010: Flexibility/Mobility for Vertical Jump, Speed and Injury Reduction- The PJF Podcast

Check out pjfperformance.net to join our vert code programs!
Some of the literature cited in this podcast:
Painscience.com “Quite a Stretch” www.painscienc...
Stiff muscles are a counterintuitive superpower of NBA athletes
www.google.com...
Charlie Weingroff “The Stretch Code” Lecture www.otpbooks.c...
Eccentric training for increased length + length/tension relationship research
static1.squares...

[@jakedevine6561]

Use this as a “never thought I’d be in a squid cult” button. LOVE THIS PODCAST.

[@ThePetieProject]

Please have knees over toes guy ben patrick on the podcast. Would love to hear both of your input on some of these topics

[@Michael.S.Ryan.]

I just started both programs. Gonna bullet proof myself with Kneesovertoesguy and then maximize with PJF

[@bramk7050]

I'd love that too!!!

[@williamscarcia7903]

Yes cuz that dude says the complete opposite of what our main man here says at the begging of the pod

[@arproformance3032]

I thought that as well, but I believe that Paul is agreeing with Ben (KneesOverToesguy) in that developing flexibility through loading is good - Ben does that with the loaded Jefferson curl, loaded piriformis work etc. I don't think that Ben suggests straight up static stretching either. The one nuance I'm seeing is that Paul is talking about training specific joint angles for hops specifically, while Ben is talking overall knee health. He's talking about full ROM, and developing strength at the end ranges. Paul talks about the value of full ROM based on each of our specific needs (lack of mobility and flexibility, time of season etc). I'm also trying to reconcile the knowledge being put out by both dudes!

[@somewhataboveaverageguy9053]

@@arproformance3032 in this podcast pj talks about how eccentric workouts through full range of motion takes your optímal knee jumping angle and changes it with an example on a study that saw peoples optimal knees angle for maximum vertical jump change from a 50 degree angle to a 71 after doing said movements. Do you think that this is an unavoidable truth about Ben Patrick’s Tom platz and poloquin style full ROM exercises?

[@mattturner1037]

Im a structural engineer so I feel like a pretty smart squid when we start talking about plastic and elastic deformation - great analogy! great podcast!

[@melcaaccad3957]

Flexibility Intro 5:06 Can we even lengthen muscles? 7:01 Best way to lengthen muscle fibers(Full Range Eccentrics) 15:20 Should we stretch for better recovery? 29:41 Should we stretch in our dynamic warmup? 44:55

[@nolimitsbasket]

Another incredible episode guys! I'd love to see an episode focusing on all the factors of being a good on the ball defender, and how to improve them, other than just becoming overall more athletic. There seems to be very limited (none!) information out there as to what is important for defense (other than the traditional teaching points, that aren't really grounded in science at all) in terms of: a) body positions b) feet positions c) balance d ) footwork / how to move Would love to see that!

[@enescohuntejr]

I Need A Part 2 With Mr.Kneesovertoesguy

[@enescohuntejr]

You Trainers Need To Pair Up Instead Of Trying To Be Separate, Only Way You Learn Or Get To Challenge Each Other Is If You Step In To Each Others World. We Need A Part 2 With Mr.KOT

[@MattFoss848]

it would be interesting because he does a lot of stretching and strength through length

[@kakasvk]

@@MattFoss848 PJF backs up everything with a research+ he has a lot of accessory tools, force plates, measuring power outputs and everything.. and that is difference to Ben Patrick (KOT). More (extreme) range of motion as Ben preaches actually inhibits performance, and research backs that up. So if you want performance, power translated to your sport, go with PJF. If you want to be more flexible, strong at wider ranges of motion (usually not too much specific in most sports, so useless in this regard, and even hindering), not doing this to get as much athletic as you could be, and for overall health, go with KOT. Not saying that PJF wouldn't get you healthy, but if your goal is not to improve performance a lot, go with KOT. Also not saying that KOT won't improve your performance, it will, but not as much as PJF.

[@davemercure8112]

@@kakasvk but dont you think that it would be a good thing to get healthy first and then go and try to reach your performance to the next level

[@kakasvk]

@@davemercure8112 Yes, that's the best way

[@thecomposedone]

What goes up but never comes down? Your age

[@EVERYTHING-dc2od]

Andrew Thoppil well your actual age doesn’t. You see how old gabriella union is compared to d wade

[@EVERYTHING-dc2od]

Andrew Thoppil well how does someone show how old or young ones body is. Gabriella union is 46 but her skin and body doesn’t look it

[@CoeFinance]

EVERYTHING ! ! Age is a number, not a look.

[@barakben-amram7950]

this is sooooo underrated, i cant believe you guys have only 400 likes, you actually teaches us to become scientists - which for me at least mean to think of the situation 360" and to adjust it to what we need! obviously making us squidd scientits like daa :p THANKS ALOT!!!!!

[@jonathankim2167]

Thanks for addressing the static stretching in the Vert Code program. I was wondering about that throughout this podcast.

[@uriarefaely8315]

amazing! so much sense.. almost never did stretching before / after exercise. had no effect, but felt bad because people were criticizing me haha... Thank you! and... i have 36" standing vert (40" full approach) with very small range of motion, i thought that was a disadvatage so i was always concerned i wasn't maximizing my potential Thanks again :)

[@LinusLogic]

These podcasts are the best thing you ever did!! Thank you!!

[@laserglider]

So does the “how much stretching do you need” mean if you’re super inflexible you only need to get to “normal” standards of flexibility and not aim to have the flexibility of a dancer ?

[@jadenjackson4078]

I was reading that Harvard had a blog about static stretching before bed and it improved sleep quality which might help

[@88JSmooth]

Static stretching improves flexibility. I am the test subject. After stretching I have increased ability to spread out and recruit my muscles to perform a move. When I wasnt stretching I would feel the strain of doing such moves and less firing of the muscles to perform the move quickly and more powerfully. I agree too much stretching could cause inadvertent muscle lengthening that will actually weaken your overall strength unless you are constantly improving strength throughout the muscle.

[@dangelorussell5329]

Facts bro I can’t run the same without static stretching

[@lombardia1509]

@@dangelorussell5329 do you stretch before or after work out?

[@dangelorussell5329]

@@lombardia1509 this was old, I never do that anymore only dynamic

[@lombardia1509]

@@dangelorussell5329 I think if you want to improve your mobility/flexibility then you should improve your hip, ankle, thoracic mobility and do dynamic stretch before working out and after just cooling down and foam roller. Like the level of stretching that you need you get while you are actually playing the ball and no more needed, but make sure that your hips and ankle allow it. Do you agree with this point?

[@imvanishh9959]

I might have misunderstood, but does what you are saying mean that we should not static stretch? What do we then do instead? For me as an example, whenever I would get a cramp, static stretching always seem to have helped

[@LaurentsPaluoja]

What if you’re hyper-mobile in a muscle/ROM and want to create that stiffness you’re talking about so it translates more into basketball situations? What do you do?

[@rosscreighton1605]

Percussive massage devices like the theragun are all the rage right now. Does percussive therapy have any proven benefits for flexibility or recovery?

[@yoshiSBX]

Planet Of The Squids starring Paul Fabritz as "Squidlord", coming soon. ps. Love the podcast. Especially valuable to me as a massage therapist. I also begin training in strength & conditioning this summer and return to university to study physiotherapy. Look forward to citing and referencing you soon!

[@youngstunna642]

I was hoping y’all would give your opinion on Yoga

[@mattturner1037]

Paul can you give good eccentric exercise examples, for hip flexors? ankles? thats specific for me others might what hamstring, calfs/Achilles?

[@vukasin4574]

I have also really tight ankles and hips and thats maybe the most important

[@thof187]

Someone send this podcast to kneesovertoesguy

[@venezuelansavage]

Thomas Hoffman lol why?

[@nejcrepinc151]

Maybe he is so flexible geneticly.

[@ogfla0824]

@nejc he not, i witnessed him get that flexible

[@thof187]

Jose Serrano Because he preaches “strength through length” and i really want to hear his counter points

[@venezuelansavage]

Thomas Hoffman the kness over toes guys contradicts everything he’s saying pretty much and actually fixing knee pain and structural balance.

[@RHSTRENGTH]

Have you guys looked at the research on static stretching the hip flexors (couch stretch, etc) prior to the vertical jump? This, of course, would be paired with a dynamic warm up. I've seen some really interesting stuff on it and anecdotally speaking, was impressed with the results from it. I'd love to get your take on it.

[@SteliGotGame]

Been waiting for this for a while

[@elementballer24]

Can you reverse being to flexible and will it reduce injuries? Cause I think that's why my vertical dropped

[@ryannoonan5518]

I really don’t understand if I should do eccentric training now. You say that long fibers are less explosive, but then you say that eccentric training lengthens muscle fibers. Also I don’t understand what the length/tension ratio is. Should you try and change it? When I jump my knee angle is very low, I barely bend my knees. Is that good? Is eccentric training basically just for recovery? I did a lot of static stretching and my flexibility improved, I used to be horribly inflexible and now I’m slightly inflexible, still pretty bad though, so should I just stop trying to improve? Even like putting on shoes is difficult if I don’t stretch, so my general movement is compromised if I’m not stretching. Also if I’m doing 2 foot jumps with run up or just 1 foot jumps wouldn’t it be better for me to be more flexible? Sorry I asked so many questions if anyone can answer anything I would appreciate.

[@pcgamerz9271]

From what I got dont do stretching to improve your flexibility and mix in full squats and partial squats I don't know why tho I'm little confused too

[@pcgamerz9271]

Just be flexible enough for ur sport no more needed

[@ryannoonan5518]

PC GAMERZ thanks lol I’m still stretching cuz I’m so inflexible but I got their program anyway so I’m improving my mobility their way too

[@pcgamerz9271]

@@ryannoonan5518 no problem brother

[@danielzastrau4571]

you want to increase your ROM for injury prevention purposes (15:20 full rom eccentrics). But this will change your length-tension relationship (the muscle-length at wich your body is able to produce the greatest tension and therefore power). To get that tipping point back to a range that is usable in sports, you do partials. Wether or not it's good or not depends on how low your knee angle is. Eccentric training has big positives in respect to tendon health and your flexibility (15:20 full rom eccentrics). You kinda should change the modality by wich you improve your flexibility. (relisten to this episode and episode 7) If you are not able to get into the essential positions, then yes. You need to become more flexible. If you can hit the essential positions, then no. More is probably not doing anything. Hope that helped.

[@josephbenuzzi159]

Listen if you static stretch properly it can help but I have done it less because of what you've recommended, one thing to consider is that stiffness is easily built up through hard training so changing length tension relationships doesn't matter IF you know how to go hard in that particular range that will rebuild the stiffness, so I'm saying to still avoid it int he first place, but yes you can rebuild stiffness in like 6-12 weeks

[@josephbenuzzi159]

bodybuilders are stiff from lots of hypertrophy ranges for example so be creative with that

[@HaveFaithWV]

Hey, so I just bought your body weight program and I definitely need to work on my mobility after doing your tests. However, after watching this video I’m a little confused because you say in the program videos that I should do static stretching but in this video you explain that it doesn’t really do much. Is it different because I do need to lengthen certain muscles in order to improve mobility and flexibility?

[@bozdogan_]

İm realy curious about that too i need flexiblity cause i can not get into my sport specific positions but i dont want to lose my explosiveness too what do i do in that situation

[@bozdogan_]

@@theataberk9710 Unfortunately if you stretch and at the end of it if you can get into positions that you can not control and absorb power at, now thats a big problem because thats where injuries arrive. So only stretching is not enough we have to get flexible and at the same time we have to get strong at those new range of motions. The question is how you do both of them at the same time. That requires some knowledge and programming.

[@williamscarcia7903]

Yeah!

[@zenpalmer1340]

Love the content, thank you for posting these! learning a lot from you, would love to see a podcast on how you go about structuring a vert program. Something I’ve been struggling with a lot, i know a lot of the good exercises but im unsure of how to go about structuring a program.

[@SimplePriceExecuting]

your age

[@TheRoadLessChosen]

Deep squat helped bring my knees back.

[@tobya3734]

So what are your thoughts about foam rollers?

[@fatihalpay4903]

Good for soft tissue mobilization

[@TheRoadLessChosen]

What do you think about Wemby and his mobility? I know this old but man it’s interesting. I’m just getting into your podcast stuff and it makes sense. Trying to put weight on my son but don’t want him with knee pain like myself. I follow Kot guy and it’s helped immensely. That being said I found that ecsntric training, like slow leg work helped me warm up and stay stronger quicker.

[@mattturner1037]

Ankle mobility? I definitely don’t but too much for most people more would be better? What are the risk of creating more ankle mobility through loading movement patterns

[@brianbentz9143]

Maybe hurting your head on the rim

[@potts1983]

PJF - With regards to stretching, what would be your advice for adult athletes, 25 years and older, to properly warm-up or stretch to avoid a disastrous achillies tendon tear? Traditional hoop "bro-science" tells us we need to do the two standing wall stretches targeting upper and lower parts of the calve muscle and achillies but it sounds like that thinking might be outdated. Thanks for the amazing pods!

[@allthinngscool5455]

Potts load the tendon and muscle, develop strength in that area, if it can handle the loads of your sport it wont tear lol

[@TheRoadLessChosen]

So would you dynamic stretching before a game or practice? Would you do some centric light workouts?

[@jaimejordan2013]

So after a workout what should you do? Foam roll or what?

[@danielzastrau4571]

He has already talked about it. Just get a general cool down in. Whatever you like. If it is stretching, cool. If it is foam rolling, cool. You may also just lay down and do belly breathing (Pauls preffered option). All we are trying to achieve is to get back into the parasympathetic nervous system. That's basically the system where all of the regen happens.

[@thedunkcamp]

Many NBA players still static stretch during warm-ups of games.....this seems crazy given current research and prevailing belief that static stretching is not ideal to use during a warm-up.

[@cryptogymbro]

What if someone have super tight and low level inflammation in Quad complex, nowhere near touching butt with heels & and slow eccentrics, jumping, deep squats cause knee pain? And long 2-3min 5sets for quads static stretch + small hard as rock MYOFIASCAL ball released pain tremendously until its no more pain anymore, ROM increased knee to butt easy now at cold. True story.

[@bryce8418]

Questions for the Squid Cult! 🦑 I’m currently rehabbing a knee injury (nothing torn just some inflammation in my meniscus). I’ve heard that stretching is helpful but after listening to this podcast I’m second guessing that... so what are some helpful ways to rehab from a knee injury?

[@bwhighflyer1142]

Rest and isometrics

[@DrPunktPhotography]

How do I get back my force/tention relationship as a longetime static stretcher?

[@thof187]

marco messmer In the video he said that even with the eccentric stretches that they always reverted back, so i would guess your best bet is to just not stretch for awhile.

[@DondiWhiteRIP]

Women also suffer more ACL/knee ligament injuries primarily because of the angle of the femur from wider hips to the knee. To say it is because of flexibility solely is incorrect

[@jacksonlawhon8497]

Crazy man this information is free

[@thedude7737]

who will be more athletic. someone who cant touch their toes or pick up their foot from behind them as to do a quad stretch, or someone who can

[@smyrnabeast]

A "Squid Cult" = A "Squad" of Squid\... I'm late to the show but this podcast is fire even almost 2 years later

[@youngstunna642]

Maybe I missed it, but what should I mainly do for recovery? Foam roll?

[@thof187]

youngstunna642 i guess lol, that was what i got from it. he’s basically saying it’s okay to static stretch as long as you realize that it’s not going to lengthen the muscle fibers the way we are doing it, but that we don’t necessarily want to lengthen those fibers anyway.

[@ryannoonan5518]

Thomas Hoffman but how do we increase mobility then? He basically said don’t stretch and you shouldn’t even try to lengthen your muscles so I really don’t get what I should do

[@pcgamerz9271]

See his video on men's health u will get an idea for cooldown

[@youngstunna642]

PC GAMERZ the one released a week ago about James Harden? If not that one pls link it or drop the title name

[@pcgamerz9271]

@@youngstunna642 yes that's right

[@westimportcars]

Thanks

[@dimitriss3635]

i tried your workout in men's health,it was awesome,really challening for the core and i loved the deadlift/squat jumps,even though i ony had access to a regular bar and probably,i went a little too heavy,i squat around 315 and i thought 135 was going to be fine,but i definetily did not jump 13+ inches with that weight,or at least i dont think so ,but overall great full body workout

[@adamespinoza3021]

Can anyone help me I am skinny fat and was wondering should I cut weight and then do the vert code or could I just do the vert code while cutting

[@CB-ns6sy]

You need a base of strength to even start the vert code. Get yourself in good shape then start it. Paul offers bodyweight programs too.

[@gianniskoutsodimos5901]

u do the vert code and u do ''body recomposition'' at the same time.. u can search what this is if u dont know

[@jakedevine6561]

Adam Espinoza I would focus on losing weight before you do any jumping. I think all the strength stuff in the vert code bodyweight would be great for you. But I would skip the plyometrics because if when you’re overweight and do jumping it adds stress to your knees.

[@machiirose]

I'm no expert, but I would recommend doing some moderate cardio and taking unnecessary foods out of your diet

[@kylebunnelle5444]

What are the best methods and modalities to improve handles and shooting and how to incorporate them into your workout

[@baller8184]

Lost mobility in one of my ankles after a sprain, been doing mobility exercises for it ever since it got better

[@agamjyotsingh5259]

Paul, is it possible to be hyper flexible but also be in complete control of how much the muscle is lengthening?

[@lilshuttler]

Then what about gymnasts..they are super flexible , quick and powerful...please anybody help to clear this doubt...

[@topukbookies2784]

Squid farts always go up and never come down...

[@zacharykam5161]

You say that stretching before working out is bad because it reduces performance. But that's on an acute level. What do you have to say about the studies that have shown that stretching before weight lifting increases the number of sarcomeres in the muscles themselves? Then it's not a problem of moving past an "optimal range" like you say because the sarcomeres are not stretched, there's just more of them in the muscles.

[@KingYenny]

Aye Pj, i got plantar fasciitis and a year before i had a Patella issue. From building muscle and light static stretching i got healthy. For my plantar fasciitis all the doctor and phyical therapist is telling me is to stretch strengthen and ice. Whats the best way to get rid of plantar fasciitis?

[@carloslpzcover7066]

Doing eccentric full range changes your strech reflex into a lower position... is this a good reason for skipping the eccentric block ni the triphasic method? Love your podcast. Greetings from Spain.

[@jl9737]

What happend to speed round? 👾

[@matthewmateri4377]

Love the podcast! Have you done research with the beach volleyball approach jump. I have been working on it for years and still struggle to get out of the sand explosively.

[@raptormoments]

would you consider internal hip rotation flexibility?

[@markopetrovikk]

So we should only do a dynamic warm up before games?

[@arshhash210]

5:06 7:01 15:20 29:41 44:55

[@matteogiuspoli8487]

I'd like to try the first month of Vert Code Elite... somebody can tell me how much the weight room is required FOR THE FIRST PHASE? Because my gym will be close for the next weeks... I don't know if I can do the base thing without weights.

[@jigjug2708]

Hey coach, I've been wondering, if static stretching does in fact hinder performance, do massages also have the same effect?

[@Hoop639]

Hey, man appreciate all of your content! I got a quick question. I've been training for hypertrophy for a few years and added a lot of size, but not thing crazy. I want to start diving into sports science and start training that way but I want to maintain my gainz. Maintenance volume for my legs are 6 sets of full range for quads and hamstrings. Lets say i always did that to maintain my gainz and then started the progression of training for basketball? Would that really hinder much progress? I understand specificity is the #1 principle.

[@bryandematos3835]

I don’t understand , can someone explain me ? If i am unflexible in a muscle or a joint , will I do static strech or not or other strech ? (My english is pretty bad sorry )

[@HoopCreations616]

My quads are lagging. Will they catch up from the program or should I start some isolation movements

[@davispodeszwa6972]

Would love to hear your take on nutrition in future pods :) Thx for the great info!

[@crashmonkeyz]

Cant wait to bring my son to you.

[@laserglider]

Btw James Harden hit a split when the Nigerian crossed him in the Olympics that was the last time we saw him try to play defense

[@vasilibrinkmann2056]

oh, is that the last time we saw him try to play defense?

[@xaverrussel491]

I am 17, I want to get taller by practice dunk, please give me suggestion

[@Amare1Knicks]

Hip abductor workouts at red lights

[@msuarez8083]

so basically static strech doesn't do anything to your muscles?

[@jesseiloreta4570]

full authors name for researcher talking about stretching for 30mins?

[@paulkimi9032]

BALLOON!!! 🎈

[@jesusruacho2001]

A tight muscle is usually a weak muscle. Keep that in mind

[@morrisreed9824]

A tight muscle is usually a strong muscle , a lengthened muscle is usually a weak muscle.

[@ItsNoRandom]

The answer is stairs and ik that without looking it up

[@pcgamerz9271]

Can some one send me first phase of vert code need to build my base will give athlean x training system in return thanks

[@ariescandon504]

Are Nordic hamstring curls ok once a week?

[@RandallTwins]

Major keys 🔑

[@noahclaes22]

how much flexiblility do you need for badminton?

[@pcgamerz9271]

I play badminton too

[@ilyanamini9428]

When u will upload next video?

[@endistherenown776]

Thinking about buying it can someone with experience tell me a little about it. How much could I gain? (I can dunk rn) Is it better to buy the monthly or one time fee?

[@danielzastrau4571]

It's 12 phases, if you plan on doing all of them, the lifetime option will safe you money. In regards of how much you will gain. Nobody can say that. Depends on too many variables. It's safe to say that you will jump higher afterwards.(judging by my own experience with the program and the testimonials) But wether it'll be 4 inches or 8 is kinda unpredictable.

[@endistherenown776]

@@danielzastrau4571thank you for respondng

[@21Lauiiiiiiiiii]

So i really wasted 30minutes a day stretching for the last 4 years !?But I guess its true. I nearly made any progress with it and don't see any gains from it in my game

[@AmitKumar-bg8ul]

What goes up never come down is someone's height 💯

[@curry-hk9zm]

It's also someone's age!

[@dangelorussell5329]

Nope u actually shrink over time

[@TheAthleteClub]

Great stuff - Can you Do a podcast on dunking as a “heavy” player I’m 6’8 250+ and bodyfat around 12% - I feel really heavy on the court, I can dunk in Lay up Line but for some reason I feel heavy in the game and can’t jump that high in game Is it a conditioning problem or What is it?

[@MichaelDshark]

McChriis You sound muscle dominant / quad dominant you should start training fascia to become glute dominant

[@TheAthleteClub]

MichaelDShark How brotha?

[@MichaelDshark]

McChriis Check out Chong xie on KZbin . I can help you out as well if you want ?

[@bozdogan_]

What i understand is you get majority of your jumping power from your muscles and they need time to create that power plus your muscle fibers can be slow twich so they are contracting slowly. Your tendons are not much springy too. So what you should do is: 1- Train your muscles to have explosiveness train your muscle's rate of force development. 2- Train your tendons to absorb the power and imidiately spring it back.

[@TheAthleteClub]

KJCrossover All right bruh - that sounds like your are right 1: I will go work on that ASAP !🔥 2: I Do not know How to train This - any tips or exercises?

[@dracomadeit]

Age

[@lanasiadrain1249]

What about if u have knee aches

[@EVERYTHING-dc2od]

Lanasia Drain you probably got jumpers knee. MAYBE if it constantly hurts when you jump. Even if you don’t have jumpers knee and just normal knee pain try icing them

[@pierre2324]

Sadly for environment water level doesnt go down

[@wolfgangchopin9859]

Hot air goes up and doesn’t come down

[@davidamaeze8141]

height never goes down

[@williamscarcia7903]

Yes it does. You shrink as you get older

[@1footdisciple]

So are we just supposed to believe the stuff you say because like you said you always have to be skeptical

[@jakedevine6561]

Finn Addy There’s a difference between trusting what people say and trusting science based professionals. Paul backs his opinions on science. Click all the resources in the description and you’ll see how much science is on this topic.

[@xaverrussel491]

Can Basketball making taller

[@keepgrinding9650]

I thought for sure Paul’s animal would be a cheetah🐆

[@cooldrummerjack4188]

Age goes up but not down

[@vasilibrinkmann2056]

What goes up but never comes down: "Murphy Lee & the St. Lunatics" kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYvCo4uma9OMgbM

[@OvaChicken]

Squidwards and Upwards !!

[@nickfeds9956]

Heat?

[@evanbrodtmann5761]

I guessed age immediately

[@SimplePriceExecuting]

what goes up but never comes down

[@jakedevine6561]

carlos castro basketball I’m still trying to figure it out lol

[@jalenkirk3633]

Your age

[@honeyfro2615]

My dick. Disappointed in yall. That was an easy one, but didnt see it anywhere in the comments lmao.

[@evanwilliams8033]

Ur age goes up and doesn’t come down