071 - Air-to-Air Mission Planning

Employing an air-to-air missile beyond visual range is not simply a matter of detecting the target and pulling the trigger, a host of factors demand consideration. What is the threat and what kinds of missiles does it employ? From what speed and altitude? With this in mind we can plan to employ so that our missile hits the threat before the threat's missile hits us. Knowing that drives when to shoot, and thus before that when to lock the threat, and before that...
This air-to-air mission planning results in chronological timelines that fighter aircrews must employ in demanding, chaotic, and ever-changing aerial engagements. On this episode, retired U.S. Navy Commander and former TOPGUN Instructor Guy "Bus" Snodgrass joins us to describe the many considerations and calculations needed to plan a winning air-to-air timeline.
Bus is an accomplished author, check out his first book on his experiences as speech writer for former Secretary of Defense James Mattis here:
www.amazon.com...
And please visit this episode's sponsor, SimpliSafe here:
simplisafe.com...
Episode artwork by Jaime Lopez; bumper music by Jaime Lopez / announcements by Clint Bell. This episode was produced by our friends at The MuscleCar Place Podcast Network.

[@ShamuXEagleDriver]

Another great discussion. In my Eagle experience the most fun and challenging air-to-air timeline/tactic was the Short Commit. This typically started cold to the threat, inside normal commit ranges, but outside the adversary WEZ by a bit. Upon turning hot, the ability to rapidly conduct disciplined short commit formation, radar and weapons employment, plus aggressive self-defense were even more essential. IMHO more LFE mission success was generated in that follow-on arena than from the initial long range BVR push.

[@HabitualButtonPusher]

I work in the Risk Management field and I LOVED this episode. Talking with clients about pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages, exploiting others strengths and weaknesses as well as competitors exploiting your strengths and weaknesses.....this episode should be titled Doctrine for Living Life. Just explaining contingencies, having a plan, having a back up plan. Simply outstanding.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thank you very much!

[@michaeljohn8905]

This is such a good show thank you for posting this. I feel like our aviation community is so small that we don’t get enough of quality programming like this. Thank you boys much appreciated. Michael M.

[@LRRPFco52]

I'm loving this discussion and the way you guys handle it. Listening and reading other former TOPGUN Instructors dating back to the early 1970s in the F-8, F-4, and early F-14, it was interesting to hear them talk about how much of the course (even in the F-8 Crusader College) was primarily focused on managing the BVR timelines and WEZ, as opposed to WVR/BFM. USAF FWS for fighters is the same way.

[@mariusfrost640]

I agree that Top Gun instructors should get involved in other stuff. I'd pay vast sums to have them teach my boss what leadership is.

[@Anderson_Hwang]

Very informative, loved it. I would love to see Lt.Cmdr Michael "Mob" Tremor on this show to talk about how he shot down a Syrian SU-22 in his F/A-18E Super Hornet. It would be interesting to learn what was on his mind, and how he made the decisions.

[@SimDeck]

Superb episode. Fascinating subject and put across so well. Would love to see you do a video on BFM.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Sim Deck Jell-O and I discussed just that! -Boat

[@LRRPFco52]

Regarding AWACS and the F-22 or 5th Gen: "The original APG-77 could generate 31 cm resolution radar images in UHR mode for target recognition in excess of 161 km. Allowing it to do feats like this: With its high-resolution radar, theF-22 can guarantee target altitudes to within a couple of hundred feet. Its ability to identify an aircraft is “sometimes many times quicker than the AWACS,” he says." “If an AWACS sees a heavy group 40 mi. to the north, Raptor can come up and say it’s two F-18s, two F-15s and four F-16s.” Source: Aviation Week, Jan. 2007

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

LRRPFco52 the constant leaps in computing power make things once thought impossible, possible. I would add that an AWACS radar and a F-22 radar are designed to do many different things, so in the Aviation Week example, the AWACS will see a traditional threat at potentially far greater distances than a fighter radar (look at the size of that disc!), but with less resolution, and therefore, no ability to target a weapon at it. Whereas the F-22 may not be able to see as far, it can break out a threat group like the example states. Technology can do some amazing things...just wait until you hear the F-35 episode!

[@LRRPFco52]

@@FighterPilotPodcast I'm looking very forward to it, and I've been studying F-35 capes for the past 4 years or more. As as a kid, I unknowingly devoured my dad's West German/NATO Aero E course material with more vigor and intensity than anything I was doing in school. He spent most of his career at Edwards, with a scientific exchange to W Germany working with them on what would become the Eurofighter. They had him concurrently take their NATO Aero E course, which is where all that material came from. It covered everything from airframes to propulsion, radars, weapons interface, E&E, all avionics, etc. As I've been studying F-35, it is against that detailed familiarity with 4th Gen systems. The geopolitical consequences the F-35 is already having are really interesting, and unprecedented.

[@rickvanhulst]

Was really looking forward to this one!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Hope we don't disappoint!

[@rickvanhulst]

@@FighterPilotPodcast you ceratinly did not disappoint!

[@christianarboleda7872]

You should do a podcast on SAM evasion

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

It's on the list. Hoping to find a guest who can speak from personal experience.

[@Motorman2112]

@@FighterPilotPodcast It would be awesome if you could get Emmett "ET" Tullia, the guy from the 1991 F-16 video.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@Motorman2112 Any idea how to find him?

[@jeffreyohara8967]

You could just weave it into other podcasts. Heh.

[@BOGOWA22]

@@FighterPilotPodcast or Dan "Two Dogs" Hampton. He is a F16CJ SEAD specialist & author of book "Viper Pilot." He has a Facebook page. Much thanks!

[@RKW1138]

I'll condense this 1hr 20min briefing down to 7 words. "Fail to prepare, then prepare to fail".

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

As a mantra, sure, but that doesn't give you the specific ranges needed to execute.

[@slow5x5]

And Another Great Podcast!!!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks!

[@LRRPFco52]

Jell-O: Looking back to my experience in several Scout Sniper Platoons, the Sniper Section Leaders or Squad Leaders and Recon Team Leaders would often snap-quiz on-the-spot our new shooters/Scout Observers on any myriad of the technical aspects of our jobs. This could include specific angular measurements of certain targets, our drop data on the M118 ammunition, 9-Line MEDEVAC or CAS formats, reporting formats, and especially during mission planning, everything was memorized and quizzed. Did your more senior Squadron members do this same type of thing with new squadron mates on their BVR timelines, threat profiles, comms, contingency planning, emergency procedures, etc.?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

LRRPFco52 in the USAF we would do standardized weapons testing, as well as be asked questions during our annual ground evaluations...this is in addition to regular briefing/debrief questions that are mission/sortie specific and weekly weapons and intel academics to hear about the latest and greatest out there. Each unit has their own process, but the common theme is that learning is a continual process, whatever form it comes in, and must be consistently accomplished. -Boat

[@LRRPFco52]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Did you have workstations with relevant cockpit interface for practicing BVR timelines and weapons employment, or did all that have to be done in sims?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

LRRPFco52 computer modeling, like was referred to in the podcast, is more for weapons employment and tactics analysis more so than practicing timeline adherence. There are a few different ways to draw out the long range intercept timelines just using black/chalk, white/dry erase boards and/or graph paper when you use standard assumptions...there are many late nights and weekends literally spent practicing drawing and talking through engagement timelines by upgrading wingman, flight/section leads and instructors, which is the easiest and most accessible way to practice getting a 2-4 ship through the timeline. - Boat

[@yxeaviationphotog]

Interesting episode! I was wondering if you've had any thoughts on doing an episode on the cycle of an airwing. From coming home from a deployment, training in between, workups, CQ, etc., to going back to the boat. Thanks! Or a talk on adversary/aggressor units and how pilots end up at those units.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Colin Kunkel great ideas, we’ll see what we can do!

[@hockey3761]

Amazing podcast!!!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks!

[@troyt6864]

Is it possible for an interview with air force fighter pilot? Wanted to know about the f-15x and why the recent mission to reproduce New f-15's?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

son of StormShadow keep an ear out...it’s on the horizon!

[@BSG11]

The Meteor has a ramjet, it's worth noting that while it can be throttled, it is a very different type of engine from turbofan engines used in aircraft.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

BSG11 we discussed the engine differences a bit on the J-39 episode, but we’ll try to reattack.

[@jeffreyohara8967]

One interesting element which I didn't hear much of was mission planning coordination with the AEA cell. For example, on an OCA sweep or a mission targeting a HVAA (say, an AEW asset), you'd need to walk down to the Growler guys and chat about vul times and planning for coverage for you as protected assets while you went after that enemy target. I wouldn't go into more detail than that in very general terms, but planning routes and timelines while considering such support by those teammates helps preserve you in a threat environment. Very nice piece. How you did it without the near-mandatory mention of an OODA loop shows restraint. V/rSpam

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks, Spam. There are certainly many directions we could have taken the discussion. We wanted to stick with the considerations involved in building a pure employment timeline for an A/A engagement.

[@jeffreyohara8967]

Sure thing, fair enough. Safer also (grin). Very nice - I just subscribed BTW. Wondering if you have any cockpit or human factors/PVI podcasts (kinda my area). V/r, Spam

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@jeffreyohara8967 Not specifically. During our 'aircraft series' episodes I try to ask about cockpit ergonomics.

[@manizaeim]

Wow, was so madly looking forward to it

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Did we deliver?

[@manizaeim]

@@FighterPilotPodcast absolutely sir. Awesome one

[@mobiuszero1018]

Another job well done,what else can I say? But,is there going to be an equivalent episode on air-to-ground planning/Coordinating with allies,etc.?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

That would have been the Forward Air Controllers and ANGLICO episodes.

[@Waltham1892]

The most important variable in Air Force tactical planning is what time the O-Club opens.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

😳

[@flywithpapa9430]

Given threat type, missile type, altitude and speed how would one determine experimentally the minimum "safe" range (I presume that is the MAR) within a simulation like DCS? Is that the range at which doing lets say a Split-S is not enough to defeat the missile and you are essentially forced to notch meaning a Launch-and-Leave tactic within this range is not an option anymore?

[@dundun92]

Yes, thats exactly it. Experimenting is best done with another player, manipulating the AI to abort when you want it to is tricky in my experience.

[@skateforevermarcus]

Nice

[@renecornejo6992]

You should do an episode of the men and women on the other side of the radio (AIC). Let me know if you are interested by replying to this post. Thanks man.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Rene Cornejo we did cover airborne controllers on episode 31, check it out!

[@IWSFODD]

About time that we get an Air Force personnel in here to push for an Air Force jet. Hoping for an Eagle episode soon, and it better be even more explosive than the Cat episode. Here is a patch for that episode thumbnail : imgur.com/mZXwipJ

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

F-15 episodes are coming, just waiting for Strike Eagle guests to follow it up.

[@IWSFODD]

@@FighterPilotPodcast So we are going to have 2 seperate episode, one for the Eagle and one for the Mudhen? Damn i'm beyond excited!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@IWSFODD Not only that but in the spirit of "Bomber Month," we may have F-15 month!

[@mobiuszero1018]

1:17:00-1:17:30 So being a Fighter pilot is never a static position..it's always in flux/evolving...I wonder how things will be when UCAVs come into the mix fully.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Only time will tell.

[@waynegriswold8953]

an Eagle is sooo much faster than an bug and even da rhino! talk aboot the long bomb, eagle pilot can throw the long bomb at mach 2 plus?

[@Planehazza]

In a comfy seat and pop corn at the ready.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Hit it!

[@Planehazza]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Don't you mean "press"? :D

[@leonlobos9718]

Why query CIA versus DIA?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Leon Lobos we work with all of the various agencies to cover the gamut of intelligence and knowledge requirements, we just didn’t mention it in the episode.

[@ewenriordan6614]

Sounds like maybe a 117!?!?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

🤔

[@ewenriordan6614]

“Sneak” a F-117 out of skunk works 🥺