This series is amazing! I have spent months trying to find the causes for my dogs behaviour changes, and this really feels like a lightbulb moment. If I understand correctly behaviour mod starts with what might be called „state management“ or „mood management“ and only then the behaviour is addressed.

Thank you! (I could have followed better without the music) 🙂

Such a great episode. Wish I had learned some of these things from you and Ivan earlier! I have so much still to undo, but have made so much progress! Critical with a 150# dog that weighs more than I do.

For a kid that avoided public speaking, you are doing a great job now! Your content is fantastic, always deep and meaningful but never a scientific word soup that requires a PhD to decipher it! Thank you!

Apparently this turned out to be a hoax.

Yes.

what is the cause of an extreme startle reflex in a bichon to noise and movements? e.g., a quiet drawer opening, a footstep on a carpeted stairway, a person in a nearby cushioned chair shifting weight in the seat, etc.

Lovely video with two of the best professionals in the dog world. Thank you and looking forward to part 2!

On the subject of eating while anxious- why do some trainers say the dog won’t eat while they're ancious when they do eat while scared?

Thanks for sharing

Had to with my youngest dog because of the law but my other 3 weren't

I am glad I found your channel. Really interesting videos. This one was interesting too, however I am curious as to why you categorize grounding a kid as positive punishment? This would much rather fit in the negative punishment category, as what happens, you take away good things, like going out, doing fun stuff, etc. There is nothing inherently bad about being in ones room. The punishment is not having the alternative to do better stuff. So what is your reasoning behind categorizing it as positive punishment?

Like Jeny told at the TWC "Why dont you put it on tigers"?😂

I rewatch this often ❤ so much good information. I find it completely relative to my history with dogs. As a child growing up without a pet dog, I would venture out looking for street dogs. There’s a different relationship when you don’t have a leash and collar, you have to be in agreement with the animal, if you want the company of the dogs who roam free.

Excellent, thank you.

30:05 🤌🤌🤌

Fake news! BSL has NOTHING to do with dog bites. BSL is about extreme attacks and fatalities. It has proven 100% successful where ever BSL has been enforced.

I’ve always heard to never let the dog win since that can disrupt their respect of the pecking order and cause them to seek to challenge their owner for dominance.

@01:34:21 I personally agree that is very possible indeed.

this is gonna be a life changer for my Belgium shepherd

Some trainers are starting to use play to help with reactivity / aggression…. How does play impact the amygdala? Or is it just lower stress in your opinion? I’ve seen play help with reactivity in a way that suggests that there is far more going on….

I can see every way I messed up as an unexperienced dog owner. Everything you've said, especially about in the puppy stage, shows in dog.

loving the podcast, thank you both. sorry I'm typing as I watch so apologies if I pre-empt thing, I have read the study. do you think it would it make any difference do you think if you used a rabbit/furry type lure instead of a poly bag? what training method, if any do you think may have worked on the 2 dogs that got kicked out? I know that if you gave my dog the choice, he'd chase lorries, he'd hunt foxes, squirrels & cats (we're largely urban), if country lifestyle, it would be deer & sheep, even people he'd chase if you let him - he doesn't even need to see them to start hunting behaviours. e-collar works & he still very happy dog overall. I feel the same with zoo positive reinforcement vs real world, it wouldn't work if the animals were born wild and remained wild, except in a very rare cases. my dog is very much controlled to fit into our human world, i do try to forfil him as much as I'm able to such as man trailing, scent work and play. In hindsight he could have done with staying with his mother for longer because he's rude socially with other dogs and I don't have a good older dog to help teach him those doggy skills, so he doesn't interact with strange dogs. my last dog was totally different to this one, she was very easy with very low predation. with kids it similar, you can explain to kids what the consequences will be and some will still go do the thing anyway. some don't repeat the behaviour after punishment but others like me with adhd absolutely will regardless because the dopamine is what we chase & even that varies by personality, not all of us are extreme sports persons for example, some like puzzles instead, some like both. I think we do misinterpret fear in dogs, its something that is quite complex because in some ways it teaches i.e. the monkey learns not to tease the tiger only after its seen something aversive, it the helps to keep the monkey safe in future. being aware of surroundings stops so many bad things that happening, just how aware are women especially at night alone. ptsd wise I have that and it took a big kick up the butt with my dog because he was becoming overly reactive due to my fears, I had to control my own fears to help him behave better, so it can also spread within a group - this was unreasonable fears that were not present except in my own mind & related to stalking so everyone was a potential threat of info & location because stalker would use other people to gather info on me. this was internalised fear because I felt I couldn't defend myself the way my body wanted to/express my fear properly through a bigger fear of police and social work causing long term issues for my kids. I do wonder how many 'force free & positive only' trainers are actually in a state of survival themselves or have at very least had experienced bad stuff happening to them in their younger years like domestic abuse or sexual assaults and really they themselves have c-ptsd. training was very different 10 years ago and was different again 20 years ago, that I agree with, we are making steps in right directions :) bad people are bad people and they will use anything, even their own body to do bad things with. Shieldk9 brought back some of tools he found when in europe, think he showed them to larry krohn, they were horrific compared to the actual tools! that's what desperate people end up doing. Error free learning doesn't exist in my mind, everything has a consequence, we fall when we learn to walk, we get corrected to learn to speak properly, even if you follow instructions at some point there will be a different situation where you cannot follow the instructions to the letter because it doesn't work in that situation, how it is done depends on the scenario, context etc. the opposite applies also with supporting and encouraging the correct choices. like most things in life its all about the balance, too much of either side brings consequences and reactions in the body. its the true meaning of yin yang, little good in the bad and a little bad in the good, together they balance out. novelty is so true , again its another thing that adhd folk chase - I often wonder how much an adhd person's brain is like a dogs, especially since I have always got along with animals better than humans. impulsive, variable, novelty all plays a part in that, again its mostly dopamine chasing behaviours to one extent or the other. adhd people often lack future sight (I have a variety of unfinished projects🤣) and very much live in the moment with time blindness. with the ball & treat scenario - I used that method to get the ball back & help teach an out, he'd swap The ball for food, then get the ball back, otherwise he would win all the time cos he also hand nipped or grabbed arm instead when young and he loves to whole body tug & body slam when he brings ball back. the only animal my dog grabbed was an already injured squirrel that was under a bush, it couldn't have ran away due to its injuries (possible other dog or a car)! he is quite primitive in that way where if you gave him the choice he'd take the sick, infirm and elderly over the healthy - that is something predators will also do. with pet dogs I think we often see it in some dogs where they go after old people, children or another infirm animal i.e. the neighbours elderly dog. me & my dog have defo not always been on the same page & its something we are still working on. he sometimes maligators me & I sometimes stand on his toes 😂 I think adult dogs still play partly because their basic needs are met, along side impulses. I agree ivan on human/dog coevolution origins although I think it was a stick that enhance the relationships, possibly a kid out with the dog gathering sticks 🤣. oh yes, we had issues with arousal, its much better now through lots of different concepts being used (not medications). The arousal prison - oh, I know all too well, grew up being told to sit still, be quiet, not interrupt etc etc etc - all it did was cause depression and anxiety due to masking, dogs cannot be that much different especially when we are medicating them for it. I do hope we can have conversations with people of differing opinions in the future, however i'm seeing more and more polarisation and cultish behaviours amongst people, espcially online - that is harming everything and since i'm reading Nexus by yoval noah harari i can't help but think this is directly related to algorithms on platforms that are feeding these extremities Thank you both very much, I love these these types of podcasts.

Such important research that directly translates to humans. Informative and thought provoking from a dog owner’s perspective as well as a parent/grandparent’s. Thank you!

I could listen to Michael ellis 24/7 and never get tired of learning from him. I've spent days and weeks on end binge watching his videos. Sometimes, it is the same video multiple times, and each time, I learn something new. He has a way of explaining things that many other trainers I listen to lack. Take Ivan Balabanov for instance, the man is a genius, especially with his outlook on play. But often I wish I could get inside his head and have Michael explain to me what he's trying to convey. Because I know it's something profound that I'm missing and so eager to learn. If I had the money I would take his course in a heartbeat. I know it would truly help me. And I'm not a professional trainer. I'm just a person with a dog who has behavioral issues, which in turn has ignited a passion for understanding and training dogs.

Really appreciate this discussion and the fact that Michael does go into specific examples of what he does vs other people. It’s obviously not enough to learn how to train a dog from scratch, but unlike some other trainers, he’s not just marketing so you can pay for a seminar/his school lol

This was such an insightful discussion! I really appreciated how you emphasized the importance of play in developing a dog's relationship with their owner. It's fascinating to think about how much play influences not just training, but also the overall bond and understanding between us and our dogs. The struggle during play really reflects the dynamics of our interactions. Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts!

Wow thank you so much for this information ❤

Love michael ❤

Why won't Ivan and the authors share the videos from the study? Instead of saying "if I showed you" just show us. Unfortunately, the process used as the "reinforcement based" training is not how any reinforcement based trainer would have approached the goal, so the study didn't actually compare force-free methods to anything, because those methods weren't employed. Additionally, it is interesting to me that all the dogs in the e-collar yelped, and yet e-collar trainers constantly claim that it isn't painful. Don't even get me started on the ethics here. Dogs shouldn't be subjected to this.

Proof that zoo animals are starved? Don't make up BS.

Facts check: - the study doesn't do what it claims to do, that is to compare training methods. Why? Because groups B and C were NOT trained to stop chasing the lure. Seriously. - the study doesn't do what it claims to do, that is to address the welfare concerns - except for noticing that all the dogs in the shock group yelped in pain when subjected to electric shocks. Amazingly, this doesn't raise any concern. - there's no investigation whatsoever about the possible fallout, so making claims about it is dishonest. Note that they did not consider other stress-related behaviors like lip licking, supposedly because they occurred too quickly. Cortisol levels weren't properly investigated. - the practical parts of the study were done entirely by Balabanov and his men, without any input or implication from reward-based trainers. 3 web articles on recall training are cited, but their advices were ignored. - the efficacy of the shock training is not 100% as falsely claimed. 2 dogs (out of 8) did not respond to training within the 20 shocks limit and were removed (rather than being failed), and in test 4 only 2 dogs did not chase the lure, with other 2 stopping when they heard "banana". - Balabanov's study was published in a predatory journal, avoiding any peer review. The study Ivan's talking against was peer reviewed, and it's far from the only one.

Ivan, how did you manage to completely botch the treats training in your "study"? I mean, you didn't even attempt to do a basic recall. Come on, saying "banana" and dropping a treat in a bowl, with the dog 23m away? Nobody trains like this.

Thank you Dr. Melanie and Ivan for the interesting and thoughtful conversation about a very divisive topic.

Personally I think an environment without a healthy amount of fear or discomfort is the breeding ground for depression. Think of living in an utopian environment where there is no stress all your needs are met without challenge or risk of failure. Is that what you want for your dogs, you want to manage your dogs environment into this white space of neutral emotion to prevent them from being over stimulated all because you were too dogmatic to introduce them to a bit of controlled fear or momentary discomfort to teach them a correct behavior response to the stimulus. That sounds more like something a Zoo keeper might to. Personally I want my dog to join in on my adventure with all the fear, anxiety and triumphant moments that come along with it! Don't be a passenger in your dogs life, take them on an adventure!

Thank you both. Love your work. Great information 🐾

Is play the same as work in the dog's mind?

This is amazing! I find I am using food only strategically now with my dog. It just started to seem irrelevant as I learned what switched her ion, what she loves to do, which is hunt, retrieve and hunt again. I am creative with toys I use, but she will absolutely look at me like I'm nuts if I offer food in these play sessions. We are now playing cooperatively and it is so much fun!!❤

I have an analogy that many people can understand, particularly Americans such as myself, regarding the power of overcoming fear as well as the difference between fear and feeling afraid. Here in America, as in many other places in the world, almost everyone drives a car, or at least knows how to drive one if they don't have their own. We also know that driving a car can be extremely dangerous, driving a car requires knowing the rules of the road and to not follow them can result in serious injury, serious financial loss, or death. When I was a teenager and I was first learning how to drive I was quite honestly terrified. I remember my mom screaming at me to BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE when she was worried I wasn't slowing down fast enough. Driving was quite stressful the first few times as I was figuring out exactly how the car handled, while also being very aware of what was at stake. Over time, however, I mastered the art of driving, and I know the rules of the road. I also, more or less, trust that the other people driving around me are similarly skilled and have at least the knowledge to stay in their lane and to stop at red lights and so on and so forth. I have been driving for decades now, and I am very rarely feeling afraid while driving. But I know not to drive recklessly, I know not to suddenly swerve into oncoming traffic, i know to stop at intersections. Overcoming feeling afraid allows me to drive to and from work everyday without having a panic attack. That does not mean that I will ever forget that the activity I'm engaging in is dangerous, and what the dangers are. Of course I'm afraid of getting into a car accident. They are quite common. My desire to not get in an accident keeps me alert, aware, and following the rules. But I do not *feel* afraid the whole time I'm driving. I am not gripping the steering wheel thinking oh I better not cross the yellow line oh I better not cross the yellow line. I simply know that if I don't cross the yellow line then I will (probably) be fine.

Thank you both for this conversation!!!

Keep up the great work and hopefully you and Ivan can get together again. Perhaps, with your academic status, you can help expose the pseudoscience coming from the cookie-pushers.

Frequent, severe, noncontingent aversive events will lead to behavioral fallout. This is not even punishment this is just abuse. In contrast: the *limited* use of well-timed and well-measured aversive events; that are contingent on a behavior and delivered on a continuous schedule; using a tool that has minimal risk of injury and creates minimal association between the aversive event and owner; in combination with LOTS of freedom and positive reinforcement; will only benefit the dogs welfare (safety and fulfillment)

I've bin waiting for u to speak to Ivan since the 2 part series with Michael Ellis I know this is gonna be a great episode

Excellent discussion. Thank you for this

Thanks so much for this conversation Dr Melanie and Ivan!

I’m not a dog trainer. I agree with Ivan about fall out. I have trained my dog not to chase a rabbit onto a train track. She just brushed past the aversion and sort of said “ah ok, so I can’t do that… so what else can we do’ She happily plays with a rabbit tug with me. And that is within seconds of receiving an aversive not to chase a live animal

Wow, this was a very high level conversation.

You're familiar with Dr Jaak Panksepp's work with PLAY. It's really important for social rules, bonding, safety, etc. What it actually does to the brain, is remarkable. It's not a goal, but a primary need. Not an expectation based on breed or our expectations. It's why See Stuart Brown understood it with kids diagnosed with certain disorders, it helped them increase test scores.

is this episode available on spotify?

As a scientist, can affirmatively state that the design and methods used are at all adequate to begin comparing efficacy and welfare of shock collars vs "force free"? I.e. is having the compulsion trainer also do the force free training acceptable? Is dropping a treat in a bowl after a cue the accepted force free method to disrupt prey drive? Balabanov said "it's like writing a book" but Wynne posted on FB "but at no point did they contribute to the design (or analysis, or write-up) of the study". You can find very detailed criticisms of the "study" and only the dog selection is discussed. Missed opportunity. And lots of people are waiting for the release of the videos.