Makes sense overidealizing rejecting parents is evolutionarily adaptive for surviving them. Surely then rejecting parents begin to take the impunity with which they can abuse such a child for granted. Sorta makes me think a parent who perhaps does not reject the child for reasons of ego threat or developmental unpreparedness (if there are any) might then be prompted to narcissistic cruelty by the child's cowering anyway. I'm not suggesting it's a kid's fault put pointing out anyone who still raises a biological kid they've rejected must be too stupid to realize the kid as their external locus of control is their own fucked up distortion.

I wasn't ready for this. It's the third of his videos in a row, and it was incremental.... but not incremental enough, know what I mean? It's just growing pains... I'll be ok. Shit, I'm only halfway through.

To see the full-length form of this video go here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6vMiZWDbLl7q7s

To see the full-length form of this video go here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6vMiZWDbLl7q7s

To see the full-length form of this video go here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6vMiZWDbLl7q7s

To see the full-length form of this video go here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJWUnnaChph8rtE

To see the full-length form of this video go here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnq0fqxtpt-MfJY

I think I see what you're saying... Once you know the facts, step one, now it's time to move on. Don't dwell on it. It's in the past, nothing you can do about it. Then you need some space from narcissistic people in your life, and relationships with healthy people... And like you said in step 3, then you go away from that behavior and live a healthy life.

Omlord I can’t w this actually ‘actually causes more problems than what was there. Makin it up. No nurtcha

Incredibly helpful, thank you. My mother and I suffer from my sister. This explained a lot.

I kept hoping for acceptance into my 50s, and trying so hard to please my mother. She died rejecting me and left 2 more rejection messages for me to receive through others later. Some mothers can't love. Let go of false hope ... and learn about healthy personal boundaries.

Very helpful. Thank you Jay.

I had No one for so long, My husband became my someone and the man I call Dad came into my life, and my MIL I call her Mom from about a year into our relationship because of how she is. Finding a new supportive family I made out of friends saved me.

Ultimately, even though I was scapegoated and made to have low self love, I was the one who destroyed my life. So sometimes I just get sick of resenting what I could have been because I wasn't, and that's that.

Sound like me, my mother was never there, people said I would do anything to gain my mother's love. I then projected it onto my step mother, thinking she was a great mother role model. As an adult I realised she was never a mother figure, she was just doing what my dad asked her to. Any time there was a chance to step up as a step parent just for us, she was never there. Like when we went camping, dad had to go back home early and she chose to go back eith him and get my grandmother to stay with us at the camp site for the remaining holiday. No real mother would do that to their child/children

Thank you. You nailed it. I had three siblings, 2 older and 1 younger chaotically distracting my mother if I even thought about getting personal attention. My 1 YR older brother ripped me off my mother's tit breastfeeding. I developed magical thinking. Every elementary teacher always wrote in my report card I daydream too much. My fantasy of love could never match reality, which lead to avoidant attachment. Manipulated, betrayed,humiliated for 60 yrs. My older brother,1 YR, killed his wife by making her work and pay for his toxic existence. Came looking for his entitled housing. I lost it, almost went to the funny farm. No contact, had to sell my house, POA order, flying monkeys and all who drink the family Kool aid.

When I think about my childhood and picture giving my mother affection I am repulsed, I don't know why that is!!She wasn't capable of a single hug either , she was the last person I would go to (never) if I had a problem!

I see my parent’s behavior in your stories and it’s given me a lens into their brains. Sometimes, however, I have a hard time seeing myself in the scapegoat’s reaction. If possible, could you tell a story/use an example, where the scapegoat child doesn’t react to their parents by fawning or pleasing but instead, responds with anger? Not anger towards themselves - I mean a kid who fights back-“delinquent scapegoats?” so to speak? The one who’s put in behavior class and detention is their second home? I came from a home of drama and high intensity dysfunction. I had to fight tooth and nail to survive. I do know there are other kids who were just like me. Kids that fought back and became extremely rebellious. I was lucky - at 17, i realized that I needed to get my life together because by being a delinquent, I was allowing my parents to win. So I changed strategies - applied to college - and become a doctor. I think I struggle with having compassion for myself because I hear stories about other scapegoats and wonder where all the rebellious ones are? If we could have examples of “rebel scapegoat children”, I think it would help us “former delinquents” feel a bit more compassion for ourselves.

You just spoke, near the end, about the heart of the dilemma. You're not allowed to be yourself. Near the end of your video you said when you come out of this you get into relationships where saying what you want and need actually enhances the relationship. That was not at all my experience before now. I very much had that dilemma that you mentioned, that you can't be yourself, State your needs and use your abilities in a relationship.

Never felt safe ever, iam now 55 yrs old 😢

Very helpful video, thank you give me the address I definitely had and have that experience of owing someone, owing someone else, I don't have a right to be happy on my own... And I am very empathic and I did see what you're saying about how that aids in that continuing to look out for others and not to lead one's own life I think you're saying.

💐

Until they realize what was happening and snaps back and disassociates with the family out of self preservation. I am a Scapegoat Child.

where is my comment?????

I have learned through therapy that I can give that child the loving parent I never had. I am learning how that child gets my attention and I then turn to her and validate her feelings and comfort her and let her know that she does not have to handle whatever is overwhelming her that I as the adult will handle the situation and she can relax.

Oh, boy, this hits me right in the "feelies"😢

As a scapegoat I now chase my adult son around hoping he'll love me back but I don't think it's going to happen despite my best efforts and generosity, compassion and love, I'm a absolutely heartbroken Mother 😢💔

Thank goodness for this channel and others like it. I've been trying to find counselors (I don't like the word therapist 😅) who have this kind of specific knowledge about narcissistic abuse for more than 5 years. I'm having a difficult finding such counselors. I think this topic is becoming more widely studied in psychology with every passing year. I look forward to finding someone someday who can assist me beyond self-help.

Spent 10 years in Korea and literally everyone I met there was a “Kira.” They loved taking me out to eat to show off their native English speaker but it gave me the runs so it wasn’t something I looked forward to. Listening to them monologue trying to use obscure vocabulary, incorrectly no less, was even more tiresome when they wouldn’t even let me in edgewise to ask questions or attempt to clarify what they were trying to say. There were also countless layers of abusive behavior I don’t have time to describe all that here.

Thankyou Jay!!! This describes my life so correctly. I had to learn to be independent and resourceful, but there is still a huge hole in my heart too. Nice to hear it addressed.❤

Wow. No words. It’s like you climbed inside my brain and described my story. I’m so shocked how accurate this is. I’ve never heard anyone describe my lived experience so well. So much healing to do - but naming it is step one.

Hi 👋 Jay, I know you specialize in helping scapegoats but as an invisible child (I think), I really resonate with a lot of your work. If you ever decide to do videos on invisible children, that would be amazing. Thanks for all you do!

This is an excellent but very touchy subject especially for us abuse survivors now in our old age. I try my best to meet my own needs and have done so all my life. Now that I’m older with more health issues, I now need help occasionally. I dread the day I can no longer live alone. And with my background in Geriatric Care Managemect, I know all too well the horrors of care homes no matter how much money or not a person has. Not all care givers are equal in experience and compassion. This is a big deal and source of worry and stress for many of us abuse survivors. Asking for what we need is extreamly important, equally important is to have individuals that are safe to depend on. That is the question, who to trust.

It is a very horrible realization that caregivers feel threatened by their own children's strength. I understand now, why I not asvertisemy professional mentor work, even I am good and can help do many people. I am deep inside carry loyalty to my parents which didn't like me seeing me succeeding. They must felt unworthy than. How immature is tgst!?!

I remember feeling jealousy many many times, but I would always doubt that and say to myself "Why would anybody envy me" I was the scapegoat.

I'm 58 and still don't feel safe expressing my needs. Having needs makes me feel very vulnerable and unsafe. I have a narcissist father, a narcissist older sister (who is the controller in our family) and a narcissist exhusband. I was in my early 50's before I even realized that it was okay for me to express any needs at all. Until then, even as a child, I had believed any needs I was unable to meet entirely on my own in private were indicators that I was a failure and a burden. Expressing those need, even emotional ones that I couldn't fill alone, meant that need would become another tool to use against me and scapegoat, guilt, demean and blame me with. I prefer to live an isolated life where I meet my needs myself or go without. I'm slowly healing and now have a very small collection of five good people in my life. But trusting other people enough to share any information about my needs is still very, very hard.

It's the potential for discovery of the other person being uninterested in meeting my need that I struggle with most. I have tended to pick people to associate with that play out the same scapegoating patterns as my family of origin, so going in, I already have a pretty good inkling of what their reaction will be, and I just don't want to open that door. Playing out their negative reaction, trying to be assertive in that moment and hold boundaries, and then realizing that no matter how much I minimize and tolerate their lack of nurturing in our relationship and most of their disinterested behavior in general, the truth is that they aren’t particularly safe. Then I have to decide what to do with that realization. It's exhausting. It takes up so much mental runtime. It's often easier to just do without the need and keep status quo. I'm working really hard rn to be more of a rock the boat person, because one of my main priorities these days is refusing to abandon myself anymore with the "go along to get along survival tactic.

I just had somewhat of an epiphany...I'm the scapegoat in my family. When you spoke about the hypothetical table manners situation in the 1st part of this video a lightbulb went off! I'm not so sure my covert narc mother is evil & maniacal enough to consciously have planned an undertaking for my demise to the point that one day she was unhinged, next day indifferent...yet all for the same exact 'offense'. I more believe, it didn't really matter enough to give it much thought at all. She didn't need to. She'd already established her hatred & disdain for me. The scapegoating was simply just habit. Whenever she was annoyed, stressed or upset about literally anything it guaranteed that my day would also be bad. That's just the way it was. The only thing that varied was to what degree of $hit I'd get. The actual facts of the so-called offense, if there were any, didn't make a bit of difference. My entire existence was to be her emotional dumping ground. I'm sure she also didn't/doesn't want to see me doing well, but I don't think there's too much thought behind her making sure that doesn't happen bc i was so easily baited & manipulated (for 40yrs!) it afforded her the privilege of abXsive laziness. Lucky her. Also, that EXACT thing happened to me. About the EXACT same thing! But instead of being my mom yelling at me, it was her sister, my aunt. Ugh. Those people. 😏 I'm just thankful that I didn't end up like them (incl their mom, my Granny). How miserable must it be to hurt a child, any child, esp your own!? 🥺

This all resonates with me. I'm at the tail-end of one of these friendships- one where my thoughts, experiences, and needs are quickly glossed over (actually not even responded to) so they can get back to telling me everything going on in their life. It took me a long time to become aware of it, which speaks to how normal that treatment was for me. Then, once I became aware, I went through phases of "Well, maybe I can fix it. They care about this friendship too." Nope. I couldn't fix it and they don't care that they aren't giving me anything back in the relationship. So I've been trying to do the slow fade (our kids are friends so it's tricky). Problem is, this person is like velcro and follows me into every new thing I do and every new friendship I try to enter. I literally have to keep secrets from them to try to find new friends 😅 So.... yeah. But what I can't get over is how long I put up with all if this. It makes me sad for my past self that I didn't recognize this behavior as a problem for years. Then I started noticing that if I spent time with this person I always left with a sick feeling in my stomach.

Thanks Jay. You're one of the most counter-shaming KZbinrs on this subject.

My dad gets to be as angry as he wants, as often as he wants. But it's never ever my turn. By coincidence, it just happens that he's never ever done anything wrong, thus it obviously wouldn't make any sense for anyone to be angry with him.

Thank you for educating other therapists on these issues. There is definitely a shortage of folks who grasps these concepts without patients having to educate them.

I have been suffering with PCOS from my early teenage and now it is turned into very severe hormonal imbalance and early manopause due to the stress I have been facing due to the narcissistic environment in family. Marriage was also with narcissistic partner and in laws were highly narcissistic. But, finally out of the toxic marriage.

Every time I listen to one of your videos, another light bulb goes off. Thank you 🙏

I found this right on time at a point where I am really trying to reinforce boundaries even in my mind and it is hard sometime because of the ingrained reaction of fear of being wrong. This is very helpful though because I want to feel safe within myself and I can see that this is the only way how although it feels scary at times. The people that made me feel bad about my boundaries are/were insecure disturbed people. It had nothing to do with me at all. I was right and am right when I know am.

I'm finding that this compartment is a warren and filled with secret doors where i keep discovering that I'm unconsciously (still) waiting for my parent to 'understand' or 'wake up' and love me in the way I have loved them. Very sad but something I can now realise is there (over and over) and can close up (over and over). Stay in reality and pursue the love of oneself ❤ you'll have your back far better than your parent ever ever will.

Thank you for your valuble help

This helps me realize why I experienced such anxiety, sadness, despair and loneliness despite being with the parent I thought was “safe” (who was less scary than the rageful, alcoholic parent, but had problems of their own).

How would you fit neurodivergence into this framework? Many neurodivergent people (e.g. autistic people) are not able to be self-sufficient or "fill their own cup" and need help to co-regulate. Would you modify the framework at all to account for this?

Directionless...Jay you couldn't describe it any better than that...