Intentional Design and The Modern Fighting Game Dilemma

This is not react kontent, although it is related to all these videos:
• I Like My Games...LOOS...
• Why modern games seem ...
• The Consequences of 'L...
• What people think is m...
streamed Mar. 13, 2022
Follow Sajam on Twitter & Twitch:
/ sajam
/ sajam
/ discord
If you're ever confused by some terminology try looking it up in the FG Glossary:
glossary.infil...
Clips Channel:
/ sajamclips
Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste:
/ magicmoste
#FGC #Sajam

[@SupermanSajam]

Also something I’ll talk about soon maybe, is that part of what makes so many modern games feel “solved” so much faster. It has some part to do with how they are created, but also has tremendously changed with the skill level of modern fighting game players, and how how information travels. There are some really good examples of things from old games which took a long time to discover, which would very quickly be found in the modern era.

[@FGCbaronkorvo]

This was something I was curious about. Can't wait to hear your take on it

[@GuyWithAnAmazingHat]

The problem of fighting games getting solved easily nowadays is that when you have every single piece of data available to you, it means there's an optimal set of choices for every single frame and not making those choices means that you are objectively wrong. As the game becomes more solved, the game becomes less creative, less about skill over others but more about who's making less blunders. This is why the greatest chess player of all time Bobby Fischer quit chess, he claims that computers have shown that chess no longer has creativity, it's about playing the optimal moves, if you don't you'll just lose to the opponent who makes those optimal moves. I think "emergent gameplay" is gameplay that has so many variables that it is nearly impossible to solve or have a ceiling that's humanly impossible to reach, so discoveries and choices are extremely vast, which contributes to be fun, especially in a non E sports competitive way.

[@Halvga]

Yeah, I think long-time gamers consistently underestimate the effects of gaming turning from a niche hobby into a mainstream pastime. There's orders of magnitude more people involved "solving" games and the competitive scene to maximize profitability. That's the tradeoff of the industry's success. Similar to the sports or tv industries.

[@lordxmugen]

@Sajam its more just what you said. A lot of "taking out most of the moves that served little to no purpose and only having moves that exist with a general or less niche case scenario." and what that really does is quicken the pace so everyone gets to the top faster, since theres less superfluous fluff. Its now "easier" to play like a pro, since the pros will use the same couple of moves given. Personally, I dont like this because it means its hard to build your own "style" or way of playing. Or if you can, its more subtle than if the moveset was more "complex" or dense. But like you said in the video, the problem with dense movesets is its hard to make some where all of the moves feel like they have a place or a good enough use and reason to be in the game.

[@Michael_Raymond]

I'd start by establishing what "solved" means, because it gets misused the same way "emergent gameplay" does. Like, a "solved" game is one where you know what to do in any given situation, but that doesn't mean a game isn't fun. Plus, different levels of a game have different metas and "solving" them is often how you rank up. Beginners play the game of "don't get hit" until they solve it, then they play "don't drop your combos" until they solve that game, then they move up to the game of spacing, decision-making, etc.

[@ZeludeRose]

emergent gameplay is when press button does the thing i like, and NEW GAME doesnt have the thing i like so its not emergent gameplay

[@trujenius9645]

This dude spitting frfr

[@time2sleep685]

It's a term created to celebrate games fucked design wise in a fun to play way...

[@Guitar-Dog]

It's defos a buzzword, but B hopping and Speedrun strata are cool

[@SupermanSajam]

Honestly 90% of fighting games are if you’re happy when hitting buttons so you’re spitting

[@EliDEVITTSpeaks]

💀💀💀.

[@slime-mahou-shoujo]

I think people confuse "emergent gameplay" with "intentional design." A lot of new fighting games are definitely more straightforward, but even over the past 10 years it's clear to see that there are distinct things the developers do and do not want players to do. In the '90s it seemed like developers thought "we're gonna make a fighting game." In the '00s it seems like devs thought "we're gonna make a fighting game with an emphasis on x." In the '10s, it seems like we've reached a point in fighting game design where developers know what they want the game to play like and have enough experience playing and balancing games beforehand that they can get pretty close.

[@SJNaka101]

Emergent gameplay just means that the developers didn't consider all the ways the systems they built can interact. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, and thats usually subjective. But, generally, I think players like it when they discover things that weren't necessarily intended or accounted for, and those things enhance the gameplay rather than totally breaking it.

[@Freakattaker]

Tons of now intended things in games were spawned from emergent gameplay for the better NGL. Combos from SF2 are literally that. Then there's DotA 2 with emergent gameplay mechanics due to WC3 engine restrictions for the OG DotA. Another example is LoL. The og creators of it wanted to escape the engine restrictions of WC3 and even made old off hand PR statements on their old dead forums about how they disliked emergent gameplay and called it "lazy game design". If anyone's boomer enough to remember GunZ the Duel, K-style was literally the maindraw of that game but was born from emergent gameply and was put back QUICKLY when the devs tried to remove it because the game wasn't fun without it.

[@SJNaka101]

@@Freakattaker yes, sometimes bugs become features because they enhance the fun!

[@williampounds5191]

You know, except the times they do totally break it. Which is likely the case in a TON of the mountains of fighting games we forgot about that came out at the same time as games like 3rd Strike, MvC 2 and 3, etc. But in the age of patching it does seem like devs should let things rock if it's not super busted.

[@SJNaka101]

@@williampounds5191 yeah, things like patching out oro fast fall are mistakes imo. It didn't put oro at the top of the tier list or anything, but it made the character more fun! Sometimes, developer pride can get in the way

[@FlameEcho]

I think part of the with the love for emergent design is that people's fondness of it is riddled with survivorship bias, they remember all the games where it turned out well and forget all the games that because the unintend effects were so negative didn't get played and didn't get remembered. Like Shaq Fu is full of emergent gameplay, and pretty much every kusoge is full of jank unintended broken shit.

[@capefeather]

I think the term had its uses back when information was hard to come by and single people could knowledge check entire continents. In this day and age I don't think it has any coherent definition. It reminds me of Leon Massey's Strive review where he flippantly gave +R the same rating as Strive even though it has nearly all of the things that he said was good about Xrd. It's all just people communicating really, really badly.

[@SupermanSajam]

I’m giving you a heart just for how sick “knowledge check entire continents” is as a sentence tbh. It’s a fact, and there are some cool examples IMO

[@jamekapur4205]

@@SupermanSajam I'd watch a video about it 👀

[@henriquefinger935]

Leon Massey is a joke.

[@Yuki_1927]

@@henriquefinger935 I mean... his British.

[@saltyluigi4011]

@@henriquefinger935 why

[@TigerClaws]

emergent sploinky

[@matrix3509]

I mean, you can make a Street Fighter game with lots of freedom in regards to decision making. They made two games in row with lots of freedom: 3rd Strike and SFIV. Both games made use of one universal mechanic that massively expanded the decision making tree and made the skill ceiling basically infinitely high. Yes, both of those games were shit on by the community, both at the beginning of their competitive lives and at the end of their competitive lives, but at this point I'd say that's a completely normal phenomenon that will happen to every game until the end of time.

[@numa2k147]

You are right but you forgot to point out what the DEVS wanted and how they respond to how the community responds to their design (like toning down crush counters in SFV because players at launch would only use heavy buttons). At the end of the day it's their decision good or bad. Also, SFIV isn't shitted on by the community don't worry it's a beloved game as it should be

[@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034]

@@numa2k147 It was shitted on at the beginning I think we all know that one.

[@joqqeman]

Whats the infinite about sfiv

[@dragoknighte48]

@@numa2k147 It isn't *now,* but that's well after its competitive lifespan came to an end. By the time we were at Ultra people were sick and tired of SF4 and were shitting on it constantly.

[@SupermanSajam]

I don’t think freedom in choice for SF is a problem, or what I mention in regards to SFs more grounded nature compared to other fighting game franchises. It just has a lower system and character power level than other franchises, and I think that’s a part of why SF fans gravitate towards it.

[@goose5288]

i think this style is sick. sajam just talking and providing really cool insight to fighting game topics is i think my favourite content on youtube (frfr) and i think the style of editing really compliments that. also sick to see something new (at least i havent seen something like that on this channel)

[@Creative_Joke]

The real emergent gameplay was the friends we made along the way

[@CaitLikesCoffee]

Great video! loved the visual touches on the parts of the convo to accompany Sajam's commentary!

[@walterburdzy5408]

Shout outs to Moste for the very critical reference images throughout the discussion. He knows how the game is really played.

[@zerojones0]

The thing that confuses me with the idea of emergent gameplay is that sometimes emergent gameplay can be found in modern games but because information is so blistering fast because of the internet the speed of learning is insane these days. I guarantee that if older games existed now that they would be figured out waaaaayyy faster than compared in the past.

[@Sorrelhas]

Emergent gameplay is the new ludonarrative dissonance

[@EliDEVITTSpeaks]

People making fancy words for "discourse" annoy me.

[@ZzigZaG00NIN]

I keep hearing from you guys how people switched up on rev 2 when strive came out Lk also talks about how he's seen it happen so many times it's crazy to me how thing always turn out like that not only is it hard to make fans happy but it's hard to know if they were even unhappy in the first place

[@affegpus4195]

Gamers are just whinny

[@bb010g]

@@affegpus4195 horse gamers

[@MMurine]

@@bb010g neigh gamers

[@ScriptZac]

You know, for all the 'MaX iSn'T aCtUaLlY FgC' dorks out there, it's kinda funny that everyone and their mom is weighing in on this.

[@mralberonenfgc]

Forget the emergent gameplay, is no one noticing how on point Sajam’s hair is today

[@affegpus4195]

Emergent hairplay

[@mralberonenfgc]

@@affegpus4195 💀 that's what the community actually needs rn

[@kiracaos]

Can Sajam react to Romolla reaction to LK reaction to Max reaction to the video?

[@chaselewis5372]

I think the other thing for 'emergent' game play is moves have much clearer purposes and that prevents people playing the same character differently. You mention LK saying he wouldn't whiff punish with a certain move because he didn't feel he could do it. Sometimes things like that breed entirely different styles and when moves are not designed as narrowly it's possible for people to find different solutions to the same problem that are optimal for what they want. It's having 2-3 options to solve the same thing that are each more rewarding in different ways. The moment you have a combo or situation that is better than all ways the decision tree narrows to a line and it becomes a matter of timing not of option selection which is less entertaining.

[@CaptinSpyke]

Emergent yoinky hits different

[@temetyly]

I've been playing master Duel as a new yugioh player, and I think it's interesting that while everyone whines about how wild the games gotten, it's probably the card game designed to encourage the most "emergent game play". I think it comes down to how many basic blocks the devs make that can be combined in lots of novel ways that they havn't even planned - a rigid defined system, more complex building blocks, might be smoother, and might have less random jank, but the trade off is that things will work out the same way - 'properly' - more of the time. I enjoy tekken because I feel it's really natural and intuitive how things come together /chain together, namely 'realistically', as emergent as real Combat can be. I don't play it, but I think Melee lasting this long, comes down to emergent game play, play that emerges because the basic building blocks can fit together in a host of interesting ways that the devs didn't, or couldn't plan (which is where the value comes from - player imagination on a long enough timeline will always overshoot what devs can conceive during a limited development cycle) - I might even say melee looks like it has the most emergent game play amongst fighting games haha, if you include it. And I imagine that's why a lot of people enjoy yugioh to, even though it's crazy these days.

[@anface]

you could make a game where every button does the exact same thing and people will still figure out which ones are best to press

[@seokkyunhong8812]

It sorta happened with SF's mash moves. There's an entire video by Theory Fighter

[@NeoBoneGirl]

I think it’s more patching culture that changed “emergent gameplay” than any new game design philosophy. When things are unintended by devs, they don’t just let it rock any more, they fix it, because that’s their job. But it means that a game like Marvel 2 won’t ever come out again

[@ratedr7845]

Try dnf duel

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@ratedr7845 Brother. The game is not out yet. DNF Duel will also certainly get patched, it's not some "savior" to emergent gameplay.

[@tootsie_]

Aye shout outs to this editor for these extra pictures. Very cool change to the format. Also emergent gameplay isn't as important to me as skill expression. If there's some movement tech or whatever, but if it's the only thing that's good for movement then I think it's boring.

[@waow2859]

The small visual additions to the side are a really nice touch! Would love to see more like it.

[@jimbo5266]

I think it's a big mistake to just say everything unintentional is "emergent gameplay." Emergent gameplay is when multiple existing mechanics come together to create something new. If a dev forgets to add a hurtbox to a move, that's not emergent gameplay. It's no more "emergent" than a move that has invincibility by intentional design. And I find it weird how many people seem to love emergent gameplay, but will praise +R over Strive. Specifically, the RC system in GG has intentionally become more and more emergent. With drift RC, blue RC, and being able to RC practically anywhere, the devs are letting you use RC in such an open way, when originally it mostly just let you recover fast on hit/block, or at a very specific point in the move that was specifically hard-coded in by devs. Sure, strive has less moves, simpler characters, but that has nothing to do with "emergent gameplay." Sometimes people will just pick something specific they liked about an old game (maybe the DHC glitch in MvC3), and will then make a mountain out of a molehill, and act like they have some really high-concept reason for liking the old game better. Which is especially funny when new games often try to elevate old glitches into new mechanics (the tag system in MvCI was way more open-ended than the DHC glitch).

[@theSHELFables]

I think another thing worth mentioning in the modern era is that patches are an expectation right? Like there's a lot of people that complained about Oro Fast Fall or Danfinite being removed as "Capcops removing the fun" but Ive seen just as many people look at that stuff before it got patched out and react with "lol yet ANOTHER reason SFV is garbage lol they just leave busted shit in the game cause they dont care, they dont even know how to make a game lol etc". Sometimes its even the same people. I also want to say I agree with what you said about SF players being drawn to the more limited combos and more grounded neutral of that series. I love the way SFV feels to play and its kind of annoying how people look at the fact that you dont just get to mash through a magic sequence and have it all work once you touch someone as some kind of flaw. No disrespect to anime games or anything else but there are SO MANY of those kinds of games out right now with how prolific ArcSys is that I feel like those people could probably just play those games instead of demanding that SF follow that same design ethos. I like that longer combos are more rare in SF games. I like that the neutral is more played on the ground than in the air. I just like Street Fighter. Dont get me wrong, sometimes Im in the mood for air dashes and whatever else, so I still do enjoy those kinds of games but its so lame to me that people find something they like more and immediately start touting it as the "correct" way for all fighting games to be. I dont comment on here often but I also wanna say I appreciate your content a lot. Its real good stuff.

[@guilhermeberbert]

have a thumbs up, my guy. i feel the same way

[@anonymousAJ]

People complain about thing -> thing changes -> people complain about new thing This pattern looks hypocritical but I think mostly it's different people

[@qedsoku849]

Imagine having a solved game.

[@thisistherun4015]

The slideshow thing adds a lot to your videos, helping make sure people are on the same page when you're talking. Natural addition

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

I think it depends on how the devs make their intentional design and also how they deal with things the community finds. Sometimes it is the right move to see some character specific thing and make it a feature or do things yo make characters even more unique and cool. I think that is the challenge is figuring out what works for your series.

[@dreadgrave3379]

Him saying "Brain's video" was what it took for me to realize this was not a Brian_F secondary channel for longer talking videos... I then had to find a video with both of them in it to make sure but gotdamn

[@TurntReynolds]

HMC has exactly 1 use & requires full meter: you bait the opponent into jumping so you can Dragon Uninstall & punish them in the air. It doesn't work every time, but I've gotten a few sicknasty air grabs or DPs off of it. Problem is, you can only use it once before your opponent knows better and won't fall for it twice (unless they're bad). Aside from that 1 specific use, it is objectively a trash move

[@113Kyote]

People complaining about Strive having too many strong, hard to deal with moves, when the game's roster is notably neutered compared to it's predecessors: What I think is happening that creates this mentality is that people believe if *their* character had more options to deal with or the same tools as other characters that they would be losing/winning on a more "fair" or even playing ground. But most of the time they aren't really considering how much harder it would be for their opponents to fight against them as a result of that. I also think that when people start to discover which parts of their character's kit they dislike they begin comparing it to the characters that don't have those same problems. They might want to know why their character doesn't have the same tools or they might want to know why they were designed differently, but since they can't just call up the devs and ask they have to pick a frame of reference. Like for example let's say someone didn't like how Baiken or May don't get knockdown very easily off of their f.S or 2S hitting. A person that doesn't fully understand the reasoning behind that might look at Sol and say "Well Sol gets good return off of his f.S and it's plus! That's how it should be for my character!" And that's how we end up at these crossroads. I kind of get it though. Or at least I get where the sentiment comes from. This seems to me like a topic that could end up being it owns big crazy discussion. There are a lot more reasons why I believe Strive's player base is kind of in a weird in between spot on what they want. Most of us get that if more shit was added to the game, it would make the existing problems and characters that much harder to deal with. But even so, it still feels like something is missing from the game that could help give players that sens elf freedom or expression.

[@fishfillet5555]

I don't like new games because devs intentionally limit themselves instead of going towards a vision they used to have. When I watch high level bbcf and xrd I always wonder if the things that go on in matches is 100% intended or by some chance is not with how varied people play characters. A perfect example of that would be Xrd May, she is a character that can be played very rushdown heavy with really strong oki tools like beach ball and hoops but also she could be played from afar with these tools but in strive the only way the character can be played is rushdown with strike/throw with explosive damage to compensate for the lack of tools she has which is just very sad to me since her play style way very unique and they sacrificed it to make her very very bland. I know Strive is a new game still getting updates but I genuinely don't see this game turning into what older games became at the end of their developing lifespans and that just disappoint me immensely since the philosophy these devs have nowadays is only caring about new players experience by assassinating interesting concepts and hurting the longevity of their own games. It is one of the main reason I haven't really got into a new fighting game in the last 5-6 years as I feel like I am not the target demographic.

[@fishfillet5555]

This took many attempts to write. Sorry if my english is not that good. It is not my first language and I am kind of bad at it

[@saltyluigi4011]

@@fishfillet5555 looks fine bro

[@re-crafted2993]

The long and the short is that the fighting game is being refined. Developers are trimming the fat, attempting to distil the essence of a successful and fun fighting game from what we have now. Developers are locked in a heated race to develop the definitive entry game to the fighting game community. Once this game comes into existence, it will be the fertile ground that brings forth better crop. We're already seeing this now with the onslaught of games this year and next. Sit back and watch our awesome community grow!

[@superbro6413]

Shoutouts to the more visual elements Moste presented during Sajam's TED talk here, looks real clean Not sure if you have done this sort of thing before, but I think it's a great addition to these discussion videos Cheers

[@griftgfx]

This is an interesting discussion, especially as it applies across genres of video game, and not just fighters. The best (and most fun) tech in first person shooters is unintended gameplay.

[@Crescent-Adam]

Editing was chef's kiss.

[@seanlipscomb2118]

I think this sort of stuff is what the Smash community lives off of. Like yeah there’s optimal combo routes and strings and there’s certain neutral tools and movement options that are absolutely solved. A tier list? Boom. And then Axe or AMSA or Void or HungryBox or Gluttony or MKLeo even with his Byleth will come and absolutely shake things up. You get the satisfaction of having safe and easy ways to play, have fun, rank up or whatever by just focusing on improving your execution with a character but then at the top level you almost never know what to expect. There’s so many times where someone could pretty legitimately say “yeah, such and such character is mid-low tier.. UNLESS you’re one of the people mentioned above. The way THEY play the character is broken” and it’s exciting.

[@neotron6490]

Its true that especially in modern gaming not just about fighting game, where most of the game now will always had even more easier accessibility than the classic games with fairly limited amount of access, which because of "Quality of Life" exist in video game, and therefore you can't deny or ignored that even tho its always fine to like it or hate it depend on your thought and your experience to any introduced mechanic you just see in the newer release title. More often than that, its also noticeable that many gamers now will keep treating almost every game existed like a trading card than anything else which speaking of everyone literally play the same way and all (yes of course about that "Meta" thingy)

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

"Let's see if he does anything weird" 5 seconds later "okay he hit 2p this guy is on drugs" This is the moment where I realised that I have never truly played a fighting game, I have only ever just been hitting buttons.

[@stolensentience]

Emergent gameplay is gameplay so complex the creators cannot predict its endgame. They balance it just enough that even if someone “figures it out” it will be gdlk and obviously impressive to anyone who has spent more than an hour paying any form of attention to it. Newer games, however, lean on the fact that it is a zero sum game in the end regardless and will always be hard to win in consistently. And then they can replace ingenuity with streamlined, drip fed content to reach the same longevity that used to come about only from making an insanely deep game that won’t get patched but 2-3 times if at all in its entire lifespan.

[@Simon_E32]

I feel like I'm one of the few players who doesn't love the discovery period of games the most. My favorite part of learning a game is when things start to click, and now I have to dig deeper to improve. It almost feels artificial to improve in the very beginning of a game compared to later on where everyone knows what you're doing, and you have to make adjustments.

[@duggyfresh8899]

Im not gonna talk about whats good or bad with dnf duel, but dude YES the gatlings with normals are not super deep but its like people forget you have gatlings with specials which are the focus of the game. Im not completely hopeful for dnf, but i think its gonna be a very fun game. I just hope. It is good enough to enjoy fpr more then a month. Hopefully they also do something better with movement and defense.

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

I make videogames professionally. I only think emergent gameplay means anything from a game dev perspective. It's just when you design things with a certain intention, and the way the game gets played at high level isn't what you were planning, and it's similar to your video on tfh. I think there is a real issue where cool but unintended things get patched out (like oro jump stuff) rather than adjusted to fit within the design. In other words it's where you constantly patch the game to remove anything outside of the original design documents rather than adjusting unexpected stuff to fit the intention of the design.

[@Copperhell144]

Loved the edited images lmao, would love to see more of that

[@succzilla9577]

This is exactly how I felt about DNF duel, which is why I'm surprised so many people like the game. Neutral feels so limited with weak movement options while moves that hit you 75% of the screen exist.

[@NytFantom]

Great take! Immediately knew it when you mentioned emergent gameplay being thrown around as a buzzword at this point. From what I understand, emergent gameplay is when the collection of systems present in a game create another type of game that wasn't "intended". It is as you say immediately. Clear intent, proper descriptions, and high level play information being readily available make the old days of fighting games "emergent" gameplay not a thing anymore because (and this is my take) it never really was that. It was just players figuring things out that were really arcane or buggy and exploiting the hell out of it. Now everyone can do it given even just a little time of research on their mains. True emergent gameplay would be something closer to how Double Dragon was a beat''em up side scroller that turned into a fighting game at the end and if they took that concept and made fighting games with it. Oh wait!

[@StormHowl]

I used to be one of those folks who would say that "the old games are better and these new watered down games aren't as fun", but after watching all these videos and messing around in Strive again I realized that its not the fact that these games are watered down that bothers me, its the fact that they're slow. I love playing fast characters with great mobility options, and if there's a character in a slow game who fits that (IE Chipp, Lancelot) I find that the fun factor increases ten fold. So now I just look for that instead of lamenting "the good old days" where everybody was decently fast to bonkers.

[@Cambiony]

I think as a community it's very important to discuss how fighting games ought to be. There are a lot of things that are commonly held in high regard but are not defined very well or don't end up being that productive in the long run. This emergent gameplay thing being on of them. People being actually able to say what they actually want in a way that makes sense should help developers make games that more people enjoy.

[@Emtwplays]

Loving the editing on this one Moste. Great job!

[@erebosnyx7563]

Games are made of variables (health, position, hitbox, frame data...), and the more variables you have, the more states the game can be in. The more states there are, the more emergent the gameplay is, and you can induce it by designing interactions that modify as many variables as possible.

[@walterburdzy5408]

I think some facet of the emergent gameplay discussion boils down how quick data travels and how much people can play now, between replays, wikis to collate data, better netcode for more play, and just plain more people playing. Some part of it feels a bit like a criticism on over-design, but I think a lot of it just boils down to what Sajam said; homogenized play. It reminds me a lot of the recent years in magic the gathering, or really any card game, but if you look at the pro scene (at least when magic still had one) in the past five years, and compare it to even the previous five years before that you see a lot of complaints of the game being "solved" or stale. In some regards anything competitive is just zero sum and when you get so much traffic and so much data the road always converges into a particular spot. The real challenge for developers is how to make things approachable and still engaging knowing that the road can converge so quickly nowadays. It's not an easy task but I think they really do get it right more than they get it wrong in the modern Era of fighting games.

[@darkwalker269]

@14:30 This is the goddamn truth. Watching Sonic Fox play Erin Black Evo after Evo in MKX and just mix people up with overhead and low and seem to connect every single time felt like witchcraft

[@kevinli577]

i get to watch sajam talk AND look at moste's thumbnails at the same time? sick.

[@Alastorchaos]

ngl hate the popups after the mandatory youtube ads even if it's SUSSOL BADBAKAGUY

[@reeleh1791]

A great game to take note of in my opinion is soulcalibur. The game is basically all about neutral and dealing with pressure, combos are short and simple and not the important part and yet people like the series a lot.

[@Hedshodd]

You know, good video and all, but damn the outro bit had me burst out laughing. Dunno why that one got me this good.

[@kongogaming]

4:02 the absolute look of disgust before the cut

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

Emergent gameplay is when you can stack a bunch of boxes to solve your problems

[@wellthatss]

if i press a button and it gives me a dopamine rush then its good enough for my small brain

[@thabreaka]

Such a well done explanation and edit pointing out the catalysts to the evolution of fighting. Next level gaming development is absolutely only possible due to the speed information is shared. Even though it is creating copycats it still inspires legends to combine tech and approaches from their peers to create new play styles. As an old school player I really couldn't get into Guilty gear Strive because of the counter system but I love how it's animations have come along. Dragonball fighterz started like SF alpha and now feels like MVC. Unlike old games it evolved in itself through patches, DLC, and listening to fans which makes new games more stay fresh retaining their fan base.

[@hobg5786]

hmc is actually a neat whiff punish at low floors. most sols at like 7 and under are a little too fond of it but in moderation it can do something

[@blargh559]

I don't have anything useful to add to the emergent conversation, but I will say this, Aris is a national treasure

[@mysticalrandonmess]

So I'm most likely a new gen fighting game player so I'm going to do my comparison with two fairly recent games being MKX and MK11. in MKX characters had 3 different variations to choose from, some characters played extremely differently depending on the variation you picked, this in my eyes made the gameplay of characters feel expressive and explorable, my friend and I could both be playing scorpion but have completely different gameplans because of the variations we picked. When MK11 came around everyone felt more restricted, Scropion's spear no longer gave you a free combo extension, sub zero no longer had his ice clone, and the variation system was so butchered that even custom variations didn't feel that different to me, variation only change a maximum of 3 moves, didn't change the characters game plan that much, and most characters couldn't get good damage from combos without spending resources, everyone in MK11 felt so restricted to the point that the optimal way to play felt like the only way. The way I feel about "tight" or restricted game design is that I feel like it's getting to the point where characters can only play exactly the way developers design them and no other out the box thinking way, basically destroying player expression in my eyes. SFV'S Oro had an unintended fast fall when he released and players from what I saw loved it, but because it wasn't the way capcom wanted players to play Oro they got rid of it. Basically my point it's when you try to cut all the fat off a steak, you end up cutting off some of the meat too.

[@psychrosis8646]

I think a good example of a game with emergent gameplay, just look at BBTAG 1.0, people at that point were using assists as a way to extend combos/punish bursts. And then a rando japanese dude comes out of nowhere, goes to a tourney, uses cross combo in such a inventive and soon to be fucked up way. I think the devs didn't even know that they could do that because some characters just go through the opponent when they do a move+active switch, while Ruby Gord was so good with it because the devs thought their entire body should be a hitbox, so it didnt matter if they passed through. They soon patched it in the game to make cross combo a way to start pressure consistently throughout the cast. Kind of crazy once you think about it.

[@craigfairweather3644]

I think it's worth looking into what accessibility means in games, and what approachability means in games.

[@averagescrub3235]

Sadly enough the best example I have of emergent gameplay is the snap meta during DBFZ season 2, players learned the ins and outs of the game and started taking advantage of setups and fuzzy stuff to become almost unblockable and then snap you to death. No new mechanics were introduced as far as I remember that made things like that, it was just a viable strategy that emerged and became popular.

[@Pellumbi]

Out of all the people who spoke on this, I feel like your video was more relaxed and nuanced. When I watched the other videos, I rolled my eyes often because it felt that they were just saying there games are great and max is wrong. I didn’t even agree with everything max was saying but I also thought there arguments were more personal then it should have been. How you approached the topic, such as tone, helps the discussion be more then just an example war. Edit: i like brians video aswell.

[@ChozoAce]

This feels very familiar to Core-A talking about Innovators and Honers

[@how7639]

This video is sick loving the emergent editing.

[@atmnwntr]

what a clean looking thumbnail -

[@falconette8911]

Had to use the creepiest picture of Kyo Kusanagi ever....*backs away*

[@AgentBacalhau]

The actual proper definition of emergent gameplay is just gameplay that isn't intended by the devs. It's cool but it def shouldn't be in every game, and it's become such a buzzword for shit that makes *zero* sense.

[@OzonebxGaming]

I play the game for at least 2 months without getting tech from videos. Feels like I'm getting my money worth when I have to grind and learn the character I choose. I seen my nephew look up almost every scene in Resident Evil Village just to complete it. I told him the game would mean more and be more enjoyable if you figure it out on his own

[@timmysun1234]

I don't know who put the thing on the left but I like it

[@gipgap4]

Emergent gameplay equals unintended consequences that game developers didn’t plan for or intend to happen being discovered by players. SF2’s combo’s being the main one.

[@hmad898]

The devs did intend for there to be a combo system in sf2 though. It's just that the way it ended up happening was not intended.

[@stonecolda.p.]

Love the new editing

[@johnhurley8918]

I think what Max is describing isn't emergent gameplay when he says "loose". By that I feel like he means he wants to have a lot of options in any given scinario. To me, that's what contributes to freedom in fighting games. That's why I love Melee so much because even if you just look at movement, there are so many angles and places you can go at any given moment, and with the way knockback works, even getting hit is rarely the sqm3 experience twice and thus feels less punishing. I don't want to feel bad for doing something wrong, I want to feel good for doing something good.

[@dolphusraymond4331]

12:00 reminds me of honer vs innovator core a vid

[@loremasher]

You don't watch Mocchi to copy, you watch him to see something that no human can achieve

[@AlluMan96]

The part of the emergent gameplay discussion for me that I'll have issues with in games these days is less about the product that is made and more-so the aggressive patch-culture that makes these games into somewhat amorphous and harder to grasp. Whatever the strategy people are honing that is currently working is or whatever is currently a problem-character that is just really strong, a seaon's worth of patches can just completely turn that on it's head. A new mechanic is implemented, the powerful character get's nerfed and a weak character suddenly gets really tough through buffs and interaction with the changes in mechanics. Depending on the game, patch-culture has also acted as an excuse for developers to be more lazy and careless with their initial product, as the "Fix it in post" mentality has settled in. This isn't too prevelent in fighting games specifically yet, but it did take new Melty a whole season to give us an option to turn off auto-combos on everything. Now, it' not like this is a new phenomena. Edition changes were a thing and rebalances or system mechanics would alter and be added between them. It's just gotten more frequent and is being done on a more step-by-step fashion. Not to mention with different editions, it was easier to play the older builds of the game. I might never be able to play launch-Strive online ever again. Now on the whole, so long as these tweaks remain subtle enough, this stuff won't really affect me too deeply on my skill level. I don't have the understanding and don't play on the level, where the smallest tweak imaginable is something I can feel changing how I play. However, it does have an indirect effect on how I engage with the games. Newer games that are still in the middle of their huge, sweeping change-cycle, I take them much more casually. I don't see a reason to invest myself so heavily into a game, that might just invalidate parts of or all of that effort (We'll get back to that). If I was absolutely serious about going competitive and wanted to become a world-class player, I would choose a game, that is more static. SF2 Super Turbo, the original Melty, SF Third Strike, Guilty Gear +R or Rev 2, something I know will generally remain the same for the foreseeable future. I'd want to make sure I am studying things that are understood as a fact, not as a theory, so to say. Sometimes though, I have felt the sting of even these gradual changes pushing me out of my space and forcing me to adapt. In Guilty Gear Strive, I started the game with Giovanna and had a decent rhythm and groove going, but like halfway through season one, things had changed. Whenever Gio got some tweaks or changes and whenever subtle things were done to system mechanics, I felt it. Even if I couldn't pin it down exactly, these changes messed with that flow I was building and made things I got used to doing suddenly work differently or not work at all. It got awkward enough, that I had to switch to I-No and while I've now played her since then, it has had a knock-on effect in my head with the game, where I am unsure of whether I wanna invest time in something that might end up getting messed around with like Gio. Nothing was worse than Skullgirls' sudden and in my opinion unwelcome shake-up. For 5 years, I played the game in a relatively stable state. I could put the game down for a few months and come back with the game feeling just about the same. I loved playing Eliza, she was a perfect blend of mechanics, aesthetic and attitude that made her my go-to. When the new patch happened, Eliza got assassinated in the most confusingly aggressive change I've ever seen a modern fighter do. They just completely changed how her core gimmick worked and unlike with Gio, where it was just awkwardness I probably could have worked through with practice, this completely made Eliza into a character I no longer liked playing. Now I'm sort of lost in that game. I have no character to play and when the changes to Peacock displayed their willingness to keep messing with what was at this point completely set in aggressive and big ways made me lose interest in playing period.

[@Wiipodicus]

it make me sad when game is one way and I want to take that further and then game update takes away that thing

[@ERRandDEL]

I think the *only* thing I've managed to use HMC for is to punish slide head when Pot doesn't have 50% bar

[@Josukegaming]

Man the pictures on the side are really distracting from paying attention to what Sajam's saying / watching how he emotes while speaking

[@fetusgayming4234]

When I talk about xrd vs strive I gotta take into account that it was one of my first fighting games I took online and took kinda serious. When I went to strive I was better at fighting games as a whole. But I was still mad they took dragon install from sol and took chip’s teleport. I’m not big on the smaller move sets in strive but I kind of like it. It makes characters easier to pick up and use special moves kind of like dragon ball. But sometimes I feel like I’m not getting everything out of a character when playing strive. Xrd movesets feel more complete to me. Please give Xrd rollback I wanna go back and play online

[@testsubject_999]

I think having moves that are not optimal still add value to a game. Maybe they won't be used often or at all in high level play, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone saying they don't like Falcon punch or that wouldn't be upset if it were removed. I believe having wiggle room to play with moves that aren't optimal can bring a ton of fun and hype to a game. They can lead to incredible, but admittedly rare moments. For me personally at least some of those moments can get me interested in a game I wouldn't care for otherwise.

[@testsubject_999]

Can probably expand just "moves" to be moves and strategies.

[@theatrociousgod2929]

also I don't think this is something that is specific to fighting games, in terms of design, for all games in general it's much harder for like wacky design because the genres are so developed at this point

[@marrubium8559]

Thank you for the these opinions that my dumb ass will now repeat without properly understanding them.

[@NaughtyLink115]

People usually love emergent gameplay because we hear all the crazy cool stuff from the boomer days like Plink dashing, Wavedashing, Korean Back Dashing, and hell even the combo system in Street Fighter 2. It's super exotic when talked about because the developer never intended said mechanics which makes it almost like divine intervention. I think people just miss that discovery because of how fast games get patched, fixed, or new games replace old games. Think about all the nuts glitches that people have discovered in MVC2, MVC3, and UMVC3 then compare those to MVCI. It's night and day, if a glitch is found, its patched. Now obviously thats a double edged sword because the marvel games have major bugs that literally softlock the game, cause infinites, or just break the balance. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Some people hate MVC2, others praise the game.

[@aramondehasashi3324]

What is this video here @9:37 ? I've seen the other videos he mentioned except for this one.

[@hoshi314]

Whether it's intentionally designed or no i think nowadays devs blow the lid off techs intentionally as in hey you can do this too instead of letting people discover it themselves, and in the case of new fighting games whre patches are like a few days away this discussion hits different. I think if capcom can patch mvc2 back then they sort of would

[@Ali-fs7ze]

Yo moste going ham with the visuals.

[@R-JYYY]

I was just thinking about how sajam would react to this video..

[@AndrewRKenny]

Beyond intentional design or emergent gameplay or whatever, I think a lot of people are just sad that things that they associated with their favourite franchises at some point in its lifetime. If you really liked the Roman Cancel system in +R, then that's too bad because it changed in Guilty Gear and no other franchise has anything really like it. Imagine if GG just removed RCs full stop (I can't imagine they ever would, but bear with me here for the sake of the example). It can kinda make you resentful of a part of the game (and, more broadly, a part of the franchise) that you enjoyed is now effectively gone. I think people are sad, upset, angry, etc. when those things change or are removed because the qualities they associated with the game or franchise are no longer there. When franchises build expectations (intentionally or not) for what they have to offer as a complete package, and then those things start changing, people feel unhappy. Everybody has a different idea of what should be kept, discarded, expanded upon, and reduced from installment to installment in a series. It's easier to point and "no true Scotsman" a new entry that doesn't fit that mold than it is to accept that the series is constantly evolving, and what it once was may no longer be something they like. I know for me I feel this way about a lot of new games (not just FGs). But I also appreciate a ton of quality of life changes like better UI and UX, cooler presentation, etc. whenever I go back to older games. I've kind of accepted that the niche I occupy as a consumer in the gaming space isn't really something that generates a lot of capital, so not a lot of games will be made to my exact taste. I see good faith attempts at vocalizing your opinion on what's good and bad as a means of trying to grow or showcase that whatever your consumer values are, that they are lucrative, numerous, and a desirable target audience.

[@cybermale]

gonna be honest I was a fan of the minimal editing before. I dont need a picture every 5 seconds to keep me interested. it feels like someone trying to fill their powerpoint with clip art.

[@dolphusraymond4331]

Was on a bus and had to hide my phone when sol started twerking on me :(

[@MagicMoste]

I also don't need visual aids, but many people do. I'm trying to find ways to engage with visual learners, an audience we have entirely neglected up to this point; give the videos a reason to be videos and not just audio files without resorting to needless digital zooms every other cut. This attempt I decided to do it on a lark so the visual elements were all scrounged together for sure, and the workload is too much to make every video like this anyway. The format will be refined in the future, but please let me try things or I'll lose my mind being so stagnant.

[@AkibanaZero]

Quite distracting, I must say. It works for KZbinrs who have this established as part of their format. With Sajam, I'm used to seeing him on screen all the time, maybe with a replay or visual aid he's using on the spot. The editor could have cut to the images in full screen which would have made more sense. But still, I'd rather they stuck to the minimal editing.

[@sleepofgc]

@@MagicMoste I think it's a good format. I think relevant clips can convey more information. Showing Tominaga when talking about optimal play makes sense, but showing him CA2 combos may be more helpful

[@cybermale]

@@MagicMoste I appreciate your reasoning, and also do appreciate that it wasn't as intrusive as you normally see these types of edits.

[@Bladebrent]

"Emergent Gameplay" is definitely a term thats kinda hard to understand and explain well. In the context of fighting games, its just what alot of old players have been asking for for a long time, just now they have a word for it: They want the game to give you more options off of your buttons instead of limiting everything to 'the one thing its designed to do.' From my understanding, even just letting each player pick two separate characters is 'emergent gameplay' because the devs didnt specifically program what happens when Character A fights Character B. The gameplay of Zoner vs Grappler is 'emergent' because thats just the results of how the two characters were programmed. "Emergent Gameplay" is almost certainly gonna be a buzzword that people throw around without fully understanding what it means. I've done my own research (Aka google search a few sites) and even Im not sure I fully get what it means. Its gonna be super easy for people to say X or Y thing is or isnt emergent when it might have nothing to do with it.

[@Moqlnkn]

E Mergent Gaempley ~"Emergent gameplay is just when the game reacts to your decision?" If the game doesn't react to your decision, it's not a game. It's a movie, or a visual novel. I honestly have no idea what the term "emergent gameplay" means anymore, and because it doesn't have a definition, all the conversations around it are meaningless... like this sentence. ~"[Modern] games are designed in a way to be more accessible for people to see and understand what the moves are useful for. Not only are the games clearer in their intent, but they also tell you what 'this move' is used for. [This creates] a homogenized style or set of ideas that will be much more common. I don't think that's a bad thing." There are two progressions that absolutely need to be considered separately: What is, and what is happening. Just because everyone plays a certain way and says it's the best way to play doesn't mean that it is the best way to play. However, only the latter progression actually exists, and can be regulated, and is what the devs need to focus on, while also being aware of the former. There will always be a hurdle of mouth-breathers that play one way because it's easy and old-fashioned and consistent and explored, and there will always be people that break the meta and try to find brand new viable strategies, probably losing a lot in the learning process, but expanding the game. The more the game is explored, and the more variety of playstyles that are tested, the more *something* will start to happen. There are really only two possibilities for what can happen as a game gets explored, and one of them will fall under that "what is happening" progression. If the strategies people are using are indeed the strongest, then everyone will forever gravitate toward those strategies, and the game will become less interesting. If the strategies people are using aren't the only strongest strategies, then the game will instead grow to become more interesting. Note carefully the wording here, though - the devs can only directly change the "what is" progression, not the "what is happening" progression. Of course, their change of the "what is" will influence the "what is happening." If they buff a character, theoretically, more people will play that character. Now finally, what's the point of all this? Well, stretch that cycle infinitely. The players have an infinite amount of time with the game. They know the perfect strategies already. Everyone has "converged" and come up with their own best gameplan. The "what is happening" has become the "what is." What's that game like? Is it just a guessing game? No. Even after all this time, humans are still unpredictable. Humans make mistakes. Humans are different from each other. It's very possible for the endgame of a game to still be interesting, if it's difficult enough to be perfect at the game. This doesn't just mean difficult combos - this means quick reactions, and complicated webs of decisions. The meta isn't changing anymore, but the players can, in the moment. But we'll never get there. Maybe we can get there with Street Fighter I, or Divekick, or Footsies Rollback Edition, or Fantasy Strike, but most fighting games are far too complex to ever TRULY perfect within the game's lifespan. The "what is happening" will never become the "what is." Perhaps what's best for the game now isn't what's going to be the best for the game in ten years. Perhaps what's best for the game ten years from now isn't what's going to be best for the game in fifty years, if it still has players.

[@affegpus4195]

Aint the SF3 idea of "there is no right aswers" literaly the opposite of emergent gameplay?

[@Tacoman1013]

I like the Daily Show/Colbert Report side TV