You may have fallen into a rabbit hole loop when you accept there is no free will, that we make up stories and reasons why we do things we do, yet, free will, is in doing things this way?

A few people have written to ask about the paper we mention. It is here advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/advs.202303575

sorry what's the name of the landscape designer and also about the twitter reference about love alien inter specific love? it would be really amazing to have these references:)

Thank you for this interesting conversation, Andrea. Trying to understanding Hegel is a tough slog, but worth the effort. You and professor Ng did a good job.

the audio version is at kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4uZmZSdgKmDisksi=ZSHhlcQJ7JEMYcD0 or on your favorite podcast platform pod.link/YZLzbj

the video version is at kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2HIgYWPhLKGmrMsi=l5zj-5ymTBcmIuVN or listen in your favorite podcast place pod.link/YZLzbj

"Die freie Liebe ist die Liebe, die sich nicht an die äußeren Umstände und Bedingungen bindet, sondern sich in ihrer eigenen Innerlichkeit und Subjektivität begründet. Sie ist die Liebe, die sich nicht an die Gesetze und Pflichten der bürgerlichen Gesellschaft bindet, sondern sich in ihrer eigenen Freiheit und Selbstbestimmung bewegt." "Free love is the love that does not bind itself to external circumstances and conditions, but rather grounds itself in its own innerliness and subjectivity. It is the love that does not bind itself to the laws and duties of civil society, but rather moves in its own freedom and self-determination." -- Hegel, 1827/28, Vorlesungen über die Philosophie des Geistes, § 432, p. 234

"Inseln des Seligen, wo die Liebe wohnt, Wo die Freiheit blüht, und die Schönheit thront, Wo die Seele sich frei und ungebunden bewegt, Und die Liebe, die Freie, in aller Herrlichkeit steigt. "Die Liebe, die Freie, die mich umfangen hat, Die mich in ihre Arme geschlossen, und mich beglückt hat, Die mich gelehrt hat, die Schönheit zu sehen, Und die Freiheit zu fühlen, die in ihr wohnt. "O, die Freie Liebe, die mich befreit hat, Von den Fesseln der Konvention, und der gesellschaftlichen Pflicht, Die mich gelehrt hat, die Natur zu lieben, Und die Schönheit, die in ihr wohnt, zu erkennen. "Die Freie Liebe, die mich umfangen hat, Die mich in ihre Arme geschlossen, und mich beglückt hat, Die mich gelehrt hat, die Freiheit zu fühlen, Und die Schönheit, die in ihr wohnt, zu erkennen." "Der Archipelagus" von Friedrich Hölderlin. 🤗

37:00 Life as Process / Process Philosophy & A.N. Whitehead: Autopoiesis -- Humberto Maturana & Francisco Varela. 1:05:12 Continuity (and continuum) of life: Michael Levine; Joscha Bach. ... Also, a counterpoint to Hegel's focus on 'contradiction': "Hamlet thinks syncretically, reconciling rather than banishing paradox". Jonathan S. Jackson, "The Moral Spiritual Vision of Edward de Vere" @10:37 (KZbin).

Thank you

two of my favourite girls. A blessing to behold

wonderful alive and …loving…

Why Andrea's interviews are so great is because she familiarizes herself with the person's work and then asks about things that she's curious about that were not covered. Thus making it a real exchange. Not mechanical call and response: Are either of you familiar with Nicolescu Basarab? Physicist and poet. The Hidden Third talks about reconciliation. Blake: Joy and Woe are woven fine.... A garment for the soul divine. What a beautiful reconciliation. Iain: The brain is something that mediates experience in consciousness. Beautiful. Concise. Clear. Intuition, like rational thinking, even epistemologically grounded reasoning, must be calibrated for appropriate confidence. We never have all the information. Intuitively gleaned data is data. Data gleaned through the senses is data. Data is data. It must be massaged before it becomes information. Iain: There's no prizes for getting stuck on the ladder! Righto! The whole POINT of science is to prove yourself wrong. To come up with a more complete or reality based model than you had before. That's why scientism is such a problem. The arrogance of scientism advocates claim to be scientists. They are not. They are false prophets of a false method. Spiral along a ladder: Helix A screw thread is a helix.

1 minute 51 Constantly changing world. You're changing it for me and I'm changing it for you. Yes. We influence each other, intentionally or now. 1 hour 5 minutes Are thermostats alive? Do they have consciousness? No. And this dialogue which criticizes devolution to the binary thinking we tend to do, is great. Bright line between thermostats and us rests on the notion of affordances. What is an affordance? What I can do. Thermostat doesn't have an ego to plan future actions. Beautiful Andrea and Karl. Principle of least action? Gibbs Free Energy. We are lazy for a reason. :>) I had to do free energy calculations in engineering school. Although I have applied the ideas of boundary energy to human social structures. Would like to hear more about curiosity and epistemic affordances. We watch TV, we follow our curiosity. A thermostat does not. 1:26 Sensory entropy and how it relates to my beliefs about their causes, if I got that right. Hmmm. I have listened several times. These are definitely wide extensions of standard engineering thermodynamic terms. Although I think entropy as a concept has entered the broader milieu, I'm struggling to grok "sensory entropy." Is that realizing that Kant was right, that we never know "the thing in itself," and we have to keep our minds open to many possibilities of the "causes" of our sensory experience? 1:31 Nested levels of reality. I really struggled with thermo in school. Almost dropped out of engineering school because of it. I later, much later, realized that I struggled BECAUSE the professors either never defined the FRAME of REFERENCE in WHICH the equations worked. I found a new textbook MUCH later which talked about how this was a problem with the old texts on Thermodynamics. This was a specialized class for materials engineers. The idea of "The spirit of fractals" and in general, nest layers of reality, are powerful ideas. The choosing of the frame of reference, it may be argued, is the KEY factor in critical thinking. Where does the model under consideration work? What are it's limitations. 1:38 and nested levels of the brain: outer layer is our skin, our ear drums, our taste buds, etc., and at some deep point in the brain, maybe deep not primarily by distance from the skull, the sensory signals are merged into an experience. So this same "structural element" where this happens could be related to synesthesia during psychedelic experience. If I understood properly. Very interesting. Thanks so much for this conversation. I will try to post the comments on the video version as well.

1 minute 51 Constantly changing world. You're changing it for me and I'm changing it for you. Yes. We influence each other, intentionally or now. 1 hour 5 minutes Are thermostats alive? Do they have consciousness? No. And this dialogue which criticizes devolution to the binary thinking we tend to do, is great. Bright line between thermostats and us rests on the notion of affordances. What is an affordance? What I can do. Thermostat doesn't have an ego to plan future actions. Beautiful Andrea and Karl. Principle of least action? Gibbs Free Energy. We are lazy for a reason. :>) I had to do free energy calculations in engineering school. Although I have applied the ideas of boundary energy to human social structures. Would like to hear more about curiosity and epistemic affordances. We watch TV, we follow our curiosity. A thermostat does not. 1:26 Sensory entropy and how it relates to my beliefs about their causes, if I got that right. Hmmm. I have listened several times. These are definitely wide extensions of standard engineering thermodynamic terms. Although I think entropy as a concept has entered the broader milieu, I'm struggling to grok "sensory entropy." Is that realizing that Kant was right, that we never know "the thing in itself," and we have to keep our minds open to many possibilities of the "causes" of our sensory experience? 1:31 Nested levels of reality. I really struggled with thermo in school. Almost dropped out of engineering school because of it. I later, much later, realized that I struggled BECAUSE the professors either never defined the FRAME of REFERENCE in WHICH the equations worked. I found a new textbook MUCH later which talked about how this was a problem with the old texts on Thermodynamics. This was a specialized class for materials engineers. The idea of "The spirit of fractals" and in general, nest layers of reality, are powerful ideas. The choosing of the frame of reference, it may be argued, is the KEY factor in critical thinking. Where does the model under consideration work? What are it's limitations. 1:38 and nested levels of the brain: outer layer is our skin, our ear drums, our taste buds, etc., and at some deep point in the brain, maybe deep not primarily by distance from the skull, the sensory signals are merged into an experience. So this same "structural element" where this happens could be related to synesthesia during psychedelic experience. If I understood properly. Very interesting. Thanks so much for this conversation. I will try to post the comments on the video version as well.

Human experience matters. We shall not mistake the map for the territory. We are a part of the world, not apart from the world. 🌱✨ Thank you for making this podcast! 🙏

Andrea it strikes me you might be a terrific interlocutor with Jan Zwicky (amazing poet-philosopher), and HL Hix (likewise uniquely)? So enjoy these mysteries you tickle adroitly

Good stuff:)

let's go!

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Glad the algorithm brought me here. Your guest is in my wheelhouse of interests (complexity and nonlinearity). I'll seek out his book. The isolation he mentioned is felt by many. Remember we may work alone but this work will serve as the 'adjacent possible'. I feel I must mention some good references. A great complexity researcher and framework developer (with network node-based applications built - so useful tools).He's been a consultant to business and government leaders. Dave Snowden who I believe is of a mind that his tools would suit the matters of societal climate actions. He has been interacting on youtube talking with Gregory Bateson's daughter Nora. Another outlet that's provided good researchers - made up of solution seekers who used game theory in seeking. Their group called 'Plan B' disbanded (the project failed) but the participants separately are still working on these issues. Daniel Schmachtenberger is the main one to suggest. He draws from theosophy through the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti (considered by some an anti-guru) A complexity philosopher I'd suggest is Alicia Juarrero. Sorry for the lengthy unload. I've been consuming a lot for a few years. One wish I have is a simpler way to communicate the issue and seeking of solutions. I'm looking at Chomsky's Linguistics for answers there. Bottom line is Snowden's 'SenseMaker' software exists and is used for emergent solutions already. Search "Cynefin framework".

Seems you’ve been on fire lately, Andrea, with these amazing drops. I can hardly keep up! 🧐

Nice. I didn't know you were a fan of one of my favorite people of all time; Lynn Margulis.:) I was just writing about the kitten study from 'embodied mind' this morning, and always happy to hear from Thompson. Thank you friend and happy new year!

If human attention is the focal point for an intense, totally dynamic, mobile concentration of consciousness, conscious of itself, then it would be interesting to have a skill in modulating attention such that it does not lose its fluidity by being imprisoned by the claims of its necessary affordances or "priors". This attention would have access to unimaginable, vast, realms of experience. So then the question arises: Is there a "Way" or exploration worth doing in the vastness; or do you float along in the void, just trying to survive a while longer, enjoying whatever arises?

Using the dichotomy of the blind men/women and the elephant, the question may be the following: out of pure necessity, can we be the blind men/women, feeling our individual affordances and at the same time be the whole elephant?

Deeply grateful for the profound treat

Perhaps attention/awareness/consciousness are intimately associated with the Markov blanket which is our interface with the unknown. On the one hand, according to the minimization of free energy, attention/awareness/consciousness is desperately seeking to inhabit a predictable stable world, boring, with perfect homeostasis, almost dead, and on the other, in some paradoxical way, with curiosity, actively engaging with the unknown which ultimately has no stability and is a Cosmic energetic flow that constantly changes. So there is the intense, attention absorbing, survival necessary grasping for stability while in the same body is an impulse to engage the mystery of the Universe, curiosity, seeking "Freedom from the Known -Krishnamurti". It would seem that in terms of acknowledging what our lives are all about, in the current era, the bias is toward the static and the stable and denial of the flow from which those apparent stabilities arise. There are teachers that point out a way of modulating attention/awareness/consciousness to balance on the Markov blanket and gaze out at the Mystery without fear and without the domination of priors. It is like flying through, with balance and level wings, an incomprehensible, vast, swirling void of unknown energies... probably not recommended for the faint of heart.

Free energy, free will, I understand nothing, but it seems to me, that someone in Karls household has bad taste about curtains.

Salami

FRISTON!!!!!! Simply cannot *wait* to dig into this! Thanks, Andrea!!!!

audio only ad free is at kzbin.info/www/bejne/d2LZlWiDhN-hiasfeature=shared and on your favorite podcast platform pod.link/YZLzbj

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Excellent discussion I wish the two of you would have a zoom reading group on the subject. I would love to participate. I’m a student of Bruno Latour.

this is NOT the more controversial talk with Bernardo and Andrea about political issues, that one is here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoKWd3aCdrSsa6csi=9kAIpqn81pwJD1p0

Thanks Andrea, best podcast episode I have ever heard with Karl Friston. Great to hear him talk about flow. I still think that Free Energy has no flow, but I resonate now more with the principle.

I am so limit in my mind and far away of ability to be so eloquent and clever as I can see many views are, based to their response. But the fact that I appreciate so much what Bernardo is trying to teach us ( I have to brag that I had honer to meet him personally in Amsterdam). So the fact that I am so much fascinated with his philosophy. The fact that I believe that his philosophy is closer to the true than anything I have read so far gives me satisfaction. It makes me think that I am not so stupid as I considered myself🤣

2:01:13 Karl's parting comment reveals a lot about the philosophy behind minimising free energy. There's a freer energy principle: guiding

I love how full and rich a world Karl lives in explained so simply. I do believe he's largely missing ΞIII၁² energy of intersecting shared-intent {entent}∔

You have to knew that: Science has missed that the little brain is a 3D scanner. The retina is there to chose what to scan. The little brain scans X Y and Z when focusing on a point. From the yellow spot come the colors R G B to eatch point. This immediately becomes a mockup that we update when refocusing. ALL our minds is scanned in 3D (X Y Z). This becomes our consciousness, Thanks to dark energy. N B No knowledge is coming from the retina. The brain use only koordinates in 3D. We live in a 3D mockup of an 3D world, even words are an mockup. only the focusing point is reality. The brain creates human intelligens (HI), not AI The little brain is also an copier

30 seconds in. I hear you. Amen. At least you verbalize; aside from a few friends and colleagues, i've been at this for years, have so much to share -- but haven't stepped forward. At least not yet. Philosophy, academia, the West, etc: Way too in words & our heads. Travel away from the west, deep into non-academic, non-intellectual circles, closer to children in what is left of rapidly dying tradiotional & indigenous societies, reconnecting with animals, trees, soil, water, fire, wind ... all beyond words and that very narrow bandwidth that the analytical intellect pretends to wield as an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-dominating portal into all of reality. Which it is not. Greetings from the Andes.

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Happy Christmastime/New Year to everyone🎄 Besides, the lovely sincere introduction, this so much reminds of _The Emperor's New Clothes..._ 😅 Please do thoughtful factchecking on each of the beautifully told stories, dear listeners, even on those that were told to Wired already. For honesty's sake.

consciousness most likely exists as a cell, atom, or electron in the brain in the brain

Andrea, could you put out audio-only without subtitles? (them calling one of our favorite people 'Baron Bernardo', and later infamously seductive snake oil entertainer 'Mark's homes' etc) 🤪 The deep question here is whether all the things that are currently called "unexperiencing" are experiencing or not. If we don't have metaconscious reports to work with, then we need an electromagnetic signature. An analogy could be: If we want to know the elements present in stars in distant galaxies, we'd use spectral lines measured.🤗

Do you mean that my Markov blankets are wrapped in Markov blankets!?!

This is why I admire you, Andrea. You are so smart and intelligent. You also seem to be struggling with this. Trying to understand life like the rest of us. That is normal, whatever normal is. 🤔. Me? I’m old and losing brain cells. 😁. I will have to listen again. In the meantime, I will listen and learn from you. I would also like to take this time to wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

uncut version in video form is here kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYjSpKOGaceVirssi=jNu4X0yhQmhUX8tj and the research ramblings are here kzbin.info/www/bejne/bp6rZXp9er17hqssi=ZhWjsoOayQQ3NNle

diary ramblings from around the time of the podcast episode with Bernardo kzbin.info/www/bejne/ganCg2Ovn9N4pKcsi=KRh3n2lwpuFYbr9h and i also reference the podcasts i've done with Mark Solms here kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHaknWSDadOHp6ssi=RsXD2_SVfhSqLauF the subtitles on this research diary video are all messed up, sorry for that--they were auto-generated

have to come back and rewatch