp even though im gonna watch the whole video

[@chimericalical]

I love this video. So, here’s a few thoughts. 1. I love the concept of “I’m really good at this thing, and you’re really good at that thing, but here’s a balanced challenge where we can both do our thing, it’s fair, and we we play wildly different styles of gameplay with wildly different abilities and needs for out gameplay to work and ways to adapt to situations, but it’s fair. We win close to 50/50 in most skill levels.” And that’s the point. 2. FGC characters MOSTLY, (but joy always) follow the traditional boxing fighting tropes: Rushdown (swarm) > Zoning (outboxing) > Slugger (grabbing/Super armor) > Rushdown… So when I play zoning and have a few people who play against me with grabble/big body, and rush down I like how the rush downs make me better at zoning, I make the grabblers get used to zoning and how to cope and be a threat, and after I get good enough dealing with Trish down they learn to overcome anti rushdown from zoners and get better at mind games. My favorite is when a rushdown and zoner have a 50/50 against each other and it boils down to who’s the best at what they do.

[@richman6974]

My favorite archetype is Earth, because it is very fair and balanced

[@myboy_]

Is this a melty blood reference

[@richman6974]

@@myboy_ maaybeee...

[@doncinati7644]

My favorite archetype is Roa

[@Patrick-zk2rq]

i think the takeaway here is that characters shouldn't be defined by their offense, but rather what their ideal range is in neutral. Ram's ideal range is vastly different from Haehyun's or Venom's ideal range, but they could still be considered 'zoners' by the general populace. I think it should be midrange, long range, short range might be a better classification. Unfortunately rushdown and zoners are just buzz words at this point

[@МаксимЗахаров-ы3ю]

Solobeo literally has no way to escape from Peacock's zoning with a good assist.

[@I_Am_Veks]

I laughed out loud when I heard him say Ky was honest. Come on, man. Nobody in Gear is honest lmao. Especially not Mr. Stun Edge YRC

[@Sleeepy.]

Yeah I think the weird part about Leon’s video is that it feels like he is kind of applying the use of the word archetype in game states where archetypes aren’t as well defined. If you had a fighting game where you get a bar of meter every time you backdashed after a knockdown, it would be a very common option during oki. We prescribe archetypes based on what the character usually wants to do (mostly in neutral) everyone wants to take advantage of oki in some way, so the differences during that gamestate are going to most often be the few options which have been demonstrated as being the most effective tool for that specific interaction. I love Leon and think he’s a great avenue to get people into the fgc, I think he’s really well spoken, and genuinely funny and passionate, but I think sometimes that last part muddies the water a bit. I get the vibe that his desire to make an entertaining video will sometimes eclipse his desire to teach, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, I just wish the format wasn’t so explicitly educational to begin with so he had a bit more room to stretch in that aspect. Also don’t listen to me idk what I’m talking about I just really like typing

[@4747474747bigal]

"I don't know the lore of this character." That might be best, it's very very sad...

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

I enjoyed Leon's video, even though I have the same issue with it that Sajam did, but I think it's the weakest in the playlist. novriltataki's +R video was really good. TheoryFighter's talk on team games was interesting.

[@victoriawang1356]

Personally, I think that Leon was doing this video long joke about the weird relationship GG has with archetypes and the general speed of the game.

[@kevl0rneswath]

I always find it weird that people think that there are no good zoning characters in SFV just because Guile, Menat and Dhalsim are also good at offense.

[@disorderedfm6502]

Man it drives me crazy. Everyone on reddit thinks Oki = rushdown and defensive = passive.

[@TheSeventhChild]

Zoners always have that one move that they use once they've put you to sleep with the soothing sound of the block sound effect, be it Phonon 66[B] or Nu suddenly doing teleport throw/overhead.

[@DXYS95]

I don't know what information you got from that video, but this is what I got: no character fits in one archetype. So I don't really get the criticism, I thought that was pretty clear towards the end

[@masterdoge7219]

Not gonna lie, when that Rushdown vs. Zoning conversation started and the guy said that it was like this in Guilty Gear, all I could think of was Guile, a character primarily known for "zoning", getting in your face and hitting you nonstop until that Sonic Hurricane. Yeah... I don't think this is exclusive to GG.

[@madthrasher88]

Cutting down character archetypes is like having an RPG with a class system and just two classes

[@curlytops01]

“Twerkin on them with your unseeable 12 mixups per second” I’m crying

[@adams3627]

Every match against a good Peacock is like Sonny's death in Godfather "Look what they did to my boy..."

[@spybreak23]

"Sajam talks about random shit" is my favorite genre of educational fighting game video. Good work!

[@jarvisdotson7274]

Yeah. I think the problem with his definition of rushdown is the goal of almost every fighting game character is to score a knockdown because that generates huge advantage and can loop into itself. But how they get that and what they do after they get it is different from character to character.

[@intergalacticdegengypsy6135]

Rush down - can get in quickly/free, doesn't care if U block, will attack anyway Mixup - gets in easily, wants U to block and guess wrong Zoner - wants U to try to get in, usually mistaken for having bad neutral/inside game Grappler - gon kill U in 3 moves but still gonna take 90 secs to do it Setup - mad fun, mad technical, mad weak without putting the time in Godlike - UI goku

[@JmosesX]

I wish my Peacock was like that. That Peacock is why I like fighting games, I want to hit you but we need to be six feet so I don't get covid

[@punkitt]

I mean...I feel like the "everyone is a rushdown" punchline is just that. A punchline. It's more of a joker than a serious claim.

[@ROBAKABIGPAPA]

"hi I'm mark Brown and this is Game Makers Toolkit. Allow me to not say anything for 11 minutes. Did you know Mario... Jumps?"

[@illgeteverythingback]

mark ass brownlee

[@gatorssbm]

My favorite part about zoners is that grapplers get to suffer, totally not a biased zoner main /s

[@nico-wj1mh]

video essay space is oversaturated and has been for 5 years

[@The-toast]

Its unfortunate that I love video essays and wont stop watching them!

[@jeanegreene374]

Another good example is Hisoutensoku, the Touhou fighting game. Every character has one button for melee attacks and two projectile buttons, with most specials and supers being projectiles. It ends up where characters have defined archetypes within that mold.

[@BrJPGameplay]

PeaBand is pain, dekillsage need more than assistance, he needs a drink, a hug and someone to tell him everything will be okay

[@ggpt9641]

Watch what they do, and respond afterwards. As a zoner-at-heart, you can make sure you react in the midst of what they do. It's the oldest trick in the book. Good job Sajam.

[@loogatdisdood]

king in kof 13 is a zoner with EXTREMELY effective rushdown, but ask anyone and they aren't remembering her as rushdown

[@Sorrelhas]

You see, Sajam, rushdown is pressing buttons when the opponent is blocking, so technically, every character in every fighting game ever is a rushdown

[@ram_apologist]

Sometimes I feel like there's only two archetypes in GG: Zoners with deadly mixup potential and oppressive oki, and rushdown characters with commanding screen presence and punishing neutral options. Which is to say they're all on drugs

[@EleventhFloorBelfry]

Once had someone try to tell me that Akuma was more of a Zoner than Sagat because he has more fireballs.

[@Talz622]

8:20 still don’t know what the hell Sajam said right here

[@rsotuyo15]

Ah men a KI archetypes would have been cool.

[@DctrBread]

i think the idea that a zoner is trying to keep people out to all exclusion of a chance to get in mostly only exists because some grapplers in historical street fighters were so bespoke on close range defense that you'll get served if you try your luck at okizeme. So you knock them down and just reset to neutral.

[@Luchamasterfit]

Honestly when I think of rushdown I'm usually thinking of a character who's tools allow them to force a more active or well built defense game to survive. Tons of mix left, right, high low mix ups, timing mix ups. Their game plan is built around being able to open you up more effectively then other archetypes. Its more about their effective game plan before they succeed. I dont think what people get off of knockdown defines them at all. I think you simply always get rewarded for using your archetype to achieve said knockdown. Chipp is all screen noise very fast until the mental stack is so high to get mixed. Sol doesnt do that

[@ruaannnn]

You applied offensive pressure after a knockdown in the wrong neighborhood.

[@errrick1]

While watching the stream: "What does he mean by the LoL nexus?... OH THE MINIONS"

[@wotwott2319]

Meanwhile in Tekken: super massive fuckoff electric beam gets outplayed by a dude stepping to the left.

[@TKVirusman]

Yeah I think the problem is that literally every single character in every single fighting game I have ever played apart from Tekken and Soul Calibur is a "rushdown" character on OKI if by rushdown you mean can do mixups and has safe pokes that don't cost you your turn. The issue lies in that what a character can do on OKI has nothing to do with their neutral play or archetype generally. All that reductive notion does is turn everyone into a rushdown mixup character as Leon demonstrates.

[@cookiecreep9204]

As i mainly play solo Miss Fortune, that Beo clip felt close to home.

[@grilin18.]

Stares at Fighterz where the everyone is rushdown joke is way more real

[@hee-ho-kun9106]

this just in, if you have a combo, you're a rushdown character :p

[@pumkinswift8263]

I feel like Leon's understanding of archetypes would improve a lot from reading "Who's the Beatdown". I think Sajam has brought up this article before, its a MtG article about what your goal is at any given moment. You see, in Magic, any archetype of deck can play like an Aggro or Control deck would given the boardstate. Archetypes don't define what a character can do at, just what they want to do and what they're the best at. In Fighting Games, every character wants to hit their opponent. Even the most defensive character's ultimate goal is hitting their opponent until they die. This means that offensive concepts like Okizeme are going to come up for every character at some point during a game, unless they just get totally bodied lol. The fact that every character can do Rushdown or Grappler things, or a lot of characters can do Zoner things in certain situations doesn't make those character that archetype. Archetypes define what a character excells at and what their biggest weaknesses are.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

honestly the music sorta made this segment in leon's video though. normally im too much of a hipster to think much of undertale music in YT videos but it was used in a funny way here