ZWIFT'S NEW CATEGORY SYSTEM IS A SANDBAGGERS PARADISE!

[@DomestiqueKoch]

This saterday had a race and pushed my best ever. 3.4 w/kg in cat C. Got 11th. Others pushing 3.7 in C! Insane

[@notpogi]

That seems absolutely crazy high for the cat C winner! Well done on your best wkg - gotta be pleased with 3.4wkg? Hopefully this type of thing in the future won’t happen due to the winners getting bumped up a category 👍🏻

[@lb3764]

Hey Ollie , I came in 7th place in this race , just behind you. My experience with the new category system is the same - it’s for sure still testing. The old cat C is normally the right one for me (older than 45 years - between 85 and 90 kg … so no extraordinary things to expect 😅), however with the new system I find myself surrounded by much stronger riders and get dropped at every incline… But I have to admit - this happens in the real world, too 😉 I am not sure which power metrics are used for the „score system“ … coming from rowing sport I can push quite hard for 30 and 600 secs and to my impression this overestimates my power system for a whole race and in the long run But luckily, it’s still fun for me as long as I find riders like you in a race where I do not get dropped too hard 😊 PS: and very strong last sprint of you at the last incline 💪

[@notpogi]

Hey, nice racing together 👍🏻 you did amazing to come back up box hill, it was an enjoyable race 😀 I vary between category B and C depending on the time of the year/ how fit I am - it definitely is an interesting time seeing what Zwift will do with the categories as there were quite a few strong riders in our race 👍🏻 I’m definitely up for making the racing as realistic as possible! Hope to see you again in another race soon!

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

The thing that this ststem is supposed to address is that there are people in the C category who really should be in A but they "sandbag" to stay in A. The thing rhis system will do is to move people into an appropriate level. The issue is where to set the levels so the sandbaggers get pushed up to a higher level. And some riders were hiding for the Summer and it will take a few weeks to get them moved out of the lower level category rides to the higher ones.

[@notpogi]

I do agree that the system in principle is a good one and it should have a positive effect in making Zwift racing fairer going forward 👍🏻 The summer riders thing is always an issue every year - I just hope Zwift make the metrics for winning a race or placing highly enough to bump people to the right category quicker than the current process, I’m very hopeful though 🤞🏻

[@JDirom]

It will take some time for them to get the system worked out. As a mid-c I am racing mostly B's, and much like you race it becomes very apparent on the climbs. Hopefully gets better over time.

[@notpogi]

I’m glad they’re testing the system before a full rollout and I’m really hopeful it’ll be good once finalised. I’m just surprised at the wide variance of riders in some of the scoring categories at the moment, fingers crossed it’ll get sorted 👍🏻

[@AndrewBrown-em3ti]

Hey Ollie, glad to hear and see that the coaching is going well. I had a carbon copy experience on Wednesday evening. Same race, probably same lower end category but with 8 participants. The start was really punchy, lots of high power and I was a few seconds off the first three riders before we even got to Box Hill. I got obliterated up the climb and finished 4th with 3.2w/kg average. First place was 3.7 and third was 4.3w/kg. I checked Zwift Power and both were B cat who hadn’t raced on Zwift since May. Think you are right, lots of big units coming back from outdoor racing and their ZR score is way off. I’m still enjoying the new system, think it’s going to take several more months of tweaking and will probably never be perfect for everyone.

[@notpogi]

Hi Andrew, hope you’re doing well 👍🏻 I’m really happy with the training so far, I just need to keep it up! It’s interesting to hear you had a similar experience, I was thinking it’d be good to get some sort of update from Zwift (something like an email newsletter) on how things like the new racing score and hub are coming along. I’m positive this will be great going forward, they just seem so tough to race at the moment 👍🏻

[@AndrewBrown-em3ti]

@@notpogi There was a poll on Zwift Insider a few weeks ago asking for feedback. The majority of respondents felt that ZRacing score was a positive move. Looking at user feedback on the clubs page I think there are definitely some wrinkles to iron out and I think that it will be almost impossible to create a system that every racer thinks is fair. I rode the rooftop rendezvous race in old C cat and it was actually a bit of an unpleasant shock, had forgotten how crazy strong some top end C riders are. Hopefully Zwift HQ will give some sort of update soon or will start iterating the system based on a few months of data and user feedback.

[@notpogi]

I do think it’ll be decent when fully rolled out and you’re right in saying that’s it’s pretty impossible for Zwift to please everyone! C cat is still pretty hard, I think it’ll take until at least October to settle down 👍🏻

[@craig3141]

Nice strong climb Ollie. I like the new scoring as I’ve spent the last year near back of B getting dropped in every race. At least now every race feels like a lottery- anything can happen. It’s a shame when there are v strong riders in the group but I guess that’s still a good lesson in learning when to chase or let go, and anyway will probably become less common as scores settle. I’m about 450 so hope to bump into you one day!

[@notpogi]

Thanks Craig much appreciated mate 👍🏻 I also like the way Zwift has in principle set this up and it’s definitely a lottery in these races! I was caught off guard by the stronger late joiners but in hindsight it was a good little challenge anyway! Be great to race together, add me on the companion app if you like, I normally try and race Thursday evenings at the moment 👍🏻

[@es1ven71]

I think this system is great because category were based only by 5min and 20min power, which lot of people abused to stay within the range of their targeted category. For example, if you can do 3,7wkg for 20min, but there is hill in race which takes 12-14min you could smash it in C cat at higher wkg, distance all true C riders and then back off with big gap and still be in that 20min range to stay in C, with this score you can´t really do that, because it take your 30s and 10min power into acount... ofc it is not perfect system, but it will get better with time, after people will do few races or workouts where they unintentionally put good power on those key segments, their score will ramp up and they won´t be able to join those events. For example I started riding back on zwift 10days ago, did 1.ride got around 250score, then I did Alpe at 3,5wkg and it put me in B, but my score stayed around 300, because I didn´t do any explosive interval yet... after I did zwift academy workout(30s and 15min fullgass efort), it instantly put me at 550 and I can say, after trying zwift lab crit race (525-650), even tho there were 2Cs, 11Bs and 1A+, that race was pretty competitive and everyone was at similar level. Best solution would be to somehow combine those 2 classifications so people that are C-400 wont race someone who is C-700, but neither B-400, because since I tried to attack with 1,5km to go and got caught by them 300m before finish, I got bumped down to 467 where I will most likely go against C riders which I could most likely attack from longer distance and stay away as it happend with few Bs in your race...

[@notpogi]

That’s a very interesting take on the new category system! I completely agree that it will be the way forward and I’m hopeful that Zwift will do the necessary tweaking to make it even better! I didn’t know Zwift were updating the score when achieving power PB’s in non racing score races (ie workouts) so that’s good to hear because it’ll make the whole thing even fairer in my opinion and so much better than what we currently have! 👍🏻

[@shawneggers4484]

I agree. I’ve been riding past few races as swift racing score categories and I feel there are much stronger riders than what I’m used to seeing…..

[@notpogi]

Yes it’s a bit hit and miss when it comes to these types of races at the moment- hopefully by mid-September the categorisation should have had a chance to sort itself out 👍🏻

[@daviddanser8011]

@@notpogiI think it is logical that it starts out like this. People will move to their actual racing score over time. I started at 280 and I am 600 now, I was winning my first two races but now it seems fine for me.

[@benfinesilver2250]

People that haven’t raced much can have much higher recorded power figures, but their score is lower due to less data points. For A it works.

[@notpogi]

I think the more Zwift test it hopefully the better it’ll get! I’m hopeful by winter time it’ll be in a good place 👍🏻

[@headfullofsnow2001]

When you say it’s a low end race, it’s only the lower end of the higher race score categories.

[@headfullofsnow2001]

Solid effort though! Had my only podiums using the race score cat, in races that were a mix of B & C cat riders. I’m cat B but would usually dropped from the lead pack in a B only race. There definitely a few strong riders that haven’t raced in a while so there score is low popping up in these race score races

[@notpogi]

Thanks very much 👍🏻 I think in principle it’s a great way of categorising racing and once tweaked will be much better than the normal a-d categories! I completely agree that it’s the stronger riders that haven’t raced in a while making these rides harder 👍🏻

[@ZwiftingWithGranny]

That was a strong ride Ollie. Yes, the key is to keep in mind that these are all tests. They will probably lower my racing score from a 2 to 1😂

[@notpogi]

Thanks Linda, hope you’re keeping well 😊 Yes you’re right and I’m glad they’ve done it this way first rather than just a full scale rollout! I did have a look at your score - I think they’re underestimating you!

[@fraserp2377]

Great power up box hill! It's such a hard effort it caught me out. That downgrade is wild not seen that before. I have seen B cat riders in my racing score cat which is the lowest 0 - 300. Checking their stats i can see they have almost no sprint so i guess that 10 second power number weighs heavily.

[@notpogi]

Thanks very much, I definitely wouldn’t have gone so hard at the start if I’d know the group in front were that strong! It’s really interesting to see B riders in the 0-300 category, you’re right about the sprint power impacting the overall score 👍🏻

[@fraserp2377]

​​@@notpogi sometimes you need that innocence to make a really hard effort. Full of f bombs at the time but you can be secretly happy after the fact.. but not admit it to yourself 😅

[@tonesgaming1012]

I race C grade. My racing score is 502 and majority of the time im in zone 1 and 2. I can gap c grade easily on a climb. And take wins. My ftp is 4w/kg. So definitely sandbagging 😅 but zwift put me under racing score 520 so i guess ill just have to keep on winning races in c grade to be promoted to B

[@notpogi]

Haha sounds like you’re a very strong rider! I guess at least with the new system it’ll keep increasing you’re score and you’ll get a competitive race soon 👍🏻

[@colinforester6844Niloc]

I think there will never be the perfect category system the only way one would would work if everyone was honest and regulated themselves in to the best category they could race Which unfortunately will never happen and some people feel the need to win a race by any means possible Mate I just race now have fun and if I have pushed myself to my max then that’s a win for me Even if I did finish 15th out of 16 😂 also all the summertime riders will be back soon super strong and riding cat C 😂 Great vid mate and top race as normal keep pushing on with the training

[@notpogi]

Thanks mate! 👍🏻 yeah you’re definitely right, not sure there will ever be the perfect system - at least we’re honest when racing and still are able to have fun! Jake sent a pic the other day of you and him on an outdoor ride - looked good mate 👍🏻 Be lovely to have an IRL ride one day with you chaps 😀

[@colinforester6844Niloc]

@@notpogi yeah we should do it there is a few of us in snow who are 50 ish soon 😂 maybe next year and we are thinking about getting together for a ride sort you should jump on that would be great

[@notpogi]

That would be lovely mate! Can’t believe you’re 50ish soon! 👍🏻

[@colinforester6844Niloc]

@@notpogi I’ll keep you in the loop Ollie it might be near you so will see

[@RuffRides]

I do have my suspicions that it won't change anything long term, but you've not explained at all as to why you think it's a" sandbaggers paradise. " ???

[@notpogi]

I really hope it does change long term but you could very well be right! I guess I meant riders that haven’t been online in ages but still being fit, then getting put in low categories and then being downgraded for winning the race!

[@ImGlossy63]

Yeah I’m with ya, I’ve done 2 of these and each time it was full of B racers and I’m just an average C. So just not much fun as you just end up getting dropped by stronger riders.

[@notpogi]

I like the concept but it does seem a lot of the initial categorisation is wrong making it not much fun! I hope Zwift has a look at this and tweaks it 👍🏻

[@ImGlossy63]

@@notpogi I totally agree. I looked at this mornings prime time Stage 5 race. In my category there were 17 signed up, there was 1 C, 2 A and 14 B racers. As a C racer I think my top 20 min is 3.5, 16 of the 17 were higher then mine and both A racers were 4.7 and 4.5. I would have had zero chance in this even though that is where they slotted me. 😢👎

[@brianwhite9]

I hope that people can remove the thought of "A, B, C, D" rider when i comes to race score. This will eventually put people in right grouping. If you look at the points score results the next the point increase/decrease changes I do not at all think it is a sandbagger paradise. If you do well, you move up. With this being the summer and a lot of people being outside Zwift does not have enough data to put them in the correct race score grouping.

[@notpogi]

I’m really hopeful that Zwift will give the results part of the racing score a higher weighting so to move those that do keep winning races. I was surprised to see the winner’s score downgraded after this race, seemed a bit counterintuitive. I think the sooner we move to this system the better so we can stop relating back to the older a-d categories like you say 👍🏻

[@brianwhite9]

@@notpogi I know from my events the points are updated overnight. I saw guys who gained points for finishing last change to losing points. Once it is available in more events and people return to Zwift I feel it will be competitive. Will you podium every race no, but they should be competitive races.

[@danielkent7136]

The system is good..its based on 30 second and 10minute watts So im ranked at 550. Im racing a b and c cat riders and iys more lifelike. Flat routes because im heavy i can compete. Hills im left behind just like outdoor riding . I think a lot of poeple who arent keen are the riders who are used to winning a lot in old system

[@notpogi]

Yeah makes sense mate, just not sure why the person that won this one got demoted, seems a bit strange. I’m all up for the new system though - think it’ll be really good in the long run 👍🏻

[@danielkent7136]

@@notpogi I am sure I read somewhere that scores are only accurately amended the day after a race. I may be wrong

[@RhysSmith123]

I’m a high end C but my race score is 538 😮 so I’m in races against high Bs and As and it’s just rubbish as on the flat I can just about hold a wheel but even the slightest incline and I’m dropped like a stone 😢. Really hope this is figured out before full launch

[@notpogi]

That’s quite a high score, hopefully they’ll have a look at it before a full release! It may take a couple of races to balance out but I do feel your pain! 👍🏻

[@wilsistermans1118]

This evening i tried a similar race as a cat D rider. I can do about 2.5 w/kg for half an hour, but all other riders where doing 4 to 6 w/kg (A riders) right from the beginning. So after a few hundred meters I rode alone. This is not fun and I quit the race and will not participate in any races with the new scoring system again.

[@frankbuchsel293]

all races in zwift start hard for a minute or two, 4wkg for the first 2km is nothing unusual in D or C races as well

[@notpogi]

That doesn’t sound like much fun at all, hopefully Zwift will tweak the system and all those pushing out crazy power will be moved up a category - I share your annoyance though. The start of Zwift races are always a bit on the fast side… I’d like a neutral zone so we’re at least rolling before it kicks off!

[@Stevenafoe]

Thats a pity, will. I had a same experience last thursday (older low c, against young b’s). Some started hard, but slowed down after few minutes. Thats normal behaviour in zwift races. The system needs time to get it’s act together, it should be better after a while (i hope). Look for the more crit alike races, less climbing, shorter . Try a few, don’t give up.

[@lukevirtualgameruk3523]

I'm a B cat and will be dropping down for sure as I've stopped racing as I'm only using it for fitness zone 2 3 and more into running saying that I can tell you half of the riders on zwift should be pros by the speeds they hit. Also racing too much is dangerous I know people who's had serious health problems from zwift so stay safe guys. Good luck out there racing.

[@notpogi]

Zwift is an excellent training platform and you’re right, people should definitely know their limits and not overdo it 👍🏻

[@tommybennett3764]

A lot of people are still riding outdoor, and not riding on zwift so don't have an accurate racing score

[@notpogi]

Good point, I’m hopeful that Zwift will have the system in more of a finalised position come peak season 👍🏻

[@MrLootshoot]

WTF I've just been moved to B Cat! 😵FTP 2.96 w/kg .....😕

[@notpogi]

Whatttt!!!! 😳😱 that seems strange… I’ll see you there 👍🏻

[@AndrewG99]

Avg HR of 181 for the winner? What??

[@notpogi]

Yeah that’s absolutely crazy!! Didn’t even notice that, good spot

[@bitminerbob6731]

My zwift racing score is 689. I suppose that's mid B grade? Or if that's 689/1000 maybe they think that's C grade? I don't really understand it to be honest. I've not done any races that are sorted by the new racing score system. I mainly enter A grade for flat courses and B grade for the rest.

[@notpogi]

I’m not sure how the current categories even fit into the new scoring system, it seems to be a bit all over the place which is strange. I thought as a minimum a ‘b’ rider there should be a minimum racing score category at the outset but it seems not! You sound like a strong rider 👍🏻💪🏻 big watts I’m guessing if entering A grade flat races? Also fair play for going in the category above 👍🏻

[@zipp2371]

I would prefer it if there was just one category. I'm not a great cyclist but Im not interested in how i compare to other not great cyclists. I prefer to get dropped by an A then win from a D.. But I guess thats the inclusive everyone should be a winner view of Zwift...

[@notpogi]

That’s a very interesting take, I do like a race win but if it’s a win in category C then really I’m still only best of the third group 👍🏻

[@michael1]

If you just win races until eventually you're in a category you don't win any races that would make no sense to have categories.. I mean if that's how you think it should work then why not just ride A from the start and lose every race, unless you get good enough to win. Because you're effectively saying people shouldn't exist who, say, ride in D and win D races regularly because you're saying, if they do, they have to go into C and either improve or lose every race thereafter. But then what exactly is the category of D if no one can win it, it can only be the set of people who can't win a D category race. And similarly C is the set of people who don't win C category races. Surely at that point you may as well all be the set of people who don't win A category races and you don't need categories. Fundamentally the vast majority are just going to have to cope with losing. That's why 1 category would work. You lose the same as if you ride in C. The categories serve only to delude some of the losers they won. "I won C" - well no you lost. "But I like the feeling that the category system removed all the people faster than me so I could kid myself I won" Ok then why not just have 1 category races and then create a set of filters you can filter the results by whatever you like until you're in first place. Be creative you could have filters by job, age, height, whether your first name begins with P, weight, w/kg, favourite pet. Whatever, be imaginative. Some selection of those filters should make anyone who wants to be a winner appear at the top of the list. You can select the filters and say "I came 365th/500 in the race but I won if you select people age 25-35 with brown hair whose first initial is in the first half of the alphabet and they own a Giant bicycle - and then the crowd go wild. Whereas someone else who came 265th / 500 can select "women over 5'8" tall who work in the fashion industry" to "win" that category. That way everyone can enjoy winning and that's pretty much all category B, C and D races are anyway and most of the butthurt is about people who want to "win" C but they think the actual winner shouldn't be there - well, find something different between you and him and filter it out. He has different coloured eyes, a red T-shirt, whatever, 2 mouse clicks and you win, but he wins too...and so do all the others including whoever it is who went over the line first.

[@notpogi]

Some very interesting points here 👍🏻 I do like the filter idea with infinite selections, I’d definitely choose age 41, brown hair, dog lover, Bianchi bike and pretty tired most of the time lol 😂 I still wouldn’t win probably! It’s a bit like golf in a way with the handicap system, winning a golf tournament playing off 17 and beating people that play off scratch seems weird but it happens. As a category C/B I know I’m not as good as those in A but I know if I were to train all day everyday I’m never getting to A as I’m not genetically able to. To compete with people with the similar genetics is ok for me with the caveat I know I’m not a pro rider because let’s face it, put a category A against a pro same thing will happen 👍🏻

[@Daniel-iz7kc]

That's a slow B race if so.

[@notpogi]

It wasn’t a particularly busy race which may have impacted the overall time. It was pretty calm up until the climb 👍🏻

[@Daniel-iz7kc]

@@notpogi same with the race I had in B. I got dropped doing 7:06 up box hill

[@notpogi]

That’s very quick up box to get dropped! Sounds horrific!

[@Daniel-iz7kc]

@@notpogi Very standard in B.

[@skoot859]

174 bpm is insanely high…?? Oh dear…

[@notpogi]

Oh dear lol! I should have added - high for me as a 41 year old, great call-out 👍🏻

[@skoot859]

@@notpogi You had me second guessing everything haha considering I can still get over 200 as a 35 year old…

[@notpogi]

That’s very impressive for 35 👍🏻 strong heart mate, proper athlete 👍🏻

[@lukevirtualgameruk3523]

@@skoot859 Dangerous mate doing it too much, Each to there owe tho.

[@MS-un9zq]

Power drill...😂

[@pauldyerdyer2731]

Unfortunately Zwift is full of sandbaggers and Zwift won't do anything!

[@notpogi]

I hear that mate! Bit of a shame really for the ones like us - hopefully Zwift scoring will help a bit but the finished article is a bit of a way off I reckon 👍🏻

[@martinchambers1800]

Don't like go elsewhere

[@notpogi]

I do like

[@tonycrabtree3416]

It’s an online game. 😂😂😂 The game is terrible at pack dynamics. Acceleration model is a joke.

[@notpogi]

I think Zwift have tried to improve pack dynamics but it’s definitely not perfect!

[@sigfreed11]

IndieVelo is far and away the best racing physics in indoor cycling - no competition

[@aerowilly65]

Totally agree. Some of the breakaways in the races just get away from you in the most unrealistic way . Unless you’re mid pack when the break starts ,even if you are going 7 or 8 w/kg to catch them,you won’t get back on. It’s total garbage.

[@ffwdzwift4541]

Climb physics are still trash too. 100kg riders speeding up 10% climbs like it´s a sprint.

[@Omeiden]

zwift is mega outdated

[@notpogi]

I think they sometimes struggle with the original game engine that’s been around for a little while!