Thanks! I'll try to do more build videos too. They're some of my favorites.

Yup. So true.

The left are the new Nazi, first in the 80's the Nazi on the right and now the Nazi on the left.

Nice. I really enjoy Gloomhaven. We've been playing Jaws of The Lion a bunch lately, and it's been good too.

@thedungeon1578 jotl is awesome as well. Its the only campaign i have currently ongoing with my old dnd table. If you have buttons and bugs and ever want to play over discord, feel free to let me know. Its easy to tweak to 2 player.

Ah, good catch. I forgot it had to be a successful roll. In that case, I don't feel as bad.

Thanks! Also, I don't really blame the cleric for anything. She's got the right to play her character however she wants. It's just funny.

@@thedungeon1578 same. This is why i buildcraft self-sufficient characters. I dont want them to want for anything from other characters for the build to work. I want the builds even to be ones who can provide for other characters (typically picking up stuff like aid, thunderstep, wither and bloom, etc).

agreed with all points. utility need can vary from table to table but what is most common across most DND tables is combat so any ability/spell that contributes to that in an impactful or efficient way will always have the most value. Like a dungeon crawl wont care about charm person but a heist style session will most likely have at least 1 combat.

Fair points. But personally I think Metamagic competes quite well. It literally changes the way you can use spells and lets you do things others can't.

you are conflating being a generalist/versatility with being utility. utility is about helping with out of combat stuff or mundane in combat stuff. generalist/specialist, there are build/playstyles. support, healer, tank, striker, blaster, controller, summoner and utility are roles. BTW, fighters outclass monks and rogues. and most barbarians too at a certain point. what you're talking about with battlemaster isnt utility. these are control or support functions (debuff/buff). I'd side with Rob here as well. How good the sorc is at their job, overcomes their lack of utility and can do other things as well: control, summon (certain subclasses), support, tank and heal (certain subclasses). the only literal thing they are missing from their kit that utility casters have are skill bonuses, certain long range transportation spells and ritual caster which is what defines utility. i;'d say warlocks are inferior and bards are inferior only until a certain level. once they get access to the broken spells (magical secrets at 14), the bard and the wizard overtake the sorcerer. Metamagic does compete. my guess here is you havent seen an optimized, spell comboing sorc in action.

Good points.

I think it depends. For example when I think of utility, i think of two things. Utility infielder who can cover a lot of positions but not as well as the starter. Like a back up for a lot of positions. II'm in this way I think a generalist can be very valuable in a large party that can afford to carry an off-tank and an off-healer, someone who can concentrate on spells while providing, extra utility in some area that the particular encounter calls for. Boring mundane stuff like a lot of the ritual spells that make wizards high utility and skill monkeys.

@@cl10367 personaolly, i define utility as skill monkeying, rituals, mobility. basically things that have 0 to minimal effect in combat. i think what Rob is referring to are these things. not buff/debuff spells (support), healing/defensive spells (healer), control or blasting.

i agree that the topic diverged a bit. i still agree with his points though. specialists>generalists. A utility specialist is just useless in a big aspect of the game and extremely useful in certain campaigns (but not all). what for sure needs clarity in the vid is how is utility defined as it seems to me from reading the comments, different people have varying definitions.

as an avid illusionist, i'd also say sadly illusions are campaign dependent. i agree with your point but also keep in mind Rob's trying to pinpoint a baseline or common denominator. Utility can be excellent in some or a few campaigns. Combat spells are just more applicable to most.

Yes, this is a very good point. A lot also depends on your DM.

Good point. Creative players and DMs can really change the value of different spells or abilities.

@@alfonsovallejo2665 and this is why things differ from table to table. And why its important to set common baselines when it comes to analysis. Then, weed out whats niche. Having a good DM is a plus IMO and not a minus.

@@thedungeon1578 next thing you know you'll have people touting how awesome find traps is.

@@TheRobversion1 my way to think is: If spell/class ability specifically does a thing, then you cannot "rule of cool" a weaker spell or general spell (like eldritch blast igniting an object when fire bolt is the one that really does it, or prestidigitation making bigger illusion when the minor illusion spell does it).

@@alfonsovallejo2665 thats fair. We stick to the bounds of RAW. EB doesnt dmg objects. FB does. I think what Rob (and I) are talking about is that you dont rate FB as a better cantrip because it can destroy objects and EB cant. EB is still the overall better cantrip because not all sessions will need the utility of destroying objects. Almost all campaign types have combats. In that specific situation where object destruction is needed, FB is better. And the buck stops there. I'm the same as a DM as well. Players stick to the rules of what a spell can be used for (with some leeway for illusions). Agreed on minor illusion vs. prestidigitation as well. I think presti is overrated. Minor illusion is one of the best cantrips in the game and my pick for best cantrip in the game. I'd even place mold earth, mage hand and shape water ahead of presti for utility cantrips.

i think hes not criticizing support. Hes criticizing utility. Theres a difference. Support is your debuff, buffer and for some people healers fall under this bracket. Utility is about those ritual spells, mobility spells out of combat, skills usage, etc.

Yes; support is great. Even utility is good, I'm just saying that IMO it sometimes gets overrated. I've seen a lot of people treat "utility" like some unquestionable intangible that makes certain classes "the best" because "utility". I like utility, I just think specialization is better. But there is room for both. To assign completely made up numbers, if Utility is a 6/10 IMO, but everyone treats it like a 9/10, it's good but overrated.

@@thedungeon1578 agreed. I think campaign type differences and DM-types influence this. Experience influences perception. Specialization is indeed better. Utility is overrated. And yeah no ones saying utility is bad and there isnt room for it. I just think things have to be measures across whats common across most campaigns, table-tyoes, DMs, etc. For example, perception is really good. Never overrated. Why? Because any type of campaign, table and DM would use it. Even combat-heavy tables. Stealth on the other hand, is "overrated." Just like utility. There will be a sizeable chunk of tables who wont use it. But for the tables that use it? Its really, really good. A spell example. Tashas mind whip is good because its a great combat spell. Most tables will have combat. How about knock? Utility spell. In a campaign where it could be used, its great. In a combat-heavy session? Its useless. This is because exploration heavy challenges isnt common across tables. Its niche.

@@thedungeon1578 would you consider making a video about your favorite buff spells you can apply on others? I'm playing a cleric for the first time and the number of spells that don't require concentration is pretty saddening

@@polydipsiac if you still need help with this, i'd be glad to chime in. if you only want Rob's vid, no worries. all good.

Well, my friends were basically discussing all the Arcane full casters I think, so that's where the discussion happened.

Ok :) looking forward to it

@@thedungeon1578 Posted above. :)

I'll share my 2 cents as well. Agreed with the 2nd paragraph. I'd disagree with sorcs not using indirect magic (support), especially divine souls and clock sorcs. Sorcs are the best support casters in the game capable of twinning haste and other buff spells. If a divine sorc, they make the best out of combat healers in the game with extended aura of vitality. Spell selection matters. Its best not stick with the misconception that sorcerers are just blasters. It depends on what role you want to focus on. Sorcs also have innate bonus actions in quickened spell and of course any bonus action spell/racial ability/feat they acquire. Sorcerers also have access to most of the bard spells outside of rituals. Thats the only missing thing really aside from summons/healing from the sorc list. Rituals can easily be acquired by picking up the feat (sorcs dont have the feat tax other casters have for resilient con or warcaster). And healing can easily be acquired by multiclassing, being a divine sorc, picking up a certain feat, being a clock sorc, etc. As for tanking, clock sorcs can easily cover this role by L6 with AOA, bastion of law and a multiclass into an armor + shield class such as barb. So yeah i'm with Rob here. Sorcs can specialize and still cover any role the party may need of him to do. P.S. on my 1st one-shot since i returned to 5E. The players requested i play a tank. I played a totem warrior/clock sorc AOA tank.

@@TheRobversion1 Hmmm, I think we have to acknowledge that while the Sorcerer can specialize when picking a focus, the act of doing so means that they have deficiencies in the options forgone. This is an intentional sacrifice [to paraphrase Rob]. By contrast, the Bard does not specialize which limits its comparative ceiling for casting. If we accept the above to be true, then it means the Bard affects more areas of the game more often, but the Sorcerer can affect a given area within a given context to such a degree that it trumps the Bard having a wider range. This is your Divine Soul AoV example, where you have posited that AoV and Twin Haste make the Sorcerer the best support character. If Twin Haste is not more effective than Slow or Leomund's Tiny Hut in a given scenario, what does it matter that a DS can Twin Haste (a middling spell imo)? The specific action then becomes superfluous. This is why nova effects are not a de facto advantage: It depends upon what the situation calls for. And if it depends, then this where the versatile character gains leverage because it can accommodate each scenario more precisely. Often, the right spell is better than a juiced up passable spell I have found. YMMV. Next, saying that a feat tax is a detriment for non-Sorcs re: Con Saves and then saying a certain feat can be easily acquired for the Sorcerer re: healing doesn't seem balanced. A feat tax is a tax either way. Further, this applies doubly so to multiclassing. This is a heavy cost. Easy would be just picking and using base class spells and features. That's what the Bard can do out of the gate. No paths need to be set. They just perform.

@@jagdhillon757 i think for clarity, while i agree with the 1st paragraph, you make it sound as if by the act of a sorc specializing they suck at everything else. This is something i'm sure Rob and I will disagree with you with. To make it clearer we can compare a L8 divine sorc and a L8 glamor bard. Both are set out to be supports. Here's each role and how i think each will do: Support/healer: Sorc 5/5 Bard 4/5 sorcs have the advantage with metamagic and spell access. Striker: Sorc: 0/5 Bard: 0/5 Both arent built to be this. Utility: Sorc: 1/5 Bards: 4/5 Bards have rituals and expertise. Assuming here the sorc doesnt take ritual caster. Control: Sorcs: 5/5 Bards: 4/5 sorcs have superior spell access (like tashas mind whip) and metamagic again. Both classes can take on control as a secondary role while their concentration is allocated to the primary role. Blaster: Sorc: 3/5 Bard: 0/5 Sorcs can still allocate a spell selection to blasting while bards dont have access. Sorcs also have superior cantrips. Tanking: Sorc: 1/5 Bard: 0/5 Neither are tanking without being in the right subclass but a sorc could at least rely on shield if caught on the frontlines. Summoning: Sorc: 2/5 Bard: 0/5 Neither are summoners really without the proper magical secret selection or the right subclass. Sorcs however recently gained the spirit of death summon so they have something decent by L7. If you really think about it theres no edge really for a bard in any role until they get to L10+ (which was Rob's point). On the base class, its really just healing and utility. Everything else the bard can do, the sorc can do better even while specializing on something else. I'll address the other points in a separate comment.

Agreed. Sorcs are quite versatile too. Its a common misconception that they are just blasters. The subclasses add alot of more roles to their repertoire and they can specialize in these roles. Divine sorcs for example is arguably the best support/healer in the game with twinned hastes, extended + empowered aura of vitality, etc while having access to both the cleric and sorc spell list.

Would that extra utility granted by the one specialized combo allow the Sorcerer to match or exceed the utility of a ritual casting Wizard elsewise? We are talking a rough average of 30-35%~ difference in known spells, ritual casting (as mentioned), better spell list, arcane recovery, long rest preparations, spell books and scrolls etc... In fact, throughout the first 9 levels of play, the Wizard outpaces the non-Clockwork/Aberrant by having 135 more spells to choose from. It's a stark difference when it comes to utility/versatility. The one caveat is whether or not the Sorcerer's spell combination (with use of MM), out punch that Wizard in key battles consistently. Regardless of whether that Sorcerer has to multiclass to do it. If it does, then there is an argument to be made for the Sorcerer overall. If not....? I would not consider the Sorcerer minor by comparison though. That hyperbole invites a rebuttal.

@@jagdhillon757 just a very quick and little response on one of your points: I never understood why there is this counting of spells to choose from when there is only a certain amount of spell slots available to cast them. Granted, wiz have ritual casting and arcane recovery. Sorcs have metamagic and font of magic to twist their spells and be able to get more spell slots and a better action economy. If you are up to we could prepare each a char build and compare it. Thank you for commenting.

@@whispers7235 Sorcerery points are likely earmarked for Metamagic rather than to accrue spell slots (best use). There's no such opportunity cost for Wizards regarding RC and AR. They're just there for extra casting. The action economy granted by MM is great, but also limited. Over a 3-6 encounter day, with 2-4 combats, it will be great in the nova battle. However, there's still 2-5~ encounters left... The Wizard will be present here. I'm sure we could both present High Op builds, but the same dialogue will occur because it's the value of each feature where there is disagreement. Example: All the Bard's lower level spells and class features lack compared to Twin Haste in terms of overall support, somehow, when we disagree on the value of Haste. Or, the value of support over the day vs. one combat etc... Regardless, I have a post coming that will hopefully address some of this. Cheers.

Yeah, not the best news ever, is it?

I might know about that One-Shot you are talking, haha. And I agree. I had that kind of experience numerous times: I try to prepare a great spell selection, a great build,.. - and the combat situation leaves me grasping for straws.

​@@whispers7235yeah sometimes the combat/situation simply doesnt work with the build as we'd envisioned. Its always good to learn and to have a backup! ;)

Appreciate the positive feedback! Have you watched part 2? you'll see me take down wizards there and put sorc on top (at least until L8, or L10 for clock sorcs). Agreed on the sorc"s strength. Its about spell comboing to punch above the wizard's (or any other caster really) superior spell access. The key for sorcs in tier 1 is to dip in a casting class with armor/shield access. Twilight cleric and hexblade are 2 of my faves. That way you dont have to keep mage armor. Proper cantrip usage is also paramount to stay alive. I've always wanted to do a discussion on minor illusion and how it has kept my characters alive in tier 1. Thanks for the vote of confidence! i have been considering uploading my own vids. Just have to learn editing and stuff. This is why i was appreciative of Rob inviting me on as he was a great host.

Yeah, trying to take shield, mage armour, and absorb elements doesn't leave much room for anything else.

@@TheRobversion1 I agree that the level 1 dip resolves the Sorc's defensive issues, at the cost of spell progression. Party dynamics and the number of sessions per level can mean a lot here. Minor Illusion is one of my favourites for defensive obscurement tactics. I'll comment on the Wizard take down on that video. :) A few thoughts on your spell selection: - Suggestion is save or suck and ruled by DM fiat. I've found mixed results with it. - Great comments on Charm Person and Hex as utility spells. I agree with these choices. - No Web? - Dissonant Whispers as a play to disengage is fine, but it's the Shocking Grasp trap, in a way. You would rather just disengage at 100% surety. However, if you are built to hit with a weapon (Hexblade), then DW becomes an active weapon. - Thoughts on Enhance Ability? Keep this up guys!

@@thedungeon1578 It doesn't, no. I would delay absorb elements until later into tier1/early tier2.

@@jagdhillon757 yup. never had issues with spell progression. i normally have spells that operate optimally that scale well into higher levels. for example, phantasmal force. delaying 1-2 caster levels typically isnt a big deal. especially if the replacement is like cleric which only halts your SP and spells known progression by 1 level. you still have the same spell slot progression. yeah i pretty much rely on minor illusion to stay alive in the early tiers and still use it extensively at mid tiers. this is another reason why i dont worry about spell progression. at L1 i can have the core combo of minor illusion + mind sliver setup and that can carry me for a looong time. agreed on suggestion. thats why we named other options that could be less subject to DM fiat. web wasnt mentioned as this was primarily an aberrant mind vid. we were focusing on the enchantment/divination spells or spells initially on the aberrant mind list. basically spells that would be affected by psionic sorcery. for general sorc use, web is excellent if you have forced movement options (like if you dipped 2 levels into warlock). my default from the sorc list should there be no forced movement is the minor illusion + flaming sphere setup. or twinned phantasmal force. illusions though tend to get affected by DM fiat. agreed on dissonant whispers but i'll also add in this is where multiclassing into an armor + shield class helps. with that, disengaging becomes less of a need but more of a bonus. if i'm using dissonant whispers, i'm probably thinking of being a hexblade and whacking the enemy on their way out or picking up warcaster and casting a cantrip on their way out. and in both scenariors, not really caring about being in melee because i'm rocking 19 AC (med armor, +2 dex, +2 shield) at minimum. enhance ability is nice IMO on pet class builds (creation bard, drakewarden, beastmaster). it helps set the pets up as grapplers who can keep threat off the party. and the good thing due to the long duration, theres no action cost to start combat. for an aberrant mind or sorcerer in general, i wouldnt pick it up. if i wanted an initiative boost, there are cheaper options. if i wanted temp hp, i'd use false life.

Interesting, I like it. It's got some nice potential. I like the idea of being able to take sorcerer or cleric spells to augment your rogue skills too. Opens up a lot of possibilities.

@@thedungeon1578 my swashbuckler got exposed to a TORRENT of divine magic when he channeled the power of a goddess out of an npc before it got sealed away.

Thanks. I think too many people just complain about encounter balance, but don't think of ways to make the encounter better. Which is still partially fair - if you bought a WoTC pre-written adventure, you should have a certain expectation that it's going to be well done. Afterall, you're paying money for that product. But some people just complain for years about encounter balance, but never try understand what they could do to fix things themselves.

@@thedungeon1578 agreed. Personally, i never saw the point in the adventure books by WOTC (paizo does theirs well). Writing adventure books IMO is not WOTCs strong suit and is better done by the 3rd party creators.

hahaha

I enjoyed it too. I also enjoyed our 4 hour conversation that was supposed to be us just testing to make sure everything was working.

@@thedungeon1578 ditto! Our talk has reinvigorated my desire to get back into dnd, buildcrafting, etc. I'll slowly get to 5.24 and transition fully into it probably by next year once MM is out but i'm still hesitant to buy the new books for now.

thanks. I think it's my location though - my internet seems to drop for 1 or 2 minutes a day nearly every day here, but I don't think EVER happened in my old house in 5 years. Ah well.

glad you enjoyed this as much as i did!

Yeah, too many people downplay the effects of metamagic. Depending on which ones you choose, they can completely change the game. Subtle casting on counterspell? Now you can CS everyone else, but they can't CS you. Empower on blaster builds (and transmuted spell is great too, to avoid resistances/immunites). But even like we mentioned with extend spell - just getting more time out of your long lasting spells and saving spell slots. Converting spell slots you don't need into sorcery points, or sorcery points into spell slots. Sorcerers are just so versatile.

+3000. Theres more to sorcs than meets the eye. I havent checked DND 2024 (totally unaware) and i'm really hoping they didnt ruin my fave class.

​@@thedungeon1578agreed. Just changes how casters are played. And we didnt even touch on magical guidance which is useful for utility purposes!

If you wanted to go eldritch knight instead of battlemaster or arcane trickster instead of swashbuckler, those would be easy ways to add booming blade. You could also use feats or 1 level multi-classes in wizard, sorcerer, or warlock. I like idea of using booming blade if you're planning on moving around the battlefield a bunch, or if you only have 1 attack. Once you start getting extra attack, booming blade can start to fall behind (although it comes back again at higher levels, once you start adding more 2 or 3 die + the potential move). One thing about this build too, is that if you did use booming blade with it, you could consider taking warcaster (I probably wouldn't bother unless I had enough levels in my casting class to make it worthwhile), because then you can use a cantrip instead of an opportunity attack. That cantrip can just be booming blade, which gives you the ability to sneak attack on someone else's turn but do it with booming blade which is even more damage, and now since they're moving they can take the 2nd instance of booming blade damage too. The problem is though, unless you have a reliable way to proc opportunity attacks (say Sentinel feat as an example), your DM may just never have them move. Also, you're getting pretty feat heavy. That all said though, it's certainly doable. Great question.

You can get it from a race if you are OK with not getting a better level 1 feat from variant human

Nice that you found it useful. Thanks!

Yeah, that's how I normally like to do it too.

Actually I've thought about having you on before. Send me an email at the address on my channel and we can figure something out. should be [email protected]

@@thedungeon1578 sure. Will email you in some hours. About to head to bed.

@thedungeon1578 Hey you the two Rob's! I would be totally into this: I already liked your (dungeon Rob) older vid talking about barbarians with your players years ago. And now the two of you - I could easily imagine a certain quality nowhere else to find. And for the possibility to play a One-Shot? A dream might come true. Please, do read me as excited, but not as a fan. I just happen to really like quality content and like to spend my time well. And there are more than enough big dnd YT channels with few insights.

DS is a neat idea; not just for the cleric options, but I usually find it has good role play potential too.

@@thedungeon1578 i like favored of the gods. Haha. In terms of RP, i actually prefer wild magic and aberrant mind. Theres more "meat" to grind from there RP-wise. I feel like divine soul leads to the "blessed with magic by the gods" trope so often. Aberrant mind IMO is a big miss for Larian in BG3. it was the perfect sorc subclass to put in.