Hi do you have a contact email?

McKinley not being able to answer fudges questions about GOD giving Imortality to the wicked was a GAME changer for me . BIBLE BIBLE Bible!

Horrendous audio, not fitting.

as a retired minister, I finally came to Fudge's way of thinking about 10 years ago as I restudied the Scriptures, considering both contextual evidence and the harmony of the Scriptures. I spoke to Bro. Fudge about 6 months before he died. He was indeed a wonderful person. One needs to read his books to get an even more comprehensive biblical examination of his views.

I love Dr Fudge

something that ultimately made me lean towards annihilationism was something fudge said. paraphrasing, if when we talk about what the Bible teaches, we speak in Gods name. If we teach people that Gods going to keep them alive forever to torment them, spiritually, emotionally, and/or physically, and were WRONG about that, thats a major error. We made God someone who hes not. But if i think its annihilationism and im wrong about that, tough beans it doesent matter what I think. If God thinks ECT is what we deserve then it is what it is. Being wrong one way is understandable, being wrong the other way is a major error. And of course im welcome to the idea of being wrong. Regardless of the outcome, God is good and im willing to trust that statement.

Good stuff.

I've not connected "destroyed from the presence of the Lord" in Numbers as a possible connection to Paul's use of "eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 before. Excellent presentation Glenn, thanks!

Well said. I agree that God's holiness and His response to evil as seen in the Bible supports the permanent and complete destruction of unholy people at the final judgment and does not support God keeping them alive forever in torment.

Excellent, compelling and very Biblical presentation.

Jesus did not suffer hell .he suffered death and paid the equal wage .

Thanks for posting these teaching sessions! Very good.

Thanks for posting these great teachings!

Thank you for these great teaching sessions. I'm a proponent of the conditional immortality position. Keep preaching the truth! God bless you.

John 3:16 . . . unless we receive the gift of eternal life, we will *_perish:_* ■ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So, how will the unsaved perish? ■ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23) After resurrection and judgment, the unsaved will die a second time. It's called the "second death" in the Bible, in Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14 and 21:8. After the second death there is no life and there is no hope of resurrection. It's the end of you. You'll never "be" again. That's what it means to "perish." And that's how God mercifully deals with those who reject Him. Here’s some examples of perishing from the Old Testament: ■ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ■ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ■ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). So, what is hell? The word “hell” appears in Bible *_translations_* because hell-believing *_translators_* put it there, paving over the meanings of three different original Greek words (New Testament). Those words have nothing to do with a place of eternal, fiery torment. Here’s an example: ■ “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47) The Greek word γέεννα (geena or gehenna in English) was translated "hell" in that verse. So, what was γέεννα, really? It was the valley (just outside Jerusalem) which was used as a dump in Jesus’ time. Constant fire and maggots there were sure to destroy whatever was thrown in. But translators said nothing about that dump. Instead, they translated γέεννα as “hell.” Using “hell” in that verse was grossly misleading. Jesus was not talking about eternal torment in some sort of fiery hell. Jesus was saying the unsaved would perish. They would surely be destroyed, just as trash thrown into that dump was sure to be destroyed. They would (figuratively) be thrown into the dump. Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word “hell” in place of those three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, through the Catholic church. By using “hell” they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words, making the Bible appear to support their doctrine of a place of perpetual, fiery torment. Some later translators have recognized this error. They've referenced the original Greek words in footnotes, or even used the original Greek words directly in the translated text . . . and not used “hell.” Young’s Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses “hell.” The damage caused by the translators continues to this day. Millions of reasonable people dismiss Christianity as nonsense when they are told the God of mercy will sadistically torment the unsaved forever and ever in some sort of fiery hell. People often struggle with the thought of perishing because they've been led to believe they have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and lives - somewhere - forever. That's actually a pagan doctrine that has crept into institutional Christianity over the centuries. (It's a repackaged version of Satan's lie, "Ye shall not surely die" -Genesis 3:4.) Here's the pagan Greek philosopher Plato; see if this sounds like what most professing Christians have taught by their churches: _"Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? And is this anything but the separation of soul and body? And_ _being dead is the attainment of this separation; when the soul exists in herself, and is parted from the body and the_ _body is parted from the soul . . . beyond question the soul is immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly_ _exist in another world!"_ (Plato, in _Phaedo,_ about 360 BC) The "soul" in the Bible is different: it only refers to your self, your person . . . not to some sort of immortal spirit component that floats out of your body when you die. Example: ■ "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls." (Acts 27:37) The soul - the person - that chooses sin will die: ■ "The soul that sinneth, it shall die . . . " (Ezekiel 18:20) ➔ Salvation is not about "where you'll spend eternity." Wrong paradigm! *You won't even **_have_** an eternity unless* *you receive from God the gift of eternal life!* Otherwise, you'll perish in that "second death." There will be "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" when the unsaved see others receiving the gift of eternal life and realize they, too, could have received eternal life. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved: ■ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." The punishment of the unsaved is "everlasting" in the sense that it is completed, final, permanent and irrevocable, like the execution of a criminal. The "everlasting punishment" is the second death, after which there is no life and no hope of resurrection. The punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being perpetual, conscious punishing.

It is God's right to take away life~even forever, from the sinner as he is the one who gave us life and a chance to turn to Him.

There clearly will be suffering in the lake of fire (I hate the word torment~it sounds evil) Yet it will be proportional to someone's sin. I imagine Satan will be suffering among the longest during this time. Yet not forever as the bible clearly speaks of Satan's end!!

God announces after the second death that there will be no more death, sorrow, or pain as he makes all things new! 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I think the idea of Eternal Torment is ridiculous and the reason so many people reject God!

I love brother Fudge, but when John started asking his questions I think Fudge missed an opportunity to explain the difference between Hell (Sheol, Hades, Abraham's Bosom) from the Lake of Fire. Hell gets cast into the Lake of Fire, clearly marking them as two separate things. But John made his question so philosophical that I think Fudge was caught up on some of the other details of it.

Conditional Immortality becomes obvious when Scripture is studied and when context is taken into consideration.

I almost threw up after the first presenter described such a sadistic and cruel being... I would never worship such a being. No wonder this is the biggest objection from those who really need a saviour to come to Jesus.

Good teaching series. i was already a conditionalist.

Note how in the debate McKinley spouts ideas WITHOUT specifying Scriptures to establish & proof his assertions?!🤔

Dear dear....the young lecturer paints such an illogical, unappealing and more importantly, unbiblical portrait of the God of the Bible. Jesus returned to the origin of any story to settle disputes of it. Matt.19 ³-⁶ Taking a cue from Jesus let us be reminded of humanity's origin and the conditions of continued life presented to the first man. Adam (who had no choice in being created) was invited to render freewill obedience. If he disdained or despised this gift of life he would forfeit it. The 2 options were: a) willing obedience springing from grateful love or b) deliberate disobedience springing from the lack of it. The consequences were kindly but clearly spelled out. Life EXTENDED or Life ENDED. Genesis 3 ³,¹⁷-¹⁹, ²²-²⁴ Not, Heaven's Bliss or Hell's Blisters! Not the penthouse or the basement! No. Life or Death. Existence or nonexistence! Not a single hint from the Supremely fair Judge alerting his new son of the AWFUL eternal horrors of disobedience!!...if Hell existed. The fair punishment for the lack of gratitude for a gift is forfeiture, not torture! Surely! Psalm 103 describes the God King David loved and worshipped. "Jhvh is merciful and compassionate, ...He will not always find fault, nor will stay resentful forever. He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor has He repaid us what our errors deserve" That's the God and Father I choose to love and worship. The God the dr. describes should be cringed at....but not loved or imitated. A vindictive, easily and massively offended, cold hearted Judge....but not a kind warmhearted Father such as Jesus painted. It surely must sadden Him to be so misrepresented. Jeremiah 7 ³¹

Why did Pharaoh need his heart hardened if he was already totally depraved, Calvinism makes no sense?

10:25 “to be stripped of these (things) forever, and yet be alive...”

Dear Biola, get a sound system.

First speak lost credibility with me when he joked about Harry Potter (witch Craft) film

The sound system!!!

audio needs to be fixed... really hard to hear

www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/

As long as people keep believing the trinity, they will never understand this. Jesus was not God almighty. Jesus was the human messiah that fully died . Jesus was in the grave for 3 days ( not a spiritual realm called hell) God raised Jesus from the dead and received eternal life , now sitting on the right hand of God. that's the whole point ! we can be raised too!!

So hell is a fact? Actually, the FACTS say hell is not real. It is a fact that you have never seen it. It is a fact that you have never tasted it. It is a fact that you have never touched it. It is a fact that you have never smelled it. It is a fact that you have never heard it. It is a fact that you can not prove it is real. It is a fact that no one on earth can prove it is real. It is a fact that there is no geological location on the face of earth call hell. It is a fact that there are no artifacts from hell. It is a fact that no one has ever taken a picture of hell. It is a fact that no one in any manuscript of the Bible including Jesus ever used the word hell. It is a fact that Paul declared he taught the whole counsel of God but never once said hell is real. It is a fact that when people were resurrected in the Bible none of them ever said hell was real. It is a fact that the KJV translators translated the word Sheol as hell. It is a fact that when the bible said believers go to Sheol they translated it grave instead of hell. But when nonbelievers go to Sheol they translate it hell. It is a fact that the KJV translators inconsistently translate the word Sheol. It is a fact that the word Hades was translated into the word hell in the NT. It is a fact that the one time the bible says Hades has no victory, the KJV translators translate it grave instead of hell. They can not have the bible saying there cherished (fear tool) (hell) has no victory. It is a fact the KJV translators inconsistency translated the word Hades. It is a fact that the KJV translators translated the word Gehenna into hell. It is a fact that Jeremiah used a geological location on planet earth to represent a nation judgment-Tophet. It is a fact that Tophet is the SAME place on planet earth that Jesus called Gehenna. It is a fact that the KJV translators could not logically translate Tophet into hell in the old testament because it would expose their trickery. It is a fact that when the word Tophet was changed to Gehenna (in the bible) that was a perfect opportunity for the KJV translators to change Tophet to hell instead of being honest and identifying it as a place on earth as they did in the old testament. It is a fact that the KJV translators translated the word Tartarus into hell. It is a fact that the bible NEVER says human souls or spirits ever go to Tartarus after they die. It is a fact that the bible never says fire, torture, pain or crying is in Tartarus. It is a fact that the bible says Sheol (a word translated hell) is silent and no one knows anything there. Ecc. It is a fact that Jesus teaches hypocrisy is wicked behavior. It is a fact that the definition of the word hypocrite is- Someone who engages in the same behavior he condemns others for. It is a fact that if hell was real, that means God is engaging in the same behavior he condemns others for by never forgiving and never loving them forever and ever. It is a fact that hell was never said to be the penalty for sin in the bible. It is a fact that Adam was never warned about hell in the garden. It is a fact that Cain was never warned of hell after killing his brother. It is a fact that Pharaoh was never warned of hell. It is a fact that no criminal in the whole bible was EVER warned that if they do not shape up, they will go to a dungeon where they will be punished after they die. It is a fact that God never said to anyone that they better shape up or then they will go to a dungeon where they will be punished after they die. It is a fact that no one at all including Jesus, God and all the prophets ever warned anyone that if they do not shape up they will go to a dungeon where they will be punished after they die. It is a fact that Greek mythology resembles today's hell doctrine, as well as the Poem called (Dante's Inferno) which was a fairy tale, created out of one mans imagination. 1. Psalm 115:17 2. Psalm 31:17

The lake of fire willnt be a picnic, so let’s get that straight, when the lost are called from their graves at the second resurrection they will find themselves before the great white throne, they will see the glorious lord Jesus and they will be judged and willnt be able to dispute or argue. They will be terrified and full of regret and will remember the times the gospel of Christ was given to them Then their sentence for their crimes or sins will be given and then their end will come in the lake of fire. Only God knows how long each one will suffer, how many stripes will be given but it will be punishment befitting the crime not punishing for ever and ever as some believe. If anyone thinks this will not be enough suffering really needs to seek God and ask Him to do heart surgery on their hard hearts. We still have the question of the many that never heard the gospel, God alone knows all hearts and will do the right thing in the end. Mr Edward fudge RIP. Glory to God in the highest.

Based on the atonement wouldn’t Jesus have to also suffer eternal conscious torment in our place then? Saying he suffered and eternity of punishment in the cross because he is eternal is unscriptural and a massive assumption seeing as Jesus could speak to the thief in the cross.

Hell is real and eternity exists NOW in the spirit realm, there is no TIME in eternity. Only on earth, just as gravity exists only on earth. Safer to rely on Jesus' warnings of hell than trust humans who are speaking of the eternal in such limited earthly ways. Repent today, tomorrow is promised to no one and after death there are no second chances.

Annihilationists are confused on one fact: there is no time in eternity and just because something is eternal doesn't mean it is life. Death can be eternal too (ongoing). Annihilationist arguments based on the earthly concept of time space dimension is pointless. The damned do not receive eternal life, but receive eternal death. There is no time in eternity. That is why Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord," and why Jesus said the thief on the cross would be with Him in paradise that day, even though in our earthly time that would be 3 days, but in eternity it would be THAT DAY. The passages that use the word "sleep" are for our earthly understanding because we are in time space on earth. Annihilationists show their lack of understanding of eternity and are confining God to our earthly time space dimension. There is NO TIME IN ETERNITY, no time in eternal life and no time in eternal death. There's more to this but for starters discussions must understand the concept of life without time aka ETERNITY. In any case the damned are not in an eternal state of life, they are in an eternal state of death. And YES even NOW as we speak, for the only ones who exist in time space are those who presently live on EARTH. Praise be to Jesus.

Speaking of annihilation, this John guy was annihilated in this "debate" lol

When every man faces God on the day of judgment he will be standing in his presence in all his glory and righteousness. The unsaved man will see the glory of heaven and Jesus will say Go, I do not know you. That man will know what he has lost. Could there be anything worse? I can’t think of it.

It's made my day to have come across this KZbin channel in 2018.

John McKinley is goofy, parroting reasons for eternal torment without believable bible to back it up! I do not care about the churches traditional view! Remember the Jews missed Messiah!!!!! Thank God for Edward Fudge!

Eternal life or Eternal death, (dead for eternity) no possibility of life after the second death!Old things pass away all things become new!

One person used numerous scriptures. The other talked endlessly and used one verse from the Bible. Mr Fudge wins

I think, I think, I think, vs scripture. Fudge wins this one easily. That is the thing about Conditional Immortality. There are SO MANY verses for it!

does anyone know of a church in ft.lauderdale or miami that supports annihilationism [email protected]

Edward Fudge is truly a breath of fresh air! We should never be afraid to ask questions and to not just "blindly" follow anyone. John McKinely is clearly nervous. If you go back in this video he said "for the wages of death is sin"?? This guy is clearly rattled. He had no clue what he was up against. Christ said "Thank-you Father for keeping these things from the learn-ed and the wise." Edward Fudge is a plain spoken man who too is educated. However he speaks from his gut and he keeps things simple. He doesn't speak over people's head. Doing that makes McKinely extremely prideful!

Edward Fudge quote the Bible while John McKinely always began with "I think". The following scripture explains it all Gen 3:19.

While I don't think this is a salvific issue it is an interesting question to ponder. I've always thought of hell as a quarantine zone where God withdraws His manifest presence from His creations that have rejected Him. Therefore, you only get more of yourself in hell. One's greed, malice, selfishness, and hatred are multiplied ad infinitum. You are your own tormentor. Seeking truth and peace apart from our Lord Jesus Christ is folly. As CS Lewis put it, we are eternally moving in one of two directions. Either we are moving towards God or away. Hell is locked from the inside. People don't live lives of complete rebellion and then suddenly want to be in the presence of the Lord. To the rebel sinner, hell would be equally as miserable as they would be in heaven, under subjugation to the creator and in His presence. That is how I personally reconcile the doctrine of hell. God just gives you what you ultimately want. You either want to serve the King or yourself. Hell isn't devils poking you in the rear end with pitchforks. It's just more of your fallen will allowed to flourish and ultimately be your own prison. This is a discussion best held within our faith. Whether God annihilates or quarantines the rebels, I will ultimately trust his judgment over mine. May the Lord bless and keep you all in Jesus' name. Amen

I did not know about Edward Fudge until I heard Eric Metaxas interview him the other day. Go to Metaxastalk.com and you should be able to find the interview.