I just bought it!

This is why we need independent media! The corporate mainstream and the influencer class is all about narrative shaping and clicks; they will never give us the REAL story. Thank you for going out and covering without any other agenda that to show the range of perspectives. I will be sure to share this with as many people as I can.

As a socialist perhaps I can give you a little historical background about the weirder elements of this protest. The organizer ANSWER is a tankie organization that splintered from one of the many tankie organizations that have existed over the past century (tankie organizations are basically cults and all have like 20 members tops). The reason they are able to perpetuate themselves is that their continued existence has led them to be really good at getting protest permits and being familiar with the bureaucratic process of achieving these permits, often lead protests. While these groups see these protests as an opportunity to proselytize they have never been able to convince Americans of any kind of the virtues of the soviet union (wonder why!!!), they have continued this failed tactic for years. Most people who attend these protests don't know that and simply align with a cause they care about, but thats why there is such a mismatch between the cringy presenters defending Venezuela (Against the overwhelming wishes of people who live there), and platforming gutter trash like Linda Sarsour and the normal people actually protesting. I'm pretty sure that's where the flag burners came from or PSL (another tankie splinter group from another splinter group from another splinter group etc.), as even at fairly radical left protests and events I have never found a large constituency for tankie nonsense. This split however reflects an institutional problem for the left, the broad appeal of its policies and democratic ambitions being hampered by an activist class more interested in NGO money or being a weird insular cult than actually serving the people they seek to help.

Great Stuff!

This was good. It looks like there's a good mix of people, and as usual, it seems the older generation is more sensible at these events. All I ever seem to encounter online is people on the left advocating for vlnce and Hamas. It seems to be a prevailing narrative about 70% of the time. There is a larger issue on the left (both in and outside of I/P) of accepting vilnce against people as a necessity and then trying to figure out who is the worthy opposition to run at with pitchforks. So there isn't an unequivocal denial of vlnce, it's a matter of deciding who deserves to be on the receiving end. That's a norm I find troubling, and it's rapidly being embraced as part of left-wing political framework. There's been a shift among Marxists over the last 15 years, and in my experience, in prior movements they were the ones advocating against the more "lumpen" and anarchist elements, like black bloc tactics...so I'm not sure how we take it a step further by supporting Islamist groups like Hamas and equating vlnce against civilians with the resistance against a state. Because they're preoccupied with American imperialism, they can be pretty limited or short sighted in their critiques of all the Islamists that were aligned with Russian influence against the US. Anyone worth their salt on this should be advocating for peace and long-term solutions, not martyrs on behalf of a resistance.

Thank you for taking time to do this. The debate - like most non-expert debates - was really weak. 3 people were didactic pretend experts while you were trying to be honest but obviously learning your brief.The person who is careful and honest in these food fights always starts out at a disadvantage. I applaud you for extending that attitude to this careful analysis of the debate. Many will not appreciate the effort you've made but You've produced a product that is far more useful than 500 of these debates. So thank you.

Are you stupid or what? Every Jewish fighter fought against Axis Powers, whilst Arabs truly fought on the side of Nazis , there were even special Arab SS units

Do a real debate with Destiny I know he would do it if you said you would do it. The only question is are you willing to stand up for your believes against someone who is well read on the topic and knows what he is talking. Or will you hide behind some tweets and delete this comment?!? by the way I have a picture of me commenting this so if you delete it it just shows how little you have actually to say for the Palestinians!!

So Jake thinks a one state solution is best for Israel-Palestine yet thinks a national divorce is best for America!?

Also, Smotrich in an interview (I think in 2015) called Hamas "an asset" for that reason.

Are we sure they weren't clapping, because it was a good point to bring up?

Debate destiny

have a live discussion with Destiny. He will not ad hom you or act childishly/aggressively if you treat the conversation or debate with respect, in other words he will match your energy, and considering you're so invested in the subject as to shed tears over it, you should really want to have a conversation or debate about it. I couldn't imagine being so invested in something, and yet be unwilling to speak about it with someone who disagrees. Destiny is also correct about the format, in that you should be capable and confident of your ability to defend yourself in a live conversation if you truly believe that you are knowledgeable in a subject.

you promote the aggressor's side that causes all the loss of life

Jack Klein is the type of person to show up to a random person's funeral and pretend to share in their grief. If you're this emotionally invested, crying for people halfway across the world for people you don't even know, it's obvious grifting.

What an awful video and insane amounts of post debate cope from Jake Klein ngl Also that disgusting crocodile tears segment really irked me badly. Shame.

I wonder if you wept for Israeli kids on Oct 7 with the same sincerity of 1:49:22

Crocodile tears LMAO

Were you planning on actually posting the sources or should we just take your word for it that they exist. What a fail.

So, Jake, if the IDF said ‘we love death’ you would be totally cool separating that from all of Israel? What an idiot

Yassar Arafat.

this is an absolutely embarrassing demonstration that jake had no clue what he was supposed to be debating. you really recorded a 5 hour treppenwitz.

9:50 In "Genocide vs. Ethnic Cleansing," you are incorrect in your interpretation of the definition of genocide that it is a requirement of intending to destroy the whole group. Please read Article II carefully. "...in whole or in part."

51:45 you at the very least mislead by omission. You revised down hamas support by at least 30% points in gaza. You could have sourced it but then did not. I disagree with pretty much everything you say but this was egregious when trying to come at this in “good” faith

Around 1 hour in, Jake argues against centralised power by saying smaller organised governments are mostly peaceful with eachother even though there isn't a centralised structure binding them to peace. But he seems to leave out the importance of competition in the landscape. If one power starts organising centrally to be orders of magnitude larger than the smaller powers, what is there to dissuade the larger organisation from conquering and/or colonising these smaller organisations if they stand no chance in war and the participants in the larger organisation get the short term gain of the spoils of war?

If you would like to propound about how the object of your worship, Destiny, the divine incarnation of the sun, DESTROYED this video WITH LOGIC AND FACTS, leave a 10 page essay in the comments below :).

No wonder Video Essayists hate debate. When they aren't in their little soy lab with total control of the narrative and comment section they fall apart

It’s so crazy how after the debate you can make a five hour video essay but in the debate itself you stumble endlessly. Also, as others have pointed out, your sourcing is pretty weak. To be expected of any leftist historical narratives, I guess.

Just going to ignore the lowered revised numbers? I mean its the first thing that comes up on google when you search it.

I won't go into rebutting a 5 hour video in a youtube comment cause that wouldn't make sense :) I will just point out that the debate was whether this is a Just war or not. When Konstantine asked you what should Israel have done ? You said more precise attacks etc. So you basically admit that Israel had to react and respond, so EVEN IN YOUR OWN OPINION that war is justified, your argument is just about how the war is being conducted. So you basically admitted to losing the debate right there... Your "knowledge" of history is so biased and one sided even Palestinian in Israel will recognize this and realize that you're doing more damage to them than helping them...

1:33:51 It doesn't matter who built the underground bunker at Al Shifa (Ehud Barak said in your own source that Israeli contractors helped Gazans build the bunker to add more space for the hospital to function), if Hamas uses it for military purposes that's on Hamas for choosing to carry out military operations directly underneath a civilian hospital. Also, a 2015 Amnesty International report claims they used the hospital grounds to interrogate and torture Gazans suspected of cooperating with Israel, so it's really not that hard to believe that they would use the underground hospital space for military activity, let alone connect it to their already extensive underground tunnel network.

1:25:54 That is some super weak audience clapping (watch the original, it's barely noticeable, see 22:05 in original debate video). Also, I'm pretty sure that the few people clapping are doing so in support of Briahna's point, not in support of dead doctors in Gaza. Yeah, based on the clapping alone the audience was more on the pro-Israeli side, but you both got more audience applause after making points than that one instance (see 9:18 in the original debate video).

It's absolutely insane to me how you say you're against "woke", "identity politics", and "victim narratives" and then wholeheartedly and steadfastly endulge in all of these to insane degrees when it comes to Palestinians lmfao

You should debate destiny 😂

Using opinion pieces and social media posts as sources is an interesting choice considering the stated goal...

If responding to a terrorist organization invading your country, ruthlessly and indiscriminately murdering 1200 innocent civilians (and gleefully broadcasting it for all the world to see), stealing 250 of your citizens and dragging them back into their country causes you to believe what is happening is not a just war I would love to hear what "just" is. I have no love for the Israeli government but I don't understand how people just gloss over the fact that all of these people are dead because of...wait for it...Hamas. The "government" of Gaza caused the inciting incident for all their people's suffering and had no plan beyond Oct 7th. They do not care about their civilian population because more dead Gazans is a boon to them. They have hundreds of miles of tunnels they could allow their civilians to shelter in and they deny them entry. They steal aid from them to give to their fighters. They do, despite apparent popular belief, operate in civilian areas. The last area for refugees in all of Gaza is Rafah and where to they choose to fire rockets at Tel Aviv from? Rafah. There is a 0% chance they didn't know that this would be the Israeli response and they did absolutely nothing to prepare for it because they don't care. What they did on Oct 7 was ostensibly a suicide bombing but in this case, the bomber was the entirety of Gaza. Criticism and distrust of Israel is important. Criticism of any government is important. Which is why I don't understand why Hamas seems to skate by criticism from people who claim they are well meaning and care about social justice.

The rulers of Israel owns the slogan the river to the sea . This slogan was Jewish before the first member of Hamas was born. The people of Hamas are stealing the slogan from the party of the prime minister of Israel. Hamas should be ashamed for stealing that slogan.

Zionists are impossible! And listening to them is just a waste of time.

You don't believe in God So you a fool

International law does not allow for a ratio kill of combatants to civilians, no such ratio exists, for good reason, this is a dangerous precedence, it will allow governments to massacre civilians. International law unequivocally states areas where civilians have been identified to be must not be targeted even if there are combatants there, i am surprised this is not mentioned.

You guys did an excellent job with this video, and you did a great job with the debate itself.I appreciate the thoughtfulness and honest way you try to approach the issue. Good luck.

1h26m00s The clapping could be that Brie is explaining the death count hasn’t moved so is an undercount and not celebrating the number of deaths. That number hasn’t moved in months it’s ridiculous way more are dead but not counted. That’s how I took it and I would have clapped also!

So almost 2.5 hours of hasbara ? can't take so many lies at a time

On the section about the Hamas charters. You selectively quote the 2017 charter. It is a fundamentally self-contradictory document: 1) It conceptualises the conflict in an Islamist manner - Zionism vs the Ummah - despite it also saying it's against sectarian bigotry. 2) You mention the sentences that speak about co-existence, tolerance and civilisational innovation. Yet it also talks about Palestine being on the whole of the land of Israel. It speaks about Jerusalem - implied all of it 'not one stone can be surrendered' - being the capital of a Palestine. It declares Jewish settlement in Jerusalem to be 'null and void' - and that is all settlement - the city has been majority Jewish since the 1860s - before Zionism. It talks about the right of return, and that 'refugees' should be able to 'return to their homes' even in Israel proper (lands of 1948). This isn't tolerance or coexistence - it's dominion - as there are many millions of Palestinians with refugee status so Jews would be a small minority in a Palestine. Israel within 1967 lines is recognised as a state under international law. So when the document says it's against the 'persecution of any human being on...sectarian, nationalist and religious grounds' it is again self-contradictory as Jews/Zionists would be discriminated against on all three of those grounds. 3) It ignores Zionism's fundamental tie to Judaism and Jews so when it says the quarrel is not with Jews but Zionists, it's a completely meaningless statement. A quarrel with Zionism is a quarrel with Jewish self-determination and thus Jews. Anti-Zionist Jews are a tiny fringe minority in all sizeable Jewish communities less than 10% in the UK for example. It conceptualises anti-Semitism as European and not Arab even when it was considerable in Arab lands (Jews in Arab Countries: The Great Uprooting - George Bensoussan). And that's not even to mention the anti-semitism that partly caused the mass Jewish exodus from Arab lands in 1940s/50s. 4) Hamas never disavowed it's 1988 charter in it's 2017 one, though it could have done explicitly. So thus it should be seen as additive. You pan Moynihan for telling people to believe Hamas's words when they say them but then point to the least problematic parts of the document that are already contradicted in that document. Inexplicably you speak about Fatah leadership not engaging in terror since 2nd Intifada but neglect to mention the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund. Jake is then incredulous that people aren't rewarding this 'positive change' and talks about officials making statements in line with the new charter. The bigotry of low expectations - actually it's up to Hamas to not make an anti-Semitic document that calls for the destruction of Israel. When a Hamas politburo member, Ghazi Hamad, states that there will be an October 7th a 2nd and 3rd time that will result in Israel's annihilation, that's not a group against persecution and for co-existence. That statement is absolutely in line with the 1988 one. Indeed, October 7th itself completely threw into sharp relief Hamas's commitment to the 2017 charter. It showed it to be the figleaf, PR rebranding it is despite it still being an anti-Semitic and virulently anti-Zionist document. Also Salome's gaslighting that the rejection in the difference in documents is redolent of people wanting there not to be peace but domination is such an irony given that the 2017 document is replete with objectives that would result in Palestinian domination.

On the history about 2.40. In 1919 there was a commission done called the King Crane commission on the entire issue of the partition of Greater Syria. King and Crane two Americans did a good job but all their suggestions were ignored and France And Britain divided Greater Syria to suite their own interests. The report was suppressed until 1922. One of the findings was that the establishment of a Zionist state was a terrible idea as the majority Arab population were against it and it was only supported by a small number of Zionist immigrants. Every British army officer interviewed said that a Zionist state could not be maintained without violent suppression and military occupation. And 100 years later...here we still are.

How is citing several opinion pieces considered legitimate citations? I’d like to see actual peer-reviewed citations.

I love this. I know a lot of these points, but the detail, nuance, and sourcing is NEXT level!

Although I’ve always personally held the “anti-woke” position (I was in college when it really blew up in 2012 onwards) I never took the anti woke folks with any seriousness due to the issue of Israel. On its face, Israel is anti everything those ppl believe in. It was obvious to me that these anti wolk ppl were simply foaming at the mouth against Muslims. There’s no other explanation for that level of cognitive dissonance. The Danes comment in this debate makes that VERY clear. Respect to both of you for this thorough breakdown. I have some quibbles With your POV but you’re both incredibly intellectually honest in this video. Very happy to find anti woke critics of Zionism. Subscribed.

As a religious studies major, a good way to view this conflict is through the history of Roman occupied Judea. While most of those subjugated by the Roman empire accepted their fate, the Jews were notorious for NEVER giving up. They fought wars they knew for sure they would lose (i.e. the Jewish wars) just because they refused to lay down quietly. Roman occupied Judea was filled with miniature terrorist cells, zealous military prophets, and people claiming that angels would help them defeat the Romans in battle. While its likely none of us would support these people or want to meet them it's proof that when Democracy is stripped from you and every avenue of your life is controlled by foreigners, ALL humans will naturally go apeshit and do anything, sometimes terrible things, to be free from tyranny. Unsurprisingly, after the Roman empire fell, Jewish terrorism and messianism disappeared almost immediately because there was no longer a need for it, and today this episode is largely forgotten and there is no tension whatsoever between the descendants of Rome and Jews, they live as equals and in peace. Also, just for fun, most of that took place in historic Palestine.

Very interesting video!