Zuko vs Kylo Ren: How to Write a Redemption Arc

I've spoken a lot about villains on this channel, but never about villains who pull a face turn and redeem themselves. It's not an easy trope to pull off, so I figure the best way to talk about it is to compare a good example to a bad example. The good being Prince Zuko of Avatar: The Last Airbender fame, and the bad being Kylo Ren of the Star Wars Sequels

[@TheJadedJames]

The writers of Avatar had a plan, the writers of Disney Star Wars movies didn't

[@conyo985]

Yup. Disney sequel trilogy was just a pure cashgrab.

[@tamarrowe]

Thanks for this - it really helps clarify my thoughts on a redemption story that I'm trying to write.

[@asterash3389]

Glad to help. I do suggest watching A:TLA if you haven't already, because Zuko really is a perfect example of how to get it right.

[@NedJeffery]

This is really good content and criminally underrated.

[@NedJeffery]

I remember when The Force Awakens came out there was a huge backlash against Kylo. People really hated him. But I absolutely loved his character for that very reason. His petulant childish attitude really highlighted his underdeveloped moral character, as did his villainous finale. He was very hateable. Come The Last Jedi I was kinda just bored. But the whole "let the past die, kill it if you have to" gave me hope that they might go in an exciting and completely new direction. Beyond that, I cannot express the depth of my disappointment.

[@asterash3389]

Yeah, one of the reasons I picked Kylo to examine was because I did feel he had potential as a character, but it just kind of got squandered; I think in part because there was no concrete plan for him and I think Johnson and Abrams had quite different ideas about what to do with the character.

[@williamfinch9858]

@@asterash3389 Did you think Kuzco's redemption in The Emperor's New Groove was good?

[@TheJadedJames]

This kind of encapsulates what I think is empty about The Last Jedi, because having a character say “Let the past die” isn’t the same as giving your movie an original plot. TLJ is still caught in the repetitive rhythms of The Force Awakens, but it is bitter about it. I would have loved to see a more original movie, but TFA reproduced so much of A New Hope, that it kind of forced a sequel that would have to include plot points from Episode 5 and 6

[@EpicAndrew97]

Zuko was never a villain, he was lost and confused…but he eventually changed for the better

[@sailorenthusiast]

This video perfectly sums up why I love Zuko and despise Kylo. Zuko's redemption arc was great because his actions were informed by his character. Meanwhile, Kylo was just kinda dragged along by the whims of the plot.

[@ReySkywalker2]

That’s complete nonsense. Kylo’s actions were completely informed by his character and his redemption is perfect.

[@ZombieAndroid]

I got this in my recommended so I decided to watch it. You made some great points and you have a really unique way of articulating these points. I was surprised to see this only has 500 views. Great video, great points, great narration. Only thing is the animation is pretty rough. Otherwise great job!

[@pastasauce5005]

I love both and thought Adam Driver did a great job but Kylo Ren’s redemption was so poorly written it hurts

[@pastasauce5005]

Also I want to add that I think Kylo’s backstory is a little more complicated: he didn’t even want to be a Jedi he actually wanted to be a pilot like his father, but because he had to continue the legacy he was forced into this life with everyone already having high expectations for him, his parents were neglectful to him growing up, and Snoke was constantly in his mind trying to pull him to the dark side before he was even born. This stuff isn’t really addressed in the movies as well but is cannon and I think better illustrates why he turned

[@ReySkywalker2]

Sorry but no, Kylo’s redemption was perfect and well written.

[@jaieregilmore971]

@@ReySkywalker2 Not really Kylo redemption is just second fiddle compare to Zuko and Vader redemption his reasoning joining the dark side is weak compared to what Anakin/Vader been through but really Kylo is just a ungrateful brat not someone worth sympathy he killed his own father on purpose he either should had either stay a Jedi or stay a villain cause at this point he got nothing left to go. If I was Kylo there are so many paths to take besides going to the dark side and being a Jedi he could had been a fighter pilot or even cooler being a space pirate/bounty hunter that sounds fun and more freedom better than joining those bastards aka the dark side.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@jaieregilmore971 Wrong. Kylo’s redemption is far better than Vader’s. That’s a fact. Even ST haters agree to this.

[@jaieregilmore971]

@@ReySkywalker2 You are fooling yourself are you.

[@williamfinch9858]

I don't think you should compare Kylo to Zuko. Zuko is an antagonist, not a villain. He has villainous tendencies, but I doubt the showrunners intended the audience to see him as a villain. He was exiled for doing good, not evil.

[@6ixlxrd]

Zuko is very clearly a villain before his redemption arc begins. He burns entire villages to the ground, hurts people and sees entire families slaughtered all to please his father, hunts the Avatar to no end, betrays the one person who ever truly loved him...yet later grows to realize he was a villain, believes he deserves the hatred and distrust he initially got from Aang's group because of his past mistake of being a villain, and ultimately finds acceptance that helps him learn to grow as a person. He was exiled because he didn't want to do "evil" but then started doing "evil" because he was exiled. He had heroic tendencies, but those were only placed there to show that he's capable of redemption, as he was still irrefutably doing evil for a vast majority of the time. "The villain" is a character type. "The antagonist" is a plot role. Zuko is both the antagonist and a villain.

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@6ixlxrd Zuko is such an amazing character. Btw, when was the “sees entire families slaughtered all to please his father”? What are you thinking of.

[@frosted_glaceon5513]

@@anatoldenevers237 I mean, he did burn down Suki's village. You know, with the Kyoshi Warriors?

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@frosted_glaceon5513 Okay good point

[@taluca8474]

a thought just came to my mind, what if there's a redemption arc where the character tries so hard to be redeemed but fails miserably by either accident or because the big villain is a huge douchebag?

[@Denzel_Greene]

Good video, but there’s a bit of info that was missed. In TLJ, Kylo spells out his motivations and why he wants to tear down everything in his conversation with Rey...but he does it by framing it as if he’s talking about her. When Rey asks how could someone who has a loving family do what he’s done, Kylo seems confused because she should understand why because of they’re similarities. “Your parents threw you away like garbage. But you can’t stop needing them. Looking for them everywhere in Han Solo, then in Skywalker. It’s your greatest weakness. Let the past die, kill it if you have to.” He thought his parents feared him when they sent him away, and Luke feared what he might become. He felt *thrown away*. He thinks he’s a monster that was just born bad and can’t change and that feeling is reinforced when he is constantly being given up on. But he still craves guidance and belonging, he can’t stop needing those two things, so he followed in the footsteps of Vader and found a new home with Snoke and The First Order. Kylo operates on abandonment issues and will cut out any authority figure that looks like they’re going to discard him. It’s his greatest weakness. When Snoke looks like he’s going to do the same after he voices his disappointment in him, Kylo decides to take control rather than let himself be cast aside again. What draws him back to the light is him realizing that he isn’t some irredeemable monster when the last 2 people in his life who should want him dead for all he’s done keep giving him chances to change. But yeah, his arc isn’t as well put together as Zuko’s. I can fully admit that.

[@sarahtaylor4264]

I can see where your take is coming from. In fact, I think you have a more coherent and nuanced vision for his character than the writers ever did. My biggest issue with him was that they never really made it clear what his motivations were and how his past justified his choices in his mind aside from that one quote that never got explored beyond that scene. And the erratic back and forth between extremes seemed design to make him less sympathetic. If they had executed something akin to your own interpretation correctly, stuck to one vision from the beginning, and fleshed him out properly I think we would have gotten a much better character and story.

[@caderen5624]

In concept and broadstrokes, Ben Solo did have a pretty good redemption arc, but the overall execution was extremely flawed which is a shame, because the way you put it does show they had something good going on, but the writers were unable to see it so the actual films werent able to portray it properly

[@z0mbiiyawnzzz]

I mostly dislike Kylo because of his poor redemption arc. While a well-written villain redeems little by little, Kylo's redemption happens so suddenly. The whole Rise of Skywalker is a mess, everything's so chaotic, too many subplots overshadow the main plot. I honestly even forgot what exactly happened in this movie lol But, back to the discussion. I believe, like most people do, that Kylo's redemption arc makes no sense. I mean, at the beginning he's like "Yes Emperor give me everything", and then at the end he's like "Nooo Rey I love you I'm a changed man 🥺👉👈". Like wtf. But I gotta admit that he taught me one thing, how to not write a villain. Well, a good writing tip for my story indeed.

[@skoptook9321]

ugh you wouldn't understand the chemistry, she's the protagonist and that's a free card for any romance whatsoever

[@MinuteLeech2]

Kylo's redemption was just lazy. Copying Vader's to a tee. He even ends up dying saving the desert planet hero from the Emperor. JJ Abram was too intent on copy pasting the OT he added nothing to the saga and cheapened what was already there. Kylo isn't the only problem- Rey ends up being the offspring of a sith lord because hey- it happened to Luke. Poe turned out to be a drug smuggler turned ace rebel pilot- because hey Han was in the OT.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Erm, no, Kylo’s redemption doesn’t copy Vader’s at all. Kylo doesn’t save anyone from Palpatine. He brings Rey back to life. Vader didn’t do that. JJ never copied the OT, he makes parallels but gave new and unique stories and character arcs. Rey and Kylo are both incredible, complex and unique characters.

[@MinuteLeech2]

@@ReySkywalker2 Oh wow, you again. And liking your own comments. Nice.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@MinuteLeech2 Again? Never seen you before, kid. Also, no, guess people just agree with me, huh. Also - also, nice how you ignore my response.

[@MinuteLeech2]

​@@ReySkywalker2 This is a year old video with barely any comments. Your reply was there for less than a minute and had a like. And I can already see you have like six comments on this video. You liked your own comment. They're the most derivative and lazily written characters I've ever seen. JJ Abrams outright admitted he just rehashed the original movies in interviews. A Skywalker who was corrupted by Palpatine into wiping the jedi out, wearing a mask, turning to the Darkside, and changing his name before serving as #2 for the Empire before becoming obsessed with turning the desert planet hero evil and getting a redemption arc where he sacrifices himself to save that hero from the Emperor is "unique" /s. Its the most cookie-cutter shit ever. He's not even the first offspring of Han and Leia to turn evil and rehash Vader's story (see Jacen Solo legends) and even THAT was somehow more unique that this drivel. Sorry, its just a lot of overused SW tropes This is the same writers who just had to retcon Poe being a former spice smuggler and shoehorned in another Death Star and clone Palpatine so they can copy the originals for zero effort.himself to save that hero from the Emperor is "unique" /s. This is the same writers who just had to retcon Poe being a former spice smuggler and shoehorned in another Death Star and clone Palpatine so they can copy the originals for zehimself to save that hero from the Emperor is "unique" /s.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@MinuteLeech2 Lol, I just saw how long your shitty reply is and, yeah, I’m not gonna bother reading that shit hahahahah. You’re mad. Kylo is a great character with an amazing arc and redemption. Stay mad.

[@AndalusianPhilosopher]

I think Zuko's actions in crossroads of destiny are not excusable. Given the growth he went thru in season 2, and the fact that in avatar state Azula tricked and lied to him, Zuko should have by this time realized that his father is a terrible person, and that there is no honor. Remember that Zuko sent an assassin after Aang also. It would have been much more understanding if Zuko in season 1 would have chosen to go with Azula. In conclusion given how many times Azula bullied and lied to Zuko, Zuko would have developed an immunity to Azula manipulation by Crossroads of destiny. Having said that I think it shows just how difficult it is to change, and break free of your brainwashing. Takes a lot of work and humility.

[@IamnotJohnFord]

Kylo Ren's actions never left me with any emotional response. He was a standard villain, and then they tack on a redemption arc at the last second. I, and many others, did not buy what they were selling. Zuko shows his honor and morality from the beginning to the very end. He falters here and there because of the influence of his family and culture. As Toph said, "Considering his family and how he was raised, he could have turned out much worse." There were multiple occasions that Zuko was shown mercy, kindness, and loyalty from his enemies when his enemies had no reason to do anything but kill him or let him be killed. Plus, in many instances he travels around and sees the despair and suffering his people have caused. There are so many times that Zuko is shown taking it all in and contemplating what it all means. You can see the inner struggle. I'd say the same for Ren if those instances existed. For me, killing your own father in cold blood for no reason other than to prove you'd do it was the last straw. There was no coming back from that.

[@mollymcmurtrie8037]

My two favorite 😍 characters voiced by Dante Bosco are Jake Long and Zuko.

[@SimpyStarr]

1:41 SPINEL

[@PandoRem]

The first time we see Zuko interacting with his enemies, he's crashing into a village, scaring some people, mostly attacking people who attack him first, and then agreeing to leave without hurting anyone when Aang says he'll go with him peacefully when he does. Not good or excusable, but sets him up as "not as much of a jerk as he could have been." The first time we see Kylo Ren, he's slaughtering a village of people who are heavily coded as holocaust survivors. I actually didn't mind Kylo as a villain in TFA, he felt like he could have been an interesting exploration of how young people are indoctrinated into hate groups, and his childish self-importance and almost teenage-edgy worship of Vader actually fit well into that. But then the second film came around and the way that Rey immediately started opening up to him the moment he hinted that he might have experienced a hardship in his past felt insultingly lazy. Like they only tacked it on because some vocal viewers of TFA liked Reylo. I couldn't watch the third film because of that. It's frustrating because I DO think that there are interesting questions that could be brought up in the redemption arc of a character who was indoctrinated into a hate group and did terrible things there... Questions you couldn't necessarily raise with Finn because he was more uncomplicatedly a victim, where with Kylo Ren there could have been argument for how much of a victim of indoctrination and grooming he was, and how much of that victimhood mattered when it comes to the awful things he did because of that. While my preferred story for the series would be for Finn to actually remain a main character and get the character arc he deserved and for them to use Kylo as a villainous foil to both Finn and Rey, I can admit that there COULD have been a fascinating, difficult story there. It's just not the one we got.

[@jaieregilmore971]

Funny thing is KYLO IS 30 YEAR OLD.

[@lenrussell2424]

I really like Zuko and I hate Kylo Ren. Because of my background knowledge on force mind melds and mind tricks, Kylo's scene with Poe read to me as mind rape, and his first scene with Rey as an attempted mind rape which she successfully fights off. I could never seem him as redeemable from that point on. Sorry. I'm sure if they built it up better I could have come rethink how I initially interpreted those two scenes, but as the story stands now I read it as Kylo essentially followed up attempted mind rape with stalking. I had no idea why/how Rey puts up with him in any capacity. Clearly, the writers/creators either didn't intend that reading or didn't follow through on it, but it still makes it hard for me to sympathize with Kylo or connect with Rey as a character.

[@clareshaughnessy2745]

Ooh, I’m dying to ask what your background is

[@jaieregilmore971]

Really Kylo is technically a prince and a villain should raise his standards in women then some half bake character such as Rey.

[@walnut6684]

And the fact that kylo had the most character development in star wars sequel trilogy is just, sad.

[@channelman4321]

Please someone send this video to EFAP.

[@dustinmaxwell259]

It all comes down to three different directors wanting three different male characters to be the lmale lead. JJ was gunning for Finn. Both he and George were working on a story in which "Skyler", aka Finn, was to be Rey's co-star. Then along comes Rian John who was totally wanking to Kylo Ren. He tried to retcon everything so that Kylo wasn't nearly as evil as JJ made him out to be. Did JJ say that Kylo killed at those students at Luke's academy? Well, Rian made it so that only ONE student died..But only because he leapt onto Kylo's lightsaber, while Kylo cried and begged him not to do it. That's just how cringey Rian's attempt at retconning Kylo's story got. Then, Trevor wanted Poe to be Rey's co-star. But Kathleen Kennedy was all onboard team Rian Johnson, so she ended firing Trevor when he acted against Rian's vision.

[@kaosfan1182]

I think Kylo shouldn't have redeemed. If he remained a villain, he could've been an amazing love-to-hate villain. As he is, while he's not awful, he is really disappointing.

[@jaieregilmore971]

13:31 she looks like a doll.

[@jaieregilmore971]

Honestly if I was Kylo I wouldn’t join dark side considering Anakin/Vader story is something should be avoided if they going do a redemption it got to be something else besides a dark side turning to the light maybe he could had face some type of trauma that make him abandoned the Jedi way make him lose his memories and become a space pirate/bounty hunter caring nothing but himself,money,addictive to women and drugs to block out the nightmares but actually it was his memories of traumatic events coming back to him so Kylo story be similar to Cade Skywalker from the legacy comic to overcome his issues and right his wrongs as a space pirate by becoming a Jedi once again.

[@fuckalldisneyremakesorigin5560]

Even Gru and Megamind have a better redemption than Kylo Renn, let alone Zuko.

[@staraptorflock3661]

Even though I agree that Zuko is way better written character Generation Tech makes a video that gives more context to Kylo's fall to the dark side outside the movies kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4qnlJKCmcuVb8k

[@ZenoDLC]

Keyword : Outside the movies

[@anatoldenevers237]

@@ZenoDLC Yeah, you shouldn’t be required to read outside material to fully appreciate a characters arc in a movie trilogy.

[@mollymcmurtrie8037]

I love ❤️ Zuko. I hate Klyo Ren.

[@monicaaboites5053]

Personally, I hate both, Kylo and Rey because they are lazzy and bad written. But Kylo Ren is the one who I dislike most. Because it was notorious that the true intention behind Kylo was being a darker version of Vader, at the moment, when he killed his father it should have been the point of no return, but what Rian Johnsson did? Make that Rey start to feel sorry for him, why she would do that? Kylo Ren, killed Han (one person that she seen as her father figure) after, he tried to torture her and tried to kill her friend, why suddnely, she would start to feel sorry for someone like him? This was so out of character and only proves that Rian Johnsson was not interested to follow the previous movie which he likes or not, he had to continue with the previous ideas. So in order to redeem Kylo not only they prejudiced his character but also Rey's, and that's why I can't consider that Kylo was the only "good" character from this trilogy when he is bad written as well as Rey. The only difference between the two is that Kylo is not broken as Rey.

[@ultron374]

The new Star Wars/ Disney Wars makes nosense what so ever. He has no redemption arc, no good back story, charackters have no charackter development. Dissapointment