When I have dressed the 80 with 60 grit abrasive I can't get it to cut very aggressively, it takes at least a 30 grit or lower abrasive to reach it's full potential.

Great. Very relieved to have the answer. Thanks so much for the reply. Off to find some 30grit!

@@morrisnickrdg EP and I both currently use 24 grit to dress them with, and I sell it on my website if you want.

Once they have been dressed a few times then the difference in time to dress doesn't change much between the coarser and finer stones. The coarser ones do take longer but only a few seconds. If dressing my stones for the first time then you will need to do it for around 45 seconds to remove the excess resin skin off. I suggest dressing for 10-15 seconds and they try sharpening a knife, then dress again, and use them again, until you don't find any benefit from dressing. This will teach you how long it takes to dress them, how they should look after dressing, and how the stones should work when properly dressed. It takes around 45 seconds to dress off .001" of stone thickness so your not going to harm them over dressing a few times and you will learn a lot from it. I think this is true for all stones that need to be dressed occasionally. Learning how to properly dress is critical for all stones, I have been pleasantly surprised at how much better my old aluminum oxide stones worked after dressing them with loose grit. The times I quote here are for the 1x4 stones, the bigger the stone the longer it takes to dress them.

They have samples and prices, the rest is up to them.

You have to apply some pressure with any of them, the coarser the stone the more pressure I use. You also have to make sure you are dressing them evenly. I use an old pair of calipers to measure all four corners every few dressings as they will become uneven over time if I don't.

I think so but it depends on the resin and any modifiers if used. I haven't seen one in person so I can't say for sure. The old Venevs didn't dress well but the current ones do, and I don't know how the Hapstone stones compare. While you can't harm them by dressing you can make them cut much finer/slower by dressing them wrong. I would say dress one of your coarser stones for no more than 10-15 seconds and take a few passes on a knife to see if it made a difference. Repeat a few times until you feel it is cutting well and doesn't improve with more dressing. Dressing with coarser grits may make the stones more aggressive and dressing with too fine a grit may make the stone cut finer/slower so don't be shy about playing with different grits, but stay away from anything finer than 300 grit ANSI.

I linked my website in the video description above.

@@CGSW awesome!!

600-1925 depending on which conversion you like, which is why I call them out in microns.

I was eying one for awhile but then when it was coming out in S90V I had to get it.

Too much as I would have to make all of the tooling as well as aluminum mounts to do it. The best I can do is a 3" x 8".

I only get a few cosmetic seconds of my own stones and so far have used them myself. I do have a bunch of Matrix stones I have made over the years that EP won't touch but recently said that I can sell them myself as long as I remove their name from them. I will do this in a few months, I am backed up that much, and list them on my website. I will do a video announcing when they are for sale so don't forget to subscribe if you are interested. They are all first quality but have some minor issue like a blemish on the aluminum mount, a dent from getting dropped on my concrete floor, the wrong mount was used for that grit, etc.

@CGSW perfect exactly what I'm looking for. Thx hopefully it's soon

Yeah, we changed the grit sizes on 3 of the stones so the jumps between them are exactly 100% bigger for each step. What size each step should be depends on what you are sharpening and how repeatable your sharpener is, of course there is no universal best. The jumps we use are somewhat conservative but the smaller steps help ensure each stone removes the scratches from the last more easily. If you have the old stones don't worry, your not missing out on anything. You would only notice a difference if you have both on your bench and can swap back and forth. When we have done this we tend to like the new grits, but the difference is tiny. I have real doubts about the abrasive size in the finer Venev stones. Compared to mine, which I do know are accurate, the Venevs leave a far coarser finish for what abrasive size they claim the stone uses. My experience is 5 micron is about as small as you can go with diamond for most steels, and too small for softer steels. For ultra hard steels like Maxamet I can go down to 3 or 4 micron and for good ceramics I can go down to 2 or 3 micron. What I think says this abrasive is too fine for this bond is I start to see random stray scratches instead of the nice even scratches I normally see. You want to change to strops before the random scratches as they are deeper and don't clean up as easily with the next grit.

I think so from looking at photos on their website but to be sure go to cgsw.us/shop/1x4-resin-bond-diamond-stones/ and see which type of stone holder you have in my photos. I use a female dovetail, as opposed to the male dovetail that Edge Pro uses, so not all stone holders will work. I also show the dimensions so you can check your stoneholders to be sure.

They absolutely work great! I have the ko3

You really need to have the stones in hand to see it but you also REALLY need to use them to know for sure that they are working correctly. This is true when dressing any stone, not just mine. This is my preferred method of dressing any stone. Loose abrasive works so much differently than a fixed abrasive like a diamond plate. By the way do not use diamond plates with diamond stones, you will dull the crystals in the plate.

@@CGSW Re-reading my comment ... I'm embarrassed. Please forgive my rudeness.

I didn't read it as rude so no worries. On further thought look at the difference between the two stones in the first 30 seconds. That shows what to look for but the stone can look good until you sharpen a knife but the steel left on the stone shows where the stone didn't get dressed enough. This is all about that first dressing on a new stone. Once you have dressed it a few times then it becomes much easier as the stone settles down.@@trumanhw

​@@CGSW Thanks. Appreciate that. I've just started dressing my Shapton Pro and it's way more challenging to do right than I thought (and certainly more than I could tell at first glance watching you). What do you think about the use of silicon carbide that I've seen others use ..? I'm guessing people also use cBN ... which, speaking of: I'd really LOVE to watch you make stones. I'm guessing you have molds. You mix the CBN with resin and use a large grid of molds, use a plate to compress the contents until it cures, and then maybe use a mill to get them shaped right. After... maybe use a glue to mate them to the AL blanks that I'm guessing you also make using the mill ..? I've looked for ANYONE who makes stones (resin bonded) but there's literally nothing to be found. If it doesn't give away secrets ... I'd just love to watch the process. I wouldn't be surprised if I were off by miles, but I wanted to jot down something ... just thinking about mfring gives me more appreciation for the world around me ... and i'm jealous I've never had access to a machine shop. Last -- I have a microscope too. A simulfocal ... with 10x eyepieces and a low ... maybe 0.7 to 4.0x main tube...connected to a pretty good HD camera with an M4/3 sensor. Do you think I could get decent images of a blade with mine..? Or would i need much higher magnification eye pieces..? Thanks!

Dressing isn't hard as long as you have a flat plate, properly sized loose grit, and the right amount of water. Too much water and the grit just washes away, you need just enough to get it to roll around and stay on the plate. Either black silicon carbide or brown aluminum oxide work fine. The colors denote they are the least friable of their type, meaning they take longer to break down when dressing stones. Yeah, not much info on making polishing stones of any sort available. Of course it's all secret since once you figure it out making this stuff isn't that hard, but can be involved. I inherited a doctors microscope and put a USB camera eyepiece in it. I don't have a clue what magnification I am using or really anything else about microscopes because this is the only one I have ever used.@@trumanhw

They have their place. I only use polyethylene cutting boards and mats so my knives stay sharper longer, and this ceramic holds an edge longer than anything. I finally sharpened it again 18 months later and was surprised at how little chipping there was on the edge. I also don't baby it and use it to crush garlic with. They are not that fragile as long as you aren't stupid about it.

The small burr size is not unique to my stones but the sharp diamonds do help a lot. I find using lower pressure helps as does keeping your stones in good shape by proper use and dressing. If your new to sharpening then I think you made a good choice with your stones as my stones are a bit fussier in how they are used and maintained. If you haven't dressed your stones yet I highly recommend getting some loose abrasives and a flat plate and learning how, it isn't just for flattening. It can really change how well your stones cut when you clean them up and expose fresh abrasive. I like light pressure to avoid breaking my stones down, whether sharpening stones or grinding wheels, so I need to dress them to keep them from glazing up. If you do it this way you won't wear them any faster and I think they will put a better edge on your knife. I count my strokes so I don't use too many and am consistent side to side. I really think most of us too many passes, I know I did, which is all I am trying to show. I think removing the burr is about the most dangerous thing we do to the apex as that last few thousands of the blade is pretty fragile when we are done sharpening. The idea of braking it off or folding it back over the apex I think is wrong. I think it is best to wear it off with a strop and proper abrasive, it certainly is safer for the edge. Of course I don't say this works in all cases, it depends on your abrasives, the edge you want, and the steel you are working with.

@@CGSW Very generous of you to provide such a detailed reply: I had also bought a Suehiro Diamond plate Combo dressing // Lapping stone (grits 150 / 500) ... but when I lap I notice there isn't much change in texture, just evens it out a bit. But as you mentioned ... I'm thinking I'll need more experience to develop the feel for what my goal is and when it feels right. Good point about lower pressure (another guy (Rob Cosman) focused on chisels said he believes // thinks of lower pressure as being like a slightly finer grit). I have experimented with it on my 5k ... but I think with time I'll develop a better and more pronounced algorithm. Likewise of tracking my strokes ... as you rightfully mention it'll help with symmetry. A the burr. Mr.Wizard gave me some reading and it's incredible how deep this subject goes. For whatever reason ... I've been pretty lucky so far and haven't had much difficulty with burr removal. Which probably means I'm doing something else wrong; eg., removing it in a way that dulls the edge while removing the burr ... costing me sharpness without my realizing it. After all; I'm a complete novice and you've undoubtedly forgotten more than I'll ever know. And I'm sure that's not hyperbole. It's certainly true for me with pool // billiards ... and only through my pursuit of excellence in that, do I realize how amazing humans become at those things which capture their heart and attention. Again, thank you very, very much for your feedback. If I stay with this hobby I'll definitely try out your products one day. Hopefully we'll even get to speak on the phone! Thank you again.

The BESS scale shows the highest weight it measures until you reset it, so the final measurement was accurate.

@@CGSW thanks. good info.

I make the Matrix stones too but only sell them to Edge Pro. They are a very old customer so I can't directly compete with them.

@@CGSW Of course. You're a good man. And again, thanks for the info.

Depends on if you want a saw or a sharp edge.

For bare leather generally 10-20 strokes per side and only for burr removal. Even for a softer steel like the knife in this video bare leather doesn't do much to the steel, it really needs some abrasive added to it. But leather is a bit too soft and quickly convexes the apex. If it is loaded with diamond then 2-3 passes max, any more and the angle at the apex changes significantly.

I have .005"-.025" in .005" increments handy and use the .01" one to start with. I started using it to protect my stone and whatever it would be rubbing on when compensating for thickness. I later figured it's handy for small angle adjustments too.

@@CGSWgreat idea I just ordered some feeler gauges to try out. Do you find the apex feeling more crisp and bitey when checking against the pads of your fingers? I’m wondering since the apex isn’t getting convexed on a microscopic scales if the apex feels different on your finger pads. Normally after stropping the edge doesn’t “feel” as sharp on the pads.

I think the knife is 440c and the hardness is good for what it is. The Matrix stones still work well on this steel but I borrowed a full set of Shapton Glass stones and the hones from EP probably 2 years ago and it's time to give them back so I wanted to play with them some before doing so. It also gave me a chance to try aluminum oxide on my polymer strops.

No, it's just one I made for myself to test some ideas on.

I gave EP some samples to try out a few weeks ago so we will see.

I love Your diamond stones my KME and Hapstone sharpeners, 4" and 6" lengths would be perfect to complement my sharpening systems.

Meh, an 80 micron stone and a loaded strop gets me around 100 BESS with the steels you like.

@@CGSW for sure. I like vanadium steels as well, I just don't find anything beyond k390/10v to make much sense what so ever, even in niche applications. Favorite overall steel is maybe CPM D2. Night and day drastically different steel from regular D2. You can take the stuff into the mid 60's HRC and maintain better toughness than regular D2 in the high 50's. Doesn't require advanced abrasives to grind either, actually quite a bit easier (than ingot D2) to work with because of how fine the microstructure is .

It is interesting in how varied our personal preferences are concerning knives. After getting used to using these resin bond diamond stones I don't like conventional abrasives because of the mess they make. I have a full set of Shapton Glass stones I borrowed from EP a few years ago to play with and do a video comparison about but can't stand the mess they make. Because of how I use most of my knives I prefer a sticky sharp edge vs working/toothy/ edge. Just personal preference and opinion which I am sure will change as I learn more about the subject or my knife needs change.@@user-xf4es7eh9y

@@CGSW to be fair shapton glass stones are designed to compete with the naniwa chosera stones, which are quite a bit more "friable" than something harder and releases less grit like Shapton Pro which is more similar to the Naniwa Habiki. The Chosera and Glass stones are designed to be versatile and work on large bevels as well as small bevels, hence the mess, which is what leaves a smoother finish on wider bevels, like you see in traditional Japanese knives. Compared to very mess muddy traditional stones, the glass and chosera are quite convenient. I do love diamond as an abrasive though, there is nothing else like it. The only limitation of diamond really is that it cuts everything and thus you can't really use it to get a "contrasting" finish between forge welded layers steels, or to get a "carbide rich" edge. other than that, diamond is absolutely game changing and awesome . to be fair, also when you're doing heavy powered grinding, ie not manual, in that case you might want CBN for the better heat management, but that's about it.

That depends on several things. If properly taken care of I am pretty sure mine will last longer and they perform a bit better than the Venevs so I don't think you can say Venevs are cheaper in the long run. Yes some of the Venevs are thicker but the resin is heavily filled to get it to wear some in use and be easier to dress. I think this also improves the "feel" when sharpening. It really comes down to the two lines of stones are different, and it is up to the user to decide which they like best. I think of the Venevs as a bit rougher and more universal where mine are more refined and suited to blades that you have to have diamond to properly sharpen them.

@@CGSW what do you mean by the resin is heavily filled? they're also double sided and cost 90$ compared to yours which are double the price

It sounds like you just have to use and test them to find out how long they each last to then determin what value you put on them. As for heavily filled that is as obvious to me as if I said it was red and you ask what do I mean. To further this claim take a look at this www.myabrasive.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=565&p=8609&hilit=SEM%2FEDX+%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%8F+9+%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2#p8609 Whoever is making the Venev stones seems to me to be used to making grinding wheels from the modifiers they use. I am not saying it is wrong, just that in my opinion they modified it too much.

There are advantages and disadvanteges to both stones. These are my babies so I am somewhat prejudiced but have done a lot of work to develop and improve them so have gained a lot of knowledge on the subject. When I have time I do try out different resins in an attempt to improve what I am making, I am not complacent thinking I don't need to improve. The resin in the Matrix stones is on the soft side which favors the finer grits, but the resin is too hard for anything finer than 5 microns, and a bit too soft for the 250 and 80. The Venevs now use a heavily filled phenolic resin to promote water absorbtion and wear. The originals were nearly impossible to dress, the new versions dress/wear noticeably faster than the Matrix stones. You have to keep the Matrix stones wet when using them or they will load up and lose a lot of performance quickly. If you keep them wet I can sharpen 40-70 knives with the finest stones before needing to dress them, the coarser the stone the longer between dressings. I have been playing around trying to come up with an easier way to clean and restore my stones. I made some Nagura stones that are just for resin bond stones and they work quite a bit better than anything else that I have tried, but loose grit on a flat plate works about 10 times better for the small stones so that project is off the front burner. It's real hard to compete on price with a poor country known for cheap labour, even for Russia, which is why they are made in Ukraine instead of Russia. The only way I could do that is to sell direct with no markups. The Matrix stones are designed not to wear in use so they should last much longer. The diamonds don't dull so having the stone wear in use is something I disagree with, which is what the Venevs are now designed to do. I have to disagree that the Venev 1200 polishes better than the Matrix 4000. While it kind of does it leaves deeper stray scratches than the Matrix which are then harder to polish out with the next finer stone. The Matrix stones do leave a more consistent scratch pattern and create smaller burrs for the same grits. If this isn't true for you then they need dressed. In the last few days I have finally come up with the next steps past the Matrix 4000. One new resin works down to 1 micron without rounding the apex from being too soft, it's stiffer than leather. I have a softer resin than works on finer diamond but it does round the apex some so you have to be careful not to make too many passes. The new resins are only for polishing, or sharpening ceramics, and work better than anything I have used yet so stay tuned!

I agree with everything you said David.. But let me tell you, they are my babies too cause i cant imagine using alox stones anymore.. Ok adressing Russia as poor country with cheap labour is misinformation in the extreme David.. Russian people and their living standards are higher than living standard in USA now🙏 1200F venev (25% concentration) have a bit better polish but its very marginal cause i use them both.. On issue of water with matrix, i now only use oil only drop in tissue and wipe will completely prevent loading and more important it just wipes away completely after sharpening but that matter of opinion cause i realize even when they look dirty it doesnt impact the performance... I love both equally to be honest and the layer of abrasive is also not very important cause they are incredibly durable (matrix i have 4years and 100s of knives maybe 700 and i worn from 1.6mm to 1.22mm now) so for me price difference is irrelevant but for poor people its not and more consistent scratch pattern David its totally irrelevant cause most people are not gonna look at the edge under microscope and 25% 1200# venev leaves beautiful finish, just as good as 4000# matrix.. For earthlings it comes down to quantity/quality/cost ratio.. I am unbiased user of both and im just giving my opinion for others from my experience. Thats all

I didn't say Russia was a poor country with cheap labor, I said Ukraine was. The statistics I have heard is they are the poorest in Europe. I only tried oil once, with mineral oil, and I wetted the stones with it. I didn't like how the oil retained the swarf vs how water washed it away. I do believe oil is the better lubricant for cutting but I don't know how much that matters on this application. The more consistent scratch pattern is important when progressing through the grits as the next finer stone will remove the scratches from the previous stone quicker with less metal removed. I know not everyone looks at their edges through a microscope and I don't always either. But the microscope is good for showing you what is going on. This is handy when you are trying to figure out what other clues you have are trying to tell you. Just like using a BESS tester, it is a good measurement of the width of your apex if nothing else. I don't think much in the knife world we are playing with is too controlled by the quantity/quality/cost ratio, there are many other forces at play here.

​@@CGSWVenev is made in Russia David.. Poltava is Ukraine and Hapstone is made by Poltava , likewise Practical Sharpening🙏 I agree with on oil vs water.. Actually i used them with both anf still do.. Water gives better feedback but oil completely prevent loading (all of it , just wipe it off) I love these stones men both of them Venev and Matrix.. I just purchased 2 just now 2300# & 4000#..

​@@CGSWIm just giving you my feedback David.. Im just enthusiast and i always give my honest analise cause ive been a user and a fan from the very begining. There is one more attribute of matrix that i love.. They make no burr i mean almost zero ... Id like to learn what the mechanic behind this property.. Thank you for everything David and for responding to users like me❤🙏

15 dps on my Kyocera black nakiri and 17 dps on my Kyocera white paring knife. I will be sharpening both soon and will see how well they have held up at those angles over the last 18 or so months.

I like it but that stone does not like grinding edges, only bevels. When setting a bevel I always start with either the 250 or 650 until I have a bevel started before going to the 80 to finish it with. Also keep the pressure very low until the bevel begins to widen. I think this technique is good advice for all coarse stones, not just the Matrix 80.

@@CGSW ah okay so you dont like it to put a new edge or new angle on a knife ? Thought grit 80 will do the fastest job

@@RazorSharpMuenchen I need to do a video to explain this, but for now here is a simplified answer. I do like this stone as it has a lot of large diamond crystals, but they don't like to grind on edges, even the 175 degree inclusive edge between the bevel and knife blade. These stones like a set bevel to grind on. While this is more of an issue for my 80 grit/ 160 micron stones it is also the same issue for any coarse stone. You really should set a bevel of .01"-.02" width with a finer stone then switch to your coarset stone so that coarse stone only grinds on a bevel, abeit small, but that at light pressure is far better for the stone than grinding on a point between two bevels. This said my coarsest stone shows it's dislike by losing diamonds. So to enjoy this stone performing best, and lasting the longest, whenever you change your bevel angle make a few passes with a finer stone before using the 80. Keep in mind this advice applies to all coarse stones. This rabbit hole is deep so I will wait until I do a video to go there, plus I can explain it better than through words alone.

@@CGSW thank you so much for your answer that really was helpful. Of course I want to use it the way it lasts the longest ;) Usually on really damaged edges I grind an new angle and remove chips with my belt sander and then was my plan to correct the edge from concex to straight with my tsprof and the matrix grit 80. I hope that kinda works! Mine should arrive today, I let you know what my experiences will be. With softer steel and also 65HRC+ super steel :) Thanks a lot mate! And keep up the content! Sharpening is so meditating ;)

I have been asked about the Trend fluid but couldn't find out what it was made from. If memory serves all I could find on the MSDS was "petroleum distillates" so I couldn't say for sure it wouldn't attack the resin. Nice to hear it plays fine with my stones, thanks.

I try to get the tip and heel parallel with the front of the blade table. Maybe the belly of your knife has been sharpened more than the tip and heel?

No, because it only worked with the hardest steels or ceramics and the difference between the 4000 and 6500 was miniscule. The issue is the resin isn't right for finer grits. But trying out a softer resin that I tried about 15 years ago is on the to-do list. Think of it as a replacement, if it works, for abrasive loaded leather but with the abrasives built in, both diamond and aluminum oxide.

@CGSW thank you for the reply. Looking forward to future products and speaking with you again.

Yes, glass works fine. Until it gets scratched up the abrasive will skid some so keep this in mind.