Debate between John McKinely (Biola) vs. Edward Fudge on annihilationism

[@martin9410]

as a retired minister, I finally came to Fudge's way of thinking about 10 years ago as I restudied the Scriptures, considering both contextual evidence and the harmony of the Scriptures. I spoke to Bro. Fudge about 6 months before he died. He was indeed a wonderful person. One needs to read his books to get an even more comprehensive biblical examination of his views.

[@bar8665]

Speaking of annihilation, this John guy was annihilated in this "debate" lol

[@kimberlyjohnson7409]

Edward Fudge is truly a breath of fresh air! We should never be afraid to ask questions and to not just "blindly" follow anyone. John McKinely is clearly nervous. If you go back in this video he said "for the wages of death is sin"?? This guy is clearly rattled. He had no clue what he was up against. Christ said "Thank-you Father for keeping these things from the learn-ed and the wise." Edward Fudge is a plain spoken man who too is educated. However he speaks from his gut and he keeps things simple. He doesn't speak over people's head. Doing that makes McKinely extremely prideful!

[@EricBaxter-f2k]

McKinley not being able to answer fudges questions about GOD giving Imortality to the wicked was a GAME changer for me . BIBLE BIBLE Bible!

[@alg7322]

Edward Fudge quote the Bible while John McKinely always began with "I think". The following scripture explains it all Gen 3:19.

[@alanljungberg3291]

If you listen carefully to the arguments for eternal torment there is not much reference to scripture. Most of the points are philosophical and personal opinions or just personal points of view based on that person's understanding of the traditional belief. I understand it's difficult to let go if a long held or cherished belief that has long roots in tradition. I honestly believe this is a personal study that we, as Christians, must all undertake. Because this question strikes at the very heart of the character of God.

[@gingrai00]

Alan Ljungberg this is the way it must be. There is little scriptural support outside of the passage in Revelation that speaks of the smoke of the torment of the beast, the false prophet and the devil. There are, of course, those who worshipped the beast after the angelic warning.

[@moniquemonicat]

There is plenty of scripture that speaks of eternal damnation. What is hard for people to understand is the concept of ETERNITY. There is no TIME in eternity, it is an earthly law only. Just as FLESH is earthly only. On earth time space dimension what is "now" is not tomorrow but now, but in eternity now is always yet can be sequential.

[@Ben6Strings]

@@moniquemonicat The point is, there is no Scripture that speaks of endless torment/torture of non-believers.. Being completely destroyed is eternal damnation, in the most literal sense; and it's also backed by every single verse relating to the topic.

[@Ben6Strings]

Amen

[@TheJontydavid]

@@moniquemonicat see more philosophy and no scripture..

[@Ben6Strings]

Conditional Immortality becomes obvious when Scripture is studied and when context is taken into consideration.

[@theranova99]

Wow! Fudge is way more biblical and comprehensive in his view.

[@messianicreformer]

+Blue Pacific I agree. I don't know how people arrive at in depth study and still believe in Infinite Torment!

[@CherryFrog321]

I agree too. I wish more people would take the time to listen to/read about what he has to say. I hate seeing so many eternal torment believers display very un Christ-like behavior and actually get angry and insult Mr. Fudge and other conditionalists. It certainly doesn't convince me to follow their beliefs! Makes me wonder if they are just behaving like the god they worship.

[@tammyproffitt7124]

I or anyone can't even comprehend that a permanent torment that will be never ending forever and ever...I once believed in that as well but I always felt that how could that really be ...Do we as humans think we are more righteous and forgiving then God himself... because we as humans wouldn't even sentence someone or something to such a punishment...we would have more mercy then God himself....think about it people that truly believe in this doctrine and rightly devide his word...God bless

[@NoahHinesdeliverance]

audio needs to be fixed... really hard to hear

[@Ben6Strings]

I love brother Fudge, but when John started asking his questions I think Fudge missed an opportunity to explain the difference between Hell (Sheol, Hades, Abraham's Bosom) from the Lake of Fire. Hell gets cast into the Lake of Fire, clearly marking them as two separate things. But John made his question so philosophical that I think Fudge was caught up on some of the other details of it.

[@nelsangelin9667]

The lake of fire is simply the second death and will not ever continue again, It is the prerogative of God. Hell, the grave, will be no more. There will be no more death, no more grave. No more pain. Satan and sin will no more reign. It ends in eternal life. God is supreme.

[@SG-jv5zi]

One person used numerous scriptures. The other talked endlessly and used one verse from the Bible. Mr Fudge wins

[@robwagnon6578]

God announces after the second death that there will be no more death, sorrow, or pain as he makes all things new! 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[@bobpeterson1123]

Dear Biola, get a sound system.

[@markwhite5926]

They do, I just don't think the video recorder was linked to the sound system

[@bobpeterson1123]

@@markwhite5926 Dear Biola, get a nerd.

[@christinegitsham5268]

The lake of fire willnt be a picnic, so let’s get that straight, when the lost are called from their graves at the second resurrection they will find themselves before the great white throne, they will see the glorious lord Jesus and they will be judged and willnt be able to dispute or argue. They will be terrified and full of regret and will remember the times the gospel of Christ was given to them Then their sentence for their crimes or sins will be given and then their end will come in the lake of fire. Only God knows how long each one will suffer, how many stripes will be given but it will be punishment befitting the crime not punishing for ever and ever as some believe. If anyone thinks this will not be enough suffering really needs to seek God and ask Him to do heart surgery on their hard hearts. We still have the question of the many that never heard the gospel, God alone knows all hearts and will do the right thing in the end. Mr Edward fudge RIP. Glory to God in the highest.

[@MarkMetternichPhotographyLLC]

I think, I think, I think, vs scripture. Fudge wins this one easily. That is the thing about Conditional Immortality. There are SO MANY verses for it!

[@alaskasbackcountry777]

Mr. McKinely provided more philosophy than he did scriptural answers. What purpose does it serve to torment people for trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions (and then you just started) years. It serves no purpose at all. The universe will one day be free from sin and sinners and thank God they will not be reserved somewhere in the universe. In addition the punishment should fit the crime. If someone 15 years old dies unsaved does God think it just to torment them for eternal ages without end because they fell for the same temptation as Adam and Eve? God forbid. I pray that Gods faithful will continue to challenge the fallen churches still stuck in the dark ages. This includes keeping all of Gods commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit including the fourth one. Where in the scripture is Mr. Mckinely's account that the unsaved will glorify God by being tormented forever.

[@messianicreformer]

+J Burn True! Really it wasn't even the dark ages that caused the church to believe this. Plato was the originator of the immortal soul which is in direct contrast with the nature of man where the wages of sin is death. In Genesis we were instructed that only eating from the tree of life would give eternal life. In the NT we learn that accepting Jesus as Savior, we receive the free gift of eternal life. In 1 Cor 15 we learn that at the resurrection, then we will put on immortality but the wicked (and Hell itself) who didn't receive eternal life, will be destroyed in the flames of the Lake of Fire.

[@privacyiskey83]

The purpose it serves is that the wicked receive what they deserve by a Holy God. God has to punish eternally because God is infinite. You don't know Gods character to say such a silly statement.

[@messianicreformer]

Sean Walsh Your words said it all. God is infinite. We are not, as it is written, "...who alone has immortality..." 1 Tim 6:16

[@messianicreformer]

Sean Walsh Also, only God's Spirit is considered "the Eternal Spirit" as it is written, "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God.." If we are not immortal nor eternal, then how could eternal destruction not destroy us forever? It doesn't take a science degree to figure out that a non-infinite being can not continue to exist infinitely while at the same time undergoing destruction. Because "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might", which makes sense as non-existence really is the only escape from God's omnipresence.

[@messianicreformer]

Sean Walsh As well only some will "Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called" 1 Tim 6:11

[@epiphanist]

Note how in the debate McKinley spouts ideas WITHOUT specifying Scriptures to establish & proof his assertions?!🤔

[@gogogoku]

I almost threw up after the first presenter described such a sadistic and cruel being... I would never worship such a being. No wonder this is the biggest objection from those who really need a saviour to come to Jesus.

[@candyhosch5092]

When every man faces God on the day of judgment he will be standing in his presence in all his glory and righteousness. The unsaved man will see the glory of heaven and Jesus will say Go, I do not know you. That man will know what he has lost. Could there be anything worse? I can’t think of it.

[@vincentdesiano4861]

The sound system!!!

[@theneverending9319]

Based on the atonement wouldn’t Jesus have to also suffer eternal conscious torment in our place then? Saying he suffered and eternity of punishment in the cross because he is eternal is unscriptural and a massive assumption seeing as Jesus could speak to the thief in the cross.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Very good point that I thought of recently. If our punishment deserves eternal conscious torment then Jesus' sacrifice would appear to be insufficient. If however we deserve death, he paid the price in full. Hence the temple curtain was torn the moment he breathed his last. God's wrath was totally satisfied.

[@CherryFrog321]

And also, if eternal torment is the ultimate penalty for sin, then why didn't God warn Adam and Eve about hell when he told them not to eat the fruit? All he said was that they'd die and return to dust. And it didn't mention them going to "hell" at all

[@robindiberardino3989]

I love Dr Fudge

[@wadegray2689]

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) The original greek word used for “dead” is “nekros”, meaning: dead, a corpse, lifeless, subject to death, mortal. The greek word “synezōopoiēsen” was translated “quickened”, which means: made alive with. For the “traditional” doctrine to stand, we must all be “immortal” beings. This is yet another verse indicating that we are only “immortal” through Christ, without being saved by grace through Jesus Christ, we are dead, a corpse, lifeless, subject to death, mortal.

[@annchovey2089]

If you are an Amazon Prime member you can watch the movie about Edward Fudge called "Hell and Mr. Fudge" otherwise you can buy the DVD. For Prime members put in "Hell and Mr. Fudge watch" and the link will come up to view the movie for free.

[@calebgibson55]

Ann Chovey Wow! Thanks!! It’s really good!!

[@AdrianPaneto]

John McKinely to the answer of Edward Fudge on the gift of eternal life was inadequate. Idk is not answer to defend your position. On what basis was the question. Idk is not an answer.

[@TheZymbo]

While I don't think this is a salvific issue it is an interesting question to ponder. I've always thought of hell as a quarantine zone where God withdraws His manifest presence from His creations that have rejected Him. Therefore, you only get more of yourself in hell. One's greed, malice, selfishness, and hatred are multiplied ad infinitum. You are your own tormentor. Seeking truth and peace apart from our Lord Jesus Christ is folly. As CS Lewis put it, we are eternally moving in one of two directions. Either we are moving towards God or away. Hell is locked from the inside. People don't live lives of complete rebellion and then suddenly want to be in the presence of the Lord. To the rebel sinner, hell would be equally as miserable as they would be in heaven, under subjugation to the creator and in His presence. That is how I personally reconcile the doctrine of hell. God just gives you what you ultimately want. You either want to serve the King or yourself. Hell isn't devils poking you in the rear end with pitchforks. It's just more of your fallen will allowed to flourish and ultimately be your own prison. This is a discussion best held within our faith. Whether God annihilates or quarantines the rebels, I will ultimately trust his judgment over mine. May the Lord bless and keep you all in Jesus' name. Amen

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

zymbo The best answer to to your pondering, in light of scripture and God's character, is that eternal conscious torment WOULD ONLY BE TRUE IF man had an immortal soul. Because they don't, they are destroyed in accordance with God's character.

[@Daniel-xu1xc]

It's not a good argument IMO. Sinners still prefer being in Gods beautiful creation compared to a dark abyss...

[@robwagnon6578]

It is God's right to take away life~even forever, from the sinner as he is the one who gave us life and a chance to turn to Him.

[@annchovey2089]

I did not know about Edward Fudge until I heard Eric Metaxas interview him the other day. Go to Metaxastalk.com and you should be able to find the interview.

[@Georgephyl]

John McKinley is goofy, parroting reasons for eternal torment without believable bible to back it up! I do not care about the churches traditional view! Remember the Jews missed Messiah!!!!! Thank God for Edward Fudge!

[@wowitsfrostygames155]

something that ultimately made me lean towards annihilationism was something fudge said. paraphrasing, if when we talk about what the Bible teaches, we speak in Gods name. If we teach people that Gods going to keep them alive forever to torment them, spiritually, emotionally, and/or physically, and were WRONG about that, thats a major error. We made God someone who hes not. But if i think its annihilationism and im wrong about that, tough beans it doesent matter what I think. If God thinks ECT is what we deserve then it is what it is. Being wrong one way is understandable, being wrong the other way is a major error. And of course im welcome to the idea of being wrong. Regardless of the outcome, God is good and im willing to trust that statement.

[@kylewilson1022]

10:25 “to be stripped of these (things) forever, and yet be alive...”

[@Georgephyl]

Eternal life or Eternal death, (dead for eternity) no possibility of life after the second death!Old things pass away all things become new!

[@nelsangelin9667]

Horrendous audio, not fitting.

[@TheBibleSays]

John 3:16 . . . unless we receive the gift of eternal life, we will *_perish:_* ■ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So, how will the unsaved perish? ■ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23) After resurrection and judgment, the unsaved will die a second time. It's called the "second death" in the Bible, in Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14 and 21:8. After the second death there is no life and there is no hope of resurrection. It's the end of you. You'll never "be" again. That's what it means to "perish." And that's how God mercifully deals with those who reject Him. Here’s some examples of perishing from the Old Testament: ■ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ■ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ■ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). So, what is hell? The word “hell” appears in Bible *_translations_* because hell-believing *_translators_* put it there, paving over the meanings of three different original Greek words (New Testament). Those words have nothing to do with a place of eternal, fiery torment. Here’s an example: ■ “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47) The Greek word γέεννα (geena or gehenna in English) was translated "hell" in that verse. So, what was γέεννα, really? It was the valley (just outside Jerusalem) which was used as a dump in Jesus’ time. Constant fire and maggots there were sure to destroy whatever was thrown in. But translators said nothing about that dump. Instead, they translated γέεννα as “hell.” Using “hell” in that verse was grossly misleading. Jesus was not talking about eternal torment in some sort of fiery hell. Jesus was saying the unsaved would perish. They would surely be destroyed, just as trash thrown into that dump was sure to be destroyed. They would (figuratively) be thrown into the dump. Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word “hell” in place of those three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, through the Catholic church. By using “hell” they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words, making the Bible appear to support their doctrine of a place of perpetual, fiery torment. Some later translators have recognized this error. They've referenced the original Greek words in footnotes, or even used the original Greek words directly in the translated text . . . and not used “hell.” Young’s Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses “hell.” The damage caused by the translators continues to this day. Millions of reasonable people dismiss Christianity as nonsense when they are told the God of mercy will sadistically torment the unsaved forever and ever in some sort of fiery hell. People often struggle with the thought of perishing because they've been led to believe they have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and lives - somewhere - forever. That's actually a pagan doctrine that has crept into institutional Christianity over the centuries. (It's a repackaged version of Satan's lie, "Ye shall not surely die" -Genesis 3:4.) Here's the pagan Greek philosopher Plato; see if this sounds like what most professing Christians have taught by their churches: _"Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? And is this anything but the separation of soul and body? And_ _being dead is the attainment of this separation; when the soul exists in herself, and is parted from the body and the_ _body is parted from the soul . . . beyond question the soul is immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly_ _exist in another world!"_ (Plato, in _Phaedo,_ about 360 BC) The "soul" in the Bible is different: it only refers to your self, your person . . . not to some sort of immortal spirit component that floats out of your body when you die. Example: ■ "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls." (Acts 27:37) The soul - the person - that chooses sin will die: ■ "The soul that sinneth, it shall die . . . " (Ezekiel 18:20) ➔ Salvation is not about "where you'll spend eternity." Wrong paradigm! *You won't even **_have_** an eternity unless* *you receive from God the gift of eternal life!* Otherwise, you'll perish in that "second death." There will be "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" when the unsaved see others receiving the gift of eternal life and realize they, too, could have received eternal life. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved: ■ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." The punishment of the unsaved is "everlasting" in the sense that it is completed, final, permanent and irrevocable, like the execution of a criminal. The "everlasting punishment" is the second death, after which there is no life and no hope of resurrection. The punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being perpetual, conscious punishing.

[@markwhite5926]

Why did Pharaoh need his heart hardened if he was already totally depraved, Calvinism makes no sense?

[@robwagnon6578]

I think the idea of Eternal Torment is ridiculous and the reason so many people reject God!

[@privacyiskey83]

A big crowd of scoffers laughing at things that shouldn't be laughed at. Do not be deceived God will not be mocked a man reaps what he sows. Galatians 6:7

[@Ben6Strings]

I think the crowd was laughing because Fudge is an easy going guy who can be humorous at times. They weren't mocking God at all. God has a sense of humor. If you're not fully aware of Fudge's work, I highly highly recommend listening to his lectures where he goes into a lot more detail (or his books). But, with that said I like your profile picture! ;)

[@moniquemonicat]

Annihilationists are confused on one fact: there is no time in eternity and just because something is eternal doesn't mean it is life. Death can be eternal too (ongoing). Annihilationist arguments based on the earthly concept of time space dimension is pointless. The damned do not receive eternal life, but receive eternal death. There is no time in eternity. That is why Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord," and why Jesus said the thief on the cross would be with Him in paradise that day, even though in our earthly time that would be 3 days, but in eternity it would be THAT DAY. The passages that use the word "sleep" are for our earthly understanding because we are in time space on earth. Annihilationists show their lack of understanding of eternity and are confining God to our earthly time space dimension. There is NO TIME IN ETERNITY, no time in eternal life and no time in eternal death. There's more to this but for starters discussions must understand the concept of life without time aka ETERNITY. In any case the damned are not in an eternal state of life, they are in an eternal state of death. And YES even NOW as we speak, for the only ones who exist in time space are those who presently live on EARTH. Praise be to Jesus.

[@theneverending9319]

moniquemonicat if they are in an eternal state of conscious death how can death be no more? Annihilation can answer this easily but ect can not.

[@scottleary8468]

@ moniquemonicat You are making a "philosophical" argument that cannot be proven philosophically or biblically. Eternity may be "timelessness" (as Augustine and Aquinas believed)? Or eternity could be "infinite time," that is "time with no beginning and no end"? But even if eternity is "timelessness," conditional mortality could still be true? The "immortality of the soul" is a platonic doctrine (taught by Plato), not a biblical doctrine (1 Timothy 6:16; 2 Timothy 1:10)! Immortality seems to be conditioned on faith and obedience (Genesis 2:17; John 3:16).

[@Ben6Strings]

You're the one that ignores countless scriptures which literally say they will be completely annihilated. Malachi chapter 4 says they will be thrown into a fire and it "will leave neither root nor branch" and a couple verses later says "they will be ashes under the soles of your feet". Every single verse that is used to support eternal conscious torment is taken completely out of context and if you cross reference it to the old testament when it's first mentioned, it clearly describes annihilationism and not eternal torment. WE are the ones obeying Scriptures. YOU'RE the ones ignoring it and using verses out of context to describe an unjust (but so called "loving") Father.

[@Mrm1985100]

No.

[@anthonybardsley4985]

Jesus did not suffer hell .he suffered death and paid the equal wage .

[@robwagnon6578]

There clearly will be suffering in the lake of fire (I hate the word torment~it sounds evil) Yet it will be proportional to someone's sin. I imagine Satan will be suffering among the longest during this time. Yet not forever as the bible clearly speaks of Satan's end!!

[@moniquemonicat]

Hell is real and eternity exists NOW in the spirit realm, there is no TIME in eternity. Only on earth, just as gravity exists only on earth. Safer to rely on Jesus' warnings of hell than trust humans who are speaking of the eternal in such limited earthly ways. Repent today, tomorrow is promised to no one and after death there are no second chances.

[@theneverending9319]

moniquemonicat sorry but that isn’t scriptural. Clearly we see the second resurrection hasn’t occurred yet so no one could be in the lake of fire currently. You can’t back up your view with scripture.

[@Ben6Strings]

Conditional Immortality aka Annihilationism is literally eternal, as it cannot be undone.

[@Mrm1985100]

No. Hell is destruction

[@christiaanwildtham710]

As long as people keep believing the trinity, they will never understand this. Jesus was not God almighty. Jesus was the human messiah that fully died . Jesus was in the grave for 3 days ( not a spiritual realm called hell) God raised Jesus from the dead and received eternal life , now sitting on the right hand of God. that's the whole point ! we can be raised too!!

[@Aaron637]

Go read Isaiah.

[@theoversoul]

Woah... that just blew my mind.

[@Ben6Strings]

@@theoversoul because it's completely wrong? Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus nor the Father. All three are fully God, as clearly described in the Bible.

[@Ben6Strings]

You're forgetting the part where the Bible literally says Jesus is God and where it very clearly describes the Godhead.

[@christiaanwildtham710]

@@Ben6Strings Sons of God were called gods yes. But Jesus is never called the Allmigty.

[@llllllllllllllIIlIllIIllIIIIll]

First speak lost credibility with me when he joked about Harry Potter (witch Craft) film